Discussion:
Out of Control Council Executive - appalling waste of money
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Rich80105
2020-12-27 03:01:52 UTC
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$92,000 political contribution by Wellington City Council without
approval of Councillors
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/123768322/ratepayers-pay-92000-for-membership-of-libertarian-thinktank

Clearly the current Council needs to review delegated authorities, and
make it clear that memberships need approval, and also that any such
payments should be made public.

So far no objection from the NZ Taxpayers Union though . . .
John Bowes
2020-12-27 06:48:02 UTC
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Post by Rich80105
$92,000 political contribution by Wellington City Council without
approval of Councillors
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/123768322/ratepayers-pay-92000-for-membership-of-libertarian-thinktank
Clearly the current Council needs to review delegated authorities, and
make it clear that memberships need approval, and also that any such
payments should be made public.
So far no objection from the NZ Taxpayers Union though . . .
Wait till they get back from holiday Rich! I'll bet they won't sit back and do nothing like your glorious leader...
Firu
2020-12-27 19:14:28 UTC
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Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
$92,000 political contribution by Wellington City Council without
approval of Councillors
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/123768322/ratepayers-pay-92000-for-membership-of-libertarian-thinktank
Clearly the current Council needs to review delegated authorities, and
make it clear that memberships need approval, and also that any such
payments should be made public.
So far no objection from the NZ Taxpayers Union though . . .
Wait till they get back from holiday Rich! I'll bet they won't sit back and do nothing like your glorious leader...
What's with the glorious leader bollocks? You trying to say Ardhern's a
communist? The bloody woman's hardly a socialist let alone a commie.

Check out her record, more middle of the road than a white line. Her
true USP is to care to truly have some empathy. Makes her more human
than the rest of the career crooks who say they do it all for us.

But not a commie!
John Bowes
2020-12-27 21:03:55 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
$92,000 political contribution by Wellington City Council without
approval of Councillors
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/123768322/ratepayers-pay-92000-for-membership-of-libertarian-thinktank
Clearly the current Council needs to review delegated authorities, and
make it clear that memberships need approval, and also that any such
payments should be made public.
So far no objection from the NZ Taxpayers Union though . . .
Wait till they get back from holiday Rich! I'll bet they won't sit back and do nothing like your glorious leader...
What's with the glorious leader bollocks? You trying to say Ardhern's a
communist? The bloody woman's hardly a socialist let alone a commie.
Check out her record, more middle of the road than a white line. Her
true USP is to care to truly have some empathy. Makes her more human
than the rest of the career crooks who say they do it all for us.
But not a commie!
Will you accept Marxist or socialist? Because she IS hell bent on turning us into a Totalitarian paradise!
Firu
2020-12-27 23:23:41 UTC
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Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
$92,000 political contribution by Wellington City Council without
approval of Councillors
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/123768322/ratepayers-pay-92000-for-membership-of-libertarian-thinktank
Clearly the current Council needs to review delegated authorities, and
make it clear that memberships need approval, and also that any such
payments should be made public.
So far no objection from the NZ Taxpayers Union though . . .
Wait till they get back from holiday Rich! I'll bet they won't sit back and do nothing like your glorious leader...
What's with the glorious leader bollocks? You trying to say Ardhern's a
communist? The bloody woman's hardly a socialist let alone a commie.
Check out her record, more middle of the road than a white line. Her
true USP is to care to truly have some empathy. Makes her more human
than the rest of the career crooks who say they do it all for us.
But not a commie!
Will you accept Marxist or socialist? Because she IS hell bent on turning us into a Totalitarian paradise!
No. Her record doesn't support that conclusion. Just conservative
careful white lining Jacinda.

As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
John Bowes
2020-12-28 05:09:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
$92,000 political contribution by Wellington City Council without
approval of Councillors
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/123768322/ratepayers-pay-92000-for-membership-of-libertarian-thinktank
Clearly the current Council needs to review delegated authorities, and
make it clear that memberships need approval, and also that any such
payments should be made public.
So far no objection from the NZ Taxpayers Union though . . .
Wait till they get back from holiday Rich! I'll bet they won't sit back and do nothing like your glorious leader...
What's with the glorious leader bollocks? You trying to say Ardhern's a
communist? The bloody woman's hardly a socialist let alone a commie.
Check out her record, more middle of the road than a white line. Her
true USP is to care to truly have some empathy. Makes her more human
than the rest of the career crooks who say they do it all for us.
But not a commie!
Will you accept Marxist or socialist? Because she IS hell bent on turning us into a Totalitarian paradise!
No. Her record doesn't support that conclusion. Just conservative
careful white lining Jacinda.
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
Rich80105
2020-12-28 10:00:43 UTC
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Permalink
On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 21:09:50 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
$92,000 political contribution by Wellington City Council without
approval of Councillors
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/123768322/ratepayers-pay-92000-for-membership-of-libertarian-thinktank
Clearly the current Council needs to review delegated authorities, and
make it clear that memberships need approval, and also that any such
payments should be made public.
So far no objection from the NZ Taxpayers Union though . . .
Wait till they get back from holiday Rich! I'll bet they won't sit back and do nothing like your glorious leader...
What's with the glorious leader bollocks? You trying to say Ardhern's a
communist? The bloody woman's hardly a socialist let alone a commie.
Check out her record, more middle of the road than a white line. Her
true USP is to care to truly have some empathy. Makes her more human
than the rest of the career crooks who say they do it all for us.
But not a commie!
Will you accept Marxist or socialist? Because she IS hell bent on turning us into a Totalitarian paradise!
No. Her record doesn't support that conclusion. Just conservative
careful white lining Jacinda.
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian
government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms
of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is
coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms
of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so
called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the
bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us
from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from
Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
What part of the proposed laws do you object to, John Bowes?
Firu
2020-12-28 11:05:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.

It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
John Bowes
2020-12-28 22:07:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
James Christophers
2020-12-28 22:31:18 UTC
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Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
Even the lowest of bar-room barkers knows that any total and unfettered freedoms you may vainly aspire to can never be unconditional. That being the fact of the matter, you may now wish to consider in which country your aspirations and tendencies would be better tolerated and indulged than in your own.

(The same goes for your vacuous follow-up post.)
John Bowes
2020-12-29 07:41:58 UTC
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Post by James Christophers
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
Even the lowest of bar-room barkers knows that any total and unfettered freedoms you may vainly aspire to can never be unconditional. That being the fact of the matter, you may now wish to consider in which country your aspirations and tendencies would be better tolerated and indulged than in your own.
(The same goes for your vacuous follow-up post.)
Nice line of crap your pushing here Keith! Your tendencies to support the unsupportable with vacuous crap is noted. So why did you leave Britain old chap? Was the working class making it harder for you to make a living either honestly or otherwise? Or was it that your droning drivel wasn't improving your aspirations to be recognised as an educated toff?
Rich80105
2020-12-28 23:04:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired. Perhaps you could
outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live
feeds, John . . .
John Bowes
2020-12-29 07:50:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired. Perhaps you could
outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live
feeds, John . . .
That is just more virtue signalling bullshit from Ardern Rich and the fact you again step up to defend the indefensible only proves you didn't get comprehension for Xmas ! Hate speech laws as proposed by Andrew Little couldn't have stopped the aussie fool from broadcasting and won't stop any other halfwit who decides to do the same! Hate speech won't stop hate speech the same as the changes to gun laws after the shooting haven't stopped criminals from murdering people on an even more regular basis! Funny but as has been pointed out to you countless times criminals don't obey the laws!
Rich80105
2020-12-29 09:05:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:50:11 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired. Perhaps you could
outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live
feeds, John . . .
That is just more virtue signalling bullshit from Ardern Rich and the fact you again step up to defend the indefensible only proves you didn't get comprehension for Xmas ! Hate speech laws as proposed by Andrew Little couldn't have stopped the aussie fool from broadcasting and won't stop any other halfwit who decides to do the same! Hate speech won't stop hate speech the same as the changes to gun laws after the shooting haven't stopped criminals from murdering people on an even more regular basis! Funny but as has been pointed out to you countless times criminals don't obey the laws!
Which part of the proposed laws are indefensible, John Bowes? Are you
happy with extreme violence being live-streamed to all the world?
John Bowes
2020-12-29 10:22:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:50:11 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired. Perhaps you could
outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live
feeds, John . . .
That is just more virtue signalling bullshit from Ardern Rich and the fact you again step up to defend the indefensible only proves you didn't get comprehension for Xmas ! Hate speech laws as proposed by Andrew Little couldn't have stopped the aussie fool from broadcasting and won't stop any other halfwit who decides to do the same! Hate speech won't stop hate speech the same as the changes to gun laws after the shooting haven't stopped criminals from murdering people on an even more regular basis! Funny but as has been pointed out to you countless times criminals don't obey the laws!
Which part of the proposed laws are indefensible, John Bowes? Are you
happy with extreme violence being live-streamed to all the world?
wtf does extreme violence being live-streamed got to do with hate speech? The proposed laws don't define exactly what hate speech is you imbecile! If they do come in will the Bible and Koran need to be amended so they don't breach the laws?
John Bowes
2020-12-29 10:27:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:50:11 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired. Perhaps you could
outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live
feeds, John . . .
That is just more virtue signalling bullshit from Ardern Rich and the fact you again step up to defend the indefensible only proves you didn't get comprehension for Xmas ! Hate speech laws as proposed by Andrew Little couldn't have stopped the aussie fool from broadcasting and won't stop any other halfwit who decides to do the same! Hate speech won't stop hate speech the same as the changes to gun laws after the shooting haven't stopped criminals from murdering people on an even more regular basis! Funny but as has been pointed out to you countless times criminals don't obey the laws!
Which part of the proposed laws are indefensible, John Bowes? Are you
happy with extreme violence being live-streamed to all the world?
All the law is indefensible because they're totally unnecessary!
From Professor Paul Moon Professor of history at AUT: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/123659211/silencing-disharmonious-speech-will-not-be-golden
Rich80105
2020-12-29 18:51:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 02:27:53 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:50:11 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired. Perhaps you could
outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live
feeds, John . . .
That is just more virtue signalling bullshit from Ardern Rich and the fact you again step up to defend the indefensible only proves you didn't get comprehension for Xmas ! Hate speech laws as proposed by Andrew Little couldn't have stopped the aussie fool from broadcasting and won't stop any other halfwit who decides to do the same! Hate speech won't stop hate speech the same as the changes to gun laws after the shooting haven't stopped criminals from murdering people on an even more regular basis! Funny but as has been pointed out to you countless times criminals don't obey the laws!
Which part of the proposed laws are indefensible, John Bowes? Are you
happy with extreme violence being live-streamed to all the world?
All the law is indefensible because they're totally unnecessary!
From Professor Paul Moon Professor of history at AUT: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/123659211/silencing-disharmonious-speech-will-not-be-golden
So where are these proposed laws that you object to, John Bowes? Do
you have a url?
John Bowes
2020-12-30 01:16:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 02:27:53 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:50:11 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired. Perhaps you could
outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live
feeds, John . . .
That is just more virtue signalling bullshit from Ardern Rich and the fact you again step up to defend the indefensible only proves you didn't get comprehension for Xmas ! Hate speech laws as proposed by Andrew Little couldn't have stopped the aussie fool from broadcasting and won't stop any other halfwit who decides to do the same! Hate speech won't stop hate speech the same as the changes to gun laws after the shooting haven't stopped criminals from murdering people on an even more regular basis! Funny but as has been pointed out to you countless times criminals don't obey the laws!
Which part of the proposed laws are indefensible, John Bowes? Are you
happy with extreme violence being live-streamed to all the world?
All the law is indefensible because they're totally unnecessary!
From Professor Paul Moon Professor of history at AUT: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/123659211/silencing-disharmonious-speech-will-not-be-golden
So where are these proposed laws that you object to, John Bowes? Do
you have a url?
Read your favourite Labour website Rich and you'll find it. Obviously you're to bloody senile or stupid to have followed posts on this from the past and there have been a few!
Rich80105
2020-12-30 01:29:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:16:25 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 02:27:53 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:50:11 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired. Perhaps you could
outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live
feeds, John . . .
That is just more virtue signalling bullshit from Ardern Rich and the fact you again step up to defend the indefensible only proves you didn't get comprehension for Xmas ! Hate speech laws as proposed by Andrew Little couldn't have stopped the aussie fool from broadcasting and won't stop any other halfwit who decides to do the same! Hate speech won't stop hate speech the same as the changes to gun laws after the shooting haven't stopped criminals from murdering people on an even more regular basis! Funny but as has been pointed out to you countless times criminals don't obey the laws!
Which part of the proposed laws are indefensible, John Bowes? Are you
happy with extreme violence being live-streamed to all the world?
All the law is indefensible because they're totally unnecessary!
From Professor Paul Moon Professor of history at AUT: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/123659211/silencing-disharmonious-speech-will-not-be-golden
So where are these proposed laws that you object to, John Bowes? Do
you have a url?
Read your favourite Labour website Rich and you'll find it. Obviously you're to bloody senile or stupid to have followed posts on this from the past and there have been a few!
I take it you could not find the proposals; not surprising really as
we have been told that the party and public servants are working on
them; there will possible be a few stages of exposure of some parts
and discussion beofre legislation is introduced; even then there will
be select Committee discussion.
James Christophers
2020-12-30 01:47:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:50:11 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired. Perhaps you could
outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live
feeds, John . . .
That is just more virtue signalling bullshit from Ardern Rich and the fact you again step up to defend the indefensible only proves you didn't get comprehension for Xmas ! Hate speech laws as proposed by Andrew Little couldn't have stopped the aussie fool from broadcasting and won't stop any other halfwit who decides to do the same! Hate speech won't stop hate speech the same as the changes to gun laws after the shooting haven't stopped criminals from murdering people on an even more regular basis! Funny but as has been pointed out to you countless times criminals don't obey the laws!
Which part of the proposed laws are indefensible, John Bowes?
Well, John Bowes?
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Are you
happy with extreme violence being live-streamed to all the world?
All the law is indefensible because they're totally unnecessary!
From Professor Paul Moon Professor of history at AUT: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/123659211/silencing-disharmonious-speech-will-not-be-golden
A well-considered article based on those two pivotal factors: **incitement and intent** to cause harm, unrest and disunity. Moon recognises the imponderability of trying to legislate for or against abstractions, this fatal flaw also being at the root of the remaining ongoing tragedy that was and still is Bush's sophomoric (thank you Prof Moon!) abstraction, i.e., his "War on Terror".

But his thoughts on an alternative approach to what is so far an intractable in-yer-face problem for society as a whole are not, as yet, advanced, that's assuming that he has any. In that respect, his otherwise deeply worthy article lacks the balance I think it merits.
John Bowes
2020-12-30 22:00:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:50:11 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired. Perhaps you could
outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live
feeds, John . . .
That is just more virtue signalling bullshit from Ardern Rich and the fact you again step up to defend the indefensible only proves you didn't get comprehension for Xmas ! Hate speech laws as proposed by Andrew Little couldn't have stopped the aussie fool from broadcasting and won't stop any other halfwit who decides to do the same! Hate speech won't stop hate speech the same as the changes to gun laws after the shooting haven't stopped criminals from murdering people on an even more regular basis! Funny but as has been pointed out to you countless times criminals don't obey the laws!
Which part of the proposed laws are indefensible, John Bowes?
Well, John Bowes?
All of them Keith Warren (or what ever name you use these days)!
Post by James Christophers
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Are you
happy with extreme violence being live-streamed to all the world?
All the law is indefensible because they're totally unnecessary!
From Professor Paul Moon Professor of history at AUT: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/123659211/silencing-disharmonious-speech-will-not-be-golden
A well-considered article based on those two pivotal factors: **incitement and intent** to cause harm, unrest and disunity. Moon recognises the imponderability of trying to legislate for or against abstractions, this fatal flaw also being at the root of the remaining ongoing tragedy that was and still is Bush's sophomoric (thank you Prof Moon!) abstraction, i.e., his "War on Terror".
But his thoughts on an alternative approach to what is so far an intractable in-yer-face problem for society as a whole are not, as yet, advanced, that's assuming that he has any. In that respect, his otherwise deeply worthy article lacks the balance I think it merits.
You should try reading his history of New Zealand mate. It's a bloody good read especially around the lead up to the Treaty of Waitangi. You'll learn something you don't know:)
James Christophers
2020-12-31 01:02:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by James Christophers
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:50:11 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired. Perhaps you could
outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live
feeds, John . . .
That is just more virtue signalling bullshit from Ardern Rich and the fact you again step up to defend the indefensible only proves you didn't get comprehension for Xmas ! Hate speech laws as proposed by Andrew Little couldn't have stopped the aussie fool from broadcasting and won't stop any other halfwit who decides to do the same! Hate speech won't stop hate speech the same as the changes to gun laws after the shooting haven't stopped criminals from murdering people on an even more regular basis! Funny but as has been pointed out to you countless times criminals don't obey the laws!
Which part of the proposed laws are indefensible, John Bowes?
Well, John Bowes?
All of them Keith Warren (or what ever name you use these days)!
Post by James Christophers
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Are you
happy with extreme violence being live-streamed to all the world?
All the law is indefensible because they're totally unnecessary!
From Professor Paul Moon Professor of history at AUT: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/123659211/silencing-disharmonious-speech-will-not-be-golden
A well-considered article based on those two pivotal factors: **incitement and intent** to cause harm, unrest and disunity. Moon recognises the imponderability of trying to legislate for or against abstractions, this fatal flaw also being at the root of the remaining ongoing tragedy that was and still is Bush's sophomoric (thank you Prof Moon!) abstraction, i.e., his "War on Terror".
But his thoughts on an alternative approach to what is so far an intractable in-yer-face problem for society as a whole are not, as yet, advanced, that's assuming that he has any. In that respect, his otherwise deeply worthy article lacks the balance I think it merits.
You should try reading his history of New Zealand mate. It's a bloody good read especially around the lead up to the Treaty of Waitangi. You'll learn something you don't know:)
Maybe.

We expect History to be conveyed and taught to us in an even-handed way. I think Paul Moon's article accomplishes this splendidly and with considerable erudition and objectivity, not to mention a virtually complete absence of bias or prejudice in what is an opinion piece, not an academic treatise, though it might well qualify as one! Even so, and even as such a distinguished author in his own sphere, his factual accounts of history and his interpretations of them do not go entirely uncontested by his peers. Which is exactly as it should be when so much of this country's history is "constructed" and therefore necessarily **interpreted** within the oral and the spiritual traditions of its "first nation".

That said, and after having now re-read Moon's article, (I still have no argument with the essence of it), your side-lining advisory does not dissuade me from my conditional view with regard to balance.

No. At the heart of the problem is the primal factor - that visceral animal instinct in us all - that drives those twin destroyers of men, fear and hatred (not addressed, by the way, in Prof Moon's article) and the ease with which these can nowadays be casually triggered and globally disseminated at the click of a mouse. Hence my reference to the Judgement of Solomon in a previous post.

As essentially primal creatures, we may well hate - even fear - what others think and say. We may well hate - even fear - what others do. And we are perfectly entitled to do so on both counts. What we are not, however, entitled to do is to level personally directed and unsubstantiated malicious, malevolent, mendacious abuse and invective (i.e. hate speech) against those in public service **we know full well** are in no position to respond.

As to the current proposition that hate-speech targeted at religious practices should be addressed under newly proposed laws, I think it becomes even harder to decide where to draw the line between mild comment and criticism and gratuitous, wholesale insult. This distinction is made all the harder when in this country those most at risk from such local prejudices and incitements are, so to speak, "cultural guests" of our established and traditional Judeo-Christian culture, secular claims or no. Hence the post-Christchurch shootings urgent, desperate slogan, "This is not who we are".
Gordon
2020-12-30 03:30:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:50:11 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired. Perhaps you could
outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live
feeds, John . . .
That is just more virtue signalling bullshit from Ardern Rich and the fact you again step up to defend the indefensible only proves you didn't get comprehension for Xmas ! Hate speech laws as proposed by Andrew Little couldn't have stopped the aussie fool from broadcasting and won't stop any other halfwit who decides to do the same! Hate speech won't stop hate speech the same as the changes to gun laws after the shooting haven't stopped criminals from murdering people on an even more regular basis! Funny but as has been pointed out to you countless times criminals don't obey the laws!
Which part of the proposed laws are indefensible, John Bowes? Are you
happy with extreme violence being live-streamed to all the world?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
James Christophers
2020-12-29 22:06:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired.
It's not exclusively about "hate speech" as such, and really never has been. It's about **incitement** to hatred and the public dissemination and fomenting of such hatred through its inevitable exponential dissemination. This is what gives cause for alarm and concern right across the board.

This worldwide concern embraces the entire gamut of "disharmony", from the Christchurch gunman to the cyber-targeted schoolkid bordering on suicide. In this respect there is little difference between Trump with his calculatedly targeted fomentings and any iPhone-toting malcontent from some badged and burnished secondary school in Ponsonby. With all its gratuitous abuse and degeneracy ("I do it because I can"), today's " universally accepted social media militates against any form of moderation that must now include banning and/or criminalising in some form or other. Hence both our local and worldwide polarisation of the issue.

Again, any new or revised laws, here and globally, must cope with the imponderable conundrum inherent in the requirement to define and legislate what is, and is not, "hate" - itself an abstraction based largely on the visceral "I know it when I see it" - yet do so without materially infringing on the hard-won civil liberties we hold so dear.

Wherever it may be enacted, it will take the Judgement of Solomon to make such new or revised legislation not only just and equitable, but to the satisfaction of all.

This is also largely why there can be no satisfactory conclusion to this thread, however well-intended.
Post by Rich80105
Perhaps you could outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live feeds, John . . .
John Bowes
2020-12-30 01:19:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired.
It's not exclusively about "hate speech" as such, and really never has been. It's about **incitement** to hatred and the public dissemination and fomenting of such hatred through its inevitable exponential dissemination. This is what gives cause for alarm and concern right across the board.
This worldwide concern embraces the entire gamut of "disharmony", from the Christchurch gunman to the cyber-targeted schoolkid bordering on suicide. In this respect there is little difference between Trump with his calculatedly targeted fomentings and any iPhone-toting malcontent from some badged and burnished secondary school in Ponsonby. With all its gratuitous abuse and degeneracy ("I do it because I can"), today's " universally accepted social media militates against any form of moderation that must now include banning and/or criminalising in some form or other. Hence both our local and worldwide polarisation of the issue.
Again, any new or revised laws, here and globally, must cope with the imponderable conundrum inherent in the requirement to define and legislate what is, and is not, "hate" - itself an abstraction based largely on the visceral "I know it when I see it" - yet do so without materially infringing on the hard-won civil liberties we hold so dear.
Wherever it may be enacted, it will take the Judgement of Solomon to make such new or revised legislation not only just and equitable, but to the satisfaction of all.
This is also largely why there can be no satisfactory conclusion to this thread, however well-intended.
Post by Rich80105
Perhaps you could outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live feeds, John . . .
Probably not Keith. however it'll achieve nothing but the stifling of views by idiots like Rich and his glorious leader! Typical of those who only want freedom for those who follow their virtue signalling stupidity!
Rich80105
2020-12-30 02:01:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:19:07 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired.
It's not exclusively about "hate speech" as such, and really never has been. It's about **incitement** to hatred and the public dissemination and fomenting of such hatred through its inevitable exponential dissemination. This is what gives cause for alarm and concern right across the board.
This worldwide concern embraces the entire gamut of "disharmony", from the Christchurch gunman to the cyber-targeted schoolkid bordering on suicide. In this respect there is little difference between Trump with his calculatedly targeted fomentings and any iPhone-toting malcontent from some badged and burnished secondary school in Ponsonby. With all its gratuitous abuse and degeneracy ("I do it because I can"), today's " universally accepted social media militates against any form of moderation that must now include banning and/or criminalising in some form or other. Hence both our local and worldwide polarisation of the issue.
Again, any new or revised laws, here and globally, must cope with the imponderable conundrum inherent in the requirement to define and legislate what is, and is not, "hate" - itself an abstraction based largely on the visceral "I know it when I see it" - yet do so without materially infringing on the hard-won civil liberties we hold so dear.
Wherever it may be enacted, it will take the Judgement of Solomon to make such new or revised legislation not only just and equitable, but to the satisfaction of all.
This is also largely why there can be no satisfactory conclusion to this thread, however well-intended.
Post by Rich80105
Perhaps you could outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live feeds, John . . .
Probably not Keith. however it'll achieve nothing but the stifling of views by idiots like Rich and his glorious leader! Typical of those who only want freedom for those who follow their virtue signalling stupidity!
What views are you wanting to stifle, John Bowes? I want freedom for
all to live their lives as they wish subject only to not harming
others - the difficulty comes when people become ''brainwashed" and
seek to stifle views of others - as you seem to want.
Gordon
2020-12-30 03:27:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:19:07 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired.
It's not exclusively about "hate speech" as such, and really never has been. It's about **incitement** to hatred and the public dissemination and fomenting of such hatred through its inevitable exponential dissemination. This is what gives cause for alarm and concern right across the board.
This worldwide concern embraces the entire gamut of "disharmony", from the Christchurch gunman to the cyber-targeted schoolkid bordering on suicide. In this respect there is little difference between Trump with his calculatedly targeted fomentings and any iPhone-toting malcontent from some badged and burnished secondary school in Ponsonby. With all its gratuitous abuse and degeneracy ("I do it because I can"), today's " universally accepted social media militates against any form of moderation that must now include banning and/or criminalising in some form or other. Hence both our local and worldwide polarisation of the issue.
Again, any new or revised laws, here and globally, must cope with the imponderable conundrum inherent in the requirement to define and legislate what is, and is not, "hate" - itself an abstraction based largely on the visceral "I know it when I see it" - yet do so without materially infringing on the hard-won civil liberties we hold so dear.
Wherever it may be enacted, it will take the Judgement of Solomon to make such new or revised legislation not only just and equitable, but to the satisfaction of all.
This is also largely why there can be no satisfactory conclusion to this thread, however well-intended.
Post by Rich80105
Perhaps you could outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live feeds, John . . .
Probably not Keith. however it'll achieve nothing but the stifling of views by idiots like Rich and his glorious leader! Typical of those who only want freedom for those who follow their virtue signalling stupidity!
What views are you wanting to stifle, John Bowes? I want freedom for
all to live their lives as they wish subject only to not harming
others - the difficulty comes when people become ''brainwashed" and
seek to stifle views of others - as you seem to want.
And yet we have "The science is done" in relation to climate change.
Tony
2020-12-30 03:33:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:19:07 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a
totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms
of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of
arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian
government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they
go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on
foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from
Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything
that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of
legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even
more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired.
It's not exclusively about "hate speech" as such, and really never has
been. It's about **incitement** to hatred and the public dissemination and
fomenting of such hatred through its inevitable exponential dissemination. This
is what gives cause for alarm and concern right across the board.
This worldwide concern embraces the entire gamut of "disharmony", from the
Christchurch gunman to the cyber-targeted schoolkid bordering on suicide. In
this respect there is little difference between Trump with his calculatedly
targeted fomentings and any iPhone-toting malcontent from some badged and
burnished secondary school in Ponsonby. With all its gratuitous abuse and
degeneracy ("I do it because I can"), today's " universally accepted social
media militates against any form of moderation that must now include banning
and/or criminalising in some form or other. Hence both our local and worldwide
polarisation of the issue.
Again, any new or revised laws, here and globally, must cope with the
imponderable conundrum inherent in the requirement to define and legislate what
is, and is not, "hate" - itself an abstraction based largely on the visceral "I
know it when I see it" - yet do so without materially infringing on the
hard-won civil liberties we hold so dear.
Wherever it may be enacted, it will take the Judgement of Solomon to make
such new or revised legislation not only just and equitable, but to the
satisfaction of all.
This is also largely why there can be no satisfactory conclusion to this
thread, however well-intended.
Post by Rich80105
Perhaps you could outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have
prevented those live feeds, John . . .
Probably not Keith. however it'll achieve nothing but the stifling of views
by idiots like Rich and his glorious leader! Typical of those who only want
freedom for those who follow their virtue signalling stupidity!
What views are you wanting to stifle, John Bowes? I want freedom for
all to live their lives as they wish subject only to not harming
others - the difficulty comes when people become ''brainwashed" and
seek to stifle views of others - as you seem to want.
And yet we have "The science is done" in relation to climate change.
And it has not yet been "done".
Understanding causes is critical if we are able to apply any fixes, but major
causes are yet to be clearly identified. Too much political interference in
science.
John Bowes
2020-12-30 21:56:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:19:07 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist
parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the
left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a
totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms
of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of
arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian
government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they
go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on
foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from
Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything
that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of
legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even
more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired.
It's not exclusively about "hate speech" as such, and really never has
been. It's about **incitement** to hatred and the public dissemination and
fomenting of such hatred through its inevitable exponential dissemination. This
is what gives cause for alarm and concern right across the board.
This worldwide concern embraces the entire gamut of "disharmony", from the
Christchurch gunman to the cyber-targeted schoolkid bordering on suicide. In
this respect there is little difference between Trump with his calculatedly
targeted fomentings and any iPhone-toting malcontent from some badged and
burnished secondary school in Ponsonby. With all its gratuitous abuse and
degeneracy ("I do it because I can"), today's " universally accepted social
media militates against any form of moderation that must now include banning
and/or criminalising in some form or other. Hence both our local and worldwide
polarisation of the issue.
Again, any new or revised laws, here and globally, must cope with the
imponderable conundrum inherent in the requirement to define and legislate what
is, and is not, "hate" - itself an abstraction based largely on the visceral "I
know it when I see it" - yet do so without materially infringing on the
hard-won civil liberties we hold so dear.
Wherever it may be enacted, it will take the Judgement of Solomon to make
such new or revised legislation not only just and equitable, but to the
satisfaction of all.
This is also largely why there can be no satisfactory conclusion to this
thread, however well-intended.
Post by Rich80105
Perhaps you could outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have
prevented those live feeds, John . . .
Probably not Keith. however it'll achieve nothing but the stifling of views
by idiots like Rich and his glorious leader! Typical of those who only want
freedom for those who follow their virtue signalling stupidity!
What views are you wanting to stifle, John Bowes? I want freedom for
all to live their lives as they wish subject only to not harming
others - the difficulty comes when people become ''brainwashed" and
seek to stifle views of others - as you seem to want.
And yet we have "The science is done" in relation to climate change.
And it has not yet been "done".
Understanding causes is critical if we are able to apply any fixes, but major
causes are yet to be clearly identified. Too much political interference in
science.
The problem with fools like Rich and Keith is they believe science can be settled :)
Watched an interesting doco on BBC Knowledge by a climate scientist. He was more worried about sulphur in the atmosphere rather than a trace gas like co2.
Rich80105
2020-12-30 09:26:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:19:07 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired.
It's not exclusively about "hate speech" as such, and really never has been. It's about **incitement** to hatred and the public dissemination and fomenting of such hatred through its inevitable exponential dissemination. This is what gives cause for alarm and concern right across the board.
This worldwide concern embraces the entire gamut of "disharmony", from the Christchurch gunman to the cyber-targeted schoolkid bordering on suicide. In this respect there is little difference between Trump with his calculatedly targeted fomentings and any iPhone-toting malcontent from some badged and burnished secondary school in Ponsonby. With all its gratuitous abuse and degeneracy ("I do it because I can"), today's " universally accepted social media militates against any form of moderation that must now include banning and/or criminalising in some form or other. Hence both our local and worldwide polarisation of the issue.
Again, any new or revised laws, here and globally, must cope with the imponderable conundrum inherent in the requirement to define and legislate what is, and is not, "hate" - itself an abstraction based largely on the visceral "I know it when I see it" - yet do so without materially infringing on the hard-won civil liberties we hold so dear.
Wherever it may be enacted, it will take the Judgement of Solomon to make such new or revised legislation not only just and equitable, but to the satisfaction of all.
This is also largely why there can be no satisfactory conclusion to this thread, however well-intended.
Post by Rich80105
Perhaps you could outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live feeds, John . . .
Probably not Keith. however it'll achieve nothing but the stifling of views by idiots like Rich and his glorious leader! Typical of those who only want freedom for those who follow their virtue signalling stupidity!
What views are you wanting to stifle, John Bowes? I want freedom for
all to live their lives as they wish subject only to not harming
others - the difficulty comes when people become ''brainwashed" and
seek to stifle views of others - as you seem to want.
And yet we have "The science is done" in relation to climate change.
I don't think so. We do know a lot more than we did a decade ago, but
there is still more to learn. In particular some aspects of climate
are becoming less predictable. This thread has drifted through a
number of subjects - not of them as settled as the original issue of a
Council CE wasting money on membership of a political lobby group.
John Bowes
2020-12-30 21:57:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:19:07 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired.
It's not exclusively about "hate speech" as such, and really never has been. It's about **incitement** to hatred and the public dissemination and fomenting of such hatred through its inevitable exponential dissemination. This is what gives cause for alarm and concern right across the board.
This worldwide concern embraces the entire gamut of "disharmony", from the Christchurch gunman to the cyber-targeted schoolkid bordering on suicide. In this respect there is little difference between Trump with his calculatedly targeted fomentings and any iPhone-toting malcontent from some badged and burnished secondary school in Ponsonby. With all its gratuitous abuse and degeneracy ("I do it because I can"), today's " universally accepted social media militates against any form of moderation that must now include banning and/or criminalising in some form or other. Hence both our local and worldwide polarisation of the issue.
Again, any new or revised laws, here and globally, must cope with the imponderable conundrum inherent in the requirement to define and legislate what is, and is not, "hate" - itself an abstraction based largely on the visceral "I know it when I see it" - yet do so without materially infringing on the hard-won civil liberties we hold so dear.
Wherever it may be enacted, it will take the Judgement of Solomon to make such new or revised legislation not only just and equitable, but to the satisfaction of all.
This is also largely why there can be no satisfactory conclusion to this thread, however well-intended.
Post by Rich80105
Perhaps you could outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live feeds, John . . .
Probably not Keith. however it'll achieve nothing but the stifling of views by idiots like Rich and his glorious leader! Typical of those who only want freedom for those who follow their virtue signalling stupidity!
What views are you wanting to stifle, John Bowes? I want freedom for
all to live their lives as they wish subject only to not harming
others - the difficulty comes when people become ''brainwashed" and
seek to stifle views of others - as you seem to want.
And yet we have "The science is done" in relation to climate change.
I don't think so. We do know a lot more than we did a decade ago, but
there is still more to learn. In particular some aspects of climate
are becoming less predictable. This thread has drifted through a
number of subjects - not of them as settled as the original issue of a
Council CE wasting money on membership of a political lobby group.
Your just pissed at that stupidity becase it wasn't a Labour/Green lobby group Rich :)
John Bowes
2020-12-30 21:53:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:19:07 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:07:29 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by Firu
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
One of mankind's least lovable traits is a propensity for tribalism and
hatred. Hate speech legislation sets limits and rules for those who need
guidance, not everyone is as open minded and enlightened as you and I.
It's arguable that Hitler is one of the reasons we have hate speech
legislation today.
we have perfectly good laws that cover so called hate speech. Anything that Ardern and company force on us will just be another useless piece of legislation wasting more of governments time in an effort to control us even more!
A significant concern from many New Zealanders was the ability of the
Christchurch shooter to live stream his crimes. Jacinda Ardern has
raised ths internationally as an issue, and we are starting to see it
being raised with various international companies that have the
ability, at some cost to themselves, to resolve the issue, with the
threat that they could be charged for "hate-crimes" if they do not
prevent such objectionable material being aired.
It's not exclusively about "hate speech" as such, and really never has been. It's about **incitement** to hatred and the public dissemination and fomenting of such hatred through its inevitable exponential dissemination. This is what gives cause for alarm and concern right across the board.
This worldwide concern embraces the entire gamut of "disharmony", from the Christchurch gunman to the cyber-targeted schoolkid bordering on suicide. In this respect there is little difference between Trump with his calculatedly targeted fomentings and any iPhone-toting malcontent from some badged and burnished secondary school in Ponsonby. With all its gratuitous abuse and degeneracy ("I do it because I can"), today's " universally accepted social media militates against any form of moderation that must now include banning and/or criminalising in some form or other. Hence both our local and worldwide polarisation of the issue.
Again, any new or revised laws, here and globally, must cope with the imponderable conundrum inherent in the requirement to define and legislate what is, and is not, "hate" - itself an abstraction based largely on the visceral "I know it when I see it" - yet do so without materially infringing on the hard-won civil liberties we hold so dear.
Wherever it may be enacted, it will take the Judgement of Solomon to make such new or revised legislation not only just and equitable, but to the satisfaction of all.
This is also largely why there can be no satisfactory conclusion to this thread, however well-intended.
Post by Rich80105
Perhaps you could outline the "perfectly good laws" that could have prevented those live feeds, John . . .
Probably not Keith. however it'll achieve nothing but the stifling of views by idiots like Rich and his glorious leader! Typical of those who only want freedom for those who follow their virtue signalling stupidity!
What views are you wanting to stifle, John Bowes? I want freedom for
all to live their lives as they wish subject only to not harming
others - the difficulty comes when people become ''brainwashed" and
seek to stifle views of others - as you seem to want.
Pure bullshit from the ng's bullshit artist! your biggest problem Rich is that you've been thoroughly "brainwashed"into the Marxist way of thought!
The biggest difficulty is comprehensionless snowflakes like you Rich who believe they follow the one true light and any who disagree should be abused and have their comments twisted into a perversion of what they said!
I want freedom of speech without let or hindrance! But with well defined laws so if they try to foment unrest or encourage people to acts of violence! The law that Little in particular has been pushing will remove that right (Keith it IS a right no matter what you may think in what passes for your mind) . Hell it was even suggested the Helen Clark foundation decide what was "hate speech"! Talk about political gerrymandering....
George Black
2020-12-28 19:12:02 UTC
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Post by John Bowes
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
And with the latest flu scare they can pass any law, restrict whatever
'because'
Notice how the rifle amnesty did little for the numbers of shootings.
Rich80105
2020-12-28 22:57:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by George Black
Post by John Bowes
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
And with the latest flu scare they can pass any law, restrict whatever
'because'
Notice how the rifle amnesty did little for the numbers of shootings.
Did you expect it to? The increase in gangs from all those "New
Zealand citizens" expelled from Australia may have something to do
with an increase in frearms offences. Harsher penalites have meant
that being caught with a non-registered firearm is more serious than
previously - would you prefer that we had not removed so many firearms
from the community?
John Bowes
2020-12-29 07:45:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
And with the latest flu scare they can pass any law, restrict whatever
'because'
Notice how the rifle amnesty did little for the numbers of shootings.
Did you expect it to? The increase in gangs from all those "New
Zealand citizens" expelled from Australia may have something to do
with an increase in frearms offences. Harsher penalites have meant
that being caught with a non-registered firearm is more serious than
previously - would you prefer that we had not removed so many firearms
from the community?
Crap! The gangs have always been more than happy to use firearms since before the Aussies started disposing of undesirables Rich! The laws the government (and all party's with the exception of ACT) rushed in only ever penalised honest gun owners! No effort was made to disarm the gangs and they don't give a stuff about our laws wether they're local or been sent back from australia!
James Christophers
2020-12-28 21:05:40 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
$92,000 political contribution by Wellington City Council without
approval of Councillors
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/123768322/ratepayers-pay-92000-for-membership-of-libertarian-thinktank
Clearly the current Council needs to review delegated authorities, and
make it clear that memberships need approval, and also that any such
payments should be made public.
So far no objection from the NZ Taxpayers Union though . . .
Wait till they get back from holiday Rich! I'll bet they won't sit back and do nothing like your glorious leader...
What's with the glorious leader bollocks? You trying to say Ardhern's a
communist? The bloody woman's hardly a socialist let alone a commie.
Check out her record, more middle of the road than a white line. Her
true USP is to care to truly have some empathy. Makes her more human
than the rest of the career crooks who say they do it all for us.
But not a commie!
Will you accept Marxist or socialist? Because she IS hell bent on turning us into a Totalitarian paradise!
No. Her record doesn't support that conclusion. Just conservative
careful white lining Jacinda.
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
After that little diatribe, the reader could be forgiven for thinking that hate speech is OK with you. Is this in fact the case, particularly nowadays when hate and discrimination can be fomented worldwide at the click of your mouse?

As for any totalitarian tendencies you may fancifully attribute to Ardern and her government, be mindful that the unprecedented majority she and her party enjoyed under MMP at the recent general election was gained entirely through the free will of those who elected her and not through any overt coercion or covert political vote-rigging on her or her party's part.

As for Ardern's governing "tendencies" or political "biases" as witnessed to date: these align more closely with the concept of "compassionate conservatism" than any other - **your** winter fuel allowance an' all.

You don't know how lucky you are.
John Bowes
2020-12-28 22:10:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
$92,000 political contribution by Wellington City Council without
approval of Councillors
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/123768322/ratepayers-pay-92000-for-membership-of-libertarian-thinktank
Clearly the current Council needs to review delegated authorities, and
make it clear that memberships need approval, and also that any such
payments should be made public.
So far no objection from the NZ Taxpayers Union though . . .
Wait till they get back from holiday Rich! I'll bet they won't sit back and do nothing like your glorious leader...
What's with the glorious leader bollocks? You trying to say Ardhern's a
communist? The bloody woman's hardly a socialist let alone a commie.
Check out her record, more middle of the road than a white line. Her
true USP is to care to truly have some empathy. Makes her more human
than the rest of the career crooks who say they do it all for us.
But not a commie!
Will you accept Marxist or socialist? Because she IS hell bent on turning us into a Totalitarian paradise!
No. Her record doesn't support that conclusion. Just conservative
careful white lining Jacinda.
As far as totalitarian paradise...you don't need a Marxist or a
socialist or a commie to do that. Check out the nationalist parties in
Poland, UK, Turkey or the USA. None of those are vaguely to the left.
And any comparison to us shows NZ is a paradise of freedoms.
I'm perfectly aware you don't have to lean left to be a totalitarian government! Hell Adolf Hitler and Stalin practiced the same forms of repression and looking at the history of the 30's and what is coming out of arderns government they are showing all the symptoms of being a totalitarian government. make the most of the so called freedoms in this country before they go ahead with the bullshit of "hate speech" laws that they're hell bent on foisting on us from before the idiot Iman in Christchurch got agreement from Ardern that they'd be enacted this term!
After that little diatribe, the reader could be forgiven for thinking that hate speech is OK with you. Is this in fact the case, particularly nowadays when hate and discrimination can be fomented worldwide at the click of your mouse?
As for any totalitarian tendencies you may fancifully attribute to Ardern and her government, be mindful that the unprecedented majority she and her party enjoyed under MMP at the recent general election was gained entirely through the free will of those who elected her and not through any overt coercion or covert political vote-rigging on her or her party's part.
As for Ardern's governing "tendencies" or political "biases" as witnessed to date: these align more closely with the concept of "compassionate conservatism" than any other - **your** winter fuel allowance an' all.
You don't know how lucky you are.
Oh but I do know how lucky I am Keith and I don't need a long winded and pointless diatribe from you to confuse the issue! Ardern only won because she had six months mote campaigning than the other party's as you well know but carefully ignore because it doesn't fit your agenda. So typical of those who kill comment on the climate change bullshit!
Mutlley
2021-01-05 02:49:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
$92,000 political contribution by Wellington City Council without
approval of Councillors
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/123768322/ratepayers-pay-92000-for-membership-of-libertarian-thinktank
Clearly the current Council needs to review delegated authorities, and
make it clear that memberships need approval, and also that any such
payments should be made public.
So far no objection from the NZ Taxpayers Union though . . .
Wait till they get back from holiday Rich! I'll bet they won't sit back and do nothing like your glorious leader...
What's with the glorious leader bollocks? You trying to say Ardhern's a
communist? The bloody woman's hardly a socialist let alone a commie.
Check out her record, more middle of the road than a white line. Her
true USP is to care to truly have some empathy. Makes her more human
than the rest of the career crooks who say they do it all for us.
But not a commie!
Really

John Bowes
2021-01-05 03:11:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mutlley
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
$92,000 political contribution by Wellington City Council without
approval of Councillors
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/123768322/ratepayers-pay-92000-for-membership-of-libertarian-thinktank
Clearly the current Council needs to review delegated authorities, and
make it clear that memberships need approval, and also that any such
payments should be made public.
So far no objection from the NZ Taxpayers Union though . . .
Wait till they get back from holiday Rich! I'll bet they won't sit back and do nothing like your glorious leader...
What's with the glorious leader bollocks? You trying to say Ardhern's a
communist? The bloody woman's hardly a socialist let alone a commie.
Check out her record, more middle of the road than a white line. Her
true USP is to care to truly have some empathy. Makes her more human
than the rest of the career crooks who say they do it all for us.
But not a commie!
Really http://youtu.be/g9rsxFaq6Ig
I assume you're trying to make a point here Firu. but it took more than a stupid youTube video to convince me of her Marxist/Communist/Totalitarian leanings. Hell the only reason she's PM is because of the unions a shyster politician and a nine month election campaign!
Firu
2021-01-05 05:25:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Mutlley
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
$92,000 political contribution by Wellington City Council without
approval of Councillors
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/123768322/ratepayers-pay-92000-for-membership-of-libertarian-thinktank
Clearly the current Council needs to review delegated authorities, and
make it clear that memberships need approval, and also that any such
payments should be made public.
So far no objection from the NZ Taxpayers Union though . . .
Wait till they get back from holiday Rich! I'll bet they won't sit back and do nothing like your glorious leader...
What's with the glorious leader bollocks? You trying to say Ardhern's a
communist? The bloody woman's hardly a socialist let alone a commie.
Check out her record, more middle of the road than a white line. Her
true USP is to care to truly have some empathy. Makes her more human
than the rest of the career crooks who say they do it all for us.
But not a commie!
Really http://youtu.be/g9rsxFaq6Ig
I assume you're trying to make a point here Firu. but it took more than a stupid youTube video to convince me of her Marxist/Communist/Totalitarian leanings. Hell the only reason she's PM is because of the unions a shyster politician and a nine month election campaign!
Am I? YouTube? What? Oh, sorry, not my video.

Back to my kip!
John Bowes
2021-01-05 08:06:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Mutlley
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
$92,000 political contribution by Wellington City Council without
approval of Councillors
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/123768322/ratepayers-pay-92000-for-membership-of-libertarian-thinktank
Clearly the current Council needs to review delegated authorities, and
make it clear that memberships need approval, and also that any such
payments should be made public.
So far no objection from the NZ Taxpayers Union though . . .
Wait till they get back from holiday Rich! I'll bet they won't sit back and do nothing like your glorious leader...
What's with the glorious leader bollocks? You trying to say Ardhern's a
communist? The bloody woman's hardly a socialist let alone a commie.
Check out her record, more middle of the road than a white line. Her
true USP is to care to truly have some empathy. Makes her more human
than the rest of the career crooks who say they do it all for us.
But not a commie!
Really http://youtu.be/g9rsxFaq6Ig
I assume you're trying to make a point here Firu. but it took more than a stupid youTube video to convince me of her Marxist/Communist/Totalitarian leanings. Hell the only reason she's PM is because of the unions a shyster politician and a nine month election campaign!
Am I? YouTube? What? Oh, sorry, not my video.
Back to my kip!
Apologies.

James Christophers
2021-01-05 03:21:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mutlley
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
$92,000 political contribution by Wellington City Council without
approval of Councillors
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/123768322/ratepayers-pay-92000-for-membership-of-libertarian-thinktank
Clearly the current Council needs to review delegated authorities, and
make it clear that memberships need approval, and also that any such
payments should be made public.
So far no objection from the NZ Taxpayers Union though . . .
Wait till they get back from holiday Rich! I'll bet they won't sit back and do nothing like your glorious leader...
What's with the glorious leader bollocks? You trying to say Ardhern's a
communist? The bloody woman's hardly a socialist let alone a commie.
Check out her record, more middle of the road than a white line. Her
true USP is to care to truly have some empathy. Makes her more human
than the rest of the career crooks who say they do it all for us.
But not a commie!
Really http://youtu.be/g9rsxFaq6Ig
"Comrades" - ah, yes!

But there again, what more comradely than a bunch of muddied and overpaid ABs kicking a ball about? Even better - as if that were even possible - what more comradely, pray, than those numberless legions of stupefied, slumpgut Kiwis bawling to the heavens, "**We** won!"
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