Discussion:
Time for a bit of thinking!
(too old to reply)
Rich80105
2020-04-26 00:20:51 UTC
Permalink
https://aeon.co/ideas/private-gain-must-no-longer-be-allowed-to-elbow-out-the-public-good

Also see:
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1272183-capitalism-is-the-extraordinary-belief-that-the-nastiest-of-men

And just for Tony, yes some aspects of both are academic thinking,
some are political.
Willy Nilly
2020-04-26 00:56:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
https://aeon.co/ideas/private-gain-must-no-longer-be-allowed-to-elbow-out-the-public-good
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1272183-capitalism-is-the-extraordinary-belief-that-the-nastiest-of-men
Who posted this, Pol Pot?
Tony
2020-04-26 01:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
https://aeon.co/ideas/private-gain-must-no-longer-be-allowed-to-elbow-out-the-public-good
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1272183-capitalism-is-the-extraordinary-belief-that-the-nastiest-of-men
And just for Tony, yes some aspects of both are academic thinking,
some are political.
What a crock. The first link may be appropriate for the USA but not here.
The second one is pure communism.
BR
2020-04-26 22:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1272183-capitalism-is-the-extraordinary-belief-that-the-nastiest-of-men
Historically, the nastiest of men have been people in positions of
political power.

Bill.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
James Christophers
2020-04-27 04:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
https://aeon.co/ideas/private-gain-must-no-longer-be-allowed-to-elbow-out-the-public-good
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1272183-capitalism-is-the-extraordinary-belief-that-the-nastiest-of-men
And just for Tony, yes some aspects of both are academic thinking,
some are political.
At the end of the '70s and well into the '80s, Keynsian economics was dumped and Friedman's monetarism replaced it; and with a slash-and-burn vengeance like the world had never seen before, this courtesy of Hayek, Friedman, Greenspan and Thatcher, with an already mentally declining Reagan blindly bringing up the rear. "There is no such ting as Society" became the watchword of these icons of the neo-con age.

Then came the global financial crisis of 2008. What happened?

In a trice, 80's monetarism went out the window and, bugger me if Keynes and his thinking weren't immediately rehabilitated. To save their skins if not their souls, conspiring governments and their mates' capitalist owned public icons became Society's wards of state overnight.

IOW, the commons - Society disavowed - came to the rescue of capitalism and it was believed that in time all would return to order. Every economy would provide even more widely and more beneficially than ever before for its own consumers.

But what happened? Housing and house ownership, the base requisite of today's civilised existence, has become unaffordable for all but the already advantaged or the higher and highest waged.

It beggars belief that middle-income families cannot now survive without offshore-borrowed state handouts to make ends meet. Household are falling increasingly into debt because they must, of all things, use Visa to pay for the staples of life.

Meanwhile, John Key has just received the keys to his new luxury $6million Sydney waterside property, only then immediately to flick it on to the market to make a quick million or so of - that's right - non-earned, zero-productivity gain.

For this, the man gets a sycophantic hand-clap from the New Zealand media - your media.

And so it goes...

All this OK with you, then?
Crash
2020-04-27 05:37:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 21:09:38 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
https://aeon.co/ideas/private-gain-must-no-longer-be-allowed-to-elbow-out-the-public-good
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1272183-capitalism-is-the-extraordinary-belief-that-the-nastiest-of-men
And just for Tony, yes some aspects of both are academic thinking,
some are political.
At the end of the '70s and well into the '80s, Keynsian economics was dumped and Friedman's monetarism replaced it; and with a slash-and-burn vengeance like the world had never seen before, this courtesy of Hayek, Friedman, Greenspan and Thatcher, with an already mentally declining Reagan blindly bringing up the rear. "There is no such ting as Society" became the watchword of these icons of the neo-con age.
In NZ, the 70s and early 80s embodied the era of state control of the
economy, so not applicable here but maybe to northern hemisphere
economies.
Post by James Christophers
Then came the global financial crisis of 2008. What happened?
Very little in NZ. A few dodgy finance companies fell over and the
share market dipped but not for long. In this part of the world we
merely felt the ripples.
Post by James Christophers
In a trice, 80's monetarism went out the window and, bugger me if Keynes and his thinking weren't immediately rehabilitated. To save their skins if not their souls, conspiring governments and their mates' capitalist owned public icons became Society's wards of state overnight.
Eh?
Post by James Christophers
IOW, the commons - Society disavowed - came to the rescue of capitalism and it was believed that in time all would return to order. Every economy would provide even more widely and more beneficially than ever before for its own consumers.
Oh really? Can you put some historical fact to your observations? I
recall nothing of this ilk at that time in NZ.
Post by James Christophers
But what happened? Housing and house ownership, the base requisite of today's civilised existence, has become unaffordable for all but the already advantaged or the higher and highest waged.
Housing has indeed become less affordable over the last 20 years or so
in NZ, but unless you can give some facts to back up your assertion I
am at a loss to understand how you can justify your assertion.
Post by James Christophers
It beggars belief that middle-income families cannot now survive without offshore-borrowed state handouts to make ends meet. Household are falling increasingly into debt because they must, of all things, use Visa to pay for the staples of life.
What are you on about here? Mortgage funding indeed is bank-sourced
from off-shore funding but this is nothing to do with the State. Until
the recent COVID19 lock-down state-funding activity, we had one of the
lowest ratios of public debt to GDP.
Post by James Christophers
Meanwhile, John Key has just received the keys to his new luxury $6million Sydney waterside property, only then immediately to flick it on to the market to make a quick million or so of - that's right - non-earned, zero-productivity gain.
He bought that property some years ago off the plans. It has just
been completed and is now back on the market. So your observation of
a 'quick million' was neither quick not has the million-dollar profit
materialised. In a post-COVID economy, even in Australia, it might
take many more years for this windfall to materialise than it took for
the apartment to be built.

We are already seeing the real-estate market in Queenstown being
flooded by properties because of the end of international tourism.
This foreshadows a major shakeup of property values in NZ and probably
elsewhere.
Post by James Christophers
For this, the man gets a sycophantic hand-clap from the New Zealand media - your media.
And so it goes...
All this OK with you, then?
Given your emotive embellishment on the facts around Sir John Key's
apartment, I have marked your credibility down in the fact-supported
opinions department.


--
Crash McBash
Rich80105
2020-04-27 08:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 21:09:38 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
https://aeon.co/ideas/private-gain-must-no-longer-be-allowed-to-elbow-out-the-public-good
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1272183-capitalism-is-the-extraordinary-belief-that-the-nastiest-of-men
And just for Tony, yes some aspects of both are academic thinking,
some are political.
At the end of the '70s and well into the '80s, Keynsian economics was dumped and Friedman's monetarism replaced it; and with a slash-and-burn vengeance like the world had never seen before, this courtesy of Hayek, Friedman, Greenspan and Thatcher, with an already mentally declining Reagan blindly bringing up the rear. "There is no such ting as Society" became the watchword of these icons of the neo-con age.
In NZ, the 70s and early 80s embodied the era of state control of the
economy, so not applicable here but maybe to northern hemisphere
economies.
Fair comment up to July 1984, but the Rogernomics changes took place
fairly quickly after that - from the Wikipedia entry for Roger
Douglas: "The budget owed almost nothing to Labour's manifesto. Its
content closely matched the Treasury view set out in Economic
Management.[48] Douglas's identification with Treasury was complete by
1985. Treasury initiatives adopted by the government that were not
signalled before the 1984 election included the introduction of a
comprehensive tax on consumption (GST), the floating of the dollar
(which Douglas opposed until 1984) and the corporatisation of the
government's trading activities, announced at the end of 1985.[49]

Treasury's view of economic policy was neoclassical and monetarist,
and used commercial criteria as the basis for decision-making.[50]
Douglas did not concede that his advocacy of these views placed him on
the right of the political spectrum. "

There were further significant Ruthanasia changes from the next
government . . .
Post by Crash
Post by James Christophers
Then came the global financial crisis of 2008. What happened?
Very little in NZ. A few dodgy finance companies fell over and the
share market dipped but not for long. In this part of the world we
merely felt the ripples.
By that time inequality was a significant issue in New Zealand, and
the dismantling of trade training and the insistance on "lowest cost"
tendering were reducing efficiencies in the economy. Our tax rates on
income were among the lowest inthe world, resulting in a reduction in
state provision for health, education, social welfare and housing. The
banks were set up to deliver large profits to overseas shareholder,
and asset sales were unsuccesfully used to prop up increasing domestic
problems, but in fact delivered more crony capitalist profits to
selected individuals than benefits to New Zealand.
Post by Crash
Post by James Christophers
In a trice, 80's monetarism went out the window and, bugger me if Keynes and his thinking weren't immediately rehabilitated. To save their skins if not their souls, conspiring governments and their mates' capitalist owned public icons became Society's wards of state overnight.
Eh?
Post by James Christophers
IOW, the commons - Society disavowed - came to the rescue of capitalism and it was believed that in time all would return to order. Every economy would provide even more widely and more beneficially than ever before for its own consumers.
Oh really? Can you put some historical fact to your observations? I
recall nothing of this ilk at that time in NZ.
Post by James Christophers
But what happened? Housing and house ownership, the base requisite of today's civilised existence, has become unaffordable for all but the already advantaged or the higher and highest waged.
Housing has indeed become less affordable over the last 20 years or so
in NZ, but unless you can give some facts to back up your assertion I
am at a loss to understand how you can justify your assertion.
Post by James Christophers
It beggars belief that middle-income families cannot now survive without offshore-borrowed state handouts to make ends meet. Household are falling increasingly into debt because they must, of all things, use Visa to pay for the staples of life.
What are you on about here? Mortgage funding indeed is bank-sourced
from off-shore funding but this is nothing to do with the State. Until
the recent COVID19 lock-down state-funding activity, we had one of the
lowest ratios of public debt to GDP.
Largely thanks to the previous Labour-led governments that saw New
Zealand in a very good economic position - as Bill English had to
admit when he was seeking assistance from overseas for borrowing to
prop up the trading banks. 9 Years of the Key/English government got
our debts up intime for the next Labour-led government who inherited
the run down services that resulted from the answer to every problem
beng tax cuts!
Post by Crash
Post by James Christophers
Meanwhile, John Key has just received the keys to his new luxury $6million Sydney waterside property, only then immediately to flick it on to the market to make a quick million or so of - that's right - non-earned, zero-productivity gain.
He bought that property some years ago off the plans. It has just
been completed and is now back on the market. So your observation of
a 'quick million' was neither quick not has the million-dollar profit
materialised. In a post-COVID economy, even in Australia, it might
take many more years for this windfall to materialise than it took for
the apartment to be built.
We are already seeing the real-estate market in Queenstown being
flooded by properties because of the end of international tourism.
This foreshadows a major shakeup of property values in NZ and probably
elsewhere.
Post by James Christophers
For this, the man gets a sycophantic hand-clap from the New Zealand media - your media.
And so it goes...
All this OK with you, then?
Given your emotive embellishment on the facts around Sir John Key's
apartment, I have marked your credibility down in the fact-supported
opinions department.
Certainly Key remains a press darling. His obvious priority of making
huge amounts of money is unblinkingly admired; his enthusiastic
endorsement of a not-yet even and MP "fat cat" is uncritically
reported, including the fatuous rational that he will look after
"hard-working taxpayers" - which Key always used to demonise anyone
withut sufficient income to pay much income tax (GST was never
mentioned!) while excusing largesse to friendly businesses,
particularly the banks who duly delivered with a good position on his
realisation that it was time to get out of politics. I agree that he
may not have made millions on the Sydney property. What was
interesting is that it was acknowledged to have been owned by Key -
not all assets can be easily hidden in the tax-based trust
arrangements that he was known for supporting with the help of a
friend who used to be a lawyer. Key had no similar professional
impediments to looking after his own interests . . .
James Christophers
2020-04-27 23:05:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 21:09:38 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
https://aeon.co/ideas/private-gain-must-no-longer-be-allowed-to-elbow-out-the-public-good
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1272183-capitalism-is-the-extraordinary-belief-that-the-nastiest-of-men
And just for Tony, yes some aspects of both are academic thinking,
some are political.
At the end of the '70s and well into the '80s, Keynsian economics was dumped and Friedman's monetarism replaced it; and with a slash-and-burn vengeance like the world had never seen before, this courtesy of Hayek, Friedman, Greenspan and Thatcher, with an already mentally declining Reagan blindly bringing up the rear. "There is no such ting as Society" became the watchword of these icons of the neo-con age.
In NZ, the 70s and early 80s embodied the era of state control of the
economy, so not applicable here but maybe to northern hemisphere
economies.
Post by James Christophers
Then came the global financial crisis of 2008. What happened?
Very little in NZ. A few dodgy finance companies fell over and the
share market dipped but not for long. In this part of the world we
merely felt the ripples.
Yes. But elsewhere - and where it really matters in terms of global economic stability...?
Post by Crash
Post by James Christophers
In a trice, 80's monetarism went out the window and, bugger me if Keynes and his thinking weren't immediately rehabilitated. To save their skins if not their souls, conspiring governments and their mates' capitalist owned public icons became Society's wards of state overnight.
Eh?
The Banks, Crash! The Banks! Bailed out up north by the never-consulted taxpayer, and even as this was in progress the fraudsters were drawing more obscene bonuses than ever before.

Did you never once hear and take notice of that incessant thieves' kitchen chant, "Too big to fail"?
Post by Crash
Post by James Christophers
IOW, the commons - Society disavowed - came to the rescue of capitalism and it was believed that in time all would return to order. Every economy would provide even more widely and more beneficially than ever before for its own consumers.
Oh really? Can you put some historical fact to your observations? I
recall nothing of this ilk at that time in NZ.
My observations are made largely in the overall global sense because my interests and those of my extended family are "globally" engaged at least as much as they are in-country. (Again, little NZ doesn't really figure much in terms of influence in the overall scheme of 21st century global finances. Check its percentage-contribution to total world GDP.)
Post by Crash
Post by James Christophers
But what happened? Housing and house ownership, the base requisite of today's civilised existence, has become unaffordable for all but the already advantaged or the higher and highest waged.
Housing has indeed become less affordable over the last 20 years or so
in NZ, but unless you can give some facts to back up your assertion I
am at a loss to understand how you can justify your assertion.
Consider the numbers of those who, even if lucky enough now to own a roof over their heads, can expect still to be mortgaged as they turn cold 6-feet under.

And those who are now having to resign themselves to paying ever-increasing sums (partly) to fund some speculator-rentier's mortgage for him for the rest of their lives.
Post by Crash
Post by James Christophers
It beggars belief that middle-income families cannot now survive without offshore-borrowed state handouts to make ends meet. Household are falling increasingly into debt because they must, of all things, use Visa to pay for the staples of life.
What are you on about here? Mortgage funding indeed is bank-sourced
from off-shore funding but this is nothing to do with the State.
But local wage subsidies to under-waged earners are. And in spades.
Post by Crash
Until
the recent COVID19 lock-down state-funding activity, we had one of the
lowest ratios of public debt to GDP.
We did. But Covid or no, there is a limit to how much a low-waged economy can itself subsidise those who underpin that same economy. (Not entirely unlike Churchill's classic analogy of trying to tax your way to greater wealth is like standing in a bucket and trying to lift yourself up by the handles.)

One way of meeting the margin between the state's necessarily limited subsidies and that sum needed to keep its low-waged earners adequately fed and sheltered is through overseas borrowings. As long as wage-earners' incomes continue perniciously depressed as they are, and those earners' expectations (claims) don't exceed the presumed dollar value of their work, things can remain stable and overseas creditors and agencies can continue to prop up the country in return for for their tithe.

This is why an AA or an AAA from the ratings agencies are so crucial to maintaining the country's overall economic stability, both financial and societal. Things can only improve with consistently increased and further increasing **real** per-capita productivity (mushrooming cafés and property speculation don't cut it). Other than this, the country can only remain perniciously enslaved to its own 50+ years-long economic stagnation.

So far, I see no significant sign of this ever happening. Certainly the years from 2008 to 2017 did nothing to mitigate the pernicous stagnation that had been with us but this was not entirely due to the GFC as none other than Bill English would have told you.
Post by Crash
Post by James Christophers
Meanwhile, John Key has just received the keys to his new luxury $6million Sydney waterside property, only then immediately to flick it on to the market to make a quick million or so of - that's right - non-earned, zero-productivity gain.
He bought that property some years ago off the plans.
Agreed and **paid in full** up-front right there and then? I ask you this because I have some difficulty imagining John Key - of all the people in this world - parting with the full and final price merely on sight of a drawing or two to any construction company; this for the simple reason that you, he and I know construction outfits and developers come pretty near the top if the rankings when it comes to outfits evaporating into scotch mist the moment bankruptcy comes knocking.
Post by Crash
It has just
been completed and is now back on the market. So your observation of
a 'quick million' was neither quick not has the million-dollar profit
materialised. In a post-COVID economy, even in Australia, it might
take many more years for this windfall to materialise than it took for
the apartment to be built.
A not unreasonable supposition; except to say "quick million" is just a figure of speech attached so often to too-slick-by-half money men of Key's ignoble stripe. Of course, I could have typed a dry "added-value without effort" but it doesn't quite jive in the same way, does it?>
Post by Crash
We are already seeing the real-estate market in Queenstown being
flooded by properties because of the end of international tourism.
This foreshadows a major shakeup of property values in NZ and probably
elsewhere.
And you can bet not without some considerable pain.

Worse still, when you have a nation that blithely, drunkenly, spends years lavishing itself with "discretionary spending" by using Visa and the family home as credit-funding instrument and ATM respectively, then all that's left to be said is:

"Good luck you suckers, one an' all!"

As ever, the bailiff **always** comes calling...
Post by Crash
Post by James Christophers
For this, the man gets a sycophantic hand-clap from the New Zealand media - your media.
And so it goes...
All this OK with you, then?
Given your emotive embellishment on the facts around Sir John Key's
apartment, I have marked your credibility down in the fact-supported
opinions department.
And "For this relief, much thanks." (Hamlet) In the case of this posting and all those before it preceding, all I can offer in return is this humble misquotation:

"'Tis a poor thing, aye, but 'tis mine own."

Loading...