Discussion:
Opposition speak with two voices . . .
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Rich80105
2020-05-01 00:34:26 UTC
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The real leader of the National Party speaks:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/tarana/latest/121306264/high-taxes-in-the-short-term-not-the-way-forward-for-economic-recovery-says-sir-john-key

He has the sense not to talk of tax cuts, which Bridges apparently
still supports . . .
Tony
2020-05-01 01:26:04 UTC
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Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/tarana/latest/121306264/high-taxes-in-the-short-term-not-the-way-forward-for-economic-recovery-says-sir-john-key
He has the sense not to talk of tax cuts, which Bridges apparently
still supports . . .
And the real leader of the Labour party Helen Clark no doubt reads his comments
with enthusiastic interest.
James Christophers
2020-05-01 03:40:34 UTC
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Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/tarana/latest/121306264/high-taxes-in-the-short-term-not-the-way-forward-for-economic-recovery-says-sir-john-key
He has the sense not to talk of tax cuts, which Bridges apparently
still supports . . .
In Key's own words:

"They're spending a tremendous amount of money and it's appropriate that they're doing so, but the question is will they try and recoup that through higher taxes?

No problem, then, with spending up large just now, says Key. Again, presumably no problem raising taxes **provided** there has been a record of significant equivalent increases in the majority of New Zealand's real incomes due to increases in real per-capita productivity since 2007/2009.

So what **real** increases in these two critical economic factors have occurred, and how significant have they been?

Pivotal to all this is:

What specific measures did Key and his team invoke during their nine years in office to put the nation on the road to achieving this, and which Ardern's government have been able further to build on since late 2017?
Rich80105
2020-05-01 05:49:00 UTC
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 20:40:34 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/tarana/latest/121306264/high-taxes-in-the-short-term-not-the-way-forward-for-economic-recovery-says-sir-john-key
He has the sense not to talk of tax cuts, which Bridges apparently
still supports . . .
"They're spending a tremendous amount of money and it's appropriate that they're doing so, but the question is will they try and recoup that through higher taxes?
No problem, then, with spending up large just now, says Key. Again, presumably no problem raising taxes **provided** there has been a record of significant equivalent increases in the majority of New Zealand's real incomes due to increases in real per-capita productivity since 2007/2009.
So what **real** increases in these two critical economic factors have occurred, and how significant have they been?
What specific measures did Key and his team invoke during their nine years in office to put the nation on the road to achieving this, and which Ardern's government have been able further to build on since late 2017?
Productivity is one measure that is relevant, as is the impact of
differential changes to tax rates, and the extent to which borrowing
and asset sales were used to pay for tax cuts. There is also the
fairly deliberate ramping up of higher salaries while depressing the
minimum salaries and low level wages. and the extent to which many
work one or more part time jobs. In addition the introduction of
"Working for Families", introduced as a temporary measure by the Clark
Government (?) has become effectively a government subsidy for low
wages - institutionalised crony capitalism, while the increases to GST
early in Keys Government made our system more regressive. In all of
those areas, National has made the most changes, and most of them have
resulted in a much bigger share of national income going to the
wealthy - or as National put it, "hard working taxpayers", and
progressively less for those paid less. Then there are the shadowy
efforts of that early vision of Key's - to make New Zealand a
financial hub for shady tax avoidance trusts; to pander to cross
jurisdictions scams that reduce tax payable in multiple countries, and
the move to internet purchasing as someof those companies get an unfir
competitive advantage through not having to pay tax . . . Even now
many trusts are effectively at least partially tax avoidance vehicles.

An example iof the result is
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/01-05-2020/the-side-eye-essential/

Another example is what we saw when many companies took the government
money to support salaries and used that as the only pay they gave
workers (except for some supermarkets during level 4) - the effect was
a massive boost to those needing help from food banks - we have
reduced our lowest workers to subsistence wage, and still pay
beneficiaries less . . .

So there are a lot of areas where change is deisrable, but the
coalition, helped probably by the conservative instincts of NZ First,
have made little change in their first term. They did thankfully
reject Nationals proposed last ditch election bribe tax cuts, and
built up a reasonable level of reserves again after the depredations
of the Key/English governments.

There is no reason that I can see why we need to have 'lowest in the
world' tax rates for millionaires and very high earners, and work
needs to be done on companies shifting profits off-shore. But I think
we need to wean ourselves off Working for Families over time, bringing
our low paid wage rates up to the level where companies do not need
government assistance to enable "hard working taxpayers" to exist
without food banks and other assistance such as housing from
government; we should do something about the very high marginal rates
that result from abatement of benefits for many low to middle income
earners - we shoudl ask whether there is any reason anyone should pay
an effective rate higher than the top income tax rate . . .

So there are a lot of options. I favour a quick introduction of a tax
rate of 55% for incomes over $1 million - it will hit very few until
we stop a lot of the rorts that artificially reduce taxable income . .
BR
2020-05-01 16:31:42 UTC
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Post by Rich80105
So there are a lot of options. I favour a quick introduction of a tax
rate of 55% for incomes over $1 million
The result of that will be that the captains of industry who earn that
sort of money will pack up and take their business elsewhere, along
with all the tax paying jobs and productivity that goes with them.

How then will the government feed it's insatiable addiction to other
people's money?

Bill.
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Rich80105
2020-05-01 21:08:39 UTC
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Post by BR
Post by Rich80105
So there are a lot of options. I favour a quick introduction of a tax
rate of 55% for incomes over $1 million
The result of that will be that the captains of industry who earn that
sort of money will pack up and take their business elsewhere, along
with all the tax paying jobs and productivity that goes with them.
How then will the government feed it's insatiable addiction to other
people's money?
Bill.
You are absolutely Right, BR, how could I have got it so wrong. Your
evidence is so overwhelmingly Right, how could I have misseed it.
After all, our low tax rates are why so many wealthy people from
overseas want to come here, and in addition we all lnow that those top
jobs need people from overseas as there is nobody in little old New
Zealand capable of doinng them as well as someone with that overseas
experience.

After all, look at New York, where with state taxes the top tax rate
os over 53% - they are finding it hard to fill top jobs . . .

Perhaps we would be better off adopting the Australian tax rates -
they have not tax on the first 18200, 32% on incomes 37001 - 90,000,
37% on 90,000 to 180,000, then 45% on oncomes over 180,000

Of course we could also reduce GST to match Australia as well to 10%.

Better?

I'm pleased however that you support all the other suggestions I put
forward for discussion . . .

With
James Christophers
2020-05-01 22:25:49 UTC
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Post by BR
Post by Rich80105
So there are a lot of options. I favour a quick introduction of a tax
rate of 55% for incomes over $1 million
The result of that will be that the captains of industry who earn that
sort of money will pack up and take their business elsewhere, along
with all the tax paying jobs and productivity that goes with them.
How then will the government feed it's insatiable addiction to other
people's money?
Easy. Behave like derivatives trader John Key, sometime dealer and gambler with ultimately failed and disgraced casino operator Merrill-Lynch.

Key's addiction has always been to take and parlay other people's money solely to line both his own pockets and the coffers of his employer without returning one cent of real-value productivity to the world economy.

Under Key's premiership, New Zealand's wealth divide has grown even wider. He stood by and allowed the economy to become even more stagnant while zero-productivity speculation let rip.

But with stagnation the real-productivity pie still remains the same size, yet its wealthier-than-most slice continues remorselessly to expand like an steadily opening fan.

The inevitable has happened and it's been getting ever worse by the day. The coronavirus crisis and the measures taken to combat it have only exacerbated it.

Is all this OK with you, Bill?
m***@gmail.com
2020-05-01 05:51:01 UTC
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Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/tarana/latest/121306264/high-taxes-in-the-short-term-not-the-way-forward-for-economic-recovery-says-sir-john-key
He has the sense not to talk of tax cuts, which Bridges apparently
still supports . . .
Thank God Key and Bridges and their hopeless colleagues will be nowhere near the government for at least another decade,

Actually, thank Jacinda for it.
George
2020-05-01 20:25:10 UTC
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 22:51:01 -0700 (PDT)
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/tarana/latest/121306264/high-taxes-in-the-short-term-not-the-way-forward-for-economic-recovery-says-sir-john-key
He has the sense not to talk of tax cuts, which Bridges apparently
still supports . . .
Thank God Key and Bridges and their hopeless colleagues will be
nowhere near the government for at least another decade,
Actually, thank Jacinda for it.
Another believer in the fake news message.
Remind me... In the US the fake news ran polls that had a 90% guarantee
that a woman was going to be next president and break through a glass
ceiling while her opponent was going to die of shame..
Can you catch us up on what actually happened there ?
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Rich80105
2020-05-01 21:09:24 UTC
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Post by George
On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 22:51:01 -0700 (PDT)
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/tarana/latest/121306264/high-taxes-in-the-short-term-not-the-way-forward-for-economic-recovery-says-sir-john-key
He has the sense not to talk of tax cuts, which Bridges apparently
still supports . . .
Thank God Key and Bridges and their hopeless colleagues will be
nowhere near the government for at least another decade,
Actually, thank Jacinda for it.
Another believer in the fake news message.
Remind me... In the US the fake news ran polls that had a 90% guarantee
that a woman was going to be next president and break through a glass
ceiling while her opponent was going to die of shame..
Can you catch us up on what actually happened there ?
The US are dying of shame?
Tony
2020-05-01 23:25:45 UTC
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Post by Rich80105
Post by George
On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 22:51:01 -0700 (PDT)
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/tarana/latest/121306264/high-taxes-in-the-short-term-not-the-way-forward-for-economic-recovery-says-sir-john-key
He has the sense not to talk of tax cuts, which Bridges apparently
still supports . . .
Thank God Key and Bridges and their hopeless colleagues will be
nowhere near the government for at least another decade,
Actually, thank Jacinda for it.
Another believer in the fake news message.
Remind me... In the US the fake news ran polls that had a 90% guarantee
that a woman was going to be next president and break through a glass
ceiling while her opponent was going to die of shame..
Can you catch us up on what actually happened there ?
The US are dying of shame?
As are Labour supporters here.

James Christophers
2020-05-01 21:47:31 UTC
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Post by George
On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 22:51:01 -0700 (PDT)
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/tarana/latest/121306264/high-taxes-in-the-short-term-not-the-way-forward-for-economic-recovery-says-sir-john-key
He has the sense not to talk of tax cuts, which Bridges apparently
still supports . . .
Thank God Key and Bridges and their hopeless colleagues will be
nowhere near the government for at least another decade,
Actually, thank Jacinda for it.
Another believer in the fake news message.
Remind me... In the US the fake news ran polls that had a 90% guarantee
that a woman was going to be next president and break through a glass
ceiling while her opponent was going to die of shame..
Can you catch us up on what actually happened there ?
A Red Electoral College installed a lying narcissus with severe cognitive dysfunction and who had garnered 3 million fewer popular votes than his opponent.

He ran the US $2Trillion further into debt with huge tax cuts for his buddies while making the US more economically and socially divided than at any time since the end of the Civil War.

About a year ago, the global airlines industry rated Trump the biggest hazard to global safety and security.

To top it all off, within a short space of 3 months, and solely through their own incompetence, Trump and his rotten-to-the-core administration together have been the direct cause of more US fatalities than the total sustained during the Vietnam War.

All OK with you, George..?
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