Why a past tory Ministr will vote Labour at the UK election

[Rich80105]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/tory-minister-need-labour-government

There is much in that article that is also relevant to New Zealand.

[Tony]

Post by Rich80105
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/tory-minister-need-labour-government
There is much in that article that is also relevant to New Zealand.

No there is not you fool.
The Guardian is as trustworthy a source of news as the Spinoff or No Right Tur
- all trash.

[Rich80105]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 04:08:19 -0000 (UTC), Tony

Post by Tony

Post by Rich80105
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/tory-minister-need-labour-government
There is much in that article that is also relevant to New Zealand.

No there is not you fool.
The Guardian is as trustworthy a source of news as the Spinoff or No Right Tur
- all trash.

You are off topic, Tony. This article is effectively a statement by a
past Conservative politician talking about an issue that he believes
has been so badly handled by his own party that he will vote for a
change of government. The issues he addresses have relevance for New
Zealand. All the Guardian is doing is publishing it - it is not an
editorial.

[Tony]

Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 04:08:19 -0000 (UTC), Tony

Post by Tony

Post by Rich80105
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/tory-minister-need-labour-government
There is much in that article that is also relevant to New Zealand.

No there is not you fool.
The Guardian is as trustworthy a source of news as the Spinoff or No Right Tur
- all trash.

You are off topic, Tony.

Nonsense - I am absolutely on topic discussing your biased post.

Post by Rich80105
This article is effectively a statement by a
past Conservative politician talking about an issue that he believes
has been so badly handled by his own party that he will vote for a
change of government. The issues he addresses have relevance for New
Zealand. All the Guardian is doing is publishing it - it is not an
editorial.

Irrelevant, everything the Guardian publishes is politically driven, just like
you.
The article is completely irrelevant to this country and only you would be
deceived by it.

[Rich80105]

On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 20:41:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony

Post by Tony

Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 04:08:19 -0000 (UTC), Tony

Post by Tony

Post by Rich80105
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/tory-minister-need-labour-government
There is much in that article that is also relevant to New Zealand.

No there is not you fool.
The Guardian is as trustworthy a source of news as the Spinoff or No Right Tur
- all trash.

You are off topic, Tony.

Nonsense - I am absolutely on topic discussing your biased post.

Post by Rich80105
This article is effectively a statement by a
past Conservative politician talking about an issue that he believes
has been so badly handled by his own party that he will vote for a
change of government. The issues he addresses have relevance for New
Zealand. All the Guardian is doing is publishing it - it is not an
editorial.

Irrelevant, everything the Guardian publishes is politically driven, just like
you.
The article is completely irrelevant to this country and only you would be
deceived by it.

So either you have read it, and do not understand that what affects
one of our major trading partners can also affect us, or you have not
read the article and are just mouthing off . . .

[Tony]

Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 20:41:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony

Post by Tony

Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 04:08:19 -0000 (UTC), Tony

Post by Tony

Post by Rich80105
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/tory-minister-need-labour-government
There is much in that article that is also relevant to New Zealand.

No there is not you fool.
The Guardian is as trustworthy a source of news as the Spinoff or No Right Tur
- all trash.

You are off topic, Tony.

Nonsense - I am absolutely on topic discussing your biased post.

Post by Rich80105
This article is effectively a statement by a
past Conservative politician talking about an issue that he believes
has been so badly handled by his own party that he will vote for a
change of government. The issues he addresses have relevance for New
Zealand. All the Guardian is doing is publishing it - it is not an
editorial.

Irrelevant, everything the Guardian publishes is politically driven, just like
you.
The article is completely irrelevant to this country and only you would be
deceived by it.

So either you have read it, and do not understand that what affects
one of our major trading partners can also affect us, or you have not
read the article and are just mouthing off . . .

Nope, as usual you got it wrong.
I read it, and decided it had nothing to do with NZ and is therefore a waste of
bandwidth just like you.

[Gordon]

Post by Rich80105
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/tory-minister-need-labour-government
There is much in that article that is also relevant to New Zealand.

The article reinforces the idea that Labour/Greens/the left are wanting to
control the narrative and thus the people.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Then again, it could be 1992 all over again.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

So, Starmer has won. Do you think this will make a difference to anything
important?

As I understand, Labour has a commitment in its Constitution to
recognizing the state of Palestine. But of course there is no deadline to
this.

Note that Jeremy Corbyn kept his seat, after being pushed out of the
Labour Party over his stance on Israel. And I think there are a few other
ex-Labour Independents like him as well.

[Rich80105]

On Sat, 6 Jul 2024 07:46:24 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
So, Starmer has won. Do you think this will make a difference to anything
important?
As I understand, Labour has a commitment in its Constitution to
recognizing the state of Palestine. But of course there is no deadline to
this.
Note that Jeremy Corbyn kept his seat, after being pushed out of the
Labour Party over his stance on Israel. And I think there are a few other
ex-Labour Independents like him as well.

Corbyn and those few others may have taken a few votes off Labour; I
think there was more at stake than his stance on Israel. Labour got
only about 2% more votes than the previous election, and many of those
were in Scotland - a first past the post system can give a big swing
on small changes in voting. The biggest percentage of registered
voters was those that did not vote. Good to see their Green Party
getting more seats.

The large change in seats for a small change in voting does illustrate
that First Past the Post is not a good basis for electing a government
that truly represents the wishes of a majority of voters.

A big issue for the UK is whether they re-join the EU - while a
majority think it was the wrong decision, reversing may be quite
difficult, but it may well be one of the few things that may turn
around the decline of the country from 14 years of the blundering
Conservatives.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by Rich80105
Corbyn and those few others may have taken a few votes off Labour; I
think there was more at stake than his stance on Israel.

Did you notice that Starmer’s majority shrank a bit compared to the
previous election? Some credit must go to Andrew Feinstein, who ran
against him.

Feinstein served in the South African Parliament in the ANC alongside
Nelson Mandela.

[Rich80105]

On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 00:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Rich80105
Corbyn and those few others may have taken a few votes off Labour; I
think there was more at stake than his stance on Israel.

Did you notice that Starmer’s majority shrank a bit compared to the
previous election? Some credit must go to Andrew Feinstein, who ran
against him.
Feinstein served in the South African Parliament in the ANC alongside
Nelson Mandela.

We have had major figures in an incoming government lose percentages
in their electorates, that is because each electorate is not
representative of the country. Of much interest is the reality that
the huge change in number of representatives results has happened
while overall support has not moved significantly - Labour in the UK
took only about 2% more votes, and most of those were in Scotland.
There is talk of moving to a more democratic system - by both Tories
and Labour, but what that may look like is anyone's guess - the
systems used by France and New Zealand have some advantages, but also
dangers to .

However we now move to what the new Government is doing, and there
Labour does seem to have made at least some preparations, which may
well affect how future Prime Ministers lead their Government:

Keir Starmer is certainly different, and has often appeared to be very
reserved and even timid in putting forward policies, but he did at
times demonstrate that he had strong moral principles - this speech
some time ago shows that he will follow and respect the rule of law :

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by Rich80105
Keir Starmer is certainly different, and has often appeared to be very
reserved and even timid in putting forward policies, but he did at times
demonstrate that he had strong moral principles - this speech some time
ago shows that he will follow and respect the rule of law ...

Will that include supporting the operations of the International Court of
Justice and the International Criminal Court, I wonder?

[Rich80105]

On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 07:45:17 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Rich80105
Keir Starmer is certainly different, and has often appeared to be very
reserved and even timid in putting forward policies, but he did at times
demonstrate that he had strong moral principles - this speech some time
ago shows that he will follow and respect the rule of law ...

Will that include supporting the operations of the International Court of
Justice and the International Criminal Court, I wonder?

I suspect it will; apparently the UK Labour party had a policy to
recognise Palestine, but as for some of the new governments promises
here, there was no timetable. We may see some different arguments put
to the International Courts from the UK, but the real impediment to
international action is probably the UN vetoes.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

... the real impediment to international action is probably the UN
vetoes.

Unfortunately, yes.

I think it would help if the threshold was raised so it needed *two*
permanent members to vote no to kill a Security Council resolution. You
could still have Russia and China ganging up, or the US and UK, but it
would get rid in one fell swoop of all those cases where everybody else
voted yes, but a single nation (e.g. Russia or the US) voted no.