Discussion:
Government should work for all New Zealanders . .
(too old to reply)
Rich80105
2024-07-07 09:31:46 UTC
Permalink
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/

This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.

Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Crash
2024-07-07 21:01:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.

The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
--
Crash McBash
Rich80105
2024-07-08 08:31:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
See:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/

The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified. We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.

I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.

If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
Crash
2024-07-08 09:45:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.

I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
--
Crash McBash
Rich80105
2024-07-08 22:30:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads. We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now), but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
Crash
2024-07-09 00:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads.
See my earlier post. If I do this, you will ignore it as it does not
support your political rhetoric.
Post by Rich80105
We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now),
A prime example of your rhetoric. Why bother responding to such
juvenile language?
Post by Rich80105
but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
--
Crash McBash
Rich80105
2024-07-09 00:32:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads.
See my earlier post. If I do this, you will ignore it as it does not
support your political rhetoric.
So all you have given is political rhetoric. You cannot back up your
claim that rail has not been profitable, or give an equivalent
calculation for roads. Is political rhetoric all you have, Crash?
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now),
A prime example of your rhetoric. Why bother responding to such
juvenile language?
Post by Rich80105
but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
Tony
2024-07-09 01:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads.
See my earlier post. If I do this, you will ignore it as it does not
support your political rhetoric.
So all you have given is political rhetoric. You cannot back up your
claim that rail has not been profitable, or give an equivalent
calculation for roads. Is political rhetoric all you have, Crash?
You are pathetic. Anybody with a modicum of intelliuence and integrity knows
that Crash is not poilitcally driven.
You lost and now you are getting nasty.
People that do everything based on political doctrines are fools, you are one
such.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now),
A prime example of your rhetoric. Why bother responding to such
juvenile language?
Post by Rich80105
but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
Crash
2024-07-09 02:52:57 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 01:24:35 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads.
See my earlier post. If I do this, you will ignore it as it does not
support your political rhetoric.
So all you have given is political rhetoric. You cannot back up your
claim that rail has not been profitable, or give an equivalent
calculation for roads. Is political rhetoric all you have, Crash?
You are pathetic. Anybody with a modicum of intelliuence and integrity knows
that Crash is not poilitcally driven.
You lost and now you are getting nasty.
People that do everything based on political doctrines are fools, you are one
such.
That's about the sum of it Tony. Rich cannot see that what he
considers to be clever verbal gymnastics is in fact childish nonsense.
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now),
A prime example of your rhetoric. Why bother responding to such
juvenile language?
Post by Rich80105
but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
--
Crash McBash
Gordon
2024-07-09 02:53:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads. We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now), but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
If we step back and accept that any country needs transport for goods and
services we can then put the options on the table and start a discussion as
to the mix, if any we should use.

History has dictated that we have railways as turcks as we now then today,
did not exist as the trains powered by steam were hauling all that coal,
among other items across the country.
Rich80105
2024-07-09 10:42:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads. We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now), but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
If we step back and accept that any country needs transport for goods and
services we can then put the options on the table and start a discussion as
to the mix, if any we should use.
History has dictated that we have railways as turcks as we now then today,
did not exist as the trains powered by steam were hauling all that coal,
among other items across the country.
The different types of transport have developed differently - Air is
the only one that is almost all privately owned (albeit with
occasional bail-outs!). The economics of large road projects are
relatively simple - arrange the finance, get a good design and get it
done with ongoing systems to ensure that it is built to agreed
standards. Each step is important, but the big issues are getting
each step at the lowest possible price while not sacrificing quality.

The Kaikoura highway recover from the earthquake had to be done
quickly, so it was financed using government money (at a lower rate
than can be provided by any other New Zealand organisation, it was
managed by Engineers who were on site to monitor work as it was done
while planning the next step (urgent completion was a factor there).
Suppliers were sourced competitively - as much because they did not
know what they would need for later stages, but competitive
purchasing did keep costs low. Contractors were hired for each stage
so there was competitive tendering, and the knowledge that good
service may assist future contracts.

Compare with a PPP - a single provider of finance at a higher rate
than government needs to pay. A single supplier of both labour and
materials based on a single price with escalation clauses, in some
cases with part of the cost being met by future tolls. That cuts out
flexibility, but also limits the number of tenderers, and with a big
contract, there are inevitably variations that will get fought for an
increased price - through the courts if necessary.

Most contracts are somewhere in between - but the Kapiti expressway
had an additional difficulty in that the consortium was structures in
such a way that the tenderers could effectively shut down their
organisation and walk away at any point - it made it difficult to gain
the trust of sub-contractors, who had seen a spate of building
contracts being closed down with subbies losing both payment for work
done and a big fight for getting their working tools back.

In some countries, PPP will be accounted for by the government as an
asset as work progresses, with the cost of say future tolls not
allowed for until later - in effect the true costs gets hidden for
years; the UK Tories found themselves having to wear disappointment in
some projects as they were in government for long enough for the true
cost to be identified - Thames Water is an example of how it can all
go wrong - we should prefer the Scottish Water model that delivers
water at a significantly lower cost through a better and more
appropriate structure. Here is New Zealand the government accounting
rules require future commitments to be included as a cost (discounted
appropriately for time) in the government accounts, so our governments
cannot hide from those future commitments, but that economic reality
may not be well comprehended by those that see other governments only
having to account for these contracts as they have to make payments.

All of the above consideration apply to all governments, regardless of
which parties are involved, so the economics are more important than
the politics.

Rail offers some advantages over roads - for most routes the lines are
more stable than many of the roads; certainly the metal rails are
longer lasting than asphalt, and can take heavier loads without
significant additional deterioration. Rail takes traffic away from
congested routes, but does suit some items better than others.
Tony
2024-07-09 21:41:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads. We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now), but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
If we step back and accept that any country needs transport for goods and
services we can then put the options on the table and start a discussion as
to the mix, if any we should use.
History has dictated that we have railways as turcks as we now then today,
did not exist as the trains powered by steam were hauling all that coal,
among other items across the country.
The different types of transport have developed differently - Air is
the only one that is almost all privately owned (albeit with
occasional bail-outs!). The economics of large road projects are
relatively simple - arrange the finance, get a good design and get it
done with ongoing systems to ensure that it is built to agreed
standards. Each step is important, but the big issues are getting
each step at the lowest possible price while not sacrificing quality.
The Kaikoura highway recover from the earthquake had to be done
quickly, so it was financed using government money (at a lower rate
than can be provided by any other New Zealand organisation, it was
managed by Engineers who were on site to monitor work as it was done
while planning the next step (urgent completion was a factor there).
Suppliers were sourced competitively - as much because they did not
know what they would need for later stages, but competitive
purchasing did keep costs low. Contractors were hired for each stage
so there was competitive tendering, and the knowledge that good
service may assist future contracts.
Compare with a PPP - a single provider of finance at a higher rate
than government needs to pay. A single supplier of both labour and
materials based on a single price with escalation clauses, in some
cases with part of the cost being met by future tolls. That cuts out
flexibility, but also limits the number of tenderers, and with a big
contract, there are inevitably variations that will get fought for an
increased price - through the courts if necessary.
Most contracts are somewhere in between - but the Kapiti expressway
had an additional difficulty in that the consortium was structures in
such a way that the tenderers could effectively shut down their
organisation and walk away at any point
I believe that is completely incorrect. The first part of the kapiti expressway
(M2PP )was managed by an alliance of four major parties with financial
involvement (including NZTA) plus the Kapiti Council (which had no financial
ris). The alliance was constructed so that none of those could sue the others
and they could not walk away. I think you are thinking of a different task.
Post by Rich80105
- it made it difficult to gain
the trust of sub-contractors, who had seen a spate of building
contracts being closed down with subbies losing both payment for work
done and a big fight for getting their working tools back.
In some countries, PPP will be accounted for by the government as an
asset as work progresses, with the cost of say future tolls not
allowed for until later - in effect the true costs gets hidden for
years; the UK Tories found themselves having to wear disappointment in
some projects as they were in government for long enough for the true
cost to be identified - Thames Water is an example of how it can all
go wrong - we should prefer the Scottish Water model that delivers
water at a significantly lower cost through a better and more
appropriate structure. Here is New Zealand the government accounting
rules require future commitments to be included as a cost (discounted
appropriately for time) in the government accounts, so our governments
cannot hide from those future commitments, but that economic reality
may not be well comprehended by those that see other governments only
having to account for these contracts as they have to make payments.
All of the above consideration apply to all governments, regardless of
which parties are involved, so the economics are more important than
the politics.
Rail offers some advantages over roads - for most routes the lines are
more stable than many of the roads; certainly the metal rails are
longer lasting than asphalt, and can take heavier loads without
significant additional deterioration. Rail takes traffic away from
congested routes, but does suit some items better than others.
Rich80105
2024-07-10 00:04:12 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 21:41:21 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads. We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now), but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
If we step back and accept that any country needs transport for goods and
services we can then put the options on the table and start a discussion as
to the mix, if any we should use.
History has dictated that we have railways as turcks as we now then today,
did not exist as the trains powered by steam were hauling all that coal,
among other items across the country.
The different types of transport have developed differently - Air is
the only one that is almost all privately owned (albeit with
occasional bail-outs!). The economics of large road projects are
relatively simple - arrange the finance, get a good design and get it
done with ongoing systems to ensure that it is built to agreed
standards. Each step is important, but the big issues are getting
each step at the lowest possible price while not sacrificing quality.
The Kaikoura highway recover from the earthquake had to be done
quickly, so it was financed using government money (at a lower rate
than can be provided by any other New Zealand organisation, it was
managed by Engineers who were on site to monitor work as it was done
while planning the next step (urgent completion was a factor there).
Suppliers were sourced competitively - as much because they did not
know what they would need for later stages, but competitive
purchasing did keep costs low. Contractors were hired for each stage
so there was competitive tendering, and the knowledge that good
service may assist future contracts.
Compare with a PPP - a single provider of finance at a higher rate
than government needs to pay. A single supplier of both labour and
materials based on a single price with escalation clauses, in some
cases with part of the cost being met by future tolls. That cuts out
flexibility, but also limits the number of tenderers, and with a big
contract, there are inevitably variations that will get fought for an
increased price - through the courts if necessary.
Most contracts are somewhere in between - but the Kapiti expressway
had an additional difficulty in that the consortium was structures in
such a way that the tenderers could effectively shut down their
organisation and walk away at any point
I believe that is completely incorrect. The first part of the kapiti expressway
(M2PP )was managed by an alliance of four major parties with financial
involvement (including NZTA) plus the Kapiti Council (which had no financial
ris). The alliance was constructed so that none of those could sue the others
and they could not walk away. I think you are thinking of a different task.
No. The consortium was through a new entity with four parties on one
side and NZTA / Government on the other. If the contract had looked
like creating huge losses for the consortium, they could have just
walked away, although there would have been reputational risk. I know
well one company that refused to get involved because of the risk, and
he knew quite a few other potential sub-contractors that did not get
involved for the same reason
See
https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/01-04-2022/the-true-costs-and-benefits-of-transmission-gully
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/local-papers/kapiti-observer/7990653/Kapiti-Express-to-be-completed-by-2020
https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=160454
https://contractormag.co.nz/contractor/transmission-gully/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%81piti_Expressway
https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-post-1022/20131204/282149289110225

One thing is clear - it was funded through borrowed money, with the
deal being acceptable for ACC to invest in it to get commercial
returns. If you assume that the consortium borrowed at say 0.5% above
the rate that the government could have borrowed, that is quite a few
million dollars of cost that would not have been incurred had the
government funded it directly.
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- it made it difficult to gain
the trust of sub-contractors, who had seen a spate of building
contracts being closed down with subbies losing both payment for work
done and a big fight for getting their working tools back.
In some countries, PPP will be accounted for by the government as an
asset as work progresses, with the cost of say future tolls not
allowed for until later - in effect the true costs gets hidden for
years; the UK Tories found themselves having to wear disappointment in
some projects as they were in government for long enough for the true
cost to be identified - Thames Water is an example of how it can all
go wrong - we should prefer the Scottish Water model that delivers
water at a significantly lower cost through a better and more
appropriate structure. Here is New Zealand the government accounting
rules require future commitments to be included as a cost (discounted
appropriately for time) in the government accounts, so our governments
cannot hide from those future commitments, but that economic reality
may not be well comprehended by those that see other governments only
having to account for these contracts as they have to make payments.
All of the above consideration apply to all governments, regardless of
which parties are involved, so the economics are more important than
the politics.
Rail offers some advantages over roads - for most routes the lines are
more stable than many of the roads; certainly the metal rails are
longer lasting than asphalt, and can take heavier loads without
significant additional deterioration. Rail takes traffic away from
congested routes, but does suit some items better than others.
Tony
2024-07-10 00:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 21:41:21 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads. We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now), but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
If we step back and accept that any country needs transport for goods and
services we can then put the options on the table and start a discussion as
to the mix, if any we should use.
History has dictated that we have railways as turcks as we now then today,
did not exist as the trains powered by steam were hauling all that coal,
among other items across the country.
The different types of transport have developed differently - Air is
the only one that is almost all privately owned (albeit with
occasional bail-outs!). The economics of large road projects are
relatively simple - arrange the finance, get a good design and get it
done with ongoing systems to ensure that it is built to agreed
standards. Each step is important, but the big issues are getting
each step at the lowest possible price while not sacrificing quality.
The Kaikoura highway recover from the earthquake had to be done
quickly, so it was financed using government money (at a lower rate
than can be provided by any other New Zealand organisation, it was
managed by Engineers who were on site to monitor work as it was done
while planning the next step (urgent completion was a factor there).
Suppliers were sourced competitively - as much because they did not
know what they would need for later stages, but competitive
purchasing did keep costs low. Contractors were hired for each stage
so there was competitive tendering, and the knowledge that good
service may assist future contracts.
Compare with a PPP - a single provider of finance at a higher rate
than government needs to pay. A single supplier of both labour and
materials based on a single price with escalation clauses, in some
cases with part of the cost being met by future tolls. That cuts out
flexibility, but also limits the number of tenderers, and with a big
contract, there are inevitably variations that will get fought for an
increased price - through the courts if necessary.
Most contracts are somewhere in between - but the Kapiti expressway
had an additional difficulty in that the consortium was structures in
such a way that the tenderers could effectively shut down their
organisation and walk away at any point
I believe that is completely incorrect. The first part of the kapiti expressway
(M2PP )was managed by an alliance of four major parties with financial
involvement (including NZTA) plus the Kapiti Council (which had no financial
ris). The alliance was constructed so that none of those could sue the others
and they could not walk away. I think you are thinking of a different task.
No. The consortium was through a new entity with four parties on one
side and NZTA / Government on the other. If the contract had looked
like creating huge losses for the consortium, they could have just
walked away, although there would have been reputational risk. I know
well one company that refused to get involved because of the risk, and
he knew quite a few other potential sub-contractors that did not get
involved for the same reason
No there were three distict and legally seperate tasks. The first was M2PP and
that was an alliance and nobody could walk away. That is a fact.
The second and third were PP2O and Transmission gully, you are lumping them all
together when they were not in any way related except that they had to join
each other.
Post by Rich80105
See
https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/01-04-2022/the-true-costs-and-benefits-of-transmission-gully
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/local-papers/kapiti-observer/7990653/Kapiti-Express-to-be-completed-by-2020
https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=160454
https://contractormag.co.nz/contractor/transmission-gully/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%81piti_Expressway
https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-post-1022/20131204/282149289110225
None of which address the Alliance issue.
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/wellington-northern-corridor/mackays-to-peka-peka/construction-phase/
Post by Rich80105
One thing is clear - it was funded through borrowed money, with the
deal being acceptable for ACC to invest in it to get commercial
returns. If you assume that the consortium borrowed at say 0.5% above
the rate that the government could have borrowed, that is quite a few
million dollars of cost that would not have been incurred had the
government funded it directly.
The government has just so much money, haven't you learned that yet?
They (we) cannot and should not fund everythinmg for goodness sake.
Particularly a government like the last one that put us in hock for decades.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- it made it difficult to gain
the trust of sub-contractors, who had seen a spate of building
contracts being closed down with subbies losing both payment for work
done and a big fight for getting their working tools back.
In some countries, PPP will be accounted for by the government as an
asset as work progresses, with the cost of say future tolls not
allowed for until later - in effect the true costs gets hidden for
years; the UK Tories found themselves having to wear disappointment in
some projects as they were in government for long enough for the true
cost to be identified - Thames Water is an example of how it can all
go wrong - we should prefer the Scottish Water model that delivers
water at a significantly lower cost through a better and more
appropriate structure. Here is New Zealand the government accounting
rules require future commitments to be included as a cost (discounted
appropriately for time) in the government accounts, so our governments
cannot hide from those future commitments, but that economic reality
may not be well comprehended by those that see other governments only
having to account for these contracts as they have to make payments.
All of the above consideration apply to all governments, regardless of
which parties are involved, so the economics are more important than
the politics.
Rail offers some advantages over roads - for most routes the lines are
more stable than many of the roads; certainly the metal rails are
longer lasting than asphalt, and can take heavier loads without
significant additional deterioration. Rail takes traffic away from
congested routes, but does suit some items better than others.
Rich80105
2024-07-10 01:57:33 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 00:37:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 21:41:21 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads. We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now), but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
If we step back and accept that any country needs transport for goods and
services we can then put the options on the table and start a discussion as
to the mix, if any we should use.
History has dictated that we have railways as turcks as we now then today,
did not exist as the trains powered by steam were hauling all that coal,
among other items across the country.
The different types of transport have developed differently - Air is
the only one that is almost all privately owned (albeit with
occasional bail-outs!). The economics of large road projects are
relatively simple - arrange the finance, get a good design and get it
done with ongoing systems to ensure that it is built to agreed
standards. Each step is important, but the big issues are getting
each step at the lowest possible price while not sacrificing quality.
The Kaikoura highway recover from the earthquake had to be done
quickly, so it was financed using government money (at a lower rate
than can be provided by any other New Zealand organisation, it was
managed by Engineers who were on site to monitor work as it was done
while planning the next step (urgent completion was a factor there).
Suppliers were sourced competitively - as much because they did not
know what they would need for later stages, but competitive
purchasing did keep costs low. Contractors were hired for each stage
so there was competitive tendering, and the knowledge that good
service may assist future contracts.
Compare with a PPP - a single provider of finance at a higher rate
than government needs to pay. A single supplier of both labour and
materials based on a single price with escalation clauses, in some
cases with part of the cost being met by future tolls. That cuts out
flexibility, but also limits the number of tenderers, and with a big
contract, there are inevitably variations that will get fought for an
increased price - through the courts if necessary.
Most contracts are somewhere in between - but the Kapiti expressway
had an additional difficulty in that the consortium was structures in
such a way that the tenderers could effectively shut down their
organisation and walk away at any point
I believe that is completely incorrect. The first part of the kapiti expressway
(M2PP )was managed by an alliance of four major parties with financial
involvement (including NZTA) plus the Kapiti Council (which had no financial
ris). The alliance was constructed so that none of those could sue the others
and they could not walk away. I think you are thinking of a different task.
No. The consortium was through a new entity with four parties on one
side and NZTA / Government on the other. If the contract had looked
like creating huge losses for the consortium, they could have just
walked away, although there would have been reputational risk. I know
well one company that refused to get involved because of the risk, and
he knew quite a few other potential sub-contractors that did not get
involved for the same reason
No there were three distict and legally seperate tasks. The first was M2PP and
that was an alliance and nobody could walk away. That is a fact.
That is the contract I was talking about, and I know that some people
declined to work on it because it was not watertight. The consortium
did eventually pull out with work still to be done.
Post by Tony
The second and third were PP2O and Transmission gully, you are lumping them all
together when they were not in any way related except that they had to join
each other.
Post by Rich80105
See
https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/01-04-2022/the-true-costs-and-benefits-of-transmission-gully
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/local-papers/kapiti-observer/7990653/Kapiti-Express-to-be-completed-by-2020
https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=160454
https://contractormag.co.nz/contractor/transmission-gully/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%81piti_Expressway
https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-post-1022/20131204/282149289110225
None of which address the Alliance issue.
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/wellington-northern-corridor/mackays-to-peka-peka/construction-phase/
Post by Rich80105
One thing is clear - it was funded through borrowed money, with the
deal being acceptable for ACC to invest in it to get commercial
returns. If you assume that the consortium borrowed at say 0.5% above
the rate that the government could have borrowed, that is quite a few
million dollars of cost that would not have been incurred had the
government funded it directly.
The government has just so much money, haven't you learned that yet?
They (we) cannot and should not fund everythinmg for goodness sake.
Particularly a government like the last one that put us in hock for decades.
Instead of borrowing at government to government rates, the consortium
borrowed at higher rates, and yes that was all paid for by the
government. One reason for doing it was the belief that it would show
less borrowing in government books, but for New Zealand that was a
fallacy. The other reason right leaning governments like such
contracts is that they pass more money on to businesses and banks . .
.
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- it made it difficult to gain
the trust of sub-contractors, who had seen a spate of building
contracts being closed down with subbies losing both payment for work
done and a big fight for getting their working tools back.
In some countries, PPP will be accounted for by the government as an
asset as work progresses, with the cost of say future tolls not
allowed for until later - in effect the true costs gets hidden for
years; the UK Tories found themselves having to wear disappointment in
some projects as they were in government for long enough for the true
cost to be identified - Thames Water is an example of how it can all
go wrong - we should prefer the Scottish Water model that delivers
water at a significantly lower cost through a better and more
appropriate structure. Here is New Zealand the government accounting
rules require future commitments to be included as a cost (discounted
appropriately for time) in the government accounts, so our governments
cannot hide from those future commitments, but that economic reality
may not be well comprehended by those that see other governments only
having to account for these contracts as they have to make payments.
All of the above consideration apply to all governments, regardless of
which parties are involved, so the economics are more important than
the politics.
Rail offers some advantages over roads - for most routes the lines are
more stable than many of the roads; certainly the metal rails are
longer lasting than asphalt, and can take heavier loads without
significant additional deterioration. Rail takes traffic away from
congested routes, but does suit some items better than others.
Tony
2024-07-10 02:15:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 00:37:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 21:41:21 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity!
The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads. We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now), but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
If we step back and accept that any country needs transport for goods and
services we can then put the options on the table and start a discussion as
to the mix, if any we should use.
History has dictated that we have railways as turcks as we now then today,
did not exist as the trains powered by steam were hauling all that coal,
among other items across the country.
The different types of transport have developed differently - Air is
the only one that is almost all privately owned (albeit with
occasional bail-outs!). The economics of large road projects are
relatively simple - arrange the finance, get a good design and get it
done with ongoing systems to ensure that it is built to agreed
standards. Each step is important, but the big issues are getting
each step at the lowest possible price while not sacrificing quality.
The Kaikoura highway recover from the earthquake had to be done
quickly, so it was financed using government money (at a lower rate
than can be provided by any other New Zealand organisation, it was
managed by Engineers who were on site to monitor work as it was done
while planning the next step (urgent completion was a factor there).
Suppliers were sourced competitively - as much because they did not
know what they would need for later stages, but competitive
purchasing did keep costs low. Contractors were hired for each stage
so there was competitive tendering, and the knowledge that good
service may assist future contracts.
Compare with a PPP - a single provider of finance at a higher rate
than government needs to pay. A single supplier of both labour and
materials based on a single price with escalation clauses, in some
cases with part of the cost being met by future tolls. That cuts out
flexibility, but also limits the number of tenderers, and with a big
contract, there are inevitably variations that will get fought for an
increased price - through the courts if necessary.
Most contracts are somewhere in between - but the Kapiti expressway
had an additional difficulty in that the consortium was structures in
such a way that the tenderers could effectively shut down their
organisation and walk away at any point
I believe that is completely incorrect. The first part of the kapiti expressway
(M2PP )was managed by an alliance of four major parties with financial
involvement (including NZTA) plus the Kapiti Council (which had no financial
ris). The alliance was constructed so that none of those could sue the others
and they could not walk away. I think you are thinking of a different task.
No. The consortium was through a new entity with four parties on one
side and NZTA / Government on the other. If the contract had looked
like creating huge losses for the consortium, they could have just
walked away, although there would have been reputational risk. I know
well one company that refused to get involved because of the risk, and
he knew quite a few other potential sub-contractors that did not get
involved for the same reason
No there were three distinct and legally seperate tasks. The first was M2PP
and
that was an alliance and nobody could walk away. That is a fact.
That is the contract I was talking about, and I know that some people
declined to work on it because it was not watertight. The consortium
did eventually pull out with work still to be done.
Incorrect - Nobody was able to walk away from it. It worked extremely well and
they were contractually required to sort out any differences - they did so.
That\ is a fact. You can lie your childish lies but you got it wrong.
It was not a consortium (which is entirely different to an alliance), nobody
pulled out and nobody who signed up declined to work on it.
You are an impossible man - your lies are all you have.
How do I know this? I was intimately involved.
Post by Rich80105
The second and third were PP2O and Transmission gully, you are lumping them all
together when they were not in any way related except that they had to join
each other.
Post by Rich80105
See
https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/01-04-2022/the-true-costs-and-benefits-of-transmission-gully
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/local-papers/kapiti-observer/7990653/Kapiti-Express-to-be-completed-by-2020
https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=160454
https://contractormag.co.nz/contractor/transmission-gully/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%81piti_Expressway
https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-post-1022/20131204/282149289110225
None of which address the Alliance issue.
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/wellington-northern-corridor/mackays-to-peka-peka/construction-phase/
Post by Rich80105
One thing is clear - it was funded through borrowed money, with the
deal being acceptable for ACC to invest in it to get commercial
returns. If you assume that the consortium borrowed at say 0.5% above
the rate that the government could have borrowed, that is quite a few
million dollars of cost that would not have been incurred had the
government funded it directly.
The government has just so much money, haven't you learned that yet?
They (we) cannot and should not fund everythinmg for goodness sake.
Particularly a government like the last one that put us in hock for decades.
Instead of borrowing at government to government rates, the consortium
borrowed at higher rates, and yes that was all paid for by the
government. One reason for doing it was the belief that it would show
less borrowing in government books, but for New Zealand that was a
fallacy. The other reason right leaning governments like such
contracts is that they pass more money on to businesses and banks . .
I repeat it was not a consortium, do some research. It was an alliance which
has legal implications.
You know nothing about what happened. You are making shit up.
Governments should not fund everything except in your personal fantasy utopia.
Post by Rich80105
.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- it made it difficult to gain
the trust of sub-contractors, who had seen a spate of building
contracts being closed down with subbies losing both payment for work
done and a big fight for getting their working tools back.
In some countries, PPP will be accounted for by the government as an
asset as work progresses, with the cost of say future tolls not
allowed for until later - in effect the true costs gets hidden for
years; the UK Tories found themselves having to wear disappointment in
some projects as they were in government for long enough for the true
cost to be identified - Thames Water is an example of how it can all
go wrong - we should prefer the Scottish Water model that delivers
water at a significantly lower cost through a better and more
appropriate structure. Here is New Zealand the government accounting
rules require future commitments to be included as a cost (discounted
appropriately for time) in the government accounts, so our governments
cannot hide from those future commitments, but that economic reality
may not be well comprehended by those that see other governments only
having to account for these contracts as they have to make payments.
All of the above consideration apply to all governments, regardless of
which parties are involved, so the economics are more important than
the politics.
Rail offers some advantages over roads - for most routes the lines are
more stable than many of the roads; certainly the metal rails are
longer lasting than asphalt, and can take heavier loads without
significant additional deterioration. Rail takes traffic away from
congested routes, but does suit some items better than others.
Rich80105
2024-07-10 08:44:51 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 02:15:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 00:37:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 21:41:21 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity!
The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
Post by Crash
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads. We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now), but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
If we step back and accept that any country needs transport for goods and
services we can then put the options on the table and start a discussion as
to the mix, if any we should use.
History has dictated that we have railways as turcks as we now then today,
did not exist as the trains powered by steam were hauling all that coal,
among other items across the country.
The different types of transport have developed differently - Air is
the only one that is almost all privately owned (albeit with
occasional bail-outs!). The economics of large road projects are
relatively simple - arrange the finance, get a good design and get it
done with ongoing systems to ensure that it is built to agreed
standards. Each step is important, but the big issues are getting
each step at the lowest possible price while not sacrificing quality.
The Kaikoura highway recover from the earthquake had to be done
quickly, so it was financed using government money (at a lower rate
than can be provided by any other New Zealand organisation, it was
managed by Engineers who were on site to monitor work as it was done
while planning the next step (urgent completion was a factor there).
Suppliers were sourced competitively - as much because they did not
know what they would need for later stages, but competitive
purchasing did keep costs low. Contractors were hired for each stage
so there was competitive tendering, and the knowledge that good
service may assist future contracts.
Compare with a PPP - a single provider of finance at a higher rate
than government needs to pay. A single supplier of both labour and
materials based on a single price with escalation clauses, in some
cases with part of the cost being met by future tolls. That cuts out
flexibility, but also limits the number of tenderers, and with a big
contract, there are inevitably variations that will get fought for an
increased price - through the courts if necessary.
Most contracts are somewhere in between - but the Kapiti expressway
had an additional difficulty in that the consortium was structures in
such a way that the tenderers could effectively shut down their
organisation and walk away at any point
I believe that is completely incorrect. The first part of the kapiti expressway
(M2PP )was managed by an alliance of four major parties with financial
involvement (including NZTA) plus the Kapiti Council (which had no financial
ris). The alliance was constructed so that none of those could sue the others
and they could not walk away. I think you are thinking of a different task.
No. The consortium was through a new entity with four parties on one
side and NZTA / Government on the other. If the contract had looked
like creating huge losses for the consortium, they could have just
walked away, although there would have been reputational risk. I know
well one company that refused to get involved because of the risk, and
he knew quite a few other potential sub-contractors that did not get
involved for the same reason
No there were three distinct and legally seperate tasks. The first was M2PP
and
that was an alliance and nobody could walk away. That is a fact.
That is the contract I was talking about, and I know that some people
declined to work on it because it was not watertight. The consortium
did eventually pull out with work still to be done.
Incorrect - Nobody was able to walk away from it. It worked extremely well and
they were contractually required to sort out any differences - they did so.
That\ is a fact. You can lie your childish lies but you got it wrong.
It was not a consortium (which is entirely different to an alliance), nobody
pulled out and nobody who signed up declined to work on it.
You are an impossible man - your lies are all you have.
How do I know this? I was intimately involved.
Post by Rich80105
The second and third were PP2O and Transmission gully, you are lumping them all
together when they were not in any way related except that they had to join
each other.
Post by Rich80105
See
https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/01-04-2022/the-true-costs-and-benefits-of-transmission-gully
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/local-papers/kapiti-observer/7990653/Kapiti-Express-to-be-completed-by-2020
https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=160454
https://contractormag.co.nz/contractor/transmission-gully/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%81piti_Expressway
https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-post-1022/20131204/282149289110225
None of which address the Alliance issue.
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/wellington-northern-corridor/mackays-to-peka-peka/construction-phase/
Post by Rich80105
One thing is clear - it was funded through borrowed money, with the
deal being acceptable for ACC to invest in it to get commercial
returns. If you assume that the consortium borrowed at say 0.5% above
the rate that the government could have borrowed, that is quite a few
million dollars of cost that would not have been incurred had the
government funded it directly.
The government has just so much money, haven't you learned that yet?
They (we) cannot and should not fund everythinmg for goodness sake.
Particularly a government like the last one that put us in hock for decades.
Instead of borrowing at government to government rates, the consortium
borrowed at higher rates, and yes that was all paid for by the
government. One reason for doing it was the belief that it would show
less borrowing in government books, but for New Zealand that was a
fallacy. The other reason right leaning governments like such
contracts is that they pass more money on to businesses and banks . .
I repeat it was not a consortium, do some research. It was an alliance which
has legal implications.
Absolutely - and they were sufficient for some, but clearly all,
potential subbies to not want to work on the project. It also did
change significantly for the later stages of the contract.
Post by Tony
You know nothing about what happened. You are making shit up.
Governments should not fund everything except in your personal fantasy utopia.
What are you talking about? If it is necessary to borrow to pay for a
project, surely borrowing at the lowest rate possible is in everyone's
interests. How does it help to get a consortium to borrow at a higher
rate and charge that back, possibly with a small margin, which
increases the amount the government has to pay?
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- it made it difficult to gain
the trust of sub-contractors, who had seen a spate of building
contracts being closed down with subbies losing both payment for work
done and a big fight for getting their working tools back.
In some countries, PPP will be accounted for by the government as an
asset as work progresses, with the cost of say future tolls not
allowed for until later - in effect the true costs gets hidden for
years; the UK Tories found themselves having to wear disappointment in
some projects as they were in government for long enough for the true
cost to be identified - Thames Water is an example of how it can all
go wrong - we should prefer the Scottish Water model that delivers
water at a significantly lower cost through a better and more
appropriate structure. Here is New Zealand the government accounting
rules require future commitments to be included as a cost (discounted
appropriately for time) in the government accounts, so our governments
cannot hide from those future commitments, but that economic reality
may not be well comprehended by those that see other governments only
having to account for these contracts as they have to make payments.
All of the above consideration apply to all governments, regardless of
which parties are involved, so the economics are more important than
the politics.
Rail offers some advantages over roads - for most routes the lines are
more stable than many of the roads; certainly the metal rails are
longer lasting than asphalt, and can take heavier loads without
significant additional deterioration. Rail takes traffic away from
congested routes, but does suit some items better than others.
Tony
2024-07-10 20:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 02:15:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 00:37:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 21:41:21 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 07 Jul 2024 21:31:46 +1200, Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity!
The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads. We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now), but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
If we step back and accept that any country needs transport for goods and
services we can then put the options on the table and start a
discussion
as
to the mix, if any we should use.
History has dictated that we have railways as turcks as we now then today,
did not exist as the trains powered by steam were hauling all that coal,
among other items across the country.
The different types of transport have developed differently - Air is
the only one that is almost all privately owned (albeit with
occasional bail-outs!). The economics of large road projects are
relatively simple - arrange the finance, get a good design and get it
done with ongoing systems to ensure that it is built to agreed
standards. Each step is important, but the big issues are getting
each step at the lowest possible price while not sacrificing quality.
The Kaikoura highway recover from the earthquake had to be done
quickly, so it was financed using government money (at a lower rate
than can be provided by any other New Zealand organisation, it was
managed by Engineers who were on site to monitor work as it was done
while planning the next step (urgent completion was a factor there).
Suppliers were sourced competitively - as much because they did not
know what they would need for later stages, but competitive
purchasing did keep costs low. Contractors were hired for each stage
so there was competitive tendering, and the knowledge that good
service may assist future contracts.
Compare with a PPP - a single provider of finance at a higher rate
than government needs to pay. A single supplier of both labour and
materials based on a single price with escalation clauses, in some
cases with part of the cost being met by future tolls. That cuts out
flexibility, but also limits the number of tenderers, and with a big
contract, there are inevitably variations that will get fought for an
increased price - through the courts if necessary.
Most contracts are somewhere in between - but the Kapiti expressway
had an additional difficulty in that the consortium was structures in
such a way that the tenderers could effectively shut down their
organisation and walk away at any point
I believe that is completely incorrect. The first part of the kapiti expressway
(M2PP )was managed by an alliance of four major parties with financial
involvement (including NZTA) plus the Kapiti Council (which had no financial
ris). The alliance was constructed so that none of those could sue the others
and they could not walk away. I think you are thinking of a different task.
No. The consortium was through a new entity with four parties on one
side and NZTA / Government on the other. If the contract had looked
like creating huge losses for the consortium, they could have just
walked away, although there would have been reputational risk. I know
well one company that refused to get involved because of the risk, and
he knew quite a few other potential sub-contractors that did not get
involved for the same reason
No there were three distinct and legally seperate tasks. The first was M2PP
and
that was an alliance and nobody could walk away. That is a fact.
That is the contract I was talking about, and I know that some people
declined to work on it because it was not watertight. The consortium
did eventually pull out with work still to be done.
Incorrect - Nobody was able to walk away from it. It worked extremely well and
they were contractually required to sort out any differences - they did so.
That\ is a fact. You can lie your childish lies but you got it wrong.
It was not a consortium (which is entirely different to an alliance), nobody
pulled out and nobody who signed up declined to work on it.
You are an impossible man - your lies are all you have.
How do I know this? I was intimately involved.
Post by Rich80105
The second and third were PP2O and Transmission gully, you are lumping them all
together when they were not in any way related except that they had to join
each other.
Post by Rich80105
See
https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/01-04-2022/the-true-costs-and-benefits-of-transmission-gully
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/local-papers/kapiti-observer/7990653/Kapiti-Express-to-be-completed-by-2020
https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=160454
https://contractormag.co.nz/contractor/transmission-gully/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%81piti_Expressway
https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-post-1022/20131204/282149289110225
None of which address the Alliance issue.
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/wellington-northern-corridor/mackays-to-peka-peka/construction-phase/
Post by Rich80105
One thing is clear - it was funded through borrowed money, with the
deal being acceptable for ACC to invest in it to get commercial
returns. If you assume that the consortium borrowed at say 0.5% above
the rate that the government could have borrowed, that is quite a few
million dollars of cost that would not have been incurred had the
government funded it directly.
The government has just so much money, haven't you learned that yet?
They (we) cannot and should not fund everythinmg for goodness sake.
Particularly a government like the last one that put us in hock for decades.
Instead of borrowing at government to government rates, the consortium
borrowed at higher rates, and yes that was all paid for by the
government. One reason for doing it was the belief that it would show
less borrowing in government books, but for New Zealand that was a
fallacy. The other reason right leaning governments like such
contracts is that they pass more money on to businesses and banks . .
I repeat it was not a consortium, do some research. It was an alliance which
has legal implications.
Absolutely - and they were sufficient for some, but clearly all,
potential subbies to not want to work on the project. It also did
change significantly for the later stages of the contract.
Prove that - you cannot. Nobody walked away. You are lying.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
You know nothing about what happened. You are making shit up.
Governments should not fund everything except in your personal fantasy utopia.
What are you talking about? If it is necessary to borrow to pay for a
project, surely borrowing at the lowest rate possible is in everyone's
interests. How does it help to get a consortium to borrow at a higher
rate and charge that back, possibly with a small margin, which
increases the amount the government has to pay?
Nonsense - government cannot and should not pay for everything and anything
they do not pay for might cost more - fact.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- it made it difficult to gain
the trust of sub-contractors, who had seen a spate of building
contracts being closed down with subbies losing both payment for work
done and a big fight for getting their working tools back.
In some countries, PPP will be accounted for by the government as an
asset as work progresses, with the cost of say future tolls not
allowed for until later - in effect the true costs gets hidden for
years; the UK Tories found themselves having to wear disappointment in
some projects as they were in government for long enough for the true
cost to be identified - Thames Water is an example of how it can all
go wrong - we should prefer the Scottish Water model that delivers
water at a significantly lower cost through a better and more
appropriate structure. Here is New Zealand the government accounting
rules require future commitments to be included as a cost (discounted
appropriately for time) in the government accounts, so our governments
cannot hide from those future commitments, but that economic reality
may not be well comprehended by those that see other governments only
having to account for these contracts as they have to make payments.
All of the above consideration apply to all governments, regardless of
which parties are involved, so the economics are more important than
the politics.
Rail offers some advantages over roads - for most routes the lines are
more stable than many of the roads; certainly the metal rails are
longer lasting than asphalt, and can take heavier loads without
significant additional deterioration. Rail takes traffic away from
congested routes, but does suit some items better than others.
Rich80105
2024-07-11 02:39:00 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 20:32:55 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 02:15:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 00:37:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 21:41:21 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 07 Jul 2024 21:31:46 +1200, Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity!
The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and
the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very
well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are
where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be
shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
Post by Rich80105
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
Post by Rich80105
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads. We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now), but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
If we step back and accept that any country needs transport for goods and
services we can then put the options on the table and start a
discussion
as
to the mix, if any we should use.
History has dictated that we have railways as turcks as we now then today,
did not exist as the trains powered by steam were hauling all that coal,
among other items across the country.
The different types of transport have developed differently - Air is
the only one that is almost all privately owned (albeit with
occasional bail-outs!). The economics of large road projects are
relatively simple - arrange the finance, get a good design and get it
done with ongoing systems to ensure that it is built to agreed
standards. Each step is important, but the big issues are getting
each step at the lowest possible price while not sacrificing quality.
The Kaikoura highway recover from the earthquake had to be done
quickly, so it was financed using government money (at a lower rate
than can be provided by any other New Zealand organisation, it was
managed by Engineers who were on site to monitor work as it was done
while planning the next step (urgent completion was a factor there).
Suppliers were sourced competitively - as much because they did not
know what they would need for later stages, but competitive
purchasing did keep costs low. Contractors were hired for each stage
so there was competitive tendering, and the knowledge that good
service may assist future contracts.
Compare with a PPP - a single provider of finance at a higher rate
than government needs to pay. A single supplier of both labour and
materials based on a single price with escalation clauses, in some
cases with part of the cost being met by future tolls. That cuts out
flexibility, but also limits the number of tenderers, and with a big
contract, there are inevitably variations that will get fought for an
increased price - through the courts if necessary.
Most contracts are somewhere in between - but the Kapiti expressway
had an additional difficulty in that the consortium was structures in
such a way that the tenderers could effectively shut down their
organisation and walk away at any point
I believe that is completely incorrect. The first part of the kapiti expressway
(M2PP )was managed by an alliance of four major parties with financial
involvement (including NZTA) plus the Kapiti Council (which had no financial
ris). The alliance was constructed so that none of those could sue the others
and they could not walk away. I think you are thinking of a different task.
No. The consortium was through a new entity with four parties on one
side and NZTA / Government on the other. If the contract had looked
like creating huge losses for the consortium, they could have just
walked away, although there would have been reputational risk. I know
well one company that refused to get involved because of the risk, and
he knew quite a few other potential sub-contractors that did not get
involved for the same reason
No there were three distinct and legally seperate tasks. The first was M2PP
and
that was an alliance and nobody could walk away. That is a fact.
That is the contract I was talking about, and I know that some people
declined to work on it because it was not watertight. The consortium
did eventually pull out with work still to be done.
Incorrect - Nobody was able to walk away from it. It worked extremely well and
they were contractually required to sort out any differences - they did so.
That\ is a fact. You can lie your childish lies but you got it wrong.
It was not a consortium (which is entirely different to an alliance), nobody
pulled out and nobody who signed up declined to work on it.
You are an impossible man - your lies are all you have.
How do I know this? I was intimately involved.
Post by Rich80105
The second and third were PP2O and Transmission gully, you are lumping them all
together when they were not in any way related except that they had to join
each other.
Post by Rich80105
See
https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/01-04-2022/the-true-costs-and-benefits-of-transmission-gully
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/local-papers/kapiti-observer/7990653/Kapiti-Express-to-be-completed-by-2020
https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=160454
https://contractormag.co.nz/contractor/transmission-gully/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%81piti_Expressway
https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-post-1022/20131204/282149289110225
None of which address the Alliance issue.
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/wellington-northern-corridor/mackays-to-peka-peka/construction-phase/
Post by Rich80105
One thing is clear - it was funded through borrowed money, with the
deal being acceptable for ACC to invest in it to get commercial
returns. If you assume that the consortium borrowed at say 0.5% above
the rate that the government could have borrowed, that is quite a few
million dollars of cost that would not have been incurred had the
government funded it directly.
The government has just so much money, haven't you learned that yet?
They (we) cannot and should not fund everythinmg for goodness sake.
Particularly a government like the last one that put us in hock for decades.
Instead of borrowing at government to government rates, the consortium
borrowed at higher rates, and yes that was all paid for by the
government. One reason for doing it was the belief that it would show
less borrowing in government books, but for New Zealand that was a
fallacy. The other reason right leaning governments like such
contracts is that they pass more money on to businesses and banks . .
I repeat it was not a consortium, do some research. It was an alliance which
has legal implications.
Absolutely - and they were sufficient for some, but clearly all,
potential subbies to not want to work on the project. It also did
change significantly for the later stages of the contract.
Prove that - you cannot. Nobody walked away. You are lying.
I did not say that anybody had walked away - I know of one contractor
(Civil and electrical engineering) who declined to tender - quite a
different matter, Tony - there were others who also declined to tender
. . .
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
You know nothing about what happened. You are making shit up.
Governments should not fund everything except in your personal fantasy utopia.
What are you talking about? If it is necessary to borrow to pay for a
project, surely borrowing at the lowest rate possible is in everyone's
interests. How does it help to get a consortium to borrow at a higher
rate and charge that back, possibly with a small margin, which
increases the amount the government has to pay?
Nonsense - government cannot and should not pay for everything and anything
they do not pay for might cost more - fact.
Nobody has suggested that the government should pay for everything - I
am happy to have paid for my own home for example. That is quite
different from a government agency "buying" the building of an
expressway. Who do you think should be paying for State Highways,
Tony? You are getting yourself very confused, Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- it made it difficult to gain
the trust of sub-contractors, who had seen a spate of building
contracts being closed down with subbies losing both payment for work
done and a big fight for getting their working tools back.
In some countries, PPP will be accounted for by the government as an
asset as work progresses, with the cost of say future tolls not
allowed for until later - in effect the true costs gets hidden for
years; the UK Tories found themselves having to wear disappointment in
some projects as they were in government for long enough for the true
cost to be identified - Thames Water is an example of how it can all
go wrong - we should prefer the Scottish Water model that delivers
water at a significantly lower cost through a better and more
appropriate structure. Here is New Zealand the government accounting
rules require future commitments to be included as a cost (discounted
appropriately for time) in the government accounts, so our governments
cannot hide from those future commitments, but that economic reality
may not be well comprehended by those that see other governments only
having to account for these contracts as they have to make payments.
All of the above consideration apply to all governments, regardless of
which parties are involved, so the economics are more important than
the politics.
Rail offers some advantages over roads - for most routes the lines are
more stable than many of the roads; certainly the metal rails are
longer lasting than asphalt, and can take heavier loads without
significant additional deterioration. Rail takes traffic away from
congested routes, but does suit some items better than others.
Tony
2024-07-11 06:55:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 20:32:55 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 02:15:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 00:37:26 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 21:41:21 -0000 (UTC), Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
On Mon, 08 Jul 2024 21:45:51 +1200, Crash
On Mon, 08 Jul 2024 20:31:57 +1200, Rich80105
On Mon, 08 Jul 2024 09:01:44 +1200, Crash
On Sun, 07 Jul 2024 21:31:46 +1200, Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government
has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about
the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity!
The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and
the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very
well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions
of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most
important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
Complete and utter nonsense as usual. Rail is state-owned solely
because in an economy with low population in a small area, rail
transport cannot generate economies of scale to be profitable (and
never has been). Populous countries such as India and China are
where
rail is sustainable, not NZ. With rail transport, goods to be
shipped
must be trans-shipped at least twice (ie loaded and unloaded at
least
3 times) versus once with goods sent by road.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-nz-needs-to-invest-properly-in-rail-and-ferry-infrastructure-for-the-public-good-bryce-edwards-political-roundup/NKNOGOD5VZASZMIMDDSFCVWJMM/
and
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/128602/brendon-harre-makes-case-taking-minimum-viable-design-approach-could-have
and
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
The claim that rail cannot be profitable is often made but seldom
justified.
It is not a claim. Rail transport in NZ has been a Government
department, an SOE, privately owned and repurchased by the Government.
It has never been profitable, even when protected by a cartage limit
of 150km or less for goods not sent be rail.
We know of course that running down NZ Rail when National
sold it of was hugely profitable, but that is merely an example of an
asset being bought at less than real value and then allowed to run
down as it was managed for short term profit. But we have seen
recently that storms can make rail easier to restore after a major
climate event - Gisborne and north of Auckland; but a bigger problem
is that statements of that sort are made without any equivalent
calculation of the profit delivered by Roads. Rail is much more
resilient than roads to heavy transport - many truckers are aware
that
current charges are too low for the heavier loads (over about 40
tons), and that road maintenance is significantly higher on roads
used
by heavy trucks, or city routes used by busses. We also tend to
ignore
coastal shipping - with the rail ferries being partly legitimately
seen as part of State Highway 1, or part of our Rail system, or part
of our Coastal Shipping services. We also need to look at total costs
by both local and national government - that is becoming clearer as
our new government is putting more costs on local areas, and the mix
of road and rail restoration between Napier and Gisborne will be
interesting to watch.
The article omits to mention that transport taxes (including RUCs
and
petrol taxes) are used to pay subsidies for public transport
(including rail in Wellington) amongst several other non-roading
entities. Use Google to find out where the NZTA spends NLTF funds.
NZTA has responsibilities for Transport, not just Roads - why would
they not spend money to reduce excessive traffic trying to travel to
and from Wellington to the Hutt Valley and Wairarapa and the Coast
from Johnsonville to Waikanae.
Because the money is sourced entirely from taxes on road transport.
Indirectly, therefore, it could be said that road taxes fund rail
subsidies.
I have been surprised at how little earthquake risk has been
mentioned
- there was considerable work done investigating a ferry terminal
near
Cape Campbell, which would have shortened the sea trip considerably -
but the Kaikoura earthquakes have been seen as making that too risky;
I understand earthquake considerations were also part of the move
from
the current ferry position (which creates difficulties for cruise
liners and other large vessels) further north to Kaiwharawhara. The
existing ferry terminal used by Bluebridge is very constrained and
makes transport from the rail terminal more difficult.
If you want to claim that one mode of transport is unprofitable, it
would be good to see some evidence, such as return on capital, for
all
modes - you will quickly realise that this information is not
available . . .
There is no point in me taking the time required for detailed research
that you will ignore because it does not match your ideological bias.
Been there, done that, not going to be sucked in again.
I challenge you to find any credible evidence that rail was profitable
(purely on the basis of revenue and expenses) while government-owned
(including as an SOE). If you can do this I will take you seriously
enough to cite my contentions.
You can ask all you want, but my point is that those that do not like
rail make those claims, but are never prepared to either support those
claims with actual numbers, or give corresponding calculations with
respect to Roads. We know that the current Government is planning more
Roads of National Party significance (perhaps that should be NAct1st
significance now), but never has there been any published analysis of
the return on capital arising from either any single project or all
roading activities.
If we step back and accept that any country needs transport for goods and
services we can then put the options on the table and start a
discussion
as
to the mix, if any we should use.
History has dictated that we have railways as turcks as we now then today,
did not exist as the trains powered by steam were hauling all that coal,
among other items across the country.
The different types of transport have developed differently - Air is
the only one that is almost all privately owned (albeit with
occasional bail-outs!). The economics of large road projects are
relatively simple - arrange the finance, get a good design and get it
done with ongoing systems to ensure that it is built to agreed
standards. Each step is important, but the big issues are getting
each step at the lowest possible price while not sacrificing quality.
The Kaikoura highway recover from the earthquake had to be done
quickly, so it was financed using government money (at a lower rate
than can be provided by any other New Zealand organisation, it was
managed by Engineers who were on site to monitor work as it was done
while planning the next step (urgent completion was a factor there).
Suppliers were sourced competitively - as much because they did not
know what they would need for later stages, but competitive
purchasing did keep costs low. Contractors were hired for each stage
so there was competitive tendering, and the knowledge that good
service may assist future contracts.
Compare with a PPP - a single provider of finance at a higher rate
than government needs to pay. A single supplier of both labour and
materials based on a single price with escalation clauses, in some
cases with part of the cost being met by future tolls. That cuts out
flexibility, but also limits the number of tenderers, and with a big
contract, there are inevitably variations that will get fought for an
increased price - through the courts if necessary.
Most contracts are somewhere in between - but the Kapiti expressway
had an additional difficulty in that the consortium was structures in
such a way that the tenderers could effectively shut down their
organisation and walk away at any point
I believe that is completely incorrect. The first part of the kapiti expressway
(M2PP )was managed by an alliance of four major parties with financial
involvement (including NZTA) plus the Kapiti Council (which had no financial
ris). The alliance was constructed so that none of those could sue the others
and they could not walk away. I think you are thinking of a different task.
No. The consortium was through a new entity with four parties on one
side and NZTA / Government on the other. If the contract had looked
like creating huge losses for the consortium, they could have just
walked away, although there would have been reputational risk. I know
well one company that refused to get involved because of the risk, and
he knew quite a few other potential sub-contractors that did not get
involved for the same reason
No there were three distinct and legally seperate tasks. The first was M2PP
and
that was an alliance and nobody could walk away. That is a fact.
That is the contract I was talking about, and I know that some people
declined to work on it because it was not watertight. The consortium
did eventually pull out with work still to be done.
Incorrect - Nobody was able to walk away from it. It worked extremely well and
they were contractually required to sort out any differences - they did so.
That\ is a fact. You can lie your childish lies but you got it wrong.
It was not a consortium (which is entirely different to an alliance), nobody
pulled out and nobody who signed up declined to work on it.
You are an impossible man - your lies are all you have.
How do I know this? I was intimately involved.
Post by Rich80105
The second and third were PP2O and Transmission gully, you are lumping
them
all
together when they were not in any way related except that they had to join
each other.
Post by Rich80105
See
https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/01-04-2022/the-true-costs-and-benefits-of-transmission-gully
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/local-papers/kapiti-observer/7990653/Kapiti-Express-to-be-completed-by-2020
https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=160454
https://contractormag.co.nz/contractor/transmission-gully/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%81piti_Expressway
https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-post-1022/20131204/282149289110225
None of which address the Alliance issue.
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/wellington-northern-corridor/mackays-to-peka-peka/construction-phase/
Post by Rich80105
One thing is clear - it was funded through borrowed money, with the
deal being acceptable for ACC to invest in it to get commercial
returns. If you assume that the consortium borrowed at say 0.5% above
the rate that the government could have borrowed, that is quite a few
million dollars of cost that would not have been incurred had the
government funded it directly.
The government has just so much money, haven't you learned that yet?
They (we) cannot and should not fund everythinmg for goodness sake.
Particularly a government like the last one that put us in hock for decades.
Instead of borrowing at government to government rates, the consortium
borrowed at higher rates, and yes that was all paid for by the
government. One reason for doing it was the belief that it would show
less borrowing in government books, but for New Zealand that was a
fallacy. The other reason right leaning governments like such
contracts is that they pass more money on to businesses and banks . .
I repeat it was not a consortium, do some research. It was an alliance which
has legal implications.
Absolutely - and they were sufficient for some, but clearly all,
potential subbies to not want to work on the project. It also did
change significantly for the later stages of the contract.
Prove that - you cannot. Nobody walked away. You are lying.
I did not say that anybody had walked away - I know of one contractor
(Civil and electrical engineering) who declined to tender - quite a
different matter, Tony - there were others who also declined to tender
You wrote
"No. The consortium was through a new entity with four parties on one
side and NZTA / Government on the other. If the contract had looked
like creating huge losses for the consortium, they could have just
walked away, although there would have been reputational risk. I know
well one company that refused to get involved because of the risk, and
he knew quite a few other potential sub-contractors that did not get
involved for the same reason"
In other words you said someone could quit after they had signed up - that was
a lie, plain and simple. You are squirming now and drowning in your
self-generated cesspit.
Post by Rich80105
. . .
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
You know nothing about what happened. You are making shit up.
Governments should not fund everything except in your personal fantasy utopia.
What are you talking about? If it is necessary to borrow to pay for a
project, surely borrowing at the lowest rate possible is in everyone's
interests. How does it help to get a consortium to borrow at a higher
rate and charge that back, possibly with a small margin, which
increases the amount the government has to pay?
Nonsense - government cannot and should not pay for everything and anything
they do not pay for might cost more - fact.
Nobody has suggested that the government should pay for everything - I
am happy to have paid for my own home for example. That is quite
different from a government agency "buying" the building of an
expressway. Who do you think should be paying for State Highways,
Tony? You are getting yourself very confused, Tony
I am not at all confused. You suggested that the government should pay for
something just because they have better finacing arrangements. That is idiotic.
I explained how that was wrong and you are still drowning in your cesspit.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- it made it difficult to gain
the trust of sub-contractors, who had seen a spate of building
contracts being closed down with subbies losing both payment for work
done and a big fight for getting their working tools back.
In some countries, PPP will be accounted for by the government as an
asset as work progresses, with the cost of say future tolls not
allowed for until later - in effect the true costs gets hidden for
years; the UK Tories found themselves having to wear disappointment in
some projects as they were in government for long enough for the true
cost to be identified - Thames Water is an example of how it can all
go wrong - we should prefer the Scottish Water model that delivers
water at a significantly lower cost through a better and more
appropriate structure. Here is New Zealand the government accounting
rules require future commitments to be included as a cost (discounted
appropriately for time) in the government accounts, so our governments
cannot hide from those future commitments, but that economic reality
may not be well comprehended by those that see other governments only
having to account for these contracts as they have to make payments.
All of the above consideration apply to all governments, regardless of
which parties are involved, so the economics are more important than
the politics.
Rail offers some advantages over roads - for most routes the lines are
more stable than many of the roads; certainly the metal rails are
longer lasting than asphalt, and can take heavier loads without
significant additional deterioration. Rail takes traffic away from
congested routes, but does suit some items better than others.
Tony
2024-07-07 23:16:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/06/26/the-trucking-industry-wants-the-government-to-close-down-its-more-efficient-rival-rail/
This was written before the indications now that the government has
decided to replace the existing Kiwirail ships with ones about the
same size as the existing ships - what a waste of an opportunity! The
earthquake risks required substantial work at both terminals, and the
larger ships that were already on order would have worked very well -
but no NAct1st just had to stop them at a cost of many millions of
dollars - and are now giving us lower service on our most important
road link - just to pander to the trucking industry.
Shame - putting their mates before the country . . .
What utter nonsense. Rail is heavily subsidised otherwise we wouldn't have any
railways at all.
The decision to go to smaller ships was driven by a stupid error of judgement
by the last government who had delusions of grandeur about unnecessarily larger
ships and a huge unsustainable cost overrun.
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