Discussion:
Renewable energy?
Add Reply
Tony
2020-10-06 22:52:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
See
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300125625/the-detail-is-renewable-energy-the-best-way-for-nz-tackle-climate-change
Renewable energy sounds like a good idea except it probably is not at all easy
to find any.
See
https://www.minds.com/waimak_one/blog/nz-labour-s-mad-energy-idea-1136410724734169088
In essence the fact is that if we have surplus energy from somewhere (like
hydroelectric power) then by all means store it using water storage but if we
need to generate energy to do that then we are kidding ourselves.
Sounds like clutching at straws.
Rich80105
2020-10-07 00:28:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 06 Oct 2020 17:52:21 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
See
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300125625/the-detail-is-renewable-energy-the-best-way-for-nz-tackle-climate-change
Renewable energy sounds like a good idea except it probably is not at all easy
to find any.
There are quite a few sources of renewable energy; some that may not
be totally renewable (eg geothermal) are still worth pursuing
Post by Tony
See
https://www.minds.com/waimak_one/blog/nz-labour-s-mad-energy-idea-1136410724734169088
In essence the fact is that if we have surplus energy from somewhere (like
hydroelectric power) then by all means store it using water storage but if we
need to generate energy to do that then we are kidding ourselves.
That does seem sensible, but there are a number of potential sources
of alternative energy.
Post by Tony
Sounds like clutching at straws.
Yes, I agree - many articles that start by accusing someone of "Fake
News" are just that.
Tony
2020-10-07 01:22:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 06 Oct 2020 17:52:21 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
See
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300125625/the-detail-is-renewable-energy-the-best-way-for-nz-tackle-climate-change
Renewable energy sounds like a good idea except it probably is not at all easy
to find any.
There are quite a few sources of renewable energy; some that may not
be totally renewable (eg geothermal) are still worth pursuing.
Name some renewable ones, that is ones that do not produce garbage thyat we
must live with.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
See
https://www.minds.com/waimak_one/blog/nz-labour-s-mad-energy-idea-1136410724734169088
In essence the fact is that if we have surplus energy from somewhere (like
hydroelectric power) then by all means store it using water storage but if we
need to generate energy to do that then we are kidding ourselves.
That does seem sensible, but there are a number of potential sources
of alternative energy.
Very few that stack up, in fact I am not sure there are any. The secret is to
reduce consumption not to look for something that probably does not exist yet.
As an aside, there may well be hope in due course with fusion reaction and
efficient solar power that does not blight the world with dead batteries.
Neither are ready yet.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Sounds like clutching at straws.
Yes, I agree - many articles that start by accusing someone of "Fake
News" are just that.
Except this one has science behind it. Anyone who cannot go past the first
couple of sentences and look at the substance is themselves a fake.
John Bowes
2020-10-07 03:24:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 06 Oct 2020 17:52:21 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
See
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300125625/the-detail-is-renewable-energy-the-best-way-for-nz-tackle-climate-change
Renewable energy sounds like a good idea except it probably is not at all easy
to find any.
There are quite a few sources of renewable energy; some that may not
be totally renewable (eg geothermal) are still worth pursuing
So why is Winston's shambolock government pursuing what is about as silly as the Green party's investment in tidal power in the Kaipara?
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
See
https://www.minds.com/waimak_one/blog/nz-labour-s-mad-energy-idea-1136410724734169088
In essence the fact is that if we have surplus energy from somewhere (like
hydroelectric power) then by all means store it using water storage but if we
need to generate energy to do that then we are kidding ourselves.
That does seem sensible, but there are a number of potential sources
of alternative energy.
So why are Winston's fools fixating on the sillier ones? Winds great till the wind stops and solar is fine till the sun goes down. We're always going to need backups and hydro (even if Tiwai closes)and geothermal aren't capable of picking up the shortfall. For that we need to exploit the natural gas Ardern's put a stop to finding and using. Silly little girl is quite happy to import coal from Indonesia to keep us supplied and to hell with the cost of importing it!
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Sounds like clutching at straws.
Yes, I agree - many articles that start by accusing someone of "Fake
News" are just that.
Just like many of your posts are "Fake News"Rich!
Crash
2020-10-07 01:25:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 06 Oct 2020 17:52:21 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
See
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300125625/the-detail-is-renewable-energy-the-best-way-for-nz-tackle-climate-change
Renewable energy sounds like a good idea except it probably is not at all easy
to find any.
Agreed and any impact on Climate Change from this is a side-benefit -
no more, no less.
Post by Tony
See
https://www.minds.com/waimak_one/blog/nz-labour-s-mad-energy-idea-1136410724734169088
In essence the fact is that if we have surplus energy from somewhere (like
hydroelectric power) then by all means store it using water storage but if we
need to generate energy to do that then we are kidding ourselves.
Sounds like clutching at straws.
Not necessarily. The article you quote comes from a source that is as
anti-Labour as Rich80105 is anti-National, so needs to be treated with
skepticism reserved for promoting an anti-Labour stance.

The concept of pumped storage is here:

https://www.mbie.govt.nz/building-and-energy/energy-and-natural-resources/low-emissions-economy/nz-battery/

The premise is that water pumped into pumped storage will be used to
augment seasonal shortages of hydro-generated power. However it
logically works only if the time required to use the resource is
shorter than the time required to produce it.

For example, if a storage lake is filled over a 9 month period using
water pumped 24/7, then used over a 3 month period over peak power
demand only (ie perhaps 5 hours total per day). If the power used
over the 9 month filling period uses excess generation capability that
may not otherwise be used, or spilled, then the pumping uses
electricity that is in excess. What we get back is additional
peak-period generation, assuming the generators used are hydro-scale
devices.

The article above ignores this - it simply says that pumped-storage is
a failure if the energy generated (ie over 3 months) does not exceed
the energy required to pump the water up to that storage (ie over 9
months) and therefore ignores the circumstances as I outlined
previously, presumably to promote an anti-Labour stance in respect of
the Lake Onslow proposal.

The principle I have outlined above gets weaker if the pumping cycle
gets closer to the generation cycle in time. The theory though
remains sound.


--
Crash McBash
Tony
2020-10-07 01:53:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 06 Oct 2020 17:52:21 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
See
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300125625/the-detail-is-renewable-energy-the-best-way-for-nz-tackle-climate-change
Renewable energy sounds like a good idea except it probably is not at all easy
to find any.
Agreed and any impact on Climate Change from this is a side-benefit -
no more, no less.
Post by Tony
See
https://www.minds.com/waimak_one/blog/nz-labour-s-mad-energy-idea-1136410724734169088
In essence the fact is that if we have surplus energy from somewhere (like
hydroelectric power) then by all means store it using water storage but if we
need to generate energy to do that then we are kidding ourselves.
Sounds like clutching at straws.
Not necessarily. The article you quote comes from a source that is as
anti-Labour as Rich80105 is anti-National, so needs to be treated with
skepticism reserved for promoting an anti-Labour stance.
https://www.mbie.govt.nz/building-and-energy/energy-and-natural-resources/low-emissions-economy/nz-battery/
The premise is that water pumped into pumped storage will be used to
augment seasonal shortages of hydro-generated power. However it
logically works only if the time required to use the resource is
shorter than the time required to produce it.
For example, if a storage lake is filled over a 9 month period using
water pumped 24/7, then used over a 3 month period over peak power
demand only (ie perhaps 5 hours total per day). If the power used
over the 9 month filling period uses excess generation capability that
may not otherwise be used, or spilled, then the pumping uses
electricity that is in excess. What we get back is additional
peak-period generation, assuming the generators used are hydro-scale
devices.
The article above ignores this - it simply says that pumped-storage is
a failure if the energy generated (ie over 3 months) does not exceed
the energy required to pump the water up to that storage (ie over 9
months) and therefore ignores the circumstances as I outlined
previously, presumably to promote an anti-Labour stance in respect of
the Lake Onslow proposal.
The principle I have outlined above gets weaker if the pumping cycle
gets closer to the generation cycle in time. The theory though
remains sound.
--
Crash McBash
Thanks Crash, the fact is that the principle has been understood for decades. I
recall the UK looking at it (despite their very small energy generation using
hydro). And it was not taken further.
I wrote a paper on this when I was younger.
The likelihood of it working even in a country with as much hydro energy as we
have is actually quite small.
I believe it is a waste of time and we would be better spending the money
elsewhere. Just an opinion but not a biased one.
Gordon
2020-10-07 06:59:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 06 Oct 2020 17:52:21 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
See
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300125625/the-detail-is-renewable-energy-the-best-way-for-nz-tackle-climate-change
Renewable energy sounds like a good idea except it probably is not at all easy
to find any.
Agreed and any impact on Climate Change from this is a side-benefit -
no more, no less.
Post by Tony
See
https://www.minds.com/waimak_one/blog/nz-labour-s-mad-energy-idea-1136410724734169088
In essence the fact is that if we have surplus energy from somewhere (like
hydroelectric power) then by all means store it using water storage but if we
need to generate energy to do that then we are kidding ourselves.
Sounds like clutching at straws.
Not necessarily. The article you quote comes from a source that is as
anti-Labour as Rich80105 is anti-National, so needs to be treated with
skepticism reserved for promoting an anti-Labour stance.
https://www.mbie.govt.nz/building-and-energy/energy-and-natural-resources/low-emissions-economy/nz-battery/
The premise is that water pumped into pumped storage will be used to
augment seasonal shortages of hydro-generated power. However it
logically works only if the time required to use the resource is
shorter than the time required to produce it.
For example, if a storage lake is filled over a 9 month period using
water pumped 24/7, then used over a 3 month period over peak power
demand only (ie perhaps 5 hours total per day). If the power used
over the 9 month filling period uses excess generation capability that
may not otherwise be used, or spilled, then the pumping uses
electricity that is in excess. What we get back is additional
peak-period generation, assuming the generators used are hydro-scale
devices.
The article above ignores this - it simply says that pumped-storage is
a failure if the energy generated (ie over 3 months) does not exceed
the energy required to pump the water up to that storage (ie over 9
months) and therefore ignores the circumstances as I outlined
previously, presumably to promote an anti-Labour stance in respect of
the Lake Onslow proposal.
The principle I have outlined above gets weaker if the pumping cycle
gets closer to the generation cycle in time. The theory though
remains sound.
--
Crash McBash
Thanks Crash, the fact is that the principle has been understood for decades. I
recall the UK looking at it (despite their very small energy generation using
hydro). And it was not taken further.
I wrote a paper on this when I was younger.
The likelihood of it working even in a country with as much hydro energy as we
have is actually quite small.
I believe it is a waste of time and we would be better spending the money
elsewhere. Just an opinion but not a biased one.
If one wishes to go 100% renewables then one has to have a form of storage
owing wind, solar and wave power going to zero output from time to time.

The pump it back up idea is decades old. You need "free" power to make it
work. Thermal power stations take time to power up and ramp down so it is
efficient to run then at a constant out put. Use the execess to pump the
water up.

There is the seasonal peak and the daily peaks.

Also there is the idea of distrubting the geneneration. Every house upllies
most of what they need.

We all have electric cars (in the future) so the peaks can be supplied by
the car batteries. Need some heavy wiring. Tesla already sell the 13.5KWHhr
(Powerwall) battery for you house

https://www.tesla.com/en_nz/powerwall?redirect=no


Of course nuclear is carbon free, but that is a real can of worms even if
one can build reactors which do not melt down.

https://www.transpower.co.nz/power-system-live-data

A place to find out the amount of power being used.
George
2020-10-07 19:12:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 7 Oct 2020 06:59:49 GMT
Post by Gordon
If one wishes to go 100% renewables then one has to have a form of
storage owing wind, solar and wave power going to zero output from
time to time.
The pump it back up idea is decades old. You need "free" power to
make it work. Thermal power stations take time to power up and ramp
down so it is efficient to run then at a constant out put. Use the
execess to pump the water up.
There is the seasonal peak and the daily peaks.
Also there is the idea of distrubting the geneneration. Every house
upllies most of what they need.
We all have electric cars (in the future) so the peaks can be
supplied by the car batteries. Need some heavy wiring. Tesla already
sell the 13.5KWHhr (Powerwall) battery for you house
https://www.tesla.com/en_nz/powerwall?redirect=no
Of course nuclear is carbon free, but that is a real can of worms
even if one can build reactors which do not melt down.
https://www.transpower.co.nz/power-system-live-data
A place to find out the amount of power being used.
Best additional power source would be nuclear.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Tony
2020-10-07 19:30:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by George
On 7 Oct 2020 06:59:49 GMT
Post by Gordon
If one wishes to go 100% renewables then one has to have a form of
storage owing wind, solar and wave power going to zero output from
time to time.
The pump it back up idea is decades old. You need "free" power to
make it work. Thermal power stations take time to power up and ramp
down so it is efficient to run then at a constant out put. Use the
execess to pump the water up.
There is the seasonal peak and the daily peaks.
Also there is the idea of distrubting the geneneration. Every house
upllies most of what they need.
We all have electric cars (in the future) so the peaks can be
supplied by the car batteries. Need some heavy wiring. Tesla already
sell the 13.5KWHhr (Powerwall) battery for you house
https://www.tesla.com/en_nz/powerwall?redirect=no
Of course nuclear is carbon free, but that is a real can of worms
even if one can build reactors which do not melt down.
https://www.transpower.co.nz/power-system-live-data
A place to find out the amount of power being used.
Best additional power source would be nuclear.
Nuclear Fusion is still not available but when it is it will be a game
changer. Very low waste and can't melt down.

Loading...