Discussion:
Tranzrailphotographers yahoo group
(too old to reply)
starwars
2003-07-23 00:30:35 UTC
Permalink
The group is named "Tranzrailphotographers" and is described on the Home Page
as a "friendly group" but this seems to be a misnomer and is far from the truth.
Instead the message area often seems to be dominated by "turf wars".

The current list manager is a Christine Johnson who prefers to use the masculine
Chris. Sadly a lot of her comments on the group about other posters are often
a combination of condescension and belittlement, and are laced with an undertone
of bitterness and snide inferences. Overall she comes across as being somewhat
arrogant, dismissive, immature selfish, and a user.

Chris displays a high level of intolerance of other viewpoints where usually
the end result is that she often makes derisory personal attacks on other posters
or abuses her position to silence them. Unless your posts meet a politically
correct sanitised profile that supports her buddies then you are at risk of
losing your membership and access to the group. In fact it seems like the site
is more of a mouthpiece for militant unionists and an elitist clique of preservation
group members rather than representing or discussing photography and photographers.


People who post links to other non-commercial sites offering information, news,
pictures or specialist information that may be of interest to members of the
group can be accused of advertising or are labelled as being competition, yet
there are no problems when it comes to excursions or preservation groups advertising
their wares. She only seems to be interested in her group (and elitist cliquists)
and how many members she has, rather than showing an interest in the groups
members themselves, and allowing them to access some excellent resources on
rail. In fact she threatens other people who operate other sites and tries
to tell them what they are and aren't allowed to have or discuss on their sites.

Photographers who submit photos rarely receive much notice and usually no thanks
in recognition of their efforts in contributing and sharing their photos.
In fact some photographers are actually put off and made to feel that they
are creating a burden by submitting their pictures due to the poor management
processes and lack of commitment in transferring photos to a separate photos
website.

Her behaviour and actions in recent times lack any form of professionalism,
show distinct bias, and risk bringing the rail community into disrepute. She
personally describes herself as being "chaotic" and a "very sensitive person
who suffers from a mood disorder". I have noticed that there are two other
people who handle some of the administration of the site and think that the
site management should be handed over to one of them as they seem to have a
level of maturity that is sadly lacking with Chris.

It would be my assessment that if it is intended to carry on the group as it
is it really should be renamed to something more apllicable like tranzrailchat
and a separate specialist rail photography group started up. The sooner changes
are implemented the better for the whole rail community.

This message has had to be posted here as the group does not provide a forum
for free discussion and if it was posted on group it would probably be deleted
or result in a membership being terminated.
PT
2003-07-23 03:37:49 UTC
Permalink
So what! It is her group and as the owner she can do what she like with it.

If you don't like it, go and start your own yahoo group and run it the way
that YOU want.
Post by starwars
The group is named "Tranzrailphotographers" and is described on the Home Page
as a "friendly group" but this seems to be a misnomer and is far from the truth.
Instead the message area often seems to be dominated by "turf wars".
The current list manager is a Christine Johnson who prefers to use the masculine
Chris. Sadly a lot of her comments on the group about other posters are often
a combination of condescension and belittlement, and are laced with an undertone
of bitterness and snide inferences. Overall she comes across as being somewhat
arrogant, dismissive, immature selfish, and a user.
Chris displays a high level of intolerance of other viewpoints where usually
the end result is that she often makes derisory personal attacks on other posters
or abuses her position to silence them. Unless your posts meet a politically
correct sanitised profile that supports her buddies then you are at risk of
losing your membership and access to the group. In fact it seems like the site
is more of a mouthpiece for militant unionists and an elitist clique of preservation
group members rather than representing or discussing photography and photographers.
People who post links to other non-commercial sites offering information, news,
pictures or specialist information that may be of interest to members of the
group can be accused of advertising or are labelled as being competition, yet
there are no problems when it comes to excursions or preservation groups advertising
their wares. She only seems to be interested in her group (and elitist cliquists)
and how many members she has, rather than showing an interest in the groups
members themselves, and allowing them to access some excellent resources on
rail. In fact she threatens other people who operate other sites and tries
to tell them what they are and aren't allowed to have or discuss on their sites.
Photographers who submit photos rarely receive much notice and usually no thanks
in recognition of their efforts in contributing and sharing their photos.
In fact some photographers are actually put off and made to feel that they
are creating a burden by submitting their pictures due to the poor management
processes and lack of commitment in transferring photos to a separate photos
website.
Her behaviour and actions in recent times lack any form of
professionalism,
Post by starwars
show distinct bias, and risk bringing the rail community into disrepute. She
personally describes herself as being "chaotic" and a "very sensitive person
who suffers from a mood disorder". I have noticed that there are two other
people who handle some of the administration of the site and think that the
site management should be handed over to one of them as they seem to have a
level of maturity that is sadly lacking with Chris.
It would be my assessment that if it is intended to carry on the group as it
is it really should be renamed to something more apllicable like tranzrailchat
and a separate specialist rail photography group started up. The sooner changes
are implemented the better for the whole rail community.
This message has had to be posted here as the group does not provide a forum
for free discussion and if it was posted on group it would probably be deleted
or result in a membership being terminated.
Redbaiter
2003-07-23 10:57:23 UTC
Permalink
say no to bullies says...
Post by PT
So what! It is her group and as the owner she can do what she like with
it.
Post by PT
If you don't like it, go and start your own yahoo group and run it the way
that YOU want.
So you support the practices and actions of what appears to be a case of
bullying?
Say NO to bullies!
Do you always rush to judgement after hearing only one side of a
story? This could be, for all you know, a pack of utter lies.

If you were a judge I would hate to be a defendant in your court.
You sound to me like an irrational bully.
--
Redbaiter
In the leftist's lexicon, the lowest of the low
say no to bullies
2003-07-23 11:43:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Redbaiter
say no to bullies says...
Post by PT
So what! It is her group and as the owner she can do what she like with
it.
Post by PT
If you don't like it, go and start your own yahoo group and run it the way
that YOU want.
So you support the practices and actions of what appears to be a case of
bullying?
Say NO to bullies!
Do you always rush to judgement after hearing only one side of a
story? This could be, for all you know, a pack of utter lies.
If you were a judge I would hate to be a defendant in your court.
You sound to me like an irrational bully.
You will note it said "what appears to be a case of bullying".

The posters response was that "she can do what she like with it" so in the
event the description accurately portrayed the case it would mean that they
were supporting a behaviour pattern that fits the description of bullying.

To bully is to
"discourage or frighten with threats or a domineering manner; intimidate"
"to treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
From Claire: Whatever you do - TELL SOMEONE! Make people listen to you and
don't take no for an answer. Make a logbook of bullying incidents to use as
evidence if need be. You have the right to live without fear. Don't think
that you're being a "grass" - why should you do a bully a favour by keeping
quiet? Bullying thrives on silence and secrecy. It's difficult but do try
to make yourself look brave if something happens, even though you're quaking
in your boots. Another thing to bear in mind is that bullying is
surprisingly impersonal! A lot of bullies have traumatic personal lives and
pick on victims because they want to make themselves feel "big" and often
randomly select someone often for the most trivial of reasons. Lastly, it
isn't your fault. Stay safe and good luck
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
From Lucie: The most important thing is to tell someone. It may not be that
easy, I know I have been there ! But from my experience I have learned that
you can't just sit around and wait for it to stop. You have to do something.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Say NO to bullies!
RK
2003-07-23 20:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by say no to bullies
Post by Redbaiter
say no to bullies says...
Post by PT
So what! It is her group and as the owner she can do what she like
with
Post by Redbaiter
it.
Post by PT
If you don't like it, go and start your own yahoo group and run it
the
Post by say no to bullies
way
Post by Redbaiter
Post by PT
that YOU want.
So you support the practices and actions of what appears to be a case of
bullying?
Say NO to bullies!
Do you always rush to judgement after hearing only one side of a
story? This could be, for all you know, a pack of utter lies.
If you were a judge I would hate to be a defendant in your court.
You sound to me like an irrational bully.
You will note it said "what appears to be a case of bullying".
The posters response was that "she can do what she like with it" so in the
event the description accurately portrayed the case it would mean that they
were supporting a behaviour pattern that fits the description of bullying.
To bully is to
"discourage or frighten with threats or a domineering manner; intimidate"
"to treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner"
..........In a situation where the victim cannot escape this behaviour???

If you choose to go to that group - and have the choice to leave it - then
surely any "suffering" or "bullying" against you is something you are in
control of?
say no to bullies
2003-07-23 23:07:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by RK
Post by say no to bullies
Post by Redbaiter
say no to bullies says...
Post by PT
So what! It is her group and as the owner she can do what she like
with
Post by Redbaiter
it.
Post by PT
If you don't like it, go and start your own yahoo group and run it
the
Post by say no to bullies
way
Post by Redbaiter
Post by PT
that YOU want.
So you support the practices and actions of what appears to be a
case
Post by RK
of
Post by say no to bullies
Post by Redbaiter
bullying?
Say NO to bullies!
Do you always rush to judgement after hearing only one side of a
story? This could be, for all you know, a pack of utter lies.
If you were a judge I would hate to be a defendant in your court.
You sound to me like an irrational bully.
You will note it said "what appears to be a case of bullying".
The posters response was that "she can do what she like with it" so in the
event the description accurately portrayed the case it would mean that
they
Post by say no to bullies
were supporting a behaviour pattern that fits the description of bullying.
To bully is to
"discourage or frighten with threats or a domineering manner; intimidate"
"to treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner"
..........In a situation where the victim cannot escape this behaviour???
If you choose to go to that group - and have the choice to leave it - then
surely any "suffering" or "bullying" against you is something you are in
control of?
+++ Why?

"Do not resign or seek a transfer, partly because you will be giving the
bully a victory, which increases his or her feelings of power, which
encourages him or her to further acts of bullying. Also why should you allow
people such as these to drive you out of a job or position you enjoy?"

+++ What is bullying?

"Bullies have always existed. They occur at work, at school, in the home and
in the community, in fact anywhere where one person has power over another.
Although there are many different definitions of bullying, all of them
contain the element of power in one form or another."

"Constant nit-picking, fault-finding and criticism of a trivial nature - the
triviality, regularity and frequency betray bullying; often there is a grain
of truth (but only a grain) in the criticism to fool you into believing the
criticism has validity, which it does not; often, the criticism is based on
distortion, misrepresentation or fabrication
simultaneous with the criticism, a constant refusal to acknowledge you and
your contributions and achievements or to recognise your existence and
value.

Constant attempts to undermine you and your position, status, worth, value
and potential.

Where you are in a group (eg at work), being singled out and treated
differently; for instance, everyone else can get away with murder but the
moment you put a foot wrong - however trivial - action is taken against you.

Being isolated and separated from colleagues, excluded from what's going on,
marginalised, overruled, ignored, sidelined, frozen out, sent to Coventry

Being belittled, demeaned and patronised, especially in front of others

Being humiliated, shouted at and threatened, often in front of others"

+++ What are some likely characteristics of a bully?

"Jekyll & Hyde nature - vicious and vindictive in private, but innocent and
charming in front of witnesses; no-one can (or wants to) believe this
individual has a vindictive nature - only the current target sees both
sides.
Is a convincing, compulsive liar and when called to account, will make up
anything spontaneously to fit their needs at that moment.
Uses lots of charm and is always plausible and convincing when peers,
superiors or others are present; the motive of the charm is deception and
its purpose is to compensate for lack of empathy relies on mimicry to
convince others that they are a "normal" human being but their words,
writing and deeds are hollow, superficial and glib displays a great deal of
certitude and self-assuredness to mask their insecurity."

"Exhibits much controlling behaviour and is a control freak.
Displays a compulsive need to criticise whilst simultaneously refusing to
acknowledge, value and praise others.
When called upon to share or address the needs and concerns of others,
responds with impatience, irritability and aggression.
Often has an overwhelming, unhealthy and narcissistic need to portray
themselves as a wonderful, kind, caring and compassionate person, in
contrast to their behaviour and treatment of others; the bully is oblivious
to the discrepancy between how they like to be seen (and believe they are
seen), and how they are actually seen.
Has an overbearing belief in their qualities of leadership but cannot
distinguish between leadership (maturity, decisiveness, assertiveness, trust
and integrity) and bullying (immaturity, impulsiveness, aggression, distrust
and deceitfulness)."

+++ Useful resources

http://www.helpline4u.co.uk/bully.htm
http://www.femail.com.au/workplacebullying.htm
http://www.femail.com.au/workplacebullying2.htm

STAND FIRM AND DON'T LET YOURSELF BE A VICTIM

Say NO to bullies!
Patrick Dunford
2003-07-23 23:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by starwars
Post by starwars
The group is named "Tranzrailphotographers" and is described on the Home
Page
Post by starwars
as a "friendly group" but this seems to be a misnomer and is far from the
truth.
Post by starwars
Instead the message area often seems to be dominated by "turf wars".
The current list manager is a Christine Johnson who prefers to use the
masculine
Post by starwars
Chris. Sadly a lot of her comments on the group about other posters are
often
Post by starwars
a combination of condescension and belittlement, and are laced with an
undertone
Post by starwars
of bitterness and snide inferences. Overall she comes across as being
somewhat
Post by starwars
arrogant, dismissive, immature selfish, and a user.
Chris displays a high level of intolerance of other viewpoints where
usually
Post by starwars
the end result is that she often makes derisory personal attacks on other
posters
Post by starwars
or abuses her position to silence them. Unless your posts meet a
politically
Post by starwars
correct sanitised profile that supports her buddies then you are at risk
of
Post by starwars
losing your membership and access to the group. In fact it seems like the
site
Post by starwars
is more of a mouthpiece for militant unionists and an elitist clique of
preservation
Post by starwars
group members rather than representing or discussing photography and
photographers.
Post by starwars
People who post links to other non-commercial sites offering information,
news,
Post by starwars
pictures or specialist information that may be of interest to members of
the
Post by starwars
group can be accused of advertising or are labelled as being competition,
yet
Post by starwars
there are no problems when it comes to excursions or preservation groups
advertising
Post by starwars
their wares. She only seems to be interested in her group (and elitist
cliquists)
Post by starwars
and how many members she has, rather than showing an interest in the
groups
Post by starwars
members themselves, and allowing them to access some excellent resources
on
Post by starwars
rail. In fact she threatens other people who operate other sites and tries
to tell them what they are and aren't allowed to have or discuss on their
sites.
Post by starwars
Photographers who submit photos rarely receive much notice and usually no
thanks
Post by starwars
in recognition of their efforts in contributing and sharing their photos.
In fact some photographers are actually put off and made to feel that they
are creating a burden by submitting their pictures due to the poor
management
Post by starwars
processes and lack of commitment in transferring photos to a separate
photos
Post by starwars
website.
Her behaviour and actions in recent times lack any form of
professionalism,
Post by starwars
show distinct bias, and risk bringing the rail community into disrepute.
She
Post by starwars
personally describes herself as being "chaotic" and a "very sensitive
person
Post by starwars
who suffers from a mood disorder". I have noticed that there are two
other
Post by starwars
people who handle some of the administration of the site and think that
the
Post by starwars
site management should be handed over to one of them as they seem to have
a
Post by starwars
level of maturity that is sadly lacking with Chris.
It would be my assessment that if it is intended to carry on the group as
it
Post by starwars
is it really should be renamed to something more apllicable like
tranzrailchat
Post by starwars
and a separate specialist rail photography group started up. The sooner
changes
Post by starwars
are implemented the better for the whole rail community.
This message has had to be posted here as the group does not provide a
forum
Post by starwars
for free discussion and if it was posted on group it would probably be
deleted
Post by starwars
or result in a membership being terminated.
Is that you Joe?

Sorry buddy but you are a member of the group. The moderators say how
the group is run. Most people are not interested in the politics. They
just want to see a forum and the group provides them with that forum.

I'd be talking to Fred G if you don't like some parts of the group but
my perspective is that you seem to want to go out of your way to do
your own thing. That's not how most groups are operated. They operate
as a type of collective just like most societies or organisations
operate because that's what works.

The problem that strikes me over and over is that you want to do your
own thing. Are you a member of any railway heritage society in New
Zealand? Do you muck in and get your hands dirty? I did and that's
earned me some respect. I don't see eye to eye with the moderators on
every single thing but that's life.

If you want to do your own thing, do it but don't come in here
whinging when it doesn't work out or no one takes your side.

The email address above is invalid and will bounce. Replies can be
posted to this group or to me personally using my email address in
TRP, accessible to all members of the group.
Patrick Dunford
2003-07-25 12:02:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by starwars
Post by starwars
The group is named "Tranzrailphotographers" and is described on the Home
Page
Post by starwars
as a "friendly group" but this seems to be a misnomer and is far from the
truth.
Post by starwars
Instead the message area often seems to be dominated by "turf wars".
The current list manager is a Christine Johnson who prefers to use the
masculine
Post by starwars
Chris. Sadly a lot of her comments on the group about other posters are
often
Post by starwars
a combination of condescension and belittlement, and are laced with an
undertone
Post by starwars
of bitterness and snide inferences. Overall she comes across as being
somewhat
Post by starwars
arrogant, dismissive, immature selfish, and a user.
Chris displays a high level of intolerance of other viewpoints where
usually
Post by starwars
the end result is that she often makes derisory personal attacks on other
posters
Post by starwars
or abuses her position to silence them. Unless your posts meet a
politically
Post by starwars
correct sanitised profile that supports her buddies then you are at risk
of
Post by starwars
losing your membership and access to the group. In fact it seems like the
site
Post by starwars
is more of a mouthpiece for militant unionists and an elitist clique of
preservation
Post by starwars
group members rather than representing or discussing photography and
photographers.
Post by starwars
People who post links to other non-commercial sites offering information,
news,
Post by starwars
pictures or specialist information that may be of interest to members of
the
Post by starwars
group can be accused of advertising or are labelled as being competition,
yet
Post by starwars
there are no problems when it comes to excursions or preservation groups
advertising
Post by starwars
their wares. She only seems to be interested in her group (and elitist
cliquists)
Post by starwars
and how many members she has, rather than showing an interest in the
groups
Post by starwars
members themselves, and allowing them to access some excellent resources
on
Post by starwars
rail. In fact she threatens other people who operate other sites and tries
to tell them what they are and aren't allowed to have or discuss on their
sites.
Post by starwars
Photographers who submit photos rarely receive much notice and usually no
thanks
Post by starwars
in recognition of their efforts in contributing and sharing their photos.
In fact some photographers are actually put off and made to feel that they
are creating a burden by submitting their pictures due to the poor
management
Post by starwars
processes and lack of commitment in transferring photos to a separate
photos
Post by starwars
website.
Her behaviour and actions in recent times lack any form of
professionalism,
Post by starwars
show distinct bias, and risk bringing the rail community into disrepute.
She
Post by starwars
personally describes herself as being "chaotic" and a "very sensitive
person
Post by starwars
who suffers from a mood disorder". I have noticed that there are two
other
Post by starwars
people who handle some of the administration of the site and think that
the
Post by starwars
site management should be handed over to one of them as they seem to have
a
Post by starwars
level of maturity that is sadly lacking with Chris.
It would be my assessment that if it is intended to carry on the group as
it
Post by starwars
is it really should be renamed to something more apllicable like
tranzrailchat
Post by starwars
and a separate specialist rail photography group started up. The sooner
changes
Post by starwars
are implemented the better for the whole rail community.
This message has had to be posted here as the group does not provide a
forum
Post by starwars
for free discussion and if it was posted on group it would probably be
deleted
Post by starwars
or result in a membership being terminated.
The group does not provide a forum for defamatory remarks which is
what you are likely to have posted in this message. The use of the
anonymiser is only necessary so that you can get away with it. I have
been advised that if you are identified you could be subject to legal
action. There is I believe legal precedence for this in regard of
Usenet.

I have never met Christine Johnson but she is highly regarded in the
NZ rail heritage community and frequently works with the national rail
heritage coordinating body FRONZ on matters of rail heritage as well
as with Steam Incorporated, one of NZ's most prominent steam
locomotive restoration societies. This kind of regard is earned
through sheer hard work and diligence over many years. It is not
achieved by abusing people in public forums.

The group's membership is only a fraction of the total membership of
railway heritage groups in NZ. It is however the most successful of
the NZ forums currently receiving up to 100 posts a day.

I find it ironic that you accuse her of bringing the rail community
into disrepute in the circumstances. There are a good many people who
would regard your actions as doing more to achieve that than anyone
else.

As someone who has frequently taken a dissenting view on many issues I
have remained a member of that group and have posted regularly,
perhaps it is that I do not try to force the issue as you have done
here.
2003-07-25 12:29:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by starwars
Post by starwars
This message has had to be posted here as the group does not provide a
forum
Post by starwars
for free discussion and if it was posted on group it would probably be
deleted
Post by starwars
or result in a membership being terminated.
The group does not provide a forum for defamatory remarks which is
what you are likely to have posted in this message. The use of the
anonymiser is only necessary so that you can get away with it. I have
been advised that if you are identified you could be subject to legal
action. There is I believe legal precedence for this in regard of
Usenet.
As it appears from other posts on this thread, there may well be a basis for
many of the comments that have been made.

There, to date, has been no specific rebuttal to claims that the
circumstances referred to in the post may describe actual events that have
happened, other than a reference to the "majority" of members being
satisfied.

As such, the post may reflect a genuinely held opinion, and is therefore NOT
defamation.

I ask you;

Have you been a witness to any behaviours or actions that would fit any of
the description?

Would it be your assessment that there could be any grounds or cause for the
statements to have been made?

In your opinion, do you think there is any basis or potential basis for the
comments to be based on factual events or happenings?

Have any members of the group been treated in a manner that seems unfair or
harsh?

Have there been any comments made on the group that would indicate concerns
have been raised previously about certain actions or behaviours?

You do not have to comment on specific instances, but a simple YES or NO
would suffice.
Post by Patrick Dunford
I have never met Christine Johnson but she is highly regarded in the
NZ rail heritage community and frequently works with the national rail
heritage coordinating body FRONZ on matters of rail heritage as well
as with Steam Incorporated, one of NZ's most prominent steam
locomotive restoration societies. This kind of regard is earned
through sheer hard work and diligence over many years. It is not
achieved by abusing people in public forums.
Obviously she is committed to the work she does, and congratulations to her
for putting in such efforts to something that is of interest to her.
RK
2003-07-23 05:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by starwars
The group is named "Tranzrailphotographers" and is described on the Home Page
as a "friendly group" but this seems to be a misnomer and is far from the truth.
Instead the message area often seems to be dominated by "turf wars".
You could probably replace "tranzrailphotographers" in the paragraph above
with the name of probably 80-90% of messageboards/groups on the internet :)
samg
2003-07-23 10:31:08 UTC
Permalink
starwars <***@tatooine.homelinux.net> wrote in news:***@tatooine.homelinux.net:

<snip>

transvestites pics. Bleh, bugger off.
HiM
2003-07-23 19:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by starwars
The group is named "Tranzrailphotographers" and is described on the Home Page
as a "friendly group" but this seems to be a misnomer and is far from the truth.
Instead the message area often seems to be dominated by "turf wars".
So what?
Its a yahoo group, if you dont like it, leave and start your own.
addy to group please
Mainlander
2003-07-23 23:52:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by starwars
Post by starwars
The group is named "Tranzrailphotographers" and is described on the Home
Page
Post by starwars
as a "friendly group" but this seems to be a misnomer and is far from
the truth.
Post by starwars
Instead the message area often seems to be dominated by "turf wars".
So what?
Its a yahoo group, if you dont like it, leave and start your own.
addy to group please
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tranzrailphotographers/
Mainlander
2003-07-23 23:52:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by starwars
The group is named "Tranzrailphotographers" and is described on the Home Page
as a "friendly group" but this seems to be a misnomer and is far from the truth.
Instead the message area often seems to be dominated by "turf wars".
The current list manager is a Christine Johnson who prefers to use the masculine
Chris. Sadly a lot of her comments on the group about other posters are often
a combination of condescension and belittlement, and are laced with an undertone
of bitterness and snide inferences. Overall she comes across as being somewhat
arrogant, dismissive, immature selfish, and a user.
Chris displays a high level of intolerance of other viewpoints where usually
the end result is that she often makes derisory personal attacks on other posters
or abuses her position to silence them. Unless your posts meet a politically
correct sanitised profile that supports her buddies then you are at risk of
losing your membership and access to the group. In fact it seems like the site
is more of a mouthpiece for militant unionists and an elitist clique of preservation
group members rather than representing or discussing photography and photographers.
People who post links to other non-commercial sites offering information, news,
pictures or specialist information that may be of interest to members of the
group can be accused of advertising or are labelled as being competition, yet
there are no problems when it comes to excursions or preservation groups advertising
their wares. She only seems to be interested in her group (and elitist cliquists)
and how many members she has, rather than showing an interest in the groups
members themselves, and allowing them to access some excellent resources on
rail. In fact she threatens other people who operate other sites and tries
to tell them what they are and aren't allowed to have or discuss on their sites.
Photographers who submit photos rarely receive much notice and usually no thanks
in recognition of their efforts in contributing and sharing their photos.
In fact some photographers are actually put off and made to feel that they
are creating a burden by submitting their pictures due to the poor management
processes and lack of commitment in transferring photos to a separate photos
website.
Her behaviour and actions in recent times lack any form of professionalism,
show distinct bias, and risk bringing the rail community into disrepute. She
personally describes herself as being "chaotic" and a "very sensitive person
who suffers from a mood disorder". I have noticed that there are two other
people who handle some of the administration of the site and think that the
site management should be handed over to one of them as they seem to have a
level of maturity that is sadly lacking with Chris.
It would be my assessment that if it is intended to carry on the group as it
is it really should be renamed to something more apllicable like tranzrailchat
and a separate specialist rail photography group started up. The sooner changes
are implemented the better for the whole rail community.
This message has had to be posted here as the group does not provide a forum
for free discussion and if it was posted on group it would probably be deleted
or result in a membership being terminated.
Firstly, I see that you have chosen to use an anonymous remailer. The
fact being that this was quite unnecessary as all you have to do to
disguise your identity is to not list your real email address in your
user profile of your newsreader.

I am a member of the forum you refer to but I am not a moderator. I have
advised the moderators of the group to read this thread of discussion. I
have no idea whether they will choose to reply to your comments of
discussion.

The group that you refer to is a group of only 300 members and is only
one of a number of forums in the NZ rail interest area. There are a
number of other forums that have been set up and individuals are free to
set up their own forums, a number do operate and meet the needs and
wishes of individuals.

It is wise if you wish to advertise another forum to check with the owner
of that forum first as to whether they permit that kind of material to be
posted.

It is my observation in general that the majority of members of these
groups see the group solely in terms of its ability to provide them with
a discussion forum and are not interested in political matters such as
these.
Mainlander
2003-07-24 03:39:20 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@news.paradise.net.nz>, *@*.*
says...
Post by Mainlander
Post by starwars
The group is named "Tranzrailphotographers" and is described on the Home Page
as a "friendly group" but this seems to be a misnomer and is far from the truth.
Instead the message area often seems to be dominated by "turf wars".
The current list manager is a Christine Johnson who prefers to use the masculine
Chris. Sadly a lot of her comments on the group about other posters are often
a combination of condescension and belittlement, and are laced with an undertone
of bitterness and snide inferences. Overall she comes across as being somewhat
arrogant, dismissive, immature selfish, and a user.
Chris displays a high level of intolerance of other viewpoints where usually
the end result is that she often makes derisory personal attacks on other posters
or abuses her position to silence them. Unless your posts meet a politically
correct sanitised profile that supports her buddies then you are at risk of
losing your membership and access to the group. In fact it seems like the site
is more of a mouthpiece for militant unionists and an elitist clique of preservation
group members rather than representing or discussing photography and photographers.
People who post links to other non-commercial sites offering information, news,
pictures or specialist information that may be of interest to members of the
group can be accused of advertising or are labelled as being competition, yet
there are no problems when it comes to excursions or preservation groups advertising
their wares. She only seems to be interested in her group (and elitist cliquists)
and how many members she has, rather than showing an interest in the groups
members themselves, and allowing them to access some excellent resources on
rail. In fact she threatens other people who operate other sites and tries
to tell them what they are and aren't allowed to have or discuss on their sites.
Photographers who submit photos rarely receive much notice and usually no thanks
in recognition of their efforts in contributing and sharing their photos.
In fact some photographers are actually put off and made to feel that they
are creating a burden by submitting their pictures due to the poor management
processes and lack of commitment in transferring photos to a separate photos
website.
Her behaviour and actions in recent times lack any form of professionalism,
show distinct bias, and risk bringing the rail community into disrepute. She
personally describes herself as being "chaotic" and a "very sensitive person
who suffers from a mood disorder". I have noticed that there are two other
people who handle some of the administration of the site and think that the
site management should be handed over to one of them as they seem to have a
level of maturity that is sadly lacking with Chris.
It would be my assessment that if it is intended to carry on the group as it
is it really should be renamed to something more apllicable like tranzrailchat
and a separate specialist rail photography group started up. The sooner changes
are implemented the better for the whole rail community.
This message has had to be posted here as the group does not provide a forum
for free discussion and if it was posted on group it would probably be deleted
or result in a membership being terminated.
Firstly, I see that you have chosen to use an anonymous remailer. The
fact being that this was quite unnecessary as all you have to do to
disguise your identity is to not list your real email address in your
user profile of your newsreader.
Or I could put it another way. What you have posted is false and
misleading, or potentially defamatory. Therefore you have to hide who you
are.

aus.rail is the perfect group for you, it is just full of this sort of
trivia and flame wars and crap from people who like wasting time. Why
don't you go there and see what they think.
2003-07-25 07:16:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mainlander
Post by Mainlander
Post by starwars
This message has had to be posted here as the group does not provide a forum
for free discussion and if it was posted on group it would probably be deleted
or result in a membership being terminated.
Firstly, I see that you have chosen to use an anonymous remailer. The
fact being that this was quite unnecessary as all you have to do to
disguise your identity is to not list your real email address in your
user profile of your newsreader.
Or I could put it another way. What you have posted is false and
misleading, or potentially defamatory. Therefore you have to hide who you
are.
If it has been considered and is an honest opinion, then it is not
defamatory.

In such cases, there would probably be discussions or posts that would
support such claims being made.

I think the reason it has been posted anonymously, is as they state in the
last paragraph, that they were concerned it would be deleted or a membership
would have been terminated (in other words, to protect against retribution).
As such, this would seem to be a valid justification.
Mainlander
2003-07-25 09:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by starwars
Post by Mainlander
Post by Mainlander
Post by starwars
This message has had to be posted here as the group does not provide a
forum
Post by Mainlander
Post by Mainlander
Post by starwars
for free discussion and if it was posted on group it would probably be
deleted
Post by Mainlander
Post by Mainlander
Post by starwars
or result in a membership being terminated.
Firstly, I see that you have chosen to use an anonymous remailer. The
fact being that this was quite unnecessary as all you have to do to
disguise your identity is to not list your real email address in your
user profile of your newsreader.
Or I could put it another way. What you have posted is false and
misleading, or potentially defamatory. Therefore you have to hide who you
are.
If it has been considered and is an honest opinion, then it is not
defamatory.
In such cases, there would probably be discussions or posts that would
support such claims being made.
I think the reason it has been posted anonymously, is as they state in the
last paragraph, that they were concerned it would be deleted or a membership
would have been terminated (in other words, to protect against retribution).
As such, this would seem to be a valid justification.
Most people would regard the use of an anonymizing proxy server as
gutless cowardice. Most anonymizer-users on these groups meet with
widespread disdain and contempt. If the views were not defamatory then
the person should be prepared to put their name behind them. As it is I
doubt that person would be considered anything other than a poison pen in
the group they refer to. It would actually be for the good of the group
if they identified themselves since in all probability most of the group
members would not oppose their removal. In that case retribution is fair
and just to the rest of the group and an appropriate response to the
situation.
Mark Newton
2003-07-25 09:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mainlander
Most people would regard the use of an anonymizing proxy server as
gutless cowardice. Most anonymizer-users on these groups meet with
widespread disdain and contempt.
Most anonymizer-users, and nearly all Kiwis.

What makes you think that anyone here on aus.rail is interested?

Mark Newton.
Mainlander
2003-07-25 10:03:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Newton
Post by Mainlander
Most people would regard the use of an anonymizing proxy server as
gutless cowardice. Most anonymizer-users on these groups meet with
widespread disdain and contempt.
Most anonymizer-users, and nearly all Kiwis.
What makes you think that anyone here on aus.rail is interested?
I pointed out to the original poster that aus.rail was the perfect forum
for him to post since it is full of pointless flame wars and
backstabbing.
Mark Newton
2003-07-25 10:08:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mainlander
Post by Mark Newton
Post by Mainlander
Most people would regard the use of an anonymizing proxy server as
gutless cowardice. Most anonymizer-users on these groups meet with
widespread disdain and contempt.
Most anonymizer-users, and nearly all Kiwis.
What makes you think that anyone here on aus.rail is interested?
I pointed out to the original poster that aus.rail was the perfect forum
for him to post since it is full of pointless flame wars and
backstabbing.
You'll feel right at home here, then.

Mark Newton.
say no to bullies
2003-07-25 09:56:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mainlander
Post by
If it has been considered and is an honest opinion, then it is not
defamatory.
In such cases, there would probably be discussions or posts that would
support such claims being made.
I think the reason it has been posted anonymously, is as they state in the
last paragraph, that they were concerned it would be deleted or a membership
would have been terminated (in other words, to protect against retribution).
As such, this would seem to be a valid justification.
Most people would regard the use of an anonymizing proxy server as
gutless cowardice. Most anonymizer-users on these groups meet with
widespread disdain and contempt. If the views were not defamatory then
the person should be prepared to put their name behind them. As it is I
doubt that person would be considered anything other than a poison pen in
the group they refer to. It would actually be for the good of the group
if they identified themselves since in all probability most of the group
members would not oppose their removal. In that case retribution is fair
and just to the rest of the group and an appropriate response to the
situation.
Do you mean to say that all people who make anonymous posts on the internet
are cowards?

So would you instead endorse bullying and "ganging up" on people - a "mob"
mentality?

I'm sure those who, for example, provide evidence in cases against gang
members under witness protection programmes would find your responses
regarding anonymity somewhat disturbing. In such cases, these people need
to be protected from threatening and potentially vindictive behaviour.

Perhaps you need to read up on the affects, behaviours and management
strategies for bullies and bullying, and then perhaps reconsider your
position

http://www.helpline4u.co.uk/bully.htm
http://www.helpline4u.co.uk/bcontrol.htm

Say NO to bullies!
Mark Newton
2003-07-25 09:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by say no to bullies
Do you mean to say that all people who make anonymous posts on the
internet are cowards?
If that's the case then "mainlander" is presumably a coward itself.
Mainlander
2003-07-25 10:25:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Newton
Post by say no to bullies
Do you mean to say that all people who make anonymous posts on the
internet are cowards?
If that's the case then "mainlander" is presumably a coward itself.
I can be traced from information supplied by my ISP. The ISP will only
give that information in the case of a criminal action by a recognised
law enforcement agency.

I am referring to the use of anonymising remailers which remove all such
identifiable information from posts.
Mainlander
2003-07-25 10:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by starwars
Post by Mainlander
Post by
If it has been considered and is an honest opinion, then it is not
defamatory.
In such cases, there would probably be discussions or posts that would
support such claims being made.
I think the reason it has been posted anonymously, is as they state in
the
Post by Mainlander
Post by
last paragraph, that they were concerned it would be deleted or a
membership
Post by Mainlander
Post by
would have been terminated (in other words, to protect against
retribution).
Post by Mainlander
Post by
As such, this would seem to be a valid justification.
Most people would regard the use of an anonymizing proxy server as
gutless cowardice. Most anonymizer-users on these groups meet with
widespread disdain and contempt. If the views were not defamatory then
the person should be prepared to put their name behind them. As it is I
doubt that person would be considered anything other than a poison pen in
the group they refer to. It would actually be for the good of the group
if they identified themselves since in all probability most of the group
members would not oppose their removal. In that case retribution is fair
and just to the rest of the group and an appropriate response to the
situation.
Do you mean to say that all people who make anonymous posts on the internet
are cowards?
Most of them are, yes.
Post by starwars
So would you instead endorse bullying and "ganging up" on people - a "mob"
mentality?
I'm sure those who, for example, provide evidence in cases against gang
members under witness protection programmes would find your responses
regarding anonymity somewhat disturbing. In such cases, these people need
to be protected from threatening and potentially vindictive behaviour.
But we're not talking about WPPs and the like. We're talking about making
defamatory or libellious remarks, the main reasons for using anonymising
proxies.
Post by starwars
Perhaps you need to read up on the affects, behaviours and management
strategies for bullies and bullying, and then perhaps reconsider your
position
http://www.helpline4u.co.uk/bully.htm
http://www.helpline4u.co.uk/bcontrol.htm
Say NO to bullies!
The Internet is not immune from the laws of any country nor is any person
who posts there immune from repercussions that may be fairly applied
either by legal processes or by any associates who become aware of their
activities. This is called accountability.

The members of the group, which consists of several hundred, would be
entirely within their rights to decline membership on the grounds that
the activities of the person were disruptive to the greater wellbeing of
the group.
2003-07-25 10:50:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mainlander
Post by say no to bullies
So would you instead endorse bullying and "ganging up" on people - a "mob"
mentality?
I'm sure those who, for example, provide evidence in cases against gang
members under witness protection programmes would find your responses
regarding anonymity somewhat disturbing. In such cases, these people need
to be protected from threatening and potentially vindictive behaviour.
But we're not talking about WPPs and the like. We're talking about making
defamatory or libellious remarks, the main reasons for using anonymising
proxies.
In this particular case, it has not been determined whether the comments in
question are or are not defamatory. If they represent an honest opinion,
then they are not.

Is it your personal assessment that the use of anonymising proxies is often
used for such purposes?
Post by Mainlander
Post by say no to bullies
Perhaps you need to read up on the affects, behaviours and management
strategies for bullies and bullying, and then perhaps reconsider your
position
http://www.helpline4u.co.uk/bully.htm
http://www.helpline4u.co.uk/bcontrol.htm
Say NO to bullies!
The Internet is not immune from the laws of any country nor is any person
who posts there immune from repercussions that may be fairly applied
either by legal processes or by any associates who become aware of their
activities. This is called accountability.
The members of the group, which consists of several hundred, would be
entirely within their rights to decline membership on the grounds that
the activities of the person were disruptive to the greater wellbeing of
the group.
So, you, as a member of the Tranzrailphotographers group, would possibly
have been a witness to potential events that have been described in the
post.

Have you been a witness to any behaviours or actions that would fit any of
the description?

Would it be your assessment that there could be any grounds or cause for the
statements to have been made?

In your opinion, do you think there is any basis or potential basis for the
comments to be based on factual events or happenings?

Have any members of the group been treated in a manner that seems unfair or
harsh?

Have there been any comments made on the group that would indicate concerns
have been raised previously about certain actions or behaviours?

You do not have to comment on specific instances, but a simple YES or NO
would suffice.
Mainlander
2003-07-25 11:57:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by
Post by Mainlander
Post by say no to bullies
So would you instead endorse bullying and "ganging up" on people - a
"mob"
Post by Mainlander
Post by say no to bullies
mentality?
I'm sure those who, for example, provide evidence in cases against gang
members under witness protection programmes would find your responses
regarding anonymity somewhat disturbing. In such cases, these people
need
Post by Mainlander
Post by say no to bullies
to be protected from threatening and potentially vindictive behaviour.
But we're not talking about WPPs and the like. We're talking about making
defamatory or libellious remarks, the main reasons for using anonymising
proxies.
In this particular case, it has not been determined whether the comments in
question are or are not defamatory. If they represent an honest opinion,
then they are not.
Is it your personal assessment that the use of anonymising proxies is often
used for such purposes?
Post by Mainlander
Post by say no to bullies
Perhaps you need to read up on the affects, behaviours and management
strategies for bullies and bullying, and then perhaps reconsider your
position
http://www.helpline4u.co.uk/bully.htm
http://www.helpline4u.co.uk/bcontrol.htm
Say NO to bullies!
The Internet is not immune from the laws of any country nor is any person
who posts there immune from repercussions that may be fairly applied
either by legal processes or by any associates who become aware of their
activities. This is called accountability.
The members of the group, which consists of several hundred, would be
entirely within their rights to decline membership on the grounds that
the activities of the person were disruptive to the greater wellbeing of
the group.
So, you, as a member of the Tranzrailphotographers group, would possibly
have been a witness to potential events that have been described in the
post.
Have you been a witness to any behaviours or actions that would fit any of
the description?
Would it be your assessment that there could be any grounds or cause for the
statements to have been made?
In your opinion, do you think there is any basis or potential basis for the
comments to be based on factual events or happenings?
Have any members of the group been treated in a manner that seems unfair or
harsh?
Have there been any comments made on the group that would indicate concerns
have been raised previously about certain actions or behaviours?
You do not have to comment on specific instances, but a simple YES or NO
would suffice.
There was an "official" reply from the owner of the list in this thread
earlier today. That pretty well covers it, as do other comments I made.

I am not going to respond directly to your comments except to note that
the views of the original poster do not appear to represent the views of
the majority of members of that group.

The affairs of the group, which is a restricted membership list, are not
up for public discussion in any forum such as this. I will simply note
that the group is by far and away the most popular group of its type in
the NZ rail scene indicating a high level of satisfaction by its members,
who represent a wide cross section of the rail enthusiast community in
NZ. This would tend to indicate that the comments made are not
representative of the experiences of most members.
2003-07-25 12:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mainlander
Post by
So, you, as a member of the Tranzrailphotographers group, would possibly
have been a witness to potential events that have been described in the
post.
Have you been a witness to any behaviours or actions that would fit any of
the description?
Would it be your assessment that there could be any grounds or cause for the
statements to have been made?
In your opinion, do you think there is any basis or potential basis for the
comments to be based on factual events or happenings?
Have any members of the group been treated in a manner that seems unfair or
harsh?
Have there been any comments made on the group that would indicate concerns
have been raised previously about certain actions or behaviours?
You do not have to comment on specific instances, but a simple YES or NO
would suffice.
There was an "official" reply from the owner of the list in this thread
earlier today. That pretty well covers it, as do other comments I made.
I am not going to respond directly to your comments except to note that
the views of the original poster do not appear to represent the views of
the majority of members of that group.
The affairs of the group, which is a restricted membership list, are not
up for public discussion in any forum such as this. I will simply note
that the group is by far and away the most popular group of its type in
the NZ rail scene indicating a high level of satisfaction by its members,
who represent a wide cross section of the rail enthusiast community in
NZ. This would tend to indicate that the comments made are not
representative of the experiences of most members.
So all you are saying, in effect, is that the post may very well represent
actual, factual events, but simply that similar views are not held by the
majority of current members.
Mainlander
2003-07-25 12:21:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by say no to bullies
Post by Mainlander
Post by
So, you, as a member of the Tranzrailphotographers group, would possibly
have been a witness to potential events that have been described in the
post.
Have you been a witness to any behaviours or actions that would fit any
of
Post by Mainlander
Post by
the description?
Would it be your assessment that there could be any grounds or cause for
the
Post by Mainlander
Post by
statements to have been made?
In your opinion, do you think there is any basis or potential basis for
the
Post by Mainlander
Post by
comments to be based on factual events or happenings?
Have any members of the group been treated in a manner that seems unfair
or
Post by Mainlander
Post by
harsh?
Have there been any comments made on the group that would indicate
concerns
Post by Mainlander
Post by
have been raised previously about certain actions or behaviours?
You do not have to comment on specific instances, but a simple YES or NO
would suffice.
There was an "official" reply from the owner of the list in this thread
earlier today. That pretty well covers it, as do other comments I made.
I am not going to respond directly to your comments except to note that
the views of the original poster do not appear to represent the views of
the majority of members of that group.
The affairs of the group, which is a restricted membership list, are not
up for public discussion in any forum such as this. I will simply note
that the group is by far and away the most popular group of its type in
the NZ rail scene indicating a high level of satisfaction by its members,
who represent a wide cross section of the rail enthusiast community in
NZ. This would tend to indicate that the comments made are not
representative of the experiences of most members.
So all you are saying, in effect, is that the post may very well represent
actual, factual events, but simply that similar views are not held by the
majority of current members.
It looks to me as though the post might represent the view of one person.
That person might well be trying to lord themselves over the rest of the
group. In such situations, things become very politicised.
2003-07-25 12:53:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mainlander
Post by
So all you are saying, in effect, is that the post may very well represent
actual, factual events, but simply that similar views are not held by the
majority of current members.
It looks to me as though the post might represent the view of one person.
That person might well be trying to lord themselves over the rest of the
group. In such situations, things become very politicised.
So it would be reasonable to surmise that there are in fact "turf wars", and
that there may be "intolerance" and politicised factions.
2003-07-26 00:40:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by starwars
Post by Mainlander
Post by
So all you are saying, in effect, is that the post may very well
represent
Post by Mainlander
Post by
actual, factual events, but simply that similar views are not held
by
Post by starwars
the
Post by Mainlander
Post by
majority of current members.
It looks to me as though the post might represent the view of one person.
That person might well be trying to lord themselves over the rest of the
group. In such situations, things become very politicised.
So it would be reasonable to surmise that there are in fact "turf wars", and
that there may be "intolerance" and politicised factions.
You may surmise what you wish. I would suggest to you that these types of
things happen in organisations all over New Zealand, for political
reasons, because some people have political ambitions or objectives.
In fact, on doing a bit of research into these claims, it isn't too
difficult to find material which supports some of the assertions.

A Google-search for **"turf wars" "new zealand" rail** came up with a site
that had a very interesting analysis of some of the "history" surrounding
some of these issues.

On the "NZRAILWAYS MESSAGE ARCHIVES" site
http://www.trainweb.org/nzrailways/Messages_12101_to_12121.html we find the
following.....

When Tranzrailphotographers was formed,
disputes between the founder of
NZRailways and founders of TRP led to the
former being excluded from
membership. This situation was overcome in
October 2002 and removed one of
the main reasons to keep NZRailways
operating. With the future of the group
now uncertain the founder took back the list
ownership and promoted a
concept of working with "fringe" elements who
were involved in other small
lists to bring them into participation in the
wider railfan community. An
early effort in this was to attempt to
negotiate a merger with the
Railway_Preservation_News list formed by a
disaffected former moderator of
Tranzrailphotographers. Although the
negotiations were initiated in good
faith, there was a lack of commitment in the
RPN list which was then in
decline due to turf wars between the list
owner and prominent members, so
the merger proposal failed.

Not only does it suggest that "turf wars" do indeeed occur on some of these
groups, but there is a specific reference to the Tranzrail photographers
group and a member "being excluded" as a result of "disputes". Also there
are also references to "fringe" elements, suggesting that there are factions
and friction within the various groups, and a specific reference to a
"disaffected former moderator of Tranzrailphotographers" all indicating that
there is quite a degree of contention and disagreement in some of the groups
that perhaps stems from intolerance of others views.

From these decriptions, it would also the support the claim regarding the
presence of various cliques (we're better than they are, in-group/out-group
etc. particularly when reading through some of the other comments on the
site)

As to at least one of the other claims made in the original statement,
another simple search on Google also verifies the comments made.
Typing in **"very sensitive person who suffers from a mood disorder"**
returns http://www.nzscribble.net/collection/Johnson.html and by reading
througth the page, one finds both statements made in the original post do in
fact appear on the page.

It seems that instead of the comments being defamatory as has been
previously implied, that given the circumstances, they would very easily be
able to classified as honest opinion, and from a bit of research appear to
actually have sufficient grounds to be considered as being based on factual
information. It would be very interesting to have a look at some of the
discussions/posts/emails from the group to further consider the issues

The original post could well be an attempt at "blowing the whistle".
Mainlander
2003-07-26 10:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by
Not only does it suggest that "turf wars" do indeeed occur on some of these
groups, but there is a specific reference to the Tranzrail photographers
group and a member "being excluded" as a result of "disputes". Also there
are also references to "fringe" elements, suggesting that there are factions
and friction within the various groups, and a specific reference to a
"disaffected former moderator of Tranzrailphotographers" all indicating that
there is quite a degree of contention and disagreement in some of the groups
that perhaps stems from intolerance of others views.
Turf-wars or conflicts occur in many groups as manifestations of
personality conflicts and differing opinions on many subjects.

Fringe elements in this context refers to a small minority of
participants who are considered by the majority to bring their interest
or hobby into disrepute. For example, stealing money or property from
societies to which they have belonged. Some fringe elements have formed
their own groups, with limited support because of overall lack of
credibility. The formation of a Yahoo group is a much simpler proposition
than the legal processes required to form an incorporated railway society
so there have been a proliferation of such groups.
Mainlander
2003-07-26 10:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by
Post by Mainlander
Post by starwars
Post by Mainlander
Post by
So all you are saying, in effect, is that the post may very well
represent
Post by Mainlander
Post by
actual, factual events, but simply that similar views are not held
by
Post by starwars
the
Post by Mainlander
Post by
majority of current members.
It looks to me as though the post might represent the view of one
person.
Post by starwars
Post by Mainlander
That person might well be trying to lord themselves over the rest of
the
Post by starwars
Post by Mainlander
group. In such situations, things become very politicised.
So it would be reasonable to surmise that there are in fact "turf
wars",
Post by Mainlander
and
Post by starwars
that there may be "intolerance" and politicised factions.
You may surmise what you wish. I would suggest to you that these types
of
Post by Mainlander
things happen in organisations all over New Zealand, for political
reasons, because some people have political ambitions or objectives.
In fact, on doing a bit of research into these claims, it isn't too
difficult to find material which supports some of the assertions.
A Google-search for **"turf wars" "new zealand" rail** came up with a site
that had a very interesting analysis of some of the "history" surrounding
some of these issues.
On the "NZRAILWAYS MESSAGE ARCHIVES" site
http://www.trainweb.org/nzrailways/Messages_12101_to_12121.html we find
the
Post by Mainlander
following.....
When Tranzrailphotographers was formed,
disputes between the founder of
NZRailways and founders of TRP led to the
former being excluded from
membership. This situation was overcome in
October 2002 and removed one of
the main reasons to keep NZRailways
operating. With the future of the group
now uncertain the founder took back the list
ownership and promoted a
concept of working with "fringe" elements who
were involved in other small
lists to bring them into participation in the
wider railfan community. An
early effort in this was to attempt to
negotiate a merger with the
Railway_Preservation_News list formed by a
disaffected former moderator of
Tranzrailphotographers. Although the
negotiations were initiated in good
faith, there was a lack of commitment in the
RPN list which was then in
decline due to turf wars between the list
owner and prominent members, so
the merger proposal failed.
Not only does it suggest that "turf wars" do indeeed occur on some of
these
Post by Mainlander
groups, but there is a specific reference to the Tranzrail photographers
group and a member "being excluded" as a result of "disputes". Also there
are also references to "fringe" elements, suggesting that there are
factions
Post by Mainlander
and friction within the various groups, and a specific reference to a
"disaffected former moderator of Tranzrailphotographers" all indicating
that
Post by Mainlander
there is quite a degree of contention and disagreement in some of the
groups
Post by Mainlander
that perhaps stems from intolerance of others views.
From these decriptions, it would also the support the claim regarding the
presence of various cliques (we're better than they are,
in-group/out-group
Post by Mainlander
etc. particularly when reading through some of the other comments on the
site)
As to at least one of the other claims made in the original statement,
another simple search on Google also verifies the comments made.
Typing in **"very sensitive person who suffers from a mood disorder"**
returns http://www.nzscribble.net/collection/Johnson.html and by reading
througth the page, one finds both statements made in the original post do
in
Post by Mainlander
fact appear on the page.
It seems that instead of the comments being defamatory as has been
previously implied, that given the circumstances, they would very easily
be
Post by Mainlander
able to classified as honest opinion, and from a bit of research appear to
actually have sufficient grounds to be considered as being based on
factual
Post by Mainlander
information. It would be very interesting to have a look at some of the
discussions/posts/emails from the group to further consider the issues
The original post could well be an attempt at "blowing the whistle".
Further research on the "NZRAILWAYS MESSAGE ARCHIVES" website produces
further evidence that supports the claims that have been made.
On looking for more information regarding the "turf wars", and more
specifically the "dispute" that resulted in an individual being "excluded
from membership", there is actually substantial amounts of information that
shows ongoing problems. It is noted that the dispute mentioned was resolved
in October 2002, well over a year after the dispute began.
So it was resolved, as all intelligent persons should resolve disputes
instead of posting flame messages in public usenet forums using
anonymising remailers.
Patrick Dunford
2003-07-27 06:26:35 UTC
Permalink
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.

ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.

In article <***@clear.net.nz>, <hahaha> says...
2003-07-27 06:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Dunford
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.
ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.
Sorry Patrick, but...

COPYRIGHT ACT 1994
PART 3 - ACTS PERMITTED IN RELATION TO COPYRIGHT WORKS
42. Criticism, review, and news reporting—

42.Criticism, review, and news reporting—

(1)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of criticism or review, of
that or another work or of a performance of a work, does not infringe
copyright in the work if such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient
acknowledgement.

(2)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of reporting current events by
means of a sound recording, film, broadcast, or cable programme does not
infringe copyright in the work.

(3)Fair dealing with a work (other than a photograph) for the purposes of
reporting current events by any means other than those referred to in
subsection (2) of this section does not infringe copyright in the work if
such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient acknowledgement.

The website is clearly acknowledged as a source of the material - it is
named, links are provided, and authors are appropriately attributed.

The point of websites is the dissemination of information.
2003-07-27 06:59:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by
Post by Patrick Dunford
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.
ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.
Sorry Patrick, but...
COPYRIGHT ACT 1994
PART 3 - ACTS PERMITTED IN RELATION TO COPYRIGHT WORKS
42. Criticism, review, and news reporting-
42.Criticism, review, and news reporting-
(1)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of criticism or review, of
that or another work or of a performance of a work, does not infringe
copyright in the work if such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient
acknowledgement.
(2)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of reporting current events by
means of a sound recording, film, broadcast, or cable programme does not
infringe copyright in the work.
(3)Fair dealing with a work (other than a photograph) for the purposes of
reporting current events by any means other than those referred to in
subsection (2) of this section does not infringe copyright in the work if
such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient acknowledgement.
The website is clearly acknowledged as a source of the material - it is
named, links are provided, and authors are appropriately attributed.
The point of websites is the dissemination of information.
Further,

http://www.legislation.govt.nz

COPYRIGHT ACT 1994
PART 3 - ACTS PERMITTED IN RELATION TO COPYRIGHT WORKS
43. Research or private study-

43.Research or private study-

(1)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of research or private study
does not infringe copyright in the work.

(2)For the avoidance of doubt, it is hereby declared that fair dealing with
a published edition for the purposes of research or private study does not
infringe copyright in either the typographical arrangement of the edition or
any literary, dramatic, musical, or artistic work or part of a work in the
edition.

(3)In determining, for the purposes of subsection (1) of this section,
whether copying, by means of a reprographic process or by any other means,
constitutes fair dealing for the purposes of research or private study, a
court shall have regard to-

(a)The purpose of the copying; and

(b)The nature of the work copied; and

(c)Whether the work could have been obtained within a reasonable time at an
ordinary commercial price; and

(d)The effect of the copying on the potential market for, or value of, the
work; and

(e)Where part of a work is copied, the amount and substantiality of the
part copied taken in relation to the whole work.

(4)Nothing in this section authorises the making of more than one copy of
the same work, or the same part of a work, on any one occasion.
2003-07-27 07:09:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Dunford
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.
ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.
Further on the matter or "Criticism, review, and news reporting" and
"Research or private study", look what else I just found on Google.....

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22patrick+dunford%22+mainlander&hl=en&lr=
&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3eea936e%40news.orcon.net.nz&rnum=5

From: Redbaiter (don'***@email.me)
Subject: Re: The Angry Left
View: Complete Thread (8 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: nz.politics, nz.general
Date: 2003-06-13 20:01:53 PST
Post by Patrick Dunford
What benefit are you on since you have the time to spend hours browsing
these sites looking for this material?
It's Saturday, dumbass.
"Mainlander" is the moron and cheat Patrick Dunford under
yet another nick. (who actually does not deny he is himself
on a benefit).

And who proves the absolute truth of the article by rather
than disagreeing with it, attacking the poster personally.

Leftists today are fascists.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22patrick+dunford%22+mainlander&hl=en&lr=
&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=MPG.19766b78a8680393989945%40news.paradise.net.nz&rn
um=8

From: Mainlander (*@*.*)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality.
View: Complete Thread (7 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: nz.soc.religion
Date: 2003-07-08 22:12:06 PST
Post by Patrick Dunford
To all fundametalists and homophobes I recomend the following which is a
letter from the mother of a homosexual. I won't reproduce it because it
is
Post by Patrick Dunford
copyright -
http://www.anzwers.org/free/jesuschrist/gayson.html
I hope it makes some narrow minds feels ashamed of their attitudes.
It is interesting how few self righteous Christians have answered this
post
Post by Patrick Dunford
especially Patrick Dunford alias Mainlander. He would deny homosexuals
employment and housing as he has said in the past. I think the Pharisees
are
Post by Patrick Dunford
still around.
Well now Bobby. The current law permits churches to exercise an
appropriate level of choice when employing people as church leaders. I am
all for that, as are most thinking people. Come on, you profess to be a
thinker of sorts, you can see the issues.

As far as housing goes, the house happens to be where most homosexuals
practice their sexual perversions and as such I support any notion at all
that the owner of a property should be able to say no to such things.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22patrick+dunford%22+mainlander&hl=en&lr=
&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=fmc5gv8rag3tpgu9mrsbu4peq8tn3ut6s9%404ax.com&rnum=4

From: David Pears (***@bigfoot.com.au)
Subject: Re: So much for the truce!!
View: Complete Thread (32 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: nz.general
Date: 2003-07-02 03:42:47 PST
Post by Patrick Dunford
I've never been harassed by anyone on line, left or right. On the
other hand, I exchange social e-mails with a few of the posters here
on a fairly regular basis. If you're scared of harassment, then I
suspect you are a very timid person.
I'm a family person. It isn't just about me.
And you have nothing to worry about on their behalf, since the chances
of them being harrassed for anything you say or do on a newsgroup is
something close to zero. Really. I have been here, off and on, for
seven or eight years and haven't had as much as a single angry e-mail
the whole time. Zip. Zero. None.

These groups have a succession of anonymous trolls and loons passing
thru, often changing their "name" as often as I change my socks. On
the whole their credibility is low, and I tend to kill file them as
soon as I spot them. Take Patrick Dunford for instance, currently
posting as Mainlander. Zero credibility. And killfiled as soon as I
worked out who he was this time. Or Scooter. Or any one of a hundred
forgettable here today gone tomorrow trolls and fools. But I don't
think I have any named poster in my kill file, and respect their right
to hold their views even when I disagree with them.

It is up to you, but I think you'd do yourself a world of good if you
changed your handle to your name.
Patrick Dunford
2003-07-27 06:26:56 UTC
Permalink
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.

ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.

In article <***@clear.net.nz>, <hahaha> says...
2003-07-27 06:51:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Dunford
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.
ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.
Sorry Patrick, but...

COPYRIGHT ACT 1994
PART 3 - ACTS PERMITTED IN RELATION TO COPYRIGHT WORKS
42. Criticism, review, and news reporting-

42.Criticism, review, and news reporting-

(1)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of criticism or review, of
that or another work or of a performance of a work, does not infringe
copyright in the work if such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient
acknowledgement.

(2)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of reporting current events by
means of a sound recording, film, broadcast, or cable programme does not
infringe copyright in the work.

(3)Fair dealing with a work (other than a photograph) for the purposes of
reporting current events by any means other than those referred to in
subsection (2) of this section does not infringe copyright in the work if
such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient acknowledgement.

The website is clearly acknowledged as a source of the material - it is
named, links are provided, and authors are appropriately attributed.

The point of websites is the dissemination of information.
2003-07-27 06:59:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by
Post by Patrick Dunford
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.
ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.
Sorry Patrick, but...
COPYRIGHT ACT 1994
PART 3 - ACTS PERMITTED IN RELATION TO COPYRIGHT WORKS
42. Criticism, review, and news reporting-
42.Criticism, review, and news reporting-
(1)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of criticism or review, of
that or another work or of a performance of a work, does not infringe
copyright in the work if such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient
acknowledgement.
(2)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of reporting current events by
means of a sound recording, film, broadcast, or cable programme does not
infringe copyright in the work.
(3)Fair dealing with a work (other than a photograph) for the purposes of
reporting current events by any means other than those referred to in
subsection (2) of this section does not infringe copyright in the work if
such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient acknowledgement.
The website is clearly acknowledged as a source of the material - it is
named, links are provided, and authors are appropriately attributed.
The point of websites is the dissemination of information.
Further,

http://www.legislation.govt.nz

COPYRIGHT ACT 1994
PART 3 - ACTS PERMITTED IN RELATION TO COPYRIGHT WORKS
43. Research or private study-

43.Research or private study-

(1)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of research or private study
does not infringe copyright in the work.

(2)For the avoidance of doubt, it is hereby declared that fair dealing with
a published edition for the purposes of research or private study does not
infringe copyright in either the typographical arrangement of the edition or
any literary, dramatic, musical, or artistic work or part of a work in the
edition.

(3)In determining, for the purposes of subsection (1) of this section,
whether copying, by means of a reprographic process or by any other means,
constitutes fair dealing for the purposes of research or private study, a
court shall have regard to-

(a)The purpose of the copying; and

(b)The nature of the work copied; and

(c)Whether the work could have been obtained within a reasonable time at an
ordinary commercial price; and

(d)The effect of the copying on the potential market for, or value of, the
work; and

(e)Where part of a work is copied, the amount and substantiality of the
part copied taken in relation to the whole work.

(4)Nothing in this section authorises the making of more than one copy of
the same work, or the same part of a work, on any one occasion.
2003-07-27 08:48:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by
Post by
Post by Patrick Dunford
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.
ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.
Sorry Patrick, but...
COPYRIGHT ACT 1994
PART 3 - ACTS PERMITTED IN RELATION TO COPYRIGHT WORKS
42. Criticism, review, and news reporting-
42.Criticism, review, and news reporting-
(1)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of criticism or review, of
that or another work or of a performance of a work, does not infringe
copyright in the work if such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient
acknowledgement.
(2)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of reporting current
events
Post by
by
Post by
means of a sound recording, film, broadcast, or cable programme does not
infringe copyright in the work.
(3)Fair dealing with a work (other than a photograph) for the purposes of
reporting current events by any means other than those referred to in
subsection (2) of this section does not infringe copyright in the work if
such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient acknowledgement.
The website is clearly acknowledged as a source of the material - it is
named, links are provided, and authors are appropriately attributed.
The point of websites is the dissemination of information.
Further,
http://www.legislation.govt.nz
COPYRIGHT ACT 1994
PART 3 - ACTS PERMITTED IN RELATION TO COPYRIGHT WORKS
43. Research or private study-
Research or private study and publication are not the same thing. I very
much doubt that is sufficient grounds.
It is when I am referring to the material as part of researching this topic
and sharing my findings and complete with full acknowledgement of the
source.

You will also note that I was actually recommending that people visit the
site to check the details and continue research themselves.

None of the pages has been reproduced in full but is instead referenced for
brevity highlighting the appropriate supporting material.

I note that none of the files are currently accessible from the "NZRAILWAYS
MESSAGE ARCHIVES" website

I hope you aren't attempting to prevent people from finding out the truth in
this matter and that your motives are pure and honorable.
Patrick Dunford
2003-07-27 09:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by
Research or private study and publication are not the same thing. I very
much doubt that is sufficient grounds.
It is when I am referring to the material as part of researching this topic
and sharing my findings and complete with full acknowledgement of the
source.
You will also note that I was actually recommending that people visit the
site to check the details and continue research themselves.
None of the pages has been reproduced in full but is instead referenced for
brevity highlighting the appropriate supporting material.
I note that none of the files are currently accessible from the "NZRAILWAYS
MESSAGE ARCHIVES" website
I hope you aren't attempting to prevent people from finding out the truth in
this matter and that your motives are pure and honorable.
Truth is a relative term in this context since it relies on
interpretation of information. What has occurred in a past context does
not necessarily support an interpretion in the present context,
particularly since you have not reproduced content from
Tranzrailphotographers in support of your argument.

If I took a picture off your website for private research and then
published it in a commercial magazine that paid me as part of a review
that would be acceptable?

The site's pages have been removed because of *YOUR* breach of the
clearly stated terms of use / copyright notice on each page. The material
on that site was provided for private research only. The members of that
group did not agree to have it published so that their names could be
splattered all over Usenet.
Patrick Dunford
2003-07-27 10:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
Research or private study and publication are not the same thing. I
very
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
much doubt that is sufficient grounds.
It is when I am referring to the material as part of researching this
topic
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
and sharing my findings and complete with full acknowledgement of the
source.
You will also note that I was actually recommending that people visit
the
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
site to check the details and continue research themselves.
None of the pages has been reproduced in full but is instead referenced
for
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
brevity highlighting the appropriate supporting material.
I note that none of the files are currently accessible from the
"NZRAILWAYS
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
MESSAGE ARCHIVES" website
I hope you aren't attempting to prevent people from finding out the
truth in
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
this matter and that your motives are pure and honorable.
Truth is a relative term in this context since it relies on
interpretation of information. What has occurred in a past context does
not necessarily support an interpretion in the present context,
particularly since you have not reproduced content from
Tranzrailphotographers in support of your argument.
If I took a picture off your website for private research and then
published it in a commercial magazine that paid me as part of a review
that would be acceptable?
Are you now also suggesting that there may be people hocking off pictures
from the tranzrailphotographer's group and selling them to magazines?
Are or were you a member of the Tranzrailphotographers group, i.e there
are photos of yours on that website?
2003-07-27 11:27:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
Research or private study and publication are not the same thing. I
very
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
much doubt that is sufficient grounds.
It is when I am referring to the material as part of researching this
topic
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
and sharing my findings and complete with full acknowledgement of the
source.
You will also note that I was actually recommending that people visit
the
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
site to check the details and continue research themselves.
None of the pages has been reproduced in full but is instead referenced
for
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
brevity highlighting the appropriate supporting material.
I note that none of the files are currently accessible from the
"NZRAILWAYS
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
MESSAGE ARCHIVES" website
I hope you aren't attempting to prevent people from finding out the
truth in
Post by Patrick Dunford
Post by
this matter and that your motives are pure and honorable.
Truth is a relative term in this context since it relies on
interpretation of information. What has occurred in a past context does
not necessarily support an interpretion in the present context,
particularly since you have not reproduced content from
Tranzrailphotographers in support of your argument.
If I took a picture off your website for private research and then
published it in a commercial magazine that paid me as part of a review
that would be acceptable?
Are you now also suggesting that there may be people hocking off pictures
from the tranzrailphotographer's group and selling them to magazines?
Are or were you a member of the Tranzrailphotographers group, i.e there
are photos of yours on that website?
Why would I have anything on a site that Im not even a member of. I was
asking if you were suggesting that people on the group were hocking off pics
to sell to magazines because your example of pictures and commercial
magazines has nothing to do with what we are talking about .

More to the point I ask you;

Have you been a witness to any behaviours or actions that would fit any of
the description?

Would it be your assessment that there could be any grounds or cause for the
statements to have been made?

In your opinion, do you think there is any basis or potential basis for the
comments to be based on factual events or happenings?

Have any members of the group been treated in a manner that seems unfair or
harsh?

Have there been any comments made on the group that would indicate concerns
have been raised previously about certain actions or behaviours?

You do not have to comment on specific instances, but a simple YES or NO
would suffice.

So far, from what I have read on the "NZRAILWAYS MESSAGE ARCHIVES" site, I
would say your answers are all YES

I notice you are still here posting even after saying "But who really cares?
I'm going back to Tranzrailphotographers where
there's a whole lot more happening than in this two bit thread."

well it can't be "two bit" after all......

As for me, it is pretty clear from just my research that the original
statement has basis in fact, and as I do have other things to do than split
hairs with someone who doesn't want to admit it, I see little point in
continuing to contribute to this thread so I'll leave you to have the last
word (as from my reading, I see that you like it that way) :o)
Mark Newton
2003-07-27 11:36:19 UTC
Permalink
As <fascinating> as your internecine squabbles are to those who are not
memebers of Tranzrailphotographers, could we please be spared any
further exposure to them? Could you kindly drop the crossposts, please?
2003-07-27 11:10:22 UTC
Permalink
Sounds like a cover-up.
Its a sad state of affairs when a publically accessible website disables
access to content to prevent researchers from continuing their
investigations.
The information contained in that site is not public information. It is
privileged information from members of a group who agreed to make that
information public for the purposes of historical railway research. As
the terms of the use of that information have been breached the public
access to the information has been revoked. The fact that a site is
listed in search engines is not necessarily an indication that it is a
public web site because search engines do not obtain permission from each
site they index unless the webmaster has specifically designed pages or
sites so that search engines ignore them.
Ummmmm....... "not public" yet on a publically accessible website...

If it wasnt public it would be password secured.
Currently it is expected the site will be reinstated once all privileged
information has been removed.
For those wanting to confirm the content of the web pages, I would suggest
you visit the following link
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+site:www.train
web.org+nzrailways+messages
choose "Cached" for each of the pages you wish to view, and save for future
reference
Mainlander
2003-07-27 12:44:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by
Sounds like a cover-up.
Its a sad state of affairs when a publically accessible website disables
access to content to prevent researchers from continuing their
investigations.
The information contained in that site is not public information. It is
privileged information from members of a group who agreed to make that
information public for the purposes of historical railway research. As
the terms of the use of that information have been breached the public
access to the information has been revoked. The fact that a site is
listed in search engines is not necessarily an indication that it is a
public web site because search engines do not obtain permission from each
site they index unless the webmaster has specifically designed pages or
sites so that search engines ignore them.
Ummmmm....... "not public" yet on a publically accessible website...
If it wasnt public it would be password secured.
Currently it is expected the site will be reinstated once all privileged
information has been removed.
For those wanting to confirm the content of the web pages, I would suggest
you visit the following link
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+site:www.train
web.org+nzrailways+messages
choose "Cached" for each of the pages you wish to view, and save for future
reference
Is anyone else reading this thread? HELLO?

Anyway I have it on good authority the cache is about to be purged :)
Mainlander
2003-07-27 12:44:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Dunford
If I took a picture off your website for private research and then
published it in a commercial magazine that paid me as part of a review
that would be acceptable
I'm glad you think so!
BTW...
<plonk!>
Another intolerant post from David Murray, waht a surprise
Lennier
2003-11-21 09:55:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Dunford
If I took a picture off your website for private research and then
published it in a commercial magazine that paid me as part of a review
that would be acceptable
I'm glad you think so!

BTW...

<plonk!>

Lennier
--
I specifically DENY Xtra, and Telecom NZ Ltd, and all other subsidiaries
of Telecom NZ Ltd, the right to use the contents of this digital
communication for any purpose whatsoever, whether in whole or in part -
regardless of how it is stored or transmitted through Xtra's network.
Lennier
2003-11-21 09:55:26 UTC
Permalink
"Truth is a relative term"????? what books do you read?
Dunford is a Fundamentalist - he reads "the Bible".

I have yet to meat a Fundamentalist who has even an halfway accurage grasp
of what is truth.

Lennier
--
I specifically DENY Xtra, and Telecom NZ Ltd, and all other subsidiaries
of Telecom NZ Ltd, the right to use the contents of this digital
communication for any purpose whatsoever, whether in whole or in part -
regardless of how it is stored or transmitted through Xtra's network.
2003-07-27 07:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Dunford
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.
ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.
Further on the matter or "Criticism, review, and news reporting" and
"Research or private study", look what else I just found on Google.....

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22patrick+dunford%22+mainlander&hl=en&lr=
&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3eea936e%40news.orcon.net.nz&rnum=5

From: Redbaiter (don'***@email.me)
Subject: Re: The Angry Left
View: Complete Thread (8 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: nz.politics, nz.general
Date: 2003-06-13 20:01:53 PST
Post by Patrick Dunford
What benefit are you on since you have the time to spend hours browsing
these sites looking for this material?
It's Saturday, dumbass.
"Mainlander" is the moron and cheat Patrick Dunford under
yet another nick. (who actually does not deny he is himself
on a benefit).

And who proves the absolute truth of the article by rather
than disagreeing with it, attacking the poster personally.

Leftists today are fascists.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22patrick+dunford%22+mainlander&hl=en&lr=
&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=MPG.19766b78a8680393989945%40news.paradise.net.nz&rn
um=8

From: Mainlander (*@*.*)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality.
View: Complete Thread (7 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: nz.soc.religion
Date: 2003-07-08 22:12:06 PST
Post by Patrick Dunford
To all fundametalists and homophobes I recomend the following which is a
letter from the mother of a homosexual. I won't reproduce it because it
is
Post by Patrick Dunford
copyright -
http://www.anzwers.org/free/jesuschrist/gayson.html
I hope it makes some narrow minds feels ashamed of their attitudes.
It is interesting how few self righteous Christians have answered this
post
Post by Patrick Dunford
especially Patrick Dunford alias Mainlander. He would deny homosexuals
employment and housing as he has said in the past. I think the Pharisees
are
Post by Patrick Dunford
still around.
Well now Bobby. The current law permits churches to exercise an
appropriate level of choice when employing people as church leaders. I am
all for that, as are most thinking people. Come on, you profess to be a
thinker of sorts, you can see the issues.

As far as housing goes, the house happens to be where most homosexuals
practice their sexual perversions and as such I support any notion at all
that the owner of a property should be able to say no to such things.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22patrick+dunford%22+mainlander&hl=en&lr=
&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=fmc5gv8rag3tpgu9mrsbu4peq8tn3ut6s9%404ax.com&rnum=4

From: David Pears (***@bigfoot.com.au)
Subject: Re: So much for the truce!!
View: Complete Thread (32 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: nz.general
Date: 2003-07-02 03:42:47 PST
Post by Patrick Dunford
I've never been harassed by anyone on line, left or right. On the
other hand, I exchange social e-mails with a few of the posters here
on a fairly regular basis. If you're scared of harassment, then I
suspect you are a very timid person.
I'm a family person. It isn't just about me.
And you have nothing to worry about on their behalf, since the chances
of them being harrassed for anything you say or do on a newsgroup is
something close to zero. Really. I have been here, off and on, for
seven or eight years and haven't had as much as a single angry e-mail
the whole time. Zip. Zero. None.

These groups have a succession of anonymous trolls and loons passing
thru, often changing their "name" as often as I change my socks. On
the whole their credibility is low, and I tend to kill file them as
soon as I spot them. Take Patrick Dunford for instance, currently
posting as Mainlander. Zero credibility. And killfiled as soon as I
worked out who he was this time. Or Scooter. Or any one of a hundred
forgettable here today gone tomorrow trolls and fools. But I don't
think I have any named poster in my kill file, and respect their right
to hold their views even when I disagree with them.

It is up to you, but I think you'd do yourself a world of good if you
changed your handle to your name.
Mark Newton
2003-07-25 12:27:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mainlander
The affairs of the group, which is a restricted membership list, are
not up for public discussion in any forum such as this. I will simply
note that the group is by far and away the most popular group of its
type in the NZ rail scene indicating a high level of satisfaction by
its members, who represent a wide cross section of the rail
enthusiast community in NZ. This would tend to indicate that the
comments made are not representative of the experiences of most
members.
Crikey dick, have youse jokers in Enzed still got trains to photograph, eh?

Mark Newton,
Woolyjumper, NSW.
Mark Newton
2003-07-26 15:29:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Newton
Post by Mainlander
The affairs of the group, which is a restricted membership list,
are not up for public discussion in any forum such as this. I
will simply note that the group is by far and away the most
popular group of its type in the NZ rail scene indicating a high
level of satisfaction by its members, who represent a wide cross
section of the rail enthusiast community in NZ. This would tend
to indicate that the comments made are not representative of the
experiences of most members.
Crikey dick, have youse jokers in Enzed still got trains to
photograph, eh?
Yes, there are also heritage groups up and down the country with
activities going on.
With all the online bickering going on, I'm surprised any one has any
time available for photography, let alone preservation.
Mainlander
2003-07-26 21:48:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Newton
Post by Mark Newton
Post by Mainlander
The affairs of the group, which is a restricted membership list,
are not up for public discussion in any forum such as this. I
will simply note that the group is by far and away the most
popular group of its type in the NZ rail scene indicating a high
level of satisfaction by its members, who represent a wide cross
section of the rail enthusiast community in NZ. This would tend
to indicate that the comments made are not representative of the
experiences of most members.
Crikey dick, have youse jokers in Enzed still got trains to
photograph, eh?
Yes, there are also heritage groups up and down the country with
activities going on.
With all the online bickering going on, I'm surprised any one has any
time available for photography, let alone preservation.
The situation has been greatly misrepresented. I could make the same
observation from the activities of a small group of flame artists who
post in aus.rail and I'm sure they would be promptly disowned by the
heritage rail operators and reputable clubs.

I mean what is this website www.ptua.net supposed to achieve?
2003-07-27 05:50:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mainlander
Post by Mark Newton
Post by Mark Newton
Post by Mainlander
The affairs of the group, which is a restricted membership list,
are not up for public discussion in any forum such as this. I
will simply note that the group is by far and away the most
popular group of its type in the NZ rail scene indicating a high
level of satisfaction by its members, who represent a wide cross
section of the rail enthusiast community in NZ. This would tend
to indicate that the comments made are not representative of the
experiences of most members.
Crikey dick, have youse jokers in Enzed still got trains to photograph, eh?
Yes, there are also heritage groups up and down the country with
activities going on.
With all the online bickering going on, I'm surprised any one has any
time available for photography, let alone preservation.
The situation has been greatly misrepresented. I could make the same
I'm not sure that it has been "greatly misrepresented" as you claim.

In fact, as one contunues researching through the messages on the
"NZRAILWAYS MESSAGE ARCHIVES" website, it becomes more and more apparent how
valid the background to this situation becomes.

A large proportion of the messages display ongoing bitter disputes, mainly
between Patrick Dunford (who is referred to as Dumford) and other members
including Christine Johnson and tranzrailphotographers (the Patrick free
site) and a lot of the messages are laced with all sorts of personal digs.

Some more samples from this intriguing site are listed here......

----------------------
MESSAGE 5039
----------------------

From: "Patrick Dunford"
Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 10:29 pm
Subject: RE: [nzrailways] Re: Stalled Dx's, sparks etc
Post by Mainlander
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, 25 December 2000 18:19
Subject: [nzrailways] Re: Stalled Dx's, sparks etc
Hi everyone,
It would appear that poor Patrick has a rather thin skin, or could it
be a case of "the cap fitting"?
Shut up Patrick unless you have something CONSTRUCTIVE to offer.
I get tired of reading destructive rubbish like you have written
below.
This is NOT a personal attack on Patrick Dunford.
I read it as one. I have a right of reply to the constant attacks made
on me
by one or two members of this group. The whole thing would function
much
more smoothly if they ceased to do so. In this group I have constantly
to
put up with baiting and stirring by these people who constantly
suggest that
I should do this and that. I have asked them to desist but you have
just
seen Ms Johnston come back with the latest attack on me, which she is
unable
to restrain herself from doing. I have had a huge amount of abuse from
her
in private e-mails recently.


http://www.trainweb.org/nzrailways/Messages_05001_to_05100.html


----------------------
MESSAGE 4716
----------------------

From: "Patrick Dunford"
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 1:49 am
Subject: RE: Frothers & Foamers
Post by Mainlander
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:15:08 -0000
Subject: Frothers & Foamers
There are frothers and then there are the foamers. I have had enough
of this persons remarks so I thought I would demonstrate what a
foamer
Post by Mainlander
Patrick Dunford, Christchurch, NZ - http://pdunford.godzone.net.nz/
(If you wanna keep the peace on this group, then people in glashouses
shouldn't throw stones). You can chuck me out for this, I really
don't
Post by Mainlander
give a hoot. As usual everything was going along fine until the above
person put his boot in his mouth again.
GROW UP AND GET ON WITH IT PATRICK YOU LOSER.
Jack M
Would you like to state whether you are actually Jack, or Christine
Johnston
who also uses this e-mail address?


Also what is your problem? If you don't like it here just go away.


I have exercised a right of reply to two messages from Ms Johnston that
could only be described as outright provocation and stirring, in which
she
chose to name me personally and suggest that I should do this or that.
It's
a pity she doesn't take her own advice.


As far as I can see the number of posts being made by Ms Johnston and
the
number of photographs she has been putting into the files area
indicates she
wants to run this group. I don't think that is in the best interests
of this
group myself, but I don't really care now.


http://www.trainweb.org/nzrailways/Messages_04701_to_04800.html


----------------------
MESSAGE 4734
----------------------

From: "J 1200 NZGR"
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:06 am
Subject: HOW DARE YOU


How dare you insinuate that Mr "Dumford"! NO YOU ARE WRONG, IT WAS
NOT ME! I am not about to tolerate such insolence from a lump of
utter
animosity such as yourself, but I will hold my head above your type
this time, without replying with a return insult, although with such
provocation, I DAMNED WELL SHOULD. Keep me out of this please. GET ON
WITH PART 2 OF YOUR DG ARTICLE!


Chris. J


http://www.trainweb.org/nzrailways/Messages_04701_to_04800.html


----------------------
MESSAGE 4737
----------------------

From: "Patrick Dunford"
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:39 am
Subject: Re: HOW DARE YOU
Post by Mainlander
How dare you insinuate that Mr "Dumford"!
NO YOU ARE WRONG, IT WAS
Post by Mainlander
NOT ME! I am not about to tolerate such
insolence from a lump of
utter
Post by Mainlander
animosity such as yourself, but I will hold
my head above your type
Post by Mainlander
this time, without replying with a return
insult, although with
such
Post by Mainlander
provocation, I DAMNED WELL SHOULD. Keep me
out of this please. GET
ON
Post by Mainlander
WITH PART 2 OF YOUR DG ARTICLE!
LOL :)


Now seriously, you have used Mr M's e-mail
address in the past, and
quite recently, and I only recall Mr M ever
posting here twice
actually signed as Mr M. There have been more
posts from that address
from you than from Mr M. Furthermore Mr M.
chose to attack me
publicly in this list, twice, after I
privately e-mailed him
suggesting he was a liar.


I agree to keep you out of it if you agree to
stop posting
provocative messages suggesting I should do
this, or that, or
inferring/implying things about me or my
beliefs.


http://www.trainweb.org/nzrailways/Messages_04701_to_04800.html


----------------------
MESSAGE 4738
----------------------

From: "J 1200 NZGR"
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:44 am
Subject: Historical Items


Sorry folks. I have a stack of historical
railway items, many of
which would be of interest to members of this
group, especially re
signals and locomotives. Being a railway group,
why not post a few
railway pic's, it's a bit obvious why. I will
not be posting anything
of this nature again, historical or otherwise.
I'll leave you to get
on with your kiddie talk Patrick. As you have
an obvious dislike of
such, you can remove my photo's yourself! I
resent the false
accusations made against me.


Chris. J


http://www.trainweb.org/nzrailways/Messages_04701_to_04800.html


----------------------
MESSAGE 4751
----------------------

From: "Steve Brown"
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 8:09 pm
Subject: Re: Historical Items


You are incredible, someone does what this group
is all about, then you beat
them up for doing it.
Accusations of taking over the group because they
post a few piccies of
twains, sorta does not sound right.
You have lost the plot sunshine.
I suppose you belong to the flat earth society.
After reading the private E Mail YOU sent CHRIS
JOHNSON, I have to seriously
doubt the state of your sanity as well, but, as
you seem to be very unwell I
will give you the benefit of doubt and even more
reasonably will assist you
in visiting a medical professional to sort your
problems.
To this end, I wish to solemly suggest that all
members of this group
contribute a small donation to a CHCH based member
who will oversee the
complete operation. From information gleaned from
friends in the medical
field I would suggest that Patrick is overdue for
an Optorectomy.
This is most solemn and serious and should not be
treated as a joke as such.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Dunford"
To:
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 11:54 PM
Subject: [nzrailways] Re: Historical Items
Post by Mainlander
Post by Mark Newton
Sorry folks. I have a stack of historical
railway items, many of
Post by Mainlander
Post by Mark Newton
which would be of interest to members of this
group, especially re
Post by Mainlander
Post by Mark Newton
signals and locomotives. Being a railway
group, why not post a few
Post by Mainlander
Post by Mark Newton
railway pic's, it's a bit obvious why. I will
not be posting
Post by Mainlander
anything
Post by Mark Newton
of this nature again, historical or otherwise.
I'll leave you to
Post by Mainlander
get
Post by Mark Newton
on with your kiddie talk Patrick. As you have
an obvious dislike of
Post by Mainlander
Post by Mark Newton
such, you can remove my photo's yourself! I
resent the false
Post by Mainlander
Post by Mark Newton
accusations made against me.
http://www.trainweb.org/nzrailways/Messages_04701_to_04800.html


----------------------
MESSAGE 4752
----------------------

From: "Patrick Dunford"
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:30 pm
Subject: Re: Historical Items
Post by Mainlander
You are incredible, someone does what this group is
all about, then
you beat
Post by Mainlander
them up for doing it.
No I asked "them" to stop attacking me on this
newsgroup. You can
read the rest of the conversation at
http://www.egroups.com/messages/nzrailways-moderators/
Post by Mainlander
Accusations of taking over the group because they
post a few
piccies of
Post by Mainlander
twains, sorta does not sound right.
Actually she stated previously that no-one could tell
her what to do
in this group. That sounds like a fairly
straightforward claim to
authority.
Post by Mainlander
You have lost the plot sunshine.
I suppose you belong to the flat earth society.
After reading the private E Mail YOU sent CHRIS
JOHNSON,


Why did she send it to you?
Post by Mainlander
This is most solemn and serious and should not be
treated as a joke
Post by Mainlander
as such.
Oh of course. Tis the season to be jolly, tra la la
la la...


http://www.trainweb.org/nzrailways/Messages_04701_to_04800.html


From: "Jeff Davidson"
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 2:59 am
Subject: Re: [nzrailways] Re: Frothers & Foamers


Fred, Evan, Daniel et al,


I agree, this should not turn into a people bashing session. Patrick is
as
entitled to his opinions as anyone, however, when one or more
individuals
wish to dominate this group its time to take a look at our direction;
similarly I get a little tired of the "Chris J" group continually making
veiled comments and potshots at Ian Welch and MLS.


Patrick, if you want to be a polititian please go to the political news
group. Chris, (or whoever you all are at the same email terminal, and
I've
lost count trying to work out who you are) if you wish to dominate a
group:
go start one for yourself.


People we are here to talk trains: steam diesel electric I dont care,
but
hey, unless you have a really good joke to share, lets keep the topics
discussed relevant to this group.


Cheers,


Jeff


http://www.trainweb.org/nzrailways/Messages_04701_to_04800.html


----------------------
MESSAGE 4785
----------------------

From: "Simon Mann"
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 11:06 am
Subject: Re: [nzrailways] Frothers & Foamers


The path of the righteous man is be set on all sides by the tyrrany of
evil
men.


There has been alot of talk recently about the fact there are too many
different groups in such a small country, is there any wonder when this
kind
of thing s going on.


If Patrick represented Ferrymead and Chris J represented Steam inc at a
meeting for one large Society for the country then how much would get
done.


That is the reason I don't belong to any societys, groups etc.....


It's interestng what you read in this chat group for my own intrests
sake
but it just re inforces why I choose not to belong to any group.


Good hard boys you are really showing a side to rail nutting thats
really
appealing.


Amen to that brothers.


http://www.trainweb.org/nzrailways/Messages_04701_to_04800.html


----------------------
MESSAGE 4614
----------------------

From: "J 1200 NZGR"
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 12:38 pm
Subject: NZRail Politics


I note that there is another EGroup called
nzrail politics, which has
had only 3 messages for the whole of this
year. Perhaps Patrick might
like to start some "logical" arguments to get
this group off the
ground.


Chris. J


http://www.trainweb.org/nzrailways/Messages_04601_to_04700.html


----------------------
MESSAGE 4630
----------------------

From: "Patrick Dunford"
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 6:39 am
Subject: Re: NZRail Politics


As far as I can see, ChrisJ is stirring the pot
again, as she often
does. Why doesn't she post this kind of message
there instead.
Post by Mainlander
I started that Egroup a year ago to try and get
Patrick (and
others) to
Post by Mainlander
argue in there instead of in other groups.
Peter Wilson
http://www.trainweb.org/nzrailways/Messages_04601_to_04700.html


----------------------
MESSAGE 4695
----------------------

From: ***@h...
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 11:15 am
Subject: Frothers & Foamers


There are frothers and then there are the
foamers. I have had enough
of this persons remarks so I thought I would
demonstrate what a foamer
is. Here is an example of what a foamer is:


Patrick Dunford, Christchurch, NZ -
http://pdunford.godzone.net.nz/


(If you wanna keep the peace on this group,
then people in glashouses
shouldn't throw stones). You can chuck me out
for this, I really don't
give a hoot. As usual everything was going
along fine until the above
person put his boot in his mouth again.


GROW UP AND GET ON WITH IT PATRICK YOU LOSER.


Jack M


http://www.trainweb.org/nzrailways/Messages_04601_to_04700.html
Patrick Dunford
2003-07-27 06:20:55 UTC
Permalink
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.

ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.
Post by Mainlander
Post by Mark Newton
Post by Mark Newton
Post by Mainlander
The affairs of the group, which is a restricted membership list,
are not up for public discussion in any forum such as this. I
will simply note that the group is by far and away the most
popular group of its type in the NZ rail scene indicating a high
level of satisfaction by its members, who represent a wide cross
section of the rail enthusiast community in NZ. This would tend
to indicate that the comments made are not representative of the
experiences of most members.
Crikey dick, have youse jokers in Enzed still got trains to photograph, eh?
Yes, there are also heritage groups up and down the country with
activities going on.
With all the online bickering going on, I'm surprised any one has any
time available for photography, let alone preservation.
The situation has been greatly misrepresented. I could make the same
2003-07-27 06:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Dunford
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.
ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.
Sorry Patrick, but...

COPYRIGHT ACT 1994
PART 3 - ACTS PERMITTED IN RELATION TO COPYRIGHT WORKS
42. Criticism, review, and news reporting-

42.Criticism, review, and news reporting-

(1)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of criticism or review, of
that or another work or of a performance of a work, does not infringe
copyright in the work if such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient
acknowledgement.

(2)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of reporting current events by
means of a sound recording, film, broadcast, or cable programme does not
infringe copyright in the work.

(3)Fair dealing with a work (other than a photograph) for the purposes of
reporting current events by any means other than those referred to in
subsection (2) of this section does not infringe copyright in the work if
such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient acknowledgement.

The website is clearly acknowledged as a source of the material - it is
named, links are provided, and authors are appropriately attributed.

The point of websites is the dissemination of information.
2003-07-27 07:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Dunford
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.
ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.
Further on the matter or "Criticism, review, and news reporting" and
"Research or private study", look what else I just found on Google.....

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22patrick+dunford%22+mainlander&hl=en&lr=
&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3eea936e%40news.orcon.net.nz&rnum=5

From: Redbaiter (don'***@email.me)
Subject: Re: The Angry Left
View: Complete Thread (8 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: nz.politics, nz.general
Date: 2003-06-13 20:01:53 PST
Post by Patrick Dunford
What benefit are you on since you have the time to spend hours browsing
these sites looking for this material?
It's Saturday, dumbass.
"Mainlander" is the moron and cheat Patrick Dunford under
yet another nick. (who actually does not deny he is himself
on a benefit).

And who proves the absolute truth of the article by rather
than disagreeing with it, attacking the poster personally.

Leftists today are fascists.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22patrick+dunford%22+mainlander&hl=en&lr=
&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=MPG.19766b78a8680393989945%40news.paradise.net.nz&rn
um=8

From: Mainlander (*@*.*)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality.
View: Complete Thread (7 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: nz.soc.religion
Date: 2003-07-08 22:12:06 PST
Post by Patrick Dunford
To all fundametalists and homophobes I recomend the following which is a
letter from the mother of a homosexual. I won't reproduce it because it
is
Post by Patrick Dunford
copyright -
http://www.anzwers.org/free/jesuschrist/gayson.html
I hope it makes some narrow minds feels ashamed of their attitudes.
It is interesting how few self righteous Christians have answered this
post
Post by Patrick Dunford
especially Patrick Dunford alias Mainlander. He would deny homosexuals
employment and housing as he has said in the past. I think the Pharisees
are
Post by Patrick Dunford
still around.
Well now Bobby. The current law permits churches to exercise an
appropriate level of choice when employing people as church leaders. I am
all for that, as are most thinking people. Come on, you profess to be a
thinker of sorts, you can see the issues.

As far as housing goes, the house happens to be where most homosexuals
practice their sexual perversions and as such I support any notion at all
that the owner of a property should be able to say no to such things.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22patrick+dunford%22+mainlander&hl=en&lr=
&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=fmc5gv8rag3tpgu9mrsbu4peq8tn3ut6s9%404ax.com&rnum=4

From: David Pears (***@bigfoot.com.au)
Subject: Re: So much for the truce!!
View: Complete Thread (32 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: nz.general
Date: 2003-07-02 03:42:47 PST
Post by Patrick Dunford
I've never been harassed by anyone on line, left or right. On the
other hand, I exchange social e-mails with a few of the posters here
on a fairly regular basis. If you're scared of harassment, then I
suspect you are a very timid person.
I'm a family person. It isn't just about me.
And you have nothing to worry about on their behalf, since the chances
of them being harrassed for anything you say or do on a newsgroup is
something close to zero. Really. I have been here, off and on, for
seven or eight years and haven't had as much as a single angry e-mail
the whole time. Zip. Zero. None.

These groups have a succession of anonymous trolls and loons passing
thru, often changing their "name" as often as I change my socks. On
the whole their credibility is low, and I tend to kill file them as
soon as I spot them. Take Patrick Dunford for instance, currently
posting as Mainlander. Zero credibility. And killfiled as soon as I
worked out who he was this time. Or Scooter. Or any one of a hundred
forgettable here today gone tomorrow trolls and fools. But I don't
think I have any named poster in my kill file, and respect their right
to hold their views even when I disagree with them.

It is up to you, but I think you'd do yourself a world of good if you
changed your handle to your name.
Patrick Dunford
2003-07-27 06:26:13 UTC
Permalink
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.

ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.

In article <***@clear.net.nz>, <hahaha> says...
2003-07-27 06:53:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Dunford
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.
ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.
Sorry Patrick, but...

COPYRIGHT ACT 1994
PART 3 - ACTS PERMITTED IN RELATION TO COPYRIGHT WORKS
42. Criticism, review, and news reporting-

42.Criticism, review, and news reporting-

(1)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of criticism or review, of
that or another work or of a performance of a work, does not infringe
copyright in the work if such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient
acknowledgement.

(2)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of reporting current events by
means of a sound recording, film, broadcast, or cable programme does not
infringe copyright in the work.

(3)Fair dealing with a work (other than a photograph) for the purposes of
reporting current events by any means other than those referred to in
subsection (2) of this section does not infringe copyright in the work if
such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient acknowledgement.

The website is clearly acknowledged as a source of the material - it is
named, links are provided, and authors are appropriately attributed.

The point of websites is the dissemination of information.
2003-07-27 07:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by
Post by Patrick Dunford
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.
ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.
Sorry Patrick, but...
COPYRIGHT ACT 1994
PART 3 - ACTS PERMITTED IN RELATION TO COPYRIGHT WORKS
42. Criticism, review, and news reporting-
42.Criticism, review, and news reporting-
(1)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of criticism or review, of
that or another work or of a performance of a work, does not infringe
copyright in the work if such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient
acknowledgement.
(2)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of reporting current events by
means of a sound recording, film, broadcast, or cable programme does not
infringe copyright in the work.
(3)Fair dealing with a work (other than a photograph) for the purposes of
reporting current events by any means other than those referred to in
subsection (2) of this section does not infringe copyright in the work if
such fair dealing is accompanied by a sufficient acknowledgement.
The website is clearly acknowledged as a source of the material - it is
named, links are provided, and authors are appropriately attributed.
The point of websites is the dissemination of information.
Further,

http://www.legislation.govt.nz

COPYRIGHT ACT 1994
PART 3 - ACTS PERMITTED IN RELATION TO COPYRIGHT WORKS
43. Research or private study-

43.Research or private study-

(1)Fair dealing with a work for the purposes of research or private study
does not infringe copyright in the work.

(2)For the avoidance of doubt, it is hereby declared that fair dealing with
a published edition for the purposes of research or private study does not
infringe copyright in either the typographical arrangement of the edition or
any literary, dramatic, musical, or artistic work or part of a work in the
edition.

(3)In determining, for the purposes of subsection (1) of this section,
whether copying, by means of a reprographic process or by any other means,
constitutes fair dealing for the purposes of research or private study, a
court shall have regard to-

(a)The purpose of the copying; and

(b)The nature of the work copied; and

(c)Whether the work could have been obtained within a reasonable time at an
ordinary commercial price; and

(d)The effect of the copying on the potential market for, or value of, the
work; and

(e)Where part of a work is copied, the amount and substantiality of the
part copied taken in relation to the whole work.

(4)Nothing in this section authorises the making of more than one copy of
the same work, or the same part of a work, on any one occasion.
2003-07-27 07:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Dunford
BY REPRODUCING MATERIAL FROM THIS WEBSITE YOU ARE IN CLEAR BREACH OF THE
COPYRIGHT NOTICE DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE.
ACTION HAS BEEN INITIATED WITH YOUR ISP DUE TO CLEAR AND FLAGRANT BREACH
OF THE CLEARNET CUSTOMER TERMS AND CONDITIONS / ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY.
Further on the matter or "Criticism, review, and news reporting" and
"Research or private study", look what else I just found on Google.....

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22patrick+dunford%22+mainlander&hl=en&lr=
&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3eea936e%40news.orcon.net.nz&rnum=5

From: Redbaiter (don'***@email.me)
Subject: Re: The Angry Left
View: Complete Thread (8 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: nz.politics, nz.general
Date: 2003-06-13 20:01:53 PST
Post by Patrick Dunford
What benefit are you on since you have the time to spend hours browsing
these sites looking for this material?
It's Saturday, dumbass.
"Mainlander" is the moron and cheat Patrick Dunford under
yet another nick. (who actually does not deny he is himself
on a benefit).

And who proves the absolute truth of the article by rather
than disagreeing with it, attacking the poster personally.

Leftists today are fascists.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22patrick+dunford%22+mainlander&hl=en&lr=
&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=MPG.19766b78a8680393989945%40news.paradise.net.nz&rn
um=8

From: Mainlander (*@*.*)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality.
View: Complete Thread (7 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: nz.soc.religion
Date: 2003-07-08 22:12:06 PST
Post by Patrick Dunford
To all fundametalists and homophobes I recomend the following which is a
letter from the mother of a homosexual. I won't reproduce it because it
is
Post by Patrick Dunford
copyright -
http://www.anzwers.org/free/jesuschrist/gayson.html
I hope it makes some narrow minds feels ashamed of their attitudes.
It is interesting how few self righteous Christians have answered this
post
Post by Patrick Dunford
especially Patrick Dunford alias Mainlander. He would deny homosexuals
employment and housing as he has said in the past. I think the Pharisees
are
Post by Patrick Dunford
still around.
Well now Bobby. The current law permits churches to exercise an
appropriate level of choice when employing people as church leaders. I am
all for that, as are most thinking people. Come on, you profess to be a
thinker of sorts, you can see the issues.

As far as housing goes, the house happens to be where most homosexuals
practice their sexual perversions and as such I support any notion at all
that the owner of a property should be able to say no to such things.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22patrick+dunford%22+mainlander&hl=en&lr=
&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=fmc5gv8rag3tpgu9mrsbu4peq8tn3ut6s9%404ax.com&rnum=4

From: David Pears (***@bigfoot.com.au)
Subject: Re: So much for the truce!!
View: Complete Thread (32 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: nz.general
Date: 2003-07-02 03:42:47 PST
Post by Patrick Dunford
I've never been harassed by anyone on line, left or right. On the
other hand, I exchange social e-mails with a few of the posters here
on a fairly regular basis. If you're scared of harassment, then I
suspect you are a very timid person.
I'm a family person. It isn't just about me.
And you have nothing to worry about on their behalf, since the chances
of them being harrassed for anything you say or do on a newsgroup is
something close to zero. Really. I have been here, off and on, for
seven or eight years and haven't had as much as a single angry e-mail
the whole time. Zip. Zero. None.

These groups have a succession of anonymous trolls and loons passing
thru, often changing their "name" as often as I change my socks. On
the whole their credibility is low, and I tend to kill file them as
soon as I spot them. Take Patrick Dunford for instance, currently
posting as Mainlander. Zero credibility. And killfiled as soon as I
worked out who he was this time. Or Scooter. Or any one of a hundred
forgettable here today gone tomorrow trolls and fools. But I don't
think I have any named poster in my kill file, and respect their right
to hold their views even when I disagree with them.

It is up to you, but I think you'd do yourself a world of good if you
changed your handle to your name.
Mark Newton
2003-07-27 08:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mainlander
Post by Mark Newton
Post by Mark Newton
Crikey dick, have youse jokers in Enzed still got trains to
photograph, eh?
Yes, there are also heritage groups up and down the country with
activities going on.
With all the online bickering going on, I'm surprised any one has
any time available for photography, let alone preservation.
The situation has been greatly misrepresented. I could make the same
observation from the activities of a small group of flame artists
who post in aus.rail and I'm sure they would be promptly disowned by
the heritage rail operators and reputable clubs.
You're sure, are you? Some of the "flame artists" on aus.rail are
heavily involved with heritage rail operators an/or reputable clubs
- yet I see no sign of them being disowned.
Post by Mainlander
I mean what is this website www.ptua.net supposed to achieve?
Who knows, who cares? Ask the author of that site, if you really must know.

But on that note, what is all the argy-bargy being crossposted to
aus.rail supposed to achieve?

Mark Newton.
Ja1271
2003-07-26 12:46:26 UTC
Permalink
The following are Yahoo Groups which contain pix and news of the NZ railway
scene which might be of interest to railfans:

Tranz Rail (National Freight Operator):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tranzrailphotographers/

Preserved steam and heritage railways:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nzht-rail/

Locomotives & rosters etc:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newzealandlocomotives/

Chris. J
Ja1271
2003-07-25 03:40:34 UTC
Permalink
The person writing the original complaint is one very, very sick individual.
He has started up opposition groups and failed, hence his bitterness and
personal attacks on others. Ignore him, people like this are simply not
worth wasting your time over. He could very well find himself in court on a
charge of defamation, so my advice is to stay right away from the likes of
him.

CHRIS.
Post by starwars
The group is named "Tranzrailphotographers" and is described on the Home Page
as a "friendly group" but this seems to be a misnomer and is far from the truth.
Instead the message area often seems to be dominated by "turf wars".
So what?
Its a yahoo group, if you dont like it, leave and start your own.
Captain Beaky
2003-07-25 23:51:35 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:40:34 +1200, "Ja1271"
Post by Ja1271
The person writing the original complaint is one very, very sick individual.
He has started up opposition groups and failed, hence his bitterness and
personal attacks on others. Ignore him, people like this are simply not
worth wasting your time over. He could very well find himself in court on a
charge of defamation, so my advice is to stay right away from the likes of
him.
CHRIS.
Just for the process of elucidation, are you the Christine Johnson
referred to in the original post?
Loading...