Discussion:
A2 and thank you too Howard and Corran
(too old to reply)
Goodfella
2006-05-14 05:36:41 UTC
Permalink
What's the difference between 'A1' and 'A2' milk?

The name comes from the type of protein in the milk. Milk from cows,
and any other milk producing animal, can vary quite a lot in the types
and amounts of proteins they contain.

Cow's milk contains six major proteins. Four are casein proteins, the
other two are whey proteins. Casein proteins make up about 80 percent
of the protein in cow's milk. A type of casein called beta-casein is
one of the major ones, and is itself of different kinds, depending on
the genetic make-up of the cow. The most common are beta-casein A1 and
beta-casein A2. Milk high in beta-casein A1 is being referred to as
'A1 milk' while milk high in beta-casein A2 is being called 'A2
milk'.

What milk am I drinking?

Milk produced in New Zealand and many other countries normally contains
a mixture of A1 and A2 beta-caseins. Different breeds can produce
different milk. For example Friesian cows produce mostly A1 milk, while
Guernsey cows, sheep and goats produce mostly A2 milk.

History

A2 Corporation Ltd was co-founded in February 2000 by scientist Dr
Corran McLachlan and entrepreneur Howard Paterson who shared a vision
to bring A2 Milk™ to consumers around the globe.

Dr McLachlan's research initially followed up a discovery made by
Professor Robert Elliott that countries which had a high incidence of
childhood diabetes also had a lower proportion of A2 type of beta
casein in their milk, and more of the A1 variant. Further work led
McLachlan to recognize a second remarkable correlation, linking the A1
variant even more strongly with mortality due to coronary heart
disease.

Originally it is believed that cows' milk, consumed by early humans
for its important nutritional value, contained only the A2 type of beta
casein. A1 and related minor variants (B,C and F) evolved through
natural genetic mutation and have spread in varying degrees to many of
the world's dairy herds, including those in most developed countries.

Dr McLachlan extended the research to examine if their existed any
apparent connection between the incidence of certain major diseases of
modern civilisation and the presence of variants of the major protein
types in milk. This work supported that of Professor Elliott and led Dr
McLachlan to further investigate the beta casein variants and their
possible links to a range of human conditions. Crucially, he also
recognized a simple method by which A1 beta casein and related minor
variants could be excluded from milk resulting in the presence of only
the A2 type to result in A2 Milk™

Based on this research, McLachlan and Paterson co-founded A2
Corporation Ltd which took out a suite of intellectual property,
including a cornerstone patent for a simple DNA test enabling farmers
to identify those cows in their herds that naturally produce A2
Milk™. The company then initiated dialogues with a number of parties
in the dairy industry to begin the process of bringing A2 Milk™ to
the market and encouraging farmers to switch to A2 Milk™ production.

Towards the end of 2003, A2 Corporation Ltd tragically lost both of its
inspirational co-founders, McLachlan and Paterson, who died within a
space of just a few months. However, the company today continues to
pursue their shared vision of facilitating the production of A2 Milk™
for the benefit of consumers and dairy producers.
rob
2006-05-14 06:04:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goodfella
What's the difference between 'A1' and 'A2' milk?
<snip>

Sounds like the A2 milk press release.....
Research is ongoing and at this time inconclusive either way
Enkidu
2006-05-14 06:35:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by rob
Post by Goodfella
What's the difference between 'A1' and 'A2' milk?
<snip>
Sounds like the A2 milk press release.....
Research is ongoing and at this time inconclusive either way
Hehehe!

http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/consumers/food-safety-topics/chemicals-in-food/milk-a1-a2/index.htm

Cheers,

Cliff
Peter Ashby
2006-05-14 07:46:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enkidu
Post by rob
Post by Goodfella
What's the difference between 'A1' and 'A2' milk?
<snip>
Sounds like the A2 milk press release.....
Research is ongoing and at this time inconclusive either way
Hehehe!
<http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/consumers/food-safety-topics/chemicals-in-food
/milk-a1-a2/index.htm>
That is a very good summary, well done nzfsa. Beware of scientists
peddling things based on correlational studies. Now if McLachlan &
Elliot had some mechanistic data from cell and/or animal studies showing
some indications of how beta casein A2 can be protective against Type 2
diabetes and coronary artery disease then maybe the world might take
more notice.

The sad thing of course is that in this world of 'pro-biotic' yoghurt,
'chemical free' organic produce and 'activated' water they may be onto a
money spinner.

Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country
Barry Phease
2006-05-14 08:45:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Ashby
The sad thing of course is that in this world of 'pro-biotic' yoghurt,
'chemical free' organic produce and 'activated' water they may be onto a
money spinner.
We all know that goat's milk is better for you anyway. :)
--
Barry Phease

mailto:***@es.co.nz
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~barryp
Goodfella
2006-05-15 04:02:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Phease
Post by Peter Ashby
The sad thing of course is that in this world of 'pro-biotic' yoghurt,
'chemical free' organic produce and 'activated' water they may be onto a
money spinner.
We all know that goat's milk is better for you anyway. :)
--
Barry Phease
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~barryp
Uh huh .. now why is that barry ?
Goats milk is way way higher in the A2 protein as well isnt it ?
Goodfella
2006-05-15 04:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Ashby
<http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/consumers/food-safety-topics/chemicals-in-food
/milk-a1-a2/index.htm>
That is a very good summary, well done nzfsa. Beware of scientists
peddling things based on correlational studies. Now if McLachlan &
Elliot had some mechanistic data from cell and/or animal studies showing
some indications of how beta casein A2 can be protective against Type 2
diabetes and coronary artery disease then maybe the world might take
more notice.
The sad thing of course is that in this world of 'pro-biotic' yoghurt,
'chemical free' organic produce and 'activated' water they may be onto a
money spinner.
Peter
Yeah thats really sad peter LMAO .. are deficient in selinium or zinc
or love or something LOL ..

To me even tho i quoted some of the nzfood and safety authority webpage
site in the opriginal post its a dry pieece of information at best ..
what they are saying imo is that they have no information to make any
specific relevant comment so they are suitting on the fence and
covering thier bases .. thats oK by me , but i dont put my intellectual
interest in fence sitters ..

Here are some user comments from consumers of the A2 type milk .. I've
also tried it myself and think it has a destinctivly nicer flavor than
the standard a1/a2 blend .. each to thier own .. you can drink the
stuff i find unpalatable .. thats cool by me .. drink up !!



**************
**************

Contained below are genuine unsolicited communications that A2
Corporation Ltd has received from consumers. Please note that they
express the view and observations of the private individuals and not
that of A2 Corporation Ltd. However, until formally investigated in
clinical trials, A2 Corporation Ltd cannot draw any firm conclusions or
make recommendations, with regard to these reports. We are,
nonetheless, quite delighted that our product is perceived to improve
the quality of life for these individuals and their families.
General Consumer Feedback

"I have 2 litres (of A2 Milk™) in my possession I love the taste
and have an autistic child who will only drink water or ... milk.
Please make this milk available in Victoria.
Regards
Linda"

"my kids have been unable to have ordinary cows milk until now.
Thankyou
Susannah"

"I was involved in a trial of A2 milk through Corrie Mc. Phil
Deniston sent over milk by air freight for my daughter. It was a great
success. But we still arent able to buy the product here in Perth. Is
there any way that we can get some here. It makes such a positive
change in my little girls life.
Thanks heaps
Trish"

"My Daughter introduced us to your wonderful milk. I have not been
able to drink milk for most of my life, but I find I can drink yours.
Unfortunately I have not been able to find it anywhere in the last
couple of weeks. Can you tell me if it is going to be restocked soon
please. I have read your press release re the demand outstripping the
supply, so thought I would email you to find out what is going on. We
live in Adelaide.
Many thanks
Rhonda"

"Thanks for your reply. I was at Coles yesterday and nearly jumped
for joy. Your A2 milk was back on the shelf!!! Thanks so much. It is
truly a wonderful milk. With ordinary milk, if I were to drink it I
would get terrible stomach cramps and feel violently ill. I am pleased
to say I don't get any of that with your milk. Also, I am concerned
about the health ramifications of the other milks on the market. My
husband has high blood pressure, and with the reduced risk of heart
disease using A2, along with other health benefits,well there really is
no contest is there.
Many thanks
Rhonda"

"I am visiting Adelaide, South Australia at the moment. I live in
Darwin and my husband & I have a three year old son with asthma. I have
tried the A2 milk in Adelaide and would like to buy it in Darwin. Can
you please let me know of any stores that stock A2 milk in Darwin...Now
that I have started it, I would like to continue giving my son the same
milk.
Cheers
Happy customer!"

"...to get your wonderful milk product from limited supplier could
you please advise of vendors in these areas particularly ... Thanking
You in anticipation Coral ... ps. We have tried your product and have
found that it is great for a variety of different problems."
"I have just discovered A2 milk...This is the first time I have been
able to have milk in years so please keep up the supply.
Vera"

"I am shortly coming to South Island for a 1 month holiday. I am
using A2 milk here in OZ and enjoying access to milk after a20 year
forced abstinence. I would like to know where I could I can buy A2 milk
as we will be rambling around the South island for over 3 weeks in a
motorhome...
Regards
Margaret"

"We ... purchase a2 milk at the local Deli. ... I loved the taste of
course.
We both like milk but find the general milk available sometimes seems
to produce mucous...
Regards
Jan Lindner"

"Just today i was introduced to your milk by our G.P. He suggested it
would be suitable to use for our six month old baby daughter to mix
with her baby cereal, as opposed to an infant formula. ...
Thank you
Regards
Hayley
p.s we are enjoying a glass of your delicious milk ourselves, best
we've tasted since we were kids" "I absolutely love the flavour of
A2 milk!! ...
Thanks
Kathy"

"I have tried your milk and reduced fat milk. It tastes like milk
used to taste ... it tastes delicious. I have a commercial coffee
machine and I have noticed that your milk behaves very well as milk for
cappucino etc...
Julie"

"im a milk maniac who drinks a lot of milk every day, since a2 being
introduced into Queensland i have not been able to get enough of it, i
work for ...so i am able to keep fairly stocked up of this great
stuff....because i love the creaminess of a2... full cream normal milk
taste watered down compared to a2...
Thank you
D.M" "I have been using A2 milk for a short while...I love the milk
which tastes like the milk of my childhood, real milk.
Your sincerely
Una"

"... A2 ...certainly tastes better, it doesn't have the "bitter"
taste that regular milk has...the best of luck ...
Regards
Chris" "...it is a great product and I would like to see it do well
The Product is 100% for taste never had better ...
Thanks
Brent"

"... A2 milk was recommended by a friend. I am extremely happy with
the taste and texture of the milk and would like to know whether it is
obtainable only from Foodtown, ... am certainly enthusiastic ... to
continue buying this milk." "Congratulations and thankyou for
bringing out a2. It tastes like the milk that we had when we were
children and I have had no problems in getting the rest of the family
to adopt it as 'our milk'.
I hope that the product succeeds in the market place - I am sure it
will ...
many thanks
Kay"

"Thanks for your advice on where to get A2 milk. It was a real treat
to have milk that ...tastes like milk used to in the good old days. I
will spread the good word. The 'blue milk' was so delicious I will have
to be careful that I don't drink too much and get fat!
Anni" "Firstly congrats on a great product all I can say is it is
about time !! ...
Many thanks
Georgina"

"I have been using A2 milk, ...I will to my best to enlighten others.
By the way the milk froths better than other milks, (for cappuccinos)
especially at this time of the year.
Thank you
Jenny"

"I am using and enjoying your milk. ...
Thanks
Kerri"

"...I love the milk! I have no dietary restrictions of any kind; i
just like to eat and drink things that are better for our bodies...
Bobby ..."

"I am a firm believer in A2 milk and it is all my 12 month old
drinks...
Rita" "We have tried the A2 milk and really enjoy drinking it...
Wendy and Stan"

Consumer Feedback Relating to Health and Well Being

"I recently began drinking A2 milk and now find it is the only milk I
can drink without suffering symptoms of Crohn's, proctitis and colitis
(diseases of the colon); I'm grateful A2 is available as an
alternative. As a lover of dairy foods, I am keen to find out if your
company produces A2 cream or other products. Please therefore advise if
A2 is available in forms other than milk.
Regards,
Maryann"

"I have recently been purchasing A2 Milk in South Australiafor my
daughter who suffers from a severe lung disorder and chronic asthma.
Having trailed the milk for several months...it has improved her
condition immensely.
Yours Thankfully
Shaun"

"We are avid buyers of A2 milk ... My husband suffers Irritable Bowel
Syndrome and it has been the ONLY thing to give him consistent
relief...
Cheers
Michele"

"...A2 milk ... has made an incredible difference to our 2 year old
son's bowel movements and also seems to have reduced the amount of
congestion and chest infections he has had...
Regards
Gina"

"I have noticed a big difference with my sinuses sincedrinking a2
milk...
Post by Peter Ashby
From an A2 Milk converter
Rhita"

"I visited the supermarket where we have been able to purchase A2
milk for our eldest son for some months tonight only to be informed
that A2 milk is no longer being produced. This information brought some
distress as A2 has enabled our son to reintroduce dairy products to his
diet and we feel it has been instrumental in the improvement in his
overall health and well being. Please advise ASAP if this information
is correct or where we can purchase in Adelaide your fantastic product.
Regards
Mark"

"Our 2 ½ year old son would get asthma when fed the slightest
amounts of dairy products. Since trying him on A2 milk not only have
there been no reactions but his tolerance to other dairy products seems
to have slightly increased too. Now our whole family uses A2 milk. Our
10 month old baby son had to go from breast to the bottle due to mum
having an operation. Against normal practice of not feeding babies'
straight cows' milk until 12 months, we put him straight onto A2 milk
without any problems...
Regards
Darren"


"Thanks for your email regarding the A2 milk, I have been drinking it
for a few weeks in moderation and have found it to be excellent. I have
had no side effects such as bloating or asthma as with the "normal"
cow's milk. I'll continue to drink the A2 milk.
Thanks
Ralph"


"I have tried both Full Cream and low fat Milk both A2 milk and I am
pleased to report that has been no effect from drinking this milk.
Regards
Tony"


Lactose intolerant "Thanks A2 Corporation - our little one already is
eating us out of house & home - but he still loves his milk ! Typical
boy !! My husband suffered quite debilitating stomach cramps all his
life - some Dr's said they were ulcers, whilst others said Irritable
Bowel Syndrome - in other words they weren't sure ! Ever since
Michael has started on the A2 milk he has been 110% - his stomach
cramps, and other symptoms are a rarity these days - instead of an
everyday thing ! Great stuff !
Cheers
Michele"

"I am allergic to many foods (the worst being milk) due to a chronic
severe sinus problem I have which makes my life a nightmare as far as
food is concerned. FINALLY I am able to find a milk that I am not
allergic to - thank you for giving me back part of my normal diet.
Christina"

"After purchasing A2 milk here ...for a couple of months ... I have
had wonderful health benefits just in that time. Please advise,
Regards
Tina"

"...I've had an enormous gain in health since drinking A2 milk ...
Cheers
Robert"
"I am visiting Adelaide, South Australia at the moment. I live in
Darwin and my husband & I have a three year old son with asthma. I have
tried the A2 milk in Adelaide and would like to buy it in Darwin. Can
you please let me know of any stores that stock A2 milk in Darwin. You
can email me back here please. Now that I have started it, I would like
to continue giving my son the same milk.
Cheers
Happy customer!"

"I have an ADHD boy of 11 and was using your milk while i could get
it from Pricechopper New Brighton - it was great!!!! When it
disappeared we went back to ordinary milk --- disaster!!!!! MY son has
had allergic "red eyes" for approx 2 months now and his behaviour is up
and down ---- I now know how much difference the A2 protein made
against the casein protein and would like to know how i can obtain it
again ------ please.
Regards
Juliette"

"I am over the moon about the A2 milk. I have a autistic grandson and
about Christmas my daughter sat in my house one night crying because
she was affraid that one morning she would find her son dead in bed. He
would not eat or drink anything and was just a skeleton with skin on.
She had tried everything that everyone told her to do but nothing
worked. I suggested once more for her to at least give A2 a try and she
said she did not want to build her hopes up again. I told her to at
least read about it on the webside and she figured it might be her last
hopw to keep her son. Well from the first bottle she noticed the
difference and now less than three months later he looks great ,walks,
talks, eats, drinks and is a playful cheeky little 4 year old inproving
day by day. And when he says"I love you Ma" to me I feel like a
millionair. I am so greatful for A2 milk that I would like the whole
world to know and hope that more children like him can find improvement
with A2 milk.
Regards
Bobbie"

"Thank you very much for your endeavour. My family tried ...your
...milk ...seem to be more digestible... Again, thank you for your
endeavour to improve things, and all the best.
Hari" "i have been troubled with arthritis in my both big toe
joints, and get a lot of bad pain when walking . and not been able to
move my big toes, since i have been drinking a2 full cream milk for
over a year now i find i can move my big toe joints with out any pain
what so ever now. and my cholesterol has not increased at all, thank
you...bill"

More Detailed Feedback

"My husband & I thought we would try A2 Milk because of the benefits
we heard about on TV. I suffer sinus and noticed that while on A2 Milk
my sinuses were not half as bad. We couldn't buy A2 milk for a week or
so, so I had to drink "normal" milk again and straight away noticed my
sinuses blocking up more and getting headaches. Once I could get the A2
Milk again the symptoms lessoned and a few times now when I have not
been able to purchase the A2 milk & go back on the normal milk, again
my sinuses block up and my sinus symptoms are so much worse! It has got
to the point now that I take my own A2 Milk to work now so that I won't
have to use normal milk (that the company I work for supplies) because
I know I will be so much more healthy and 'sinus free' while using A2!!
Thank you so much - I think A2Milk is wonderful and I tell everyone so.
We also notice that it goes the quickest in the supermarket which tells
us that a lot of people are buying it. Even though it costs
considerably more than the usual brands of milk, we find it is worth
paying the extra because we are actually saving money by not having to
buy as many nose drops and tablets to treat the sinus problem! So in
the end, it's not really more expensive at all but is saving us money!
Thank you and please supply the milk to more places. While in NSW on
holidays we could not find any place that sold A2 and the friends &
family who live there have never heard of it!!!!!
Cheers
Jenny"


"I'd just like to share with you our story. My son,8 yrs, has a
personality which makes it hard for him to keep friends and also he has
several personality and attention problems. We have had hearing tests,
eye tests, pediatricians, and others, just to see if we could put a
name to his personality, so that we can best know how to work with him.
He shows some signs of add, but not enough, some of aspergers, but not
enough, etc. Since going onto a2, he is much easier to deal with on so
many levels. At first we didn't know if he was just going through a
good phase or if it was the milk. Then the milk got taken off the
shelvesfor a while, and he reverted back to his old self. Since going
back onto the milk again, now that its back on the shelves, he has
changed for the good again. Thank you for this product and keep up the
research.
Regards
Trevor"


"My two children both have cow's milk allergies and while pregnant
and also while breastfeeding my youngest child I have had to remove all
dairy from my diet in order to hopefully minimize any long term
allergy. I have also had to remove such things as fish, shell fish,
nuts, soy and eggs from my diet given the family history of allergies.
As you might imagine, this does not give me much choice, diet wise.
When the a2 milk became available I was desperate to try it and watch
for any reaction in my youngest child. So far, it's been 6 days and
no reaction whatsoever. Finally, I can enjoy a drink of milk! My older
child has also had mild eczema which has now almost disappeared within
the same time span. Congratulations a2 Corporation. I cannot speak
highly enough of your milk and your perseverance to get it on the
market. Thank you again for your prompt reply,
Regards
Wendy"


"I am over the moon about the A2 milk. I have a autistic grandson and
about Christmas my daughter sat in my house one night crying because
she was afraid that one morning she would find her son dead in bed. He
would not eat or drink anything and was just a skeleton with skin on.
She had tried everything that everyone told her to do but nothing
worked. I suggested once more for her to at least give A2 a try and she
said she did not want to build her hopes up again. I told her to at
least read about it on the website and she figured it might be her last
hope to keep her son. Well from the first bottle she noticed the
difference and now less than three months later he looks great ,walks,
talks, eats, drinks and is a playful cheeky little 4 year old improving
day by day. And when he says "I love you Ma" to me I feel like a
millionaire. I am so greatful for A2 milk that I would like the whole
world to know and hope that more children like him can find improvement
with A2 milk.
Regards
Bobbie"


"I am the mother of an 11 year old boy diagnosed with Aspergers
Syndrome. I thought you would be interested in some feedback as we have
been using a2 milk for about 7 weeks now. We are very excited about the
positive effects of the product and can put the changes in behaviour
down to nothing else but the change in milk. In fact as we are at the
end of the school term which often brings negative behaviour it's even
more fantastic. Our son is definitely more focused and seems to be
more'on the planet', more connected.. it's hard to describe until you
have lived with autism, but he is definitely less distant.School have
noticed changes too, verified by his best ever school report citing
more interaction, satisfaction from successes and increased
responsibility for his own learning. Our son seems very settled and
happy, more in control of his actions and family life has become so
much less stressful. The only challenge we face is keeping up the
supply of milk when we head down south for a skiing holiday as there is
no way we will do without it now!!!!!!!
Kind Regards
Bridget"
Peter Ashby
2006-05-15 10:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
<http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/consumers/food-safety-topics/chemicals-in-food
/milk-a1-a2/index.htm>
That is a very good summary, well done nzfsa. Beware of scientists
peddling things based on correlational studies. Now if McLachlan &
Elliot had some mechanistic data from cell and/or animal studies showing
some indications of how beta casein A2 can be protective against Type 2
diabetes and coronary artery disease then maybe the world might take
more notice.
The sad thing of course is that in this world of 'pro-biotic' yoghurt,
'chemical free' organic produce and 'activated' water they may be onto a
money spinner.
Peter
Yeah thats really sad peter LMAO .. are deficient in selinium or zinc
or love or something LOL ..
To me even tho i quoted some of the nzfood and safety authority webpage
site in the opriginal post its a dry pieece of information at best ..
what they are saying imo is that they have no information to make any
specific relevant comment so they are suitting on the fence and
covering thier bases .. thats oK by me , but i dont put my intellectual
interest in fence sitters ..
So to point out correctly that there is no causitive evidence in
relation to beta casein A2 and diabetes or heart disease is fence
sitting is it? Well I for one would prefer government agencies to
operate on the basis of what is known and inform people of that instead
of essentially going off into faith based territory which is what A2
based milk is in the presence of only correlative data.

Remember back in the '70s when epidemiological data showed that people
who drank a lot of coffee had higher blood pressure and cancer? turned
out such people also tended to be stress driven overachievers who also
smoked, drank, ate badly and took little exercise. So the coffee wasn't
causing any of the problems it was simply associative.

At the moment we are at that stage with A2 milk. It may be that someone
else will show that drinking A2 while associated with lower diabetes and
heart disease increases something like cancer rates and bowel disease,
or no possible mechanism can be found.

I can think of several possible mechanisms, such as that Beta casein A2
when cleaved during digestion yields a peptide which for eg reduces
insulin sensitivity and inhibits foam cells. Searching for such a
peptide would not only be a big boost for A2 milk but more importantly
would catapault the peptide into drug trials. So if they truly think
there is something there then there are potentially much bigger payoffs
than niche 'health food' marketing of milk.

Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country
Goodfella
2006-05-15 23:05:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Ashby
So to point out correctly that there is no causitive evidence in
relation to beta casein A2 and diabetes or heart disease is fence
sitting is it?
Yep from my point of view it is .. quite right .
Post by Peter Ashby
Well I for one would prefer government agencies to
operate on the basis of what is known and inform people of that instead
of essentially going off into faith based territory which is what A2
based milk is in the presence of only correlative data.
I dont give a hoot what the governments opinion is about the quality of
drinking Milk myself .. what the technical experts say interests me
greatly and i feel that dairy products represents one of the greatest
potential development industries for new zealand, so i advocate any and
all productive research and progress in the industry .. btw correlative
data is fine with me
Post by Peter Ashby
Remember back in the '70s when epidemiological data showed that people
who drank a lot of coffee had higher blood pressure and cancer? turned
out such people also tended to be stress driven overachievers who also
smoked, drank, ate badly and took little exercise. So the coffee wasn't
causing any of the problems it was simply associative.
nope .. remember when the food authoritties were telling us that eggs
were bad for uus because of cholesterol even tho the eggs have a high
proportion of lecithin etc which have been shown to lower damaging
cholesterol levels .. after all have you seen many fat chickens ?? the
authorities are generally scaremongers imo ..
Post by Peter Ashby
At the moment we are at that stage with A2 milk. It may be that someone
else will show that drinking A2 while associated with lower diabetes and
heart disease increases something like cancer rates and bowel disease,
or no possible mechanism can be found.
Uh .. huh .. its still a new milk product bought into the world market
by new zealanders that has been well recieved by many people (including
myself) who areguably may be more sensitive to these things than some
other people ... Looks good tastes good , I guess i have a good dose of
the Australian progressive attitude to things and find the product
deceidely refreshing .. Yes Enkidu you can wait until govermnet
authorities proove everything to you .. you will be living a funny sort
of existence i suppose but each to thier own eh? .
Post by Peter Ashby
I can think of several possible mechanisms, such as that Beta casein A2
when cleaved during digestion yields a peptide which for eg reduces
insulin sensitivity and inhibits foam cells. Searching for such a
peptide would not only be a big boost for A2 milk but more importantly
would catapault the peptide into drug trials. So if they truly think
there is something there then there are potentially much bigger payoffs
than niche 'health food' marketing of milk.
??

Have you tried the milk yet or are you fence sitting ??
Peter Ashby
2006-05-16 11:06:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
At the moment we are at that stage with A2 milk. It may be that someone
else will show that drinking A2 while associated with lower diabetes and
heart disease increases something like cancer rates and bowel disease,
or no possible mechanism can be found.
Uh .. huh .. its still a new milk product bought into the world market
by new zealanders that has been well recieved by many people (including
myself) who areguably may be more sensitive to these things than some
other people ... Looks good tastes good , I guess i have a good dose of
the Australian progressive attitude to things and find the product
deceidely refreshing .. Yes Enkidu you can wait until govermnet
authorities proove everything to you .. you will be living a funny sort
of existence i suppose but each to thier own eh? .
I think you have mistaken my for someone else, I have never posted to
usenet under any moniker than my present one. As for living an evidence
based life, as a scientist that is precisely what I try and do where
practical. Which means when someone makes a claim that with A2 milk I
will shrug and refuse to part with my hard earned money for the
inevitably inflated product. Thus I do not as a rule shell out for
organic produce and am more than happy to drink the local tap water.

But people who peddle such things rely on the credulous to make money as
I intimated earlier in the thread. You have amply proved my point. I am
sure they will do very well, for a while at least. I hope they spend
your dollars wisely, since you obviously won't.
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
I can think of several possible mechanisms, such as that Beta casein A2
when cleaved during digestion yields a peptide which for eg reduces
insulin sensitivity and inhibits foam cells. Searching for such a
peptide would not only be a big boost for A2 milk but more importantly
would catapault the peptide into drug trials. So if they truly think
there is something there then there are potentially much bigger payoffs
than niche 'health food' marketing of milk.
??
Have you tried the milk yet or are you fence sitting ??
I have a latent lactose intolerance so I am not a great consumer of raw
milk. At one time ice cream would go straight through me in about 20min.
But that is beside the point which you don't seem to get, which is
without the proper evidence the claims for the biological benefits of A2
milk are faith based. Diabetes and heart disease are multifactorial
conditions based partly on genetic susceptibilities. So correlative
things are, by themselves, merely indicative and may have no bearing.
This applies as much to genetic epidemiological studies as are conducted
in the last lab I worked in. Which is why cell and animal studies are
done to understand the biological effects of the changes found to
associate with the conditions.

If you refuse to understand this, which you seem to be doing then you
are deliberately choosing ignorance and faith over knowledge. You are of
course free so to do, but don't expect to be taken seriously.

If you wish the government to spend your tax dollars doing the same then
you are free to vote for a faith based party. Just don't be surprised if
you find yourself in a minority.

Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country
Goodfella
2006-05-16 17:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
At the moment we are at that stage with A2 milk. It may be that someone
else will show that drinking A2 while associated with lower diabetes and
heart disease increases something like cancer rates and bowel disease,
or no possible mechanism can be found.
Uh .. huh .. its still a new milk product bought into the world market
by new zealanders that has been well recieved by many people (including
myself) who areguably may be more sensitive to these things than some
other people ... Looks good tastes good , I guess i have a good dose of
the Australian progressive attitude to things and find the product
deceidely refreshing .. Yes Enkidu you can wait until govermnet
authorities proove everything to you .. you will be living a funny sort
of existence i suppose but each to thier own eh? .
I think you have mistaken my for someone else, I have never posted to
usenet under any moniker than my present one.
My Apologies o was confusing you with another Peter ..
Post by Peter Ashby
As for living an evidence
based life, as a scientist that is precisely what I try and do where
practical.
I dont know about that .. scientists have a different set of prejudices
, not nessecarily a better set imo .
Post by Peter Ashby
Which means when someone makes a claim that with A2 milk I
will shrug and refuse to part with my hard earned money for the
inevitably inflated product. Thus I do not as a rule shell out for
organic produce and am more than happy to drink the local tap water.
Yes but perhaps you are not healthy enough to realise whats going on ..
yes you might bve precise and conservative enough to be a very useful
tool to the establishment , but i foor one am very semsitive to all
sorts of pollutants (sort of a canary in the coal mine effect) and i
find much tapwater vile .. yet relish fresh water and in fact source my
drinking water from as close to the reservoir as practical not because
i want to but because my ody plain doesnt want to drink tap water .. of
course you realise that organic produce in the main has a higher
nutrient value than standard force fed produce? ..

no big deal ? yeah well maybe .. i hear all sorts of reasons why people
want to lower standards .. you might be right for you but it sure isnt
right for me and apparently a growing number of others , but each to
thier own . I just feel that i deserve better .
Post by Peter Ashby
But people who peddle such things rely on the credulous to make money as
I intimated earlier in the thread. You have amply proved my point. I am
sure they will do very well, for a while at least. I hope they spend
your dollars wisely, since you obviously won't.
So much for scientific precision .. now its turned into something far
more partial hasnt it ? The requisite proof you require isnt in yet ,
but now not only are you refraining you are condemning early adopters
who apparently from accounts i have seen and my own experience are more
aware of certain things than you .As i say Scienmtists have a different
set of prejudices than the main .. the impartial precise sceintific
image you like to see yourself as is i submit a figment of your
imagination and your psychologuical need to affirm your own value and
credibility .. but you are still prejudiced .
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
I can think of several possible mechanisms, such as that Beta casein A2
when cleaved during digestion yields a peptide which for eg reduces
insulin sensitivity and inhibits foam cells. Searching for such a
peptide would not only be a big boost for A2 milk but more importantly
would catapault the peptide into drug trials. So if they truly think
there is something there then there are potentially much bigger payoffs
than niche 'health food' marketing of milk.
??
Have you tried the milk yet or are you fence sitting ??
I have a latent lactose intolerance so I am not a great consumer of raw
milk.
oK .. your Mr precision based on fact .. So how do you know you are
Lactose intolerant? wheres your proof .. i have had milk go thru me as
well but not allways .. I used to live next to a major milk stration
and had large experience with milk products from an observational and
consumption point of view .. i found that all milk products are not at
all alike and that the curdle rate amongst other things differed from
batch to batch .. maybe theres more to it that the "lactose intolerant"
story that scientists have readily peddled over the years .. S how dis
you ascertain your undeniable proof that you are lactose intolerant amd
not in fact intolerant of some other artifact of Milk ? .. and have you
proven that Milk intolerance" is not an attribute of your ardent belief
in processed foods .. my personal experience is that food quality and
digestion are intimately related ..
Post by Peter Ashby
At one time ice cream would go straight through me in about 20min.
But that is beside the point which you don't seem to get, which is
without the proper evidence the claims for the biological benefits of A2
milk are faith based.
Unless you can prove that you are genetically "Lactose intollerant"
then you assertion is also faith based .. I have made no assertions as
to the scientific status of the ramifications of a2 milk .. i copied
verbatim some material widely availiable from the major sources on the
web .. my "faith" as you refer to it is merely that i like progress
very much and value the potential of the dairy industry greatly and
that when i sampled the a2 variety milk i found it very agreeeeable ...
as i say your prejudices are of a differet set ..
Post by Peter Ashby
Diabetes and heart disease are multifactorial
conditions based partly on genetic susceptibilities.
yada yada yada .. thats a very meely mouthed comment if you dont mind
mne saying so .. diabetes and heart disease are clearly diet related
for most/many peiople nowadays .. i thought you would be able to be
more precise than that actually .. str you sure you know as much as you
scientific prejudices tell you you do ??
Post by Peter Ashby
So correlative
things are, by themselves, merely indicative and may have no bearing.
Blah blah .. for a scientist who follows faithfully the published
materuial thats oK but for functional progress an un-acceptance of the
importance of correlation is mere stupidity from a scientifiuc point of
view .. if observational correlation was erased from 'science' then
lettle if any progress in ubderstanding of the interactions of things
would ever be gained ..
Post by Peter Ashby
This applies as much to genetic epidemiological studies as are conducted
in the last lab I worked in. Which is why cell and animal studies are
done to understand the biological effects of the changes found to
associate with the conditions.
'association' is another word for 'correlation' is it not ?
Post by Peter Ashby
If you refuse to understand this, which you seem to be doing then you
are deliberately choosing ignorance and faith over knowledge. You are of
course free so to do, but don't expect to be taken seriously.
Blah blah .. please do not take me seriously .. i dont want to be taken
.. seriously i dont . You are welcome to contiue on your own path
following your own beliefs ,,, i am not trying to change you at all ..
i just copied an pasted some material that i thought was interesting ..
apparently you found it interesting as well , although you might want
to deny that . Whatever.. being taken seriously is the least of my
concerns in this instance . Drink your water and avoid your milk .. i
really dont care much about what you do to yourself .. me tho i want
more from my life and my body deserves more i feel , but that is my
opinion - you choose your own destiny .
Post by Peter Ashby
If you wish the government to spend your tax dollars doing the same then
you are free to vote for a faith based party. Just don't be surprised if
you find yourself in a minority.
its rather sickening to see you bounce from your belief in your own
precision and all that maloney into this rampant deroggatory assertions
about other people Peter .. but i am sure you see perfection in all you
do .. the minority at times suits me just fine , but i suppose the idea
scares you , maybe even gives tyou trhe shits but i could be wrong ..
it just se3ems that way from the way you pur forward your ideas
Peter Ashby
2006-05-16 20:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
At the moment we are at that stage with A2 milk. It may be that someone
else will show that drinking A2 while associated with lower diabetes and
heart disease increases something like cancer rates and bowel disease,
or no possible mechanism can be found.
Uh .. huh .. its still a new milk product bought into the world market
by new zealanders that has been well recieved by many people (including
myself) who areguably may be more sensitive to these things than some
other people ... Looks good tastes good , I guess i have a good dose of
the Australian progressive attitude to things and find the product
deceidely refreshing .. Yes Enkidu you can wait until govermnet
authorities proove everything to you .. you will be living a funny sort
of existence i suppose but each to thier own eh? .
I think you have mistaken my for someone else, I have never posted to
usenet under any moniker than my present one.
My Apologies o was confusing you with another Peter ..
Post by Peter Ashby
As for living an evidence
based life, as a scientist that is precisely what I try and do where
practical.
I dont know about that .. scientists have a different set of prejudices
, not nessecarily a better set imo .
Boy are you one screwed up dude. If you want to live in a world where
using the absolute best way mankind has ever developed to find out the
truth about the universe and how it works as 'prejudice' then I dearly
hope you enjoy living in the 13th century.
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
Which means when someone makes a claim that with A2 milk I
will shrug and refuse to part with my hard earned money for the
inevitably inflated product. Thus I do not as a rule shell out for
organic produce and am more than happy to drink the local tap water.
Yes but perhaps you are not healthy enough to realise whats going on ..
You what? how much exercise have you done this week you arrogant sod? On
Sunday I ran 6.6miles, on Monday 3, Today 4.5. On Thursday I will run
laps of my hill circuit, it rises 45metres in 400m. Good for the lung
burn. That is aside from everything else I have been doing. So if you
have any more ad hominem attacks in lieu of argument, keep them to
yourself.
Post by Goodfella
yes you might bve precise and conservative enough to be a very useful
tool to the establishment ,
Woooo! not content with ad hominems now we are into conspiracy theory
mode. For your information I have never worked for any government apart
from tutoring some Malaysian students in Physiology when I was a PhD
student (I got paid by Foreign Affairs) other than that we are talking
research in medical institutes and universities. How 'bout you?

Now any arguments....
Post by Goodfella
but i foor one am very semsitive to all
sorts of pollutants (sort of a canary in the coal mine effect) and i
find much tapwater vile .. yet relish fresh water and in fact source my
drinking water from as close to the reservoir as practical not because
i want to but because my ody plain doesnt want to drink tap water .. of
course you realise that organic produce in the main has a higher
nutrient value than standard force fed produce? ..
Nope, since all the independent research I have seen on the issue has
signally failed to find any significant differences. Feel free to post
any research to the contrary. So now we have a bald, unsupported
assertion in lieu of argument. Slightly better than ad hominems and
conspiracy theories, but not much.
Post by Goodfella
no big deal ? yeah well maybe .. i hear all sorts of reasons why people
want to lower standards .. you might be right for you but it sure isnt
right for me and apparently a growing number of others , but each to
thier own . I just feel that i deserve better .
Ah now we are into StrawMan argument mode. I challenge you to
demonstrate where in this thread I have advocated 'lower standards'. Go
on I dare you.
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
But people who peddle such things rely on the credulous to make money as
I intimated earlier in the thread. You have amply proved my point. I am
sure they will do very well, for a while at least. I hope they spend
your dollars wisely, since you obviously won't.
So much for scientific precision .. now its turned into something far
more partial hasnt it ? The requisite proof you require isnt in yet ,
but now not only are you refraining you are condemning early adopters
who apparently from accounts i have seen and my own experience are more
aware of certain things than you .As i say Scienmtists have a different
set of prejudices than the main .. the impartial precise sceintific
image you like to see yourself as is i submit a figment of your
imagination and your psychologuical need to affirm your own value and
credibility .. but you are still prejudiced .
Aware of what precisely? go on don't be coy, you can tell me and all the
lurkers.
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
I can think of several possible mechanisms, such as that Beta casein A2
when cleaved during digestion yields a peptide which for eg reduces
insulin sensitivity and inhibits foam cells. Searching for such a
peptide would not only be a big boost for A2 milk but more importantly
would catapault the peptide into drug trials. So if they truly think
there is something there then there are potentially much bigger payoffs
than niche 'health food' marketing of milk.
??
Have you tried the milk yet or are you fence sitting ??
I have a latent lactose intolerance so I am not a great consumer of raw
milk.
oK .. your Mr precision based on fact .. So how do you know you are
Lactose intolerant? wheres your proof .. i have had milk go thru me as
well but not allways
I have always been lactose intolerant, It is not that unusual, in fact
it is the normal condition of the vast majority of humanity. I have also
tested positive on a lactose hydrogen breath test. Marks if you can tell
me what that entails.

.. I used to live next to a major milk stration
Post by Goodfella
and had large experience with milk products from an observational and
consumption point of view .. i found that all milk products are not at
all alike and that the curdle rate amongst other things differed from
batch to batch .. maybe theres more to it that the "lactose intolerant"
story that scientists have readily peddled over the years .. S how dis
you ascertain your undeniable proof that you are lactose intolerant amd
not in fact intolerant of some other artifact of Milk ? .. and have you
proven that Milk intolerance" is not an attribute of your ardent belief
in processed foods .. my personal experience is that food quality and
digestion are intimately related ..
Yet again we have a Strawman argument. I further challenge you to show
where I have this 'ardent belief in processed foods'. Just because I
fail to swallow your faith based evidence in the wonderful qualities of
A2 milk and organic produce does not mean I have the aforementioned
belief. There is more to argument than people adopting polarised
positions you know.
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
At one time ice cream would go straight through me in about 20min.
But that is beside the point which you don't seem to get, which is
without the proper evidence the claims for the biological benefits of A2
milk are faith based.
Unless you can prove that you are genetically "Lactose intollerant"
then you assertion is also faith based .. I have made no assertions as
to the scientific status of the ramifications of a2 milk .. i copied
verbatim some material widely availiable from the major sources on the
web
Which act qualifies as promotion, your further claims in this thread
reinforce that conclusion. If you don't want to have a label don't act
in ways that attract it:

.. my "faith" as you refer to it is merely that i like progress
Post by Goodfella
very much and value the potential of the dairy industry greatly and
that when i sampled the a2 variety milk i found it very agreeeeable ...
as i say your prejudices are of a differet set ..
I see, so in your mind because A2 milk is subjectively 'agreeable' that
means it ipso facto also prevents type 2 diabetes and coronary heart
disease. It is strange that you are so fond of 'progress' yet are averse
to science. But then few things about you are surprising to me any more.
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
Diabetes and heart disease are multifactorial
conditions based partly on genetic susceptibilities.
yada yada yada .. thats a very meely mouthed comment if you dont mind
mne saying so .. diabetes and heart disease are clearly diet related
for most/many peiople nowadays .. i thought you would be able to be
more precise than that actually .. str you sure you know as much as you
scientific prejudices tell you you do ??
1: Doney AS, Fischer B, Lee SP, Morris AD, Leese G, Palmer CN.
Association of common variation in the PPARA gene with incident
myocardial
infarction in individuals with type 2 diabetes: A Go-DARTS study.
Nucl Recept. 2005 Nov 25;3:4.
PMID: 16309557 [PubMed - in process]

2: Doney AS, Lee S, Leese GP, Morris AD, Palmer CN.
Increased cardiovascular morbidity and mortality in type 2 diabetes is
associated with the glutathione S transferase theta-null genotype: a
Go-DARTS
study.
Circulation. 2005 Jun 7;111(22):2927-34. Epub 2005 May 31.
PMID: 15927971 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3: Doney AS, Fischer B, Leese G, Morris AD, Palmer CN.
Cardiovascular risk in type 2 diabetes is associated with variation at
the
PPARG locus: a Go-DARTS study.
Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 2004 Dec;24(12):2403-7. Epub 2004 Oct 14.
PMID: 15486307 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4: Doney AS, Fischer B, Cecil JE, Boylan K, McGuigan FE, Ralston SH,
Morris AD,
Palmer CN.
Association of the Pro12Ala and C1431T variants of PPARG and their
haplotypes
with susceptibility to Type 2 diabetes.
Diabetologia. 2004 Mar;47(3):555-8. Epub 2004 Jan 17.
PMID: 14730381 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

And that is just the most recent stuff from the lab I used to work in,
my stuff was on the role of PPARd in mice so I am not on those papers
but I used to work for Colin Palmer, have been drinking with him and
Alex Downey, Simon Lee is the techician who did most of the grunt work
and a good guy, Alex and most of the others are clinicians, but we try
not hold that against them. Go-DARTS is a large study on the pharmaco
genetic basis of things like obesity, diabetes and heart disease in
Tayside Scotland.

Some advice, don't challenge a scientist to back up something like this,
if you want more then the database is:

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed>

It is the primary repository of research papers in biomedical science.
It is free to all, though I of course cannot guarantee that you will be
able to understand what you find... it understands Boolean logic if you
put it in capitals, but it has a good help site.
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
So correlative
things are, by themselves, merely indicative and may have no bearing.
Blah blah .. for a scientist who follows faithfully the published
materuial thats oK but for functional progress an un-acceptance of the
importance of correlation is mere stupidity from a scientifiuc point of
view .. if observational correlation was erased from 'science' then
lettle if any progress in ubderstanding of the interactions of things
would ever be gained ..
Bollocks, as I have pointed out wrt to caffeine, the history of science
is littered with correlational studies that have fallen by the wayside
as they are proven to be spurious and merely associative. I have an open
mind wrt A2 milk, indeed I have posted a hypothetical method by which it
could act. This is hardly the act of someone as closed-minded as you
would have people believe.
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
This applies as much to genetic epidemiological studies as are conducted
in the last lab I worked in. Which is why cell and animal studies are
done to understand the biological effects of the changes found to
associate with the conditions.
'association' is another word for 'correlation' is it not ?
Nope, correlation is used to indicate that things occur together without
judging whether one is causitive on the other or not. if it is found not
to be causitive then it becomes merely associative. For eg it is
correlative but associative that everyone who has drunk water has died.
One of the ways of doing science properly is to use the language with
precision, which is difficult in English, but not impossible.
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
If you refuse to understand this, which you seem to be doing then you
are deliberately choosing ignorance and faith over knowledge. You are of
course free so to do, but don't expect to be taken seriously.
Blah blah .. please do not take me seriously .. i dont want to be taken
.. seriously i dont . You are welcome to contiue on your own path
following your own beliefs ,,, i am not trying to change you at all ..
i just copied an pasted some material that i thought was interesting ..
apparently you found it interesting as well , although you might want
to deny that . Whatever.. being taken seriously is the least of my
concerns in this instance . Drink your water and avoid your milk .. i
really dont care much about what you do to yourself .. me tho i want
more from my life and my body deserves more i feel , but that is my
opinion - you choose your own destiny .
Fine, just don't try and use spurious science to give a gloss to a
product. Just beware of recent cases in NZ and be careful not to make
such claims on the labels or in advertising since a correlative study
will not stand up in court.
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
If you wish the government to spend your tax dollars doing the same then
you are free to vote for a faith based party. Just don't be surprised if
you find yourself in a minority.
its rather sickening to see you bounce from your belief in your own
precision and all that maloney into this rampant deroggatory assertions
about other people Peter .. but i am sure you see perfection in all you
do .. the minority at times suits me just fine , but i suppose the idea
scares you , maybe even gives tyou trhe shits but i could be wrong ..
it just se3ems that way from the way you pur forward your ideas
Minority doesn't scare me at all, I am a member of various minorities.
Being a scientist for eg will do that for you. Nothing quietens a room
better than my answer to 'and what do you do Peter?' At least if I was a
murderer or a paedophile it would be something other people knew
something about. Oh and I'm also an atheist, that doesn't make me a
minority amongst biologists (Darwin kind of gets in the way you know)
but it does otherwise. Still in means I can smile apologetically and
tell Christian Aid that we don't give to religious charities.

Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country
Goodfella
2006-05-17 02:35:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
As for living an evidence
based life, as a scientist that is precisely what I try and do where
practical.
I dont know about that .. scientists have a different set of prejudices
, not nessecarily a better set imo .
Boy are you one screwed up dude. If you want to live in a world where
using the absolute best way mankind has ever developed to find out the
truth about the universe and how it works as 'prejudice' then I dearly
hope you enjoy living in the 13th century.
What i want is none of your business ..

Peter you are boring me with all your proclamations .
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
Which means when someone makes a claim that with A2 milk I
will shrug and refuse to part with my hard earned money for the
inevitably inflated product. Thus I do not as a rule shell out for
organic produce and am more than happy to drink the local tap water.
Yes but perhaps you are not healthy enough to realise whats going on ..
You are swinging from a self belief in your "wonderful scientific
precision' to low level insults without an apparent care in the world .
And you think that scientists are to be trustyes LMAO .. you are a
typical nerddy scientist by the sounds of it , thinking that you have
the answer to everything .. blah blah blah .. what exactly have you
created and provioded for humanity yourself Peter in your wonderful
Scientific Career ?
Post by Peter Ashby
You what? how much exercise have you done this week you arrogant sod? On
Sunday I ran 6.6miles, on Monday 3, Today 4.5. On Thursday I will run
laps of my hill circuit, it rises 45metres in 400m. Good for the lung
burn. That is aside from everything else I have been doing. So if you
have any more ad hominem attacks in lieu of argument, keep them to
yourself.
You have anger problems peter .. you definately have a case of the runs
that uis obvuious .. LOL .. Yeah i used to run like 20 milwes a night
so what who cares , you can make yourself as healthy by eating less and
eating better .. but that wouldnt fit with your paradigm i guess ,,
honestly you could run yourself into a fit for all i care .. run run
run .. blah blah blah .. how about your digestion .. or am i being too
precise for you ..
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
yes you might bve precise and conservative enough to be a very useful
tool to the establishment ,
Woooo! not content with ad hominems now we are into conspiracy theory
mode. For your information I have never worked for any government apart
from tutoring some Malaysian students in Physiology when I was a PhD
student (I got paid by Foreign Affairs) other than that we are talking
research in medical institutes and universities. How 'bout you?
So what exactly have you acheived in your great and wonderful career as
a scientist and your extensive experience with epidemioliogical matters
.. did you recite the book backwards while standing on your head ..
being part of the establishment does not nessecaqrily mean being opart
of the government Peter .. but i feel you are not able to see beyond
your narrow life so hey .. carry on run arun run and preach and teach
.. i have the feeling that you are precisely a cog ni the wheel and
havent donte anything or great merit in your life .. perhaps i am wrong
but so far you have stated nothing of poarticular merit . .. but i dont
care you could be a pig in a pen for all i care .. what do you want a
medal for being boring ?? Geee .. under all that self belief in
precision of yours there is a huge overinflated ego just bursting to
get out haha
Post by Peter Ashby
Now any arguments....
Stuff your argumants Peter .. you have nothing to say ion the matter
except you want to be conservative and a fence sitter .. or should i
say a fence runner .. bully for you
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
but i foor one am very semsitive to all
sorts of pollutants (sort of a canary in the coal mine effect) and i
find much tapwater vile .. yet relish fresh water and in fact source my
drinking water from as close to the reservoir as practical not because
i want to but because my ody plain doesnt want to drink tap water .. of
course you realise that organic produce in the main has a higher
nutrient value than standard force fed produce? ..
Nope, since all the independent research I have seen on the issue has
signally failed to find any significant differences. Feel free to post
any research to the contrary. So now we have a bald, unsupported
assertion in lieu of argument. Slightly better than ad hominems and
conspiracy theories, but not much.
I dont care for your research crappolla i see there is a page of stuff
onm the A2 website for eggheads like yourself so go immerse yourselff
in that if it pleases you .. personally i cannot think of anything more
boring than reading stuff to counter your base position , i am happy to
do what i see as right for my own reasons and let the science folllow
along its own path , .. heres the link to the Aussie website page for
your citation fest .. i shuuder tio think of you doing this for
enjoyment haha but each to thier own ..
http://www.a2australia.com.au/research.asp
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
no big deal ? yeah well maybe .. i hear all sorts of reasons why people
want to lower standards .. you might be right for you but it sure isnt
right for me and apparently a growing number of others , but each to
thier own . I just feel that i deserve better .
Ah now we are into StrawMan argument mode. I challenge you to
demonstrate where in this thread I have advocated 'lower standards'. Go
on I dare you.
Go on i dare you

oh get stuffed you twat .. go read your citations , im not playing
games with you you egg head . My opinion is that your standards are
lower than mine .. thats my opinion based on my experience .. you like
what you do , shits and all ,, you are welcome to it ..
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
But people who peddle such things rely on the credulous to make money as
I intimated earlier in the thread. You have amply proved my point. I am
sure they will do very well, for a while at least. I hope they spend
your dollars wisely, since you obviously won't.
So much for scientific precision .. now its turned into something far
more partial hasnt it ? The requisite proof you require isnt in yet ,
but now not only are you refraining you are condemning early adopters
who apparently from accounts i have seen and my own experience are more
aware of certain things than you .As i say Scienmtists have a different
set of prejudices than the main .. the impartial precise sceintific
image you like to see yourself as is i submit a figment of your
imagination and your psychologuical need to affirm your own value and
credibility .. but you are still prejudiced .
Aware of what precisely? go on don't be coy, you can tell me and all the
lurkers.
What lurrkers are you delusional ??
For a start you havent even samples the a2 milk so have no idea
whatsoever if your milk tolerance would be alleviated by it ,,
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
I can think of several possible mechanisms, such as that Beta casein A2
when cleaved during digestion yields a peptide which for eg reduces
insulin sensitivity and inhibits foam cells. Searching for such a
peptide would not only be a big boost for A2 milk but more importantly
would catapault the peptide into drug trials. So if they truly think
there is something there then there are potentially much bigger payoffs
than niche 'health food' marketing of milk.
??
Have you tried the milk yet or are you fence sitting ??
I have a latent lactose intolerance so I am not a great consumer of raw
milk.
oK .. your Mr precision based on fact .. So how do you know you are
Lactose intolerant? wheres your proof .. i have had milk go thru me as
well but not allways
I have always been lactose intolerant, It is not that unusual, in fact
it is the normal condition of the vast majority of humanity. I have also
tested positive on a lactose hydrogen breath test. Marks if you can tell
me what that entails.
Id guess it means your breath was like a smelly fart .. is it true that
your breatrh is like a smelly fart Peter .. proove to me that your
breath isnt like a smelly fart go on i dare you go on i double dare you
ooohhhh ahhhh oooohhh smelly breath smelly breath ,
Post by Peter Ashby
.. I used to live next to a major milk stration
Post by Goodfella
and had large experience with milk products from an observational and
consumption point of view .. i found that all milk products are not at
all alike and that the curdle rate amongst other things differed from
batch to batch .. maybe theres more to it that the "lactose intolerant"
story that scientists have readily peddled over the years .. S how dis
you ascertain your undeniable proof that you are lactose intolerant amd
not in fact intolerant of some other artifact of Milk ? .. and have you
proven that Milk intolerance" is not an attribute of your ardent belief
in processed foods .. my personal experience is that food quality and
digestion are intimately related ..
Yet again we have a Strawman argument. I further challenge you to show
where I have this 'ardent belief in processed foods'. Just because I
fail to swallow your faith based evidence in the wonderful qualities of
A2 milk and organic produce does not mean I have the aforementioned
belief. There is more to argument than people adopting polarised
positions you know.
What wonderful qualities Peter .. i drank it and had it with my Cremota
lGround linseed and Unrefined Brown sugar and it was might fine .. is
that what you mean ..?? the rest as i say and i think as you are aware
is from the official nzfsa and A2 websites verbatim ..
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
At one time ice cream would go straight through me in about 20min.
But that is beside the point which you don't seem to get, which is
without the proper evidence the claims for the biological benefits of A2
milk are faith based.
Unless you can prove that you are genetically "Lactose intollerant"
then you assertion is also faith based .. I have made no assertions as
to the scientific status of the ramifications of a2 milk .. i copied
verbatim some material widely availiable from the major sources on the
web
Which act qualifies as promotion, your further claims in this thread
reinforce that conclusion. If you don't want to have a label don't act
what sort of muddled thinking is that.. i dopnt even want to try to
work out what you mean by that .. are you lactose intolerant by
genetics or nature or by nurture ?
Post by Peter Ashby
.. my "faith" as you refer to it is merely that i like progress
Post by Goodfella
very much and value the potential of the dairy industry greatly and
that when i sampled the a2 variety milk i found it very agreeeeable ...
as i say your prejudices are of a differet set ..
I see, so in your mind because A2 milk is subjectively 'agreeable' that
means it ipso facto also prevents type 2 diabetes and coronary heart
disease. It is strange that you are so fond of 'progress' yet are averse
to science. But then few things about you are surprising to me any more.
Oh go fuck yourself Peter .. your are a poofter

im out of this one ,.. go run and shit yourself as you allways do will
ya .. i guess the cows are wanting to persecute you for being sucgha
ass haha , by bye nerd
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
Diabetes and heart disease are multifactorial
conditions based partly on genetic susceptibilities.
yada yada yada .. thats a very meely mouthed comment if you dont mind
mne saying so .. diabetes and heart disease are clearly diet related
for most/many peiople nowadays .. i thought you would be able to be
more precise than that actually .. str you sure you know as much as you
scientific prejudices tell you you do ??
1: Doney AS, Fischer B, Lee SP, Morris AD, Leese G, Palmer CN.
Association of common variation in the PPARA gene with incident
myocardial
infarction in individuals with type 2 diabetes: A Go-DARTS study.
Nucl Recept. 2005 Nov 25;3:4.
PMID: 16309557 [PubMed - in process]
2: Doney AS, Lee S, Leese GP, Morris AD, Palmer CN.
Increased cardiovascular morbidity and mortality in type 2 diabetes is
associated with the glutathione S transferase theta-null genotype: a
Go-DARTS
study.
Circulation. 2005 Jun 7;111(22):2927-34. Epub 2005 May 31.
PMID: 15927971 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3: Doney AS, Fischer B, Leese G, Morris AD, Palmer CN.
Cardiovascular risk in type 2 diabetes is associated with variation at
the
PPARG locus: a Go-DARTS study.
Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 2004 Dec;24(12):2403-7. Epub 2004 Oct 14.
PMID: 15486307 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
4: Doney AS, Fischer B, Cecil JE, Boylan K, McGuigan FE, Ralston SH,
Morris AD,
Palmer CN.
Association of the Pro12Ala and C1431T variants of PPARG and their
haplotypes
with susceptibility to Type 2 diabetes.
Diabetologia. 2004 Mar;47(3):555-8. Epub 2004 Jan 17.
PMID: 14730381 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
And that is just the most recent stuff from the lab I used to work in,
my stuff was on the role of PPARd in mice so I am not on those papers
but I used to work for Colin Palmer, have been drinking with him and
Alex Downey, Simon Lee is the techician who did most of the grunt work
and a good guy, Alex and most of the others are clinicians, but we try
not hold that against them. Go-DARTS is a large study on the pharmaco
genetic basis of things like obesity, diabetes and heart disease in
Tayside Scotland.
Some advice, don't challenge a scientist to back up something like this,
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed>
It is the primary repository of research papers in biomedical science.
It is free to all, though I of course cannot guarantee that you will be
able to understand what you find... it understands Boolean logic if you
put it in capitals, but it has a good help site.
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
So correlative
things are, by themselves, merely indicative and may have no bearing.
Blah blah .. for a scientist who follows faithfully the published
materuial thats oK but for functional progress an un-acceptance of the
importance of correlation is mere stupidity from a scientifiuc point of
view .. if observational correlation was erased from 'science' then
lettle if any progress in ubderstanding of the interactions of things
would ever be gained ..
Bollocks, as I have pointed out wrt to caffeine, the history of science
is littered with correlational studies that have fallen by the wayside
as they are proven to be spurious and merely associative. I have an open
mind wrt A2 milk, indeed I have posted a hypothetical method by which it
could act. This is hardly the act of someone as closed-minded as you
would have people believe.
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
This applies as much to genetic epidemiological studies as are conducted
in the last lab I worked in. Which is why cell and animal studies are
done to understand the biological effects of the changes found to
associate with the conditions.
'association' is another word for 'correlation' is it not ?
Nope, correlation is used to indicate that things occur together without
judging whether one is causitive on the other or not. if it is found not
to be causitive then it becomes merely associative. For eg it is
correlative but associative that everyone who has drunk water has died.
One of the ways of doing science properly is to use the language with
precision, which is difficult in English, but not impossible.
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
If you refuse to understand this, which you seem to be doing then you
are deliberately choosing ignorance and faith over knowledge. You are of
course free so to do, but don't expect to be taken seriously.
Blah blah .. please do not take me seriously .. i dont want to be taken
.. seriously i dont . You are welcome to contiue on your own path
following your own beliefs ,,, i am not trying to change you at all ..
i just copied an pasted some material that i thought was interesting ..
apparently you found it interesting as well , although you might want
to deny that . Whatever.. being taken seriously is the least of my
concerns in this instance . Drink your water and avoid your milk .. i
really dont care much about what you do to yourself .. me tho i want
more from my life and my body deserves more i feel , but that is my
opinion - you choose your own destiny .
Fine, just don't try and use spurious science to give a gloss to a
product. Just beware of recent cases in NZ and be careful not to make
such claims on the labels or in advertising since a correlative study
will not stand up in court.
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
If you wish the government to spend your tax dollars doing the same then
you are free to vote for a faith based party. Just don't be surprised if
you find yourself in a minority.
its rather sickening to see you bounce from your belief in your own
precision and all that maloney into this rampant deroggatory assertions
about other people Peter .. but i am sure you see perfection in all you
do .. the minority at times suits me just fine , but i suppose the idea
scares you , maybe even gives tyou trhe shits but i could be wrong ..
it just se3ems that way from the way you pur forward your ideas
Minority doesn't scare me at all, I am a member of various minorities.
Being a scientist for eg will do that for you. Nothing quietens a room
better than my answer to 'and what do you do Peter?' At least if I was a
murderer or a paedophile it would be something other people knew
something about. Oh and I'm also an atheist, that doesn't make me a
minority amongst biologists (Darwin kind of gets in the way you know)
but it does otherwise. Still in means I can smile apologetically and
tell Christian Aid that we don't give to religious charities.
Peter
Smile and give yourself the finger too will ya ,
for me and the cows

bye bye bird brain .
quest
2006-05-17 02:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Universities list
http://www.earthsketch.com/eduinstitutes.php
Kerry
2006-05-17 05:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goodfella
Id guess it means your breath was like a smelly fart .. is it true that
your breatrh is like a smelly fart Peter .. proove to me that your
breath isnt like a smelly fart go on i dare you go on i double dare you
ooohhhh ahhhh oooohhh smelly breath smelly breath ,
Golly.

What a well thought out argument. And so likely to make people listen
to you, also
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job,
wait until you hire an amateur.
Goodfella
2006-05-17 07:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerry
Post by Goodfella
Id guess it means your breath was like a smelly fart .. is it true that
your breatrh is like a smelly fart Peter .. proove to me that your
breath isnt like a smelly fart go on i dare you go on i double dare you
ooohhhh ahhhh oooohhh smelly breath smelly breath ,
Golly.
What a well thought out argument. And so likely to make people listen
to you, also
Why thank you very much .. in fact I have little interest in convincing
people of anything .. how about you make up your own mind .. its a
tried a proven technique ..
Peter Ashby
2006-05-17 08:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
oK .. your Mr precision based on fact .. So how do you know you are
Lactose intolerant? wheres your proof .. i have had milk go thru me as
well but not allways
I have always been lactose intolerant, It is not that unusual, in fact
it is the normal condition of the vast majority of humanity. I have also
tested positive on a lactose hydrogen breath test. Marks if you can tell
me what that entails.
Id guess it means your breath was like a smelly fart .. is it true that
your breatrh is like a smelly fart Peter .. proove to me that your
breath isnt like a smelly fart go on i dare you go on i double dare you
ooohhhh ahhhh oooohhh smelly breath smelly breath ,
No marks for you then. If you are lactose intolerant a lactose hydrogen
breath test will evince no, or very little hydrogen as the lactose will
not be metabolised.

Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country
Goodfella
2006-05-17 09:43:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
Post by Peter Ashby
Post by Goodfella
oK .. your Mr precision based on fact .. So how do you know you are
Lactose intolerant? wheres your proof .. i have had milk go thru me as
well but not allways
I have always been lactose intolerant, It is not that unusual, in fact
it is the normal condition of the vast majority of humanity. I have also
tested positive on a lactose hydrogen breath test. Marks if you can tell
me what that entails.
Id guess it means your breath was like a smelly fart .. is it true that
your breatrh is like a smelly fart Peter .. proove to me that your
breath isnt like a smelly fart go on i dare you go on i double dare you
ooohhhh ahhhh oooohhh smelly breath smelly breath ,
No marks for you then. If you are lactose intolerant a lactose hydrogen
breath test will evince no, or very little hydrogen as the lactose will
not be metabolised.
This is another quote Peter so dont get all bitchy on me for making
comments if these "experts" are wrong .. but this opinion is
diametrically opposite to what you just wrote .. combined with a belief
in your own precision this sort of thing is exactly what i mean by
scientists having thier own set of prejudices .. but i am out of this
thread .. i was just raising what i saw as a new and scientifically
progressive product on the Supermarket shelves developed by two new
zealanders , and giving a nod in the direction of the Patterson Family
as well becase i am familiar with some of that family .. read intoit
what you will

im off to graze in fresh pastures .. :)


[quote]
The Hydrogen Breath Test. This test measures the amount of hydrogen in
a person's breath. Very little hydrogen is normally detectable.
However, undigested lactose in the colon is fermented by bacteria and
produces various gases, including hydrogen. The hydrogen is absorbed
from the intestines, carried through the bloodstream to the lungs, and
exhaled. In this test, the person drinks a lactose-loaded beverage and
the breath is analyzed at regular intervals. **Raised levels of
hydrogen in the breath indicate improper digestion of lactose.***
[end.quote}
Goodfella
2006-05-17 09:48:17 UTC
Permalink
oh one last comment

As i asked you earluier "What is your causal proof of your condition
you describe as "lactiose intolerant .. is it nature or nuture

here is anothjer quote .. i wouldnt be surprised if you fiott into the
second category sionce you have such a rigorous position against
organic products .. but you are a mater of your own destiny , i just
think you should look hard at causal factors priomarily because the
underlying conditions that may be altered could improve a persons
health considerably .. the assumption of genetic causality precludes
that ..

[quote]
What causes lactose intolerance?

Some causes of lactose intolerance are well known. Primary lactase
deficiency is a condition that develops over time. After about age 2
the body begins to produce less lactase, though most people will not
notice symptoms until they are much older.

Secondary lactase deficiency occurs when injury to the small intestine
or certain digestive diseases reduce the amount of lactase a person
produces. These diseases include celiac disease, inflammatory bowel
disease, and Crohn's disease.

Researchers have identified a genetic link for lactose intolerance.
Some people are born with a likelihood of developing primary lactase
deficiency because it has been passed to them genetically (inherited
from their parents). This discovery may be useful in developing a
diagnostic test to identify people with the condition.
[/quote]


http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/lactoseintolerance/
Loading...