Discussion:
No free lunch
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Tony
2020-12-26 23:55:31 UTC
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Permalink
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
John Bowes
2020-12-27 06:58:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
An excellent presentation. Rich however will claim it's "fake news" because his great and glorious leader hasn't mentioned any of the facts in the presentation. Besides Jimmy Shaw knows it all and would never EVER lie to Richie and the other Greenies :)
Gordon
2020-12-27 08:08:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
The real problem is one of the world using up its energy capital. History
shows that we have gone from wood, to coal to oil, and used a great deal of
it all up. We are not living within our means.

Still there is nuclear.
James Christophers
2020-12-27 20:55:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
The real problem is one of the world using up its energy capital. History
shows that we have gone from wood, to coal to oil, and used a great deal of
it all up. We are not living within our means.
This is what must eventually happen when one spieces has dominion, not only over all others - barring, perhaps, the next evolving and mutating virus - but also the world's finite resources.
Post by Gordon
Still there is nuclear.
Forever seductive, but with 100% containment for all time still its biggest downside.
Tony
2020-12-27 22:16:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
The real problem is one of the world using up its energy capital. History
shows that we have gone from wood, to coal to oil, and used a great deal of
it all up. We are not living within our means.
This is what must eventually happen when one spieces has dominion, not only
over all others - barring, perhaps, the next evolving and mutating virus - but
also the world's finite resources.
Post by Gordon
Still there is nuclear.
Forever seductive, but with 100% containment for all time still its biggest downside.
Until nuclear fusion reactors are available.
Firu
2020-12-27 18:40:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
Tony
2020-12-27 19:30:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
Maybe so but the presenter is qualified and the figures he provides have yet to
be disputed.
James Christophers
2020-12-27 20:35:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
Maybe so but the presenter is qualified and the figures he provides have yet to
be disputed.
They have, and I had no difficulty in googling them within moments. As to their quality and validity on a like for like basis? I leave that to the judgment of those better qualified in the relevant processes and sciences than I.
Tony
2020-12-27 20:54:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
Maybe so but the presenter is qualified and the figures he provides have yet to
be disputed.
They have, and I had no difficulty in googling them within moments. As to
their quality and validity on a like for like basis? I leave that to the
judgment of those better qualified in the relevant processes and sciences than
I.
There are always differences of opinion but energy is never truly free. That is
the point of the post, the first law of thermodynamics applies.
James Christophers
2020-12-27 21:19:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
Maybe so but the presenter is qualified and the figures he provides have yet to
be disputed.
They have, and I had no difficulty in googling them within moments. As to
their quality and validity on a like for like basis? I leave that to the
judgment of those better qualified in the relevant processes and sciences than
I.
There are always differences of opinion but energy is never truly free. That is
the point of the post, the first law of thermodynamics applies.
T'was ever thus, and the same goes for the endless supply of experts who spend so much time regurgitating the same message.

The essential futility of that message is universally conveyed in Augustine's wayward plea to his Maker: "Lord make me chaste, but not yet."
Tony
2020-12-27 22:14:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the
future
of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned
out
by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
Maybe so but the presenter is qualified and the figures he provides have
yet
to
be disputed.
They have, and I had no difficulty in googling them within moments. As to
their quality and validity on a like for like basis? I leave that to the
judgment of those better qualified in the relevant processes and sciences than
I.
There are always differences of opinion but energy is never truly free. That is
the point of the post, the first law of thermodynamics applies.
T'was ever thus, and the same goes for the endless supply of experts who spend
so much time regurgitating the same message.
The essential futility of that message is universally conveyed in Augustine's
wayward plea to his Maker: "Lord make me chaste, but not yet."
However there are people all over the world who could do with some educating,
whether they know it or not, including in this newsgroup. Hence this thread is
not a waste of energy (hint).
James Christophers
2020-12-27 23:47:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the
future
of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned
out
by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
Maybe so but the presenter is qualified and the figures he provides have
yet
to
be disputed.
They have, and I had no difficulty in googling them within moments. As to
their quality and validity on a like for like basis? I leave that to the
judgment of those better qualified in the relevant processes and sciences than
I.
There are always differences of opinion but energy is never truly free. That is
the point of the post, the first law of thermodynamics applies.
T'was ever thus, and the same goes for the endless supply of experts who spend
so much time regurgitating the same message.
The essential futility of that message is universally conveyed in Augustine's
wayward plea to his Maker: "Lord make me chaste, but not yet."
However there are people all over the world who could do with some educating,
whether they know it or not, including in this newsgroup. Hence this thread is
not a waste of energy (hint).
Matthew 7:1-3 KJV
Tony
2020-12-28 00:30:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the
future
of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned
out
by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
Maybe so but the presenter is qualified and the figures he provides have
yet
to
be disputed.
They have, and I had no difficulty in googling them within moments. As to
their quality and validity on a like for like basis? I leave that to the
judgment of those better qualified in the relevant processes and
sciences
than
I.
There are always differences of opinion but energy is never truly free.
That
is
the point of the post, the first law of thermodynamics applies.
T'was ever thus, and the same goes for the endless supply of experts who spend
so much time regurgitating the same message.
The essential futility of that message is universally conveyed in Augustine's
wayward plea to his Maker: "Lord make me chaste, but not yet."
However there are people all over the world who could do with some educating,
whether they know it or not, including in this newsgroup. Hence this thread is
not a waste of energy (hint).
Matthew 7:1-3 KJV
I judge people not a whit more than you or many others here do.
Indeed silly notions about energy are rampant here and in the general
population both of which are full of "experts".
Firu
2020-12-27 23:40:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
Maybe so but the presenter is qualified and the figures he provides have yet to
be disputed.
He may well be qualified and the figures might be OK.

They are also very selective and ignore inconvenient facts. The very
same facts, new developments, more modern technology, the presenter uses
to promote burning fossil fuels.

There are more efficient wind devices in development. There are some
exotic solar tech materials that may give some efficiency gains. A mix
of different technologies will likely be the result of all this
technological development.

The big drawback to fossil fuels is they are finite. And amount of
cunning tech and propaganda will change that.
Tony
2020-12-28 00:25:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
Maybe so but the presenter is qualified and the figures he provides have yet to
be disputed.
He may well be qualified and the figures might be OK.
They are also very selective and ignore inconvenient facts. The very
same facts, new developments, more modern technology, the presenter uses
to promote burning fossil fuels.
There are more efficient wind devices in development. There are some
exotic solar tech materials that may give some efficiency gains. A mix
of different technologies will likely be the result of all this
technological development.
The big drawback to fossil fuels is they are finite. And amount of
cunning tech and propaganda will change that.
I am no lover of the continuation of fossil fuel use. My issue is that there
are serious downsides to the alternatives at this time. Solar and wind are in
their infancy and until we fix the problems they have we only have two choices
unless a new alternative is found, those choices are use fossil fuels or cut
energy use dramatically. I don't believe his agenda was the defence of fossil
fuels.
Firu
2020-12-28 10:46:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Firu
The big drawback to fossil fuels is they are finite. And amount of
cunning tech and propaganda will change that.
I am no lover of the continuation of fossil fuel use. My issue is that there
are serious downsides to the alternatives at this time. Solar and wind are in
their infancy and until we fix the problems they have we only have two choices
unless a new alternative is found, those choices are use fossil fuels or cut
energy use dramatically. I don't believe his agenda was the defence of fossil
fuels.
If the problems with renewables are around efficiency and energy
conversion its worth remembering that losses are inherent in any
conversion process.

When you take into consideration the three conversion processes,
thermal, mechanical and electrical, used to extract the energy from
fossil fuels the overall efficiency of a modern fossil fuelled
electrical power generating plant will be about 40%. This means that 60%
of the energy input to the system is wasted. Efficiencies may be as low
as 30% in some older plants.

In NZ geothermal and hydro are other possibilities that don't use finite
resources and are suited to local microgeneration plants. So a few more
bits to add tot the mix.

When we get onto energy savings, you are dead right. We need more
efficiency in homes, workplaces and schools. This shouldn't be seen as a
temporary measure till we sort out the generation side, but rather a
thing we just do all the time.

When I came to NZ I was amazed at the lack of insulation and the general
thermal inefficiencies of property here. When I eventually built my own
home I added lots of insulation and temperature control ideas into the
building. So minimal heating requirements and no cooling requirements.
By using natural light the need for electrical lighting was reduced and
any lighting is now 100% LED.
John Bowes
2020-12-27 21:01:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
So they're not much different from the 'climate change' crowd with the difference that PragerU use facts rather than dodgy science.
Firu
2020-12-27 23:45:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
So they're not much different from the 'climate change' crowd with the difference that PragerU use facts rather than dodgy science.
PragerU use dodgy facts rather than science.

Fixed that for you, you're welcome!

We've covered this before. The current trends suggest a correlation
between pollution and climate change. Air temperatures, sea levels,
shrinking ice deposits have all been measured. When we are faced with
this evidence and reasonable hypothesis it doesn't seem unreasonable to
address the issue.

At worst the science is proven wrong, we have lots of renewable enegy
and a glut of hi octane fuel for my Mustang.
James Christophers
2020-12-28 00:06:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
So they're not much different from the 'climate change' crowd with the difference that PragerU use facts rather than dodgy science.
PragerU use dodgy facts rather than science.
Fixed that for you, you're welcome!
We've covered this before. The current trends suggest a correlation
between pollution and climate change. Air temperatures, sea levels,
shrinking ice deposits have all been measured. When we are faced with
this evidence and reasonable hypothesis it doesn't seem unreasonable to
address the issue.
After all, isn't good science founded on reasonable hypothesis?
Post by Firu
At worst the science is proven wrong, we have lots of renewable enegy
and a glut of hi octane fuel for my Mustang.
Aporopos of which, what, exactly, are the desirable economics of a domestic vehicle that must necessarily expend the power required to hump around a battery weighing the additional approximate equivalent of four invisible but decidedly overweight adults?
Rich80105
2020-12-28 07:33:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
So they're not much different from the 'climate change' crowd with the difference that PragerU use facts rather than dodgy science.
PragerU use dodgy facts rather than science.
Fixed that for you, you're welcome!
We've covered this before. The current trends suggest a correlation
between pollution and climate change. Air temperatures, sea levels,
shrinking ice deposits have all been measured. When we are faced with
this evidence and reasonable hypothesis it doesn't seem unreasonable to
address the issue.
At worst the science is proven wrong, we have lots of renewable enegy
and a glut of hi octane fuel for my Mustang.
I've jus looked at the link - I could not understand why they thought
the only possible storage for excess solar generated electricity is
electric batteries - there has been discussion as to possible use of
excess power from Manapouri if the smelter closes - one possibility
was to raise the levels of water storage lakes; I am sure there are
other possibilities; including indutries developing ways of using
cheap power outside current high demand periods. Percentage efficiency
levels are largely irrelevant for some forms of power. It is not clear
what political or profit agenda messages were being sent, but ''dodgy
facts"" does seem to be relevant for the article.
Firu
2020-12-28 10:56:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Firu
At worst the science is proven wrong, we have lots of renewable enegy
and a glut of hi octane fuel for my Mustang.
I've jus looked at the link - I could not understand why they thought
the only possible storage for excess solar generated electricity is
electric batteries - there has been discussion as to possible use of
excess power from Manapouri if the smelter closes - one possibility
was to raise the levels of water storage lakes; I am sure there are
other possibilities; including indutries developing ways of using
cheap power outside current high demand periods. Percentage efficiency
levels are largely irrelevant for some forms of power. It is not clear
what political or profit agenda messages were being sent, but ''dodgy
facts"" does seem to be relevant for the article.
Just my world-view I guess.

The politics angle comes from the right wing bias of the site. Many
supporters of right wing ideas decry climate change as a scam
perpetrated by political opponents. Some might also own fossil fuel
generating plants and appreciate this sort of guff when they go a
lobbying . ;-)

The profit is promoting 'new' ways of burning stuff by the existing
fossil fuel generators. If they had invested in newer or renewable tech
I guess they might be on the other side of the fence.
Tony
2020-12-29 21:07:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
So they're not much different from the 'climate change' crowd with the
difference that PragerU use facts rather than dodgy science.
PragerU use dodgy facts rather than science.
Fixed that for you, you're welcome!
We've covered this before. The current trends suggest a correlation
between pollution and climate change. Air temperatures, sea levels,
shrinking ice deposits have all been measured. When we are faced with
this evidence and reasonable hypothesis it doesn't seem unreasonable to
address the issue.
At worst the science is proven wrong, we have lots of renewable enegy
and a glut of hi octane fuel for my Mustang.
I've jus looked at the link - I could not understand why they thought
the only possible storage for excess solar generated electricity is
electric batteries - there has been discussion as to possible use of
excess power from Manapouri if the smelter closes - one possibility
was to raise the levels of water storage lakes;
A possibility for New Zealand but many countries do not have the hydro
infrastructure that we have. The article was not aimed at us in particular.
What he was saying was aimed at wind and solar both of which have inherent
limitations and problems.
Post by Rich80105
I am sure there are
other possibilities; including indutries developing ways of using
cheap power outside current high demand periods. Percentage efficiency
levels are largely irrelevant for some forms of power. It is not clear
what political or profit agenda messages were being sent, but ''dodgy
facts"" does seem to be relevant for the article.
Gordon
2020-12-30 03:24:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned out by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
So they're not much different from the 'climate change' crowd with the
difference that PragerU use facts rather than dodgy science.
PragerU use dodgy facts rather than science.
Fixed that for you, you're welcome!
We've covered this before. The current trends suggest a correlation
between pollution and climate change. Air temperatures, sea levels,
shrinking ice deposits have all been measured. When we are faced with
this evidence and reasonable hypothesis it doesn't seem unreasonable to
address the issue.
At worst the science is proven wrong, we have lots of renewable enegy
and a glut of hi octane fuel for my Mustang.
I've jus looked at the link - I could not understand why they thought
the only possible storage for excess solar generated electricity is
electric batteries - there has been discussion as to possible use of
excess power from Manapouri if the smelter closes - one possibility
was to raise the levels of water storage lakes;
A possibility for New Zealand but many countries do not have the hydro
infrastructure that we have. The article was not aimed at us in particular.
What he was saying was aimed at wind and solar both of which have inherent
limitations and problems.
All forms of energy generation have problems. Sure wind and solar ar not the
silver bullet, but wind has shifted many a ship across oceans in the past.
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
I am sure there are
other possibilities; including indutries developing ways of using
cheap power outside current high demand periods. Percentage efficiency
levels are largely irrelevant for some forms of power. It is not clear
what political or profit agenda messages were being sent, but ''dodgy
facts"" does seem to be relevant for the article.
Hydro powers weakness is lack of water in the lake, either by dry year or
being drained owing to high power demand. So smoothing out the power is good
for the transmission system. This is going to get a hammering when 2 million
odd cars start charging off the grid. Electricity weak point is that it does
not have any any big capacity storage. It is a make and use model. cf
hydrocarbons, store and use model.

The main point is that all this has to be thought through and a plan
formulated. You know White or Green papers as they were called.
Tony
2020-12-30 03:38:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
https://www.prageru.com/video/whats-wrong-with-wind-and-solar/
Time perhaps to take another look at what some are saying is the future of
energy. This opinion by an expert is not new but is so often drowned
out
by
those with political or profit agendas.
Whole point of PragerU is to push a political or profit agenda ;-)
So they're not much different from the 'climate change' crowd with the
difference that PragerU use facts rather than dodgy science.
PragerU use dodgy facts rather than science.
Fixed that for you, you're welcome!
We've covered this before. The current trends suggest a correlation
between pollution and climate change. Air temperatures, sea levels,
shrinking ice deposits have all been measured. When we are faced with
this evidence and reasonable hypothesis it doesn't seem unreasonable to
address the issue.
At worst the science is proven wrong, we have lots of renewable enegy
and a glut of hi octane fuel for my Mustang.
I've jus looked at the link - I could not understand why they thought
the only possible storage for excess solar generated electricity is
electric batteries - there has been discussion as to possible use of
excess power from Manapouri if the smelter closes - one possibility
was to raise the levels of water storage lakes;
A possibility for New Zealand but many countries do not have the hydro
infrastructure that we have. The article was not aimed at us in particular.
What he was saying was aimed at wind and solar both of which have inherent
limitations and problems.
All forms of energy generation have problems. Sure wind and solar ar not the
silver bullet, but wind has shifted many a ship across oceans in the past.
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
I am sure there are
other possibilities; including indutries developing ways of using
cheap power outside current high demand periods. Percentage efficiency
levels are largely irrelevant for some forms of power. It is not clear
what political or profit agenda messages were being sent, but ''dodgy
facts"" does seem to be relevant for the article.
Hydro powers weakness is lack of water in the lake, either by dry year or
being drained owing to high power demand. So smoothing out the power is good
for the transmission system. This is going to get a hammering when 2 million
odd cars start charging off the grid. Electricity weak point is that it does
not have any any big capacity storage. It is a make and use model. cf
hydrocarbons, store and use model.
The main point is that all this has to be thought through and a plan
formulated. You know White or Green papers as they were called.
No, the main point is that in the New Zealand environment we are dependent on
this government to take the lead. They have some way to go but they are
entitled to a little more time.

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