Discussion:
Hearing from other Ministers
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Rich80105
2020-05-10 02:07:07 UTC
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As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm

And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
detail:
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
Tony
2020-05-10 02:17:31 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Rich80105
As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm
And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
The email was clear, why was it sent?
Rich80105
2020-05-10 08:15:21 UTC
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Permalink
On Sat, 09 May 2020 21:17:31 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm
And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
The email was clear, why was it sent?
It was not meant to be public; but I agree it should not have been
needed in the first place; some things are better covered by ringing
around.
Tony
2020-05-10 20:54:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 09 May 2020 21:17:31 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm
And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
The email was clear, why was it sent?
It was not meant to be public; but I agree it should not have been
needed in the first place; some things are better covered by ringing
around.
And it was clearly an instruction to not engage with the press - fact.
Rich80105
2020-05-10 21:38:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 May 2020 15:54:33 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 09 May 2020 21:17:31 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm
And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
The email was clear, why was it sent?
It was not meant to be public; but I agree it should not have been
needed in the first place; some things are better covered by ringing
around.
And it was clearly an instruction to not engage with the press - fact.
No it was not. It related specifically to the release of papers only,
and merely required approval to talk about that material before any
questions were answered by anyone other than the Minister responsible.

You consistent and persistent lying is getting to be quite annoying,
Tony - why do you do it?
Tony
2020-05-10 21:58:49 UTC
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Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 10 May 2020 15:54:33 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 09 May 2020 21:17:31 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm
And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
The email was clear, why was it sent?
It was not meant to be public; but I agree it should not have been
needed in the first place; some things are better covered by ringing
around.
And it was clearly an instruction to not engage with the press - fact.
No it was not. It related specifically to the release of papers only,
and merely required approval to talk about that material before any
questions were answered by anyone other than the Minister responsible.
You consistent and persistent lying is getting to be quite annoying,
Tony - why do you do it?
No lie, read the bloody email. It specifically asked that miniters not be
interviewed. Nothing more clear than that.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/gag-order-ministers-after-covid-19-document-dump-arrogant-move-government-commentator-says

Oh and you are the biggest user of lies here, now and always before. So why do
you do it?
John Bowes
2020-05-11 21:43:20 UTC
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Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 10 May 2020 15:54:33 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 09 May 2020 21:17:31 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm
And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
The email was clear, why was it sent?
It was not meant to be public; but I agree it should not have been
needed in the first place; some things are better covered by ringing
around.
And it was clearly an instruction to not engage with the press - fact.
No it was not. It related specifically to the release of papers only,
and merely required approval to talk about that material before any
questions were answered by anyone other than the Minister responsible.
You consistent and persistent lying is getting to be quite annoying,
Tony - why do you do it?
The only lies are yours Rich! Probably because of your inability to comprehend the stupidity and dictatorial attitude of your glorious leader who won nothing but was appointed by the arch fraudster Peters!
James Christophers
2020-05-10 22:38:39 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 09 May 2020 21:17:31 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm
And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
The email was clear, why was it sent?
It was not meant to be public; but I agree it should not have been
needed in the first place; some things are better covered by ringing
around.
And it was clearly an instruction to not engage with the press - fact.
Already established way back, so why further fixate and bang on about it? Rich is unlikely to mend his ways any time soon if for no other reason than your less than vestigial powers of persuasion are simply not up to the task.

Hopefully, then, to put you in a more productive and constructive frame of mind, I recommend Gordon Campbell's article Rich refers to in his opening post.

An excerpt:

"As countries around the world tentatively emerge from lockdown, a lot of political noise is being generated by politically-driven arguments that (a) the safeguards need to be lifted faster and (b) the lockdown itself was an over-reaction likely to leave lasting economic damage in its wake. In other words…the success of the lockdowns (in saving lives) is being cited as evidence that the risk was overstated, and the preventative measures taken were unnecessary. Somehow, the economic pain resulting from a global pandemic is being blamed on decisions made by the New Zealand government."

Well put, as is the rest of the article.

Much of Bridges's Covid-19 politicking fails to gain traction because of his having so foolishly and ineptly embroiled himself in the ad absurdum bugger's muddle Campbell refers to above.

Bridges as a leader? Somehow I sense I'm not alone in believing National can do better than this - but when or how, God only knows...
Tony
2020-05-10 22:52:17 UTC
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Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 09 May 2020 21:17:31 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
Post by Rich80105
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm
And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
Post by Rich80105
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
The email was clear, why was it sent?
It was not meant to be public; but I agree it should not have been
needed in the first place; some things are better covered by ringing
around.
And it was clearly an instruction to not engage with the press - fact.
Already established way back, so why further fixate and bang on about it?
Because I can and because Rich and other readers need reminding that he is a
liar. And it is no more a fixation than your delight in trying to find fault
with me.

In your case you do seem keen on hiding your head in the sand; hiding does not
stop the boogeyman.
Rich is a threat to truth and that is enough for someone who does not lie and
cares about the bad behaviour of others.
All else is moot.

Rich is unlikely to mend his ways any time soon if for no other reason than
your less than vestigial powers of persuasion are simply not up to the task.
Indeed yours are no better. But so what, I shall not stop showing him up for
what he really is.
Post by James Christophers
Hopefully, then, to put you in a more productive and constructive frame of
mind, I recommend Gordon Campbell's article Rich refers to in his opening post.
"As countries around the world tentatively emerge from lockdown, a lot of
political noise is being generated by politically-driven arguments that (a) the
safeguards need to be lifted faster and (b) the lockdown itself was an
over-reaction likely to leave lasting economic damage in its wake. In other
words
the success of the lockdowns (in saving lives) is being cited as
evidence that the risk was overstated, and the preventative measures taken were
unnecessary. Somehow, the economic pain resulting from a global pandemic is
being blamed on decisions made by the New Zealand government."
Well put, as is the rest of the article.
Much of Bridges's Covid-19 politicking fails to gain traction because of his
having so foolishly and ineptly embroiled himself in the ad absurdum bugger's
muddle Campbell refers to above.
Bridges as a leader? Somehow I sense I'm not alone in believing National can
do better than this - but when or how, God only knows...
James Christophers
2020-05-11 01:24:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 09 May 2020 21:17:31 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
Post by Rich80105
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm
And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
Post by Rich80105
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
The email was clear, why was it sent?
It was not meant to be public; but I agree it should not have been
needed in the first place; some things are better covered by ringing
around.
And it was clearly an instruction to not engage with the press - fact.
Already established way back, so why further fixate and bang on about it?
Because I can...
Vacuity speaks its very name.
...and because Rich and other readers need reminding that he is a
liar.
Doubtful if Rich needs reminding of anything much at all. As for other readers who the f..k are you to patronise them as you do?
And it is no more a fixation than your delight in trying to find fault
with me.
I don't need to find fault - its manifold manifestations exude from your every pore.
In your case you do seem keen on hiding your head in the sand; hiding does not
stop the boogeyman.
What bogeyman? Rich, **your** bogeyman??

No, I am a seasoned realist who nevertheless queries the status quo and other issues as and when I think appropriate. You may well be able to do likewise when you've finally grown up, so why not give the latter a shot right now?
Rich is a threat to truth and that is enough for someone who does not lie and
cares about the bad behaviour of others.
Rich is as an amoeba is to an elephant's backside. But Rich and you are co-dependent in that you are each other's oxygen supply, Rich being very much less reliant on you than you on he. A co-dependency made in Hell, I grant you, but one that has only happened because you are hopelessly addicted to it. Rich is plainly your reason to exist, whereas the reverse doesn't apply. Hence your foolhardy enslavement to his ways.
All else is moot.
Mmmmm...if you say so, but what's that worth, eh?
Rich is unlikely to mend his ways any time soon if for no other reason than
your less than vestigial powers of persuasion are simply not up to the task.
Indeed yours are no better. But so what, I shall not stop showing him up for
what he really is.
He already knows what he is and is evidently happy to "show himself up" without any help from you. But if you're so institutionally inept as to persist in aiding and encouraging him in his behaviour, then more fool you.
Post by James Christophers
Hopefully, then, to put you in a more productive and constructive frame of
mind, I recommend Gordon Campbell's article Rich refers to in his opening post.
"As countries around the world tentatively emerge from lockdown, a lot of
political noise is being generated by politically-driven arguments that (a) the
safeguards need to be lifted faster and (b) the lockdown itself was an
over-reaction likely to leave lasting economic damage in its wake. In other
words…the success of the lockdowns (in saving lives) is being cited as
evidence that the risk was overstated, and the preventative measures taken were
unnecessary. Somehow, the economic pain resulting from a global pandemic is
being blamed on decisions made by the New Zealand government."
Well put, as is the rest of the article.
Much of Bridges's Covid-19 politicking fails to gain traction because of his
having so foolishly and ineptly embroiled himself in the ad absurdum bugger's
muddle Campbell refers to above.
Bridges as a leader? Somehow I sense I'm not alone in believing National can
do better than this - but when or how, God only knows...
So...what do you reckon (and please, just this once don't allow Rich to do your thinking for you)?
Tony
2020-05-11 02:21:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 09 May 2020 21:17:31 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
Post by Rich80105
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm
And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
Post by Rich80105
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
The email was clear, why was it sent?
It was not meant to be public; but I agree it should not have been
needed in the first place; some things are better covered by ringing
around.
And it was clearly an instruction to not engage with the press - fact.
Already established way back, so why further fixate and bang on about it?
Because I can...
Vacuity speaks its very name which is Keith Warren
...and because Rich and other readers need reminding that he is a
liar.
Doubtful if Rich needs reminding of anything much at all. As for other
readers who the f..k are you to patronise them as you do?
And who the hell do you think you are patronising all and sundry here,
repetitively and ad nauseam.
And it is no more a fixation than your delight in trying to find fault
with me.
In your case you do seem keen on hiding your head in the sand; hiding does not
stop the boogeyman.
Rich is a threat to truth and that is enough for someone who does not lie and
cares about the bad behaviour of others.
All else is moot.
Rich is unlikely to mend his ways any time soon if for no other reason than
your less than vestigial powers of persuasion are simply not up to the task.
As I wrote "Indeed yours are no better".
Indeed yours are no better. But so what, I shall not stop showing him up for
what he really is.
Post by James Christophers
Hopefully, then, to put you in a more productive and constructive frame of
mind, I recommend Gordon Campbell's article Rich refers to in his opening post.
"As countries around the world tentatively emerge from lockdown, a lot of
political noise is being generated by politically-driven arguments that (a) the
safeguards need to be lifted faster and (b) the lockdown itself was an
over-reaction likely to leave lasting economic damage in its wake. In other
words
the success of the lockdowns (in saving lives) is being cited as
evidence that the risk was overstated, and the preventative measures taken were
unnecessary. Somehow, the economic pain resulting from a global pandemic is
being blamed on decisions made by the New Zealand government."
Well put, as is the rest of the article.
Much of Bridges's Covid-19 politicking fails to gain traction because of his
having so foolishly and ineptly embroiled himself in the ad absurdum bugger's
muddle Campbell refers to above.
Bridges as a leader? Somehow I sense I'm not alone in believing National can
do better than this - but when or how, God only knows...
So...what do you reckon (and please, just this once don't allow Rich to do
your thinking for you)?
Much abuse removed, maybe Keith will feel better now that he has vomited abuse
and all over this newsgroup once more.
Crash
2020-05-10 03:53:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm
And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
All good stuff Rich which I largely agree with. It seems though that
you omitted other recent developments in respect of the document dump
on Friday and the alleged directive from the PM to Ministerial staff
providing advice to not comment on said document dump - meaning her
intention is that we should NOT be hearing from any Ministers now.
This is touched on here:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121463969/are-these-the-first-signs-of-third-term-arrogance-from-a-first-term-government

It is an opinion piece to support the author's allegation of
government over-confidence but of more interest are the snippets of
supporting argument in this article.

I agree that National have been largely sidelined during the lock-down
and where Bridges has attempted to get traction opposing Government
decisions he has failed because of poor judgment. This is because of
widespread public support for the lock-down.

However that support is already eroding. We are still in Level 3 and
we know what Level 2 will be and we will know when we move to level 2
tomorrow. However there is widespread instances of public
disobedience of level 3 lock-down requirements, particularly this
weekend (May 9-10) and this is new. We did not have this sort of
problem last weekend.

Bridges should just get on with the job. There will be future
opportunities to pick apart what the Government has done, and is (or
is not) doing. But this is after the return to Level 1 (not 2).




--
Crash McBash
Rich80105
2020-05-10 08:14:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm
And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
All good stuff Rich which I largely agree with. It seems though that
you omitted other recent developments in respect of the document dump
on Friday and the alleged directive from the PM to Ministerial staff
providing advice to not comment on said document dump - meaning her
intention is that we should NOT be hearing from any Ministers now.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121463969/are-these-the-first-signs-of-third-term-arrogance-from-a-first-term-government
It is an opinion piece to support the author's allegation of
government over-confidence but of more interest are the snippets of
supporting argument in this article.
The memo was clearly a mistake - the general mantra is never write
anything that you would not be prepared to see on the front page of a
newspaper. I have seen it not as a directive relating to all matters,
but as a short term directive not to comment on the large number of
documents released. It is common for reporters to ask simlar questions
from a range of people, both to get different perspectives, but also
to identify inconsistencies. The documents dealt with an intense
pre-0cculation with a single but large issue which absorbed a huger
amount of time, especially for a small number of people, and
peripherally with others who may have not seen the whole picture. It
would be easy to get the wrong impression from questions, especially
those asked before all the papers had even been read by reporters; and
with the government having the possible move from level 3 to 2, as
well as a budget, it would have been important to keep discussions ön
track"- indeed I expect the papers to show that while there may ahve
been many proposals and difficult decisions, the importance of a
single confident and clear message would have been seen as critical
from the outset - sidetracking over minor disagreements, the timing of
changes in scientific advice etc are effectively red-herrings at tis
time; the government would not have wanted the focus to move too far
from current decisions, and also not to have the focus move from the
presentation of those decisions on Monday 11th. The Prime Minister is
probably one of the few to have an overall view of the major aspects,
and she, probably quite rightly, needed to keep her time clear due the
the decisions facing the country this week.

Already there is detail in the papers released that will be of
historical value - about the differing viewpoints, the timing of
information with the need for decisions, and the need to keep that
clarity of pupose, the need to be seen to not be hiding important
information, to take people with the government. Releasing the
information was probably required under the OIA; there had possibly
been a team working for a few weeks to put it all together and make
decisions as to what should be disclosed. From teh little that has
been commented on there does appear to be more information than most
wuld have expected, particularly as it relates to prposals from
different Ministers and different parties. Political management can be
about other things than partisan politics - it can be about getting us
through the pandemic as quickly as possible with a minimum of
dis-harmony and second-guessing.
Post by Crash
I agree that National have been largely sidelined during the lock-down
and where Bridges has attempted to get traction opposing Government
decisions he has failed because of poor judgment. This is because of
widespread public support for the lock-down.
However that support is already eroding. We are still in Level 3 and
we know what Level 2 will be and we will know when we move to level 2
tomorrow. However there is widespread instances of public
disobedience of level 3 lock-down requirements, particularly this
weekend (May 9-10) and this is new. We did not have this sort of
problem last weekend.
There was similar disobedience at the time of moving from 4 to 3 -
with similar nit-picking about whether it should have been one or two
days earlier - trivial bitching that did however have the effect of
some beliving that an immediate decision was imminent and that
therefore a day or two earlier will not matter. The move from 3 to 2
is I suspect not quite as easy as the move from 4 to 3 - we are still
getting more cases than most expected; but I believe the message about
what the next stage means, and why detai is important, des need those
messages to be promulgated over a period. Even now, if you ask people
what the separation distance should be in Level 2, you would get
answers of 1m, 1.5m and 2m - with some strongly believing that anyone
thinking differently from them has it wrong. Ability to travel
distances is unclear to some, ability to expand bubbles unclear. Again
gotcha reporting would be an unwanted distraction at this time; the
time for analysis is in a coule of weeks when I believe we will be in
Level 2 and can take a week or so looking back. Managing discussion in
budget wek, with a change of level, is hard enough withut
irrelevancies destrying clarity of messages that can save lives.
Post by Crash
Bridges should just get on with the job. There will be future
opportunities to pick apart what the Government has done, and is (or
is not) doing. But this is after the return to Level 1 (not 2).
I agree; but what is important are the big issues. National generally
have only been promoting slogans, although Goldsmith and Williamson
have tried to flech some things out; but the most inexplicable must be
the attack on a public health official over the release of legal
advice. This created a difficulty for the government in that they did
not want to criticise or diminish the status of the Committee which
Bridges chairs; but it did need to be address' David Parker dis that
by saying "… the tone of some of those attacks has the potential, and
is sometimes intended, to undermine public confidence in the measures
that we have all taken to stamp out Covid-19. Those measure are vital
to saving many lives and important for our economy, but ultimately
rely mainly on voluntary compliance and trust in the Police powers to
enforce significant breaches I feel it is proper for me as
Attorney-General to make these comments. More so, because we have seen
in other countries the impact of public confidence being undermined. I
don’t want to see that happen." and later: "Let me say it again, as
I have previously, that on the advice we have received from Crown Law
there is no gap in the legality of the powers of enforcement under
levels 3 and 4.
This issue is the subject of judicial determination and that will be
resolved soon. The courts are where – quite rightly – disputes will be
determined. "

The issue has also been covered by this:
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/10-05-2020/geoffrey-palmer-hallelujah-new-zealand-government-works/
in which using a past Labour Prime Minister there are inevitably some
glowing comments, but the Palmers status as being knowledgeable about
laws covers the issue in teh latter part of the article.

At the core of the problems was I suspect the refusal of Bridges to be
briefed - I can understand some reasons, but on this one he showed
that he is deficient in the very area in which his previous occupation
as a prosecutor may lead some to expect that he would at least be a
bit cautious before making accusations of illegal conduct.

From the government perspective, this needed to be kept away from
ongoing Covid-19 "all of government" actions, and it was.
Rich80105
2020-05-11 07:58:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm
And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
All good stuff Rich which I largely agree with. It seems though that
you omitted other recent developments in respect of the document dump
on Friday and the alleged directive from the PM to Ministerial staff
providing advice to not comment on said document dump - meaning her
intention is that we should NOT be hearing from any Ministers now.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121463969/are-these-the-first-signs-of-third-term-arrogance-from-a-first-term-government
It is an opinion piece to support the author's allegation of
government over-confidence but of more interest are the snippets of
supporting argument in this article.
The memo was clearly a mistake - the general mantra is never write
anything that you would not be prepared to see on the front page of a
newspaper. I have seen it not as a directive relating to all matters,
but as a short term directive not to comment on the large number of
documents released. It is common for reporters to ask simlar questions
from a range of people, both to get different perspectives, but also
to identify inconsistencies. The documents dealt with an intense
pre-0cculation with a single but large issue which absorbed a huger
amount of time, especially for a small number of people, and
peripherally with others who may have not seen the whole picture. It
would be easy to get the wrong impression from questions, especially
those asked before all the papers had even been read by reporters; and
with the government having the possible move from level 3 to 2, as
well as a budget, it would have been important to keep discussions ön
track"- indeed I expect the papers to show that while there may ahve
been many proposals and difficult decisions, the importance of a
single confident and clear message would have been seen as critical
from the outset - sidetracking over minor disagreements, the timing of
changes in scientific advice etc are effectively red-herrings at tis
time; the government would not have wanted the focus to move too far
from current decisions, and also not to have the focus move from the
presentation of those decisions on Monday 11th. The Prime Minister is
probably one of the few to have an overall view of the major aspects,
and she, probably quite rightly, needed to keep her time clear due the
the decisions facing the country this week.
Already there is detail in the papers released that will be of
historical value - about the differing viewpoints, the timing of
information with the need for decisions, and the need to keep that
clarity of pupose, the need to be seen to not be hiding important
information, to take people with the government. Releasing the
information was probably required under the OIA; there had possibly
been a team working for a few weeks to put it all together and make
decisions as to what should be disclosed. From teh little that has
been commented on there does appear to be more information than most
wuld have expected, particularly as it relates to prposals from
different Ministers and different parties. Political management can be
about other things than partisan politics - it can be about getting us
through the pandemic as quickly as possible with a minimum of
dis-harmony and second-guessing.
Post by Crash
I agree that National have been largely sidelined during the lock-down
and where Bridges has attempted to get traction opposing Government
decisions he has failed because of poor judgment. This is because of
widespread public support for the lock-down.
However that support is already eroding. We are still in Level 3 and
we know what Level 2 will be and we will know when we move to level 2
tomorrow. However there is widespread instances of public
disobedience of level 3 lock-down requirements, particularly this
weekend (May 9-10) and this is new. We did not have this sort of
problem last weekend.
There was similar disobedience at the time of moving from 4 to 3 -
with similar nit-picking about whether it should have been one or two
days earlier - trivial bitching that did however have the effect of
some beliving that an immediate decision was imminent and that
therefore a day or two earlier will not matter. The move from 3 to 2
is I suspect not quite as easy as the move from 4 to 3 - we are still
getting more cases than most expected; but I believe the message about
what the next stage means, and why detai is important, des need those
messages to be promulgated over a period. Even now, if you ask people
what the separation distance should be in Level 2, you would get
answers of 1m, 1.5m and 2m - with some strongly believing that anyone
thinking differently from them has it wrong. Ability to travel
distances is unclear to some, ability to expand bubbles unclear. Again
gotcha reporting would be an unwanted distraction at this time; the
time for analysis is in a coule of weeks when I believe we will be in
Level 2 and can take a week or so looking back. Managing discussion in
budget week, with a change of level, is hard enough without
irrelevancies destroying the clarity of messages that can save lives.
Post by Crash
Bridges should just get on with the job. There will be future
opportunities to pick apart what the Government has done, and is (or
is not) doing. But this is after the return to Level 1 (not 2).
I agree; but what is important are the big issues. National generally
have only been promoting slogans, although Goldsmith and Williamson
have tried to flesh some things out; but the most inexplicable must be
the attack on a public health official over the release of legal
advice. This created a difficulty for the government in that they did
not want to criticise or diminish the status of the Committee which
Bridges chairs; but it did need to be addressed. David Parker did that
by saying "… the tone of some of those attacks has the potential, and
is sometimes intended, to undermine public confidence in the measures
that we have all taken to stamp out Covid-19. Those measure are vital
to saving many lives and important for our economy, but ultimately
rely mainly on voluntary compliance and trust in the Police powers to
enforce significant breaches I feel it is proper for me as
Attorney-General to make these comments. More so, because we have seen
in other countries the impact of public confidence being undermined. I
don’t want to see that happen." and later: "Let me say it again, as
I have previously, that on the advice we have received from Crown Law
there is no gap in the legality of the powers of enforcement under
levels 3 and 4.
This issue is the subject of judicial determination and that will be
resolved soon. The courts are where – quite rightly – disputes will be
determined. "
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/10-05-2020/geoffrey-palmer-hallelujah-new-zealand-government-works/
in which using a past Labour Prime Minister there are inevitably some
glowing comments, but Palmers status as being knowledgeable about
laws covers the issue in the latter part of the article.
At the core of the problems was I suspect the refusal of Bridges to be
briefed - I can understand some reasons, but on this one he showed
that he is deficient in the very area in which his previous occupation
as a prosecutor may lead some to expect that he would at least be a
bit cautious before making accusations of illegal conduct.
From the government perspective, this needed to be kept away from
ongoing Covid-19 "all of government" actions, and it was.
I realise that I made a mistake in this very silly tom blame other party
Impersonating another poster is always a mistake . . .
John Bowes
2020-05-11 22:00:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
As the focus on the Covid-19 lockdown starts to widen to include what
next under level 2, we are starting to hear from various ministers
about plans
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/pharmacs-funding-boosted-160-million-over-four-years-government
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121445522/coronavirus-tourism-minister-warns-high-prices-could-dampen-domestic-travel?cid=facebook.post
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2005/S00072/biosecurity-and-conservation-jobs-for-redeployed-workers.htm
And then there are those who have nothing to offer but quibbling about
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2005/S00014/on-the-dodgy-politics-of-easing-level-three.htm
All good stuff Rich which I largely agree with. It seems though that
you omitted other recent developments in respect of the document dump
on Friday and the alleged directive from the PM to Ministerial staff
providing advice to not comment on said document dump - meaning her
intention is that we should NOT be hearing from any Ministers now.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121463969/are-these-the-first-signs-of-third-term-arrogance-from-a-first-term-government
It is an opinion piece to support the author's allegation of
government over-confidence but of more interest are the snippets of
supporting argument in this article.
The memo was clearly a mistake - the general mantra is never write
anything that you would not be prepared to see on the front page of a
newspaper. I have seen it not as a directive relating to all matters,
but as a short term directive not to comment on the large number of
documents released. It is common for reporters to ask simlar questions
from a range of people, both to get different perspectives, but also
to identify inconsistencies. The documents dealt with an intense
pre-0cculation with a single but large issue which absorbed a huger
amount of time, especially for a small number of people, and
peripherally with others who may have not seen the whole picture. It
would be easy to get the wrong impression from questions, especially
those asked before all the papers had even been read by reporters; and
with the government having the possible move from level 3 to 2, as
well as a budget, it would have been important to keep discussions ön
track"- indeed I expect the papers to show that while there may ahve
been many proposals and difficult decisions, the importance of a
single confident and clear message would have been seen as critical
from the outset - sidetracking over minor disagreements, the timing of
changes in scientific advice etc are effectively red-herrings at tis
time; the government would not have wanted the focus to move too far
from current decisions, and also not to have the focus move from the
presentation of those decisions on Monday 11th. The Prime Minister is
probably one of the few to have an overall view of the major aspects,
and she, probably quite rightly, needed to keep her time clear due the
the decisions facing the country this week.
Already there is detail in the papers released that will be of
historical value - about the differing viewpoints, the timing of
information with the need for decisions, and the need to keep that
clarity of pupose, the need to be seen to not be hiding important
information, to take people with the government. Releasing the
information was probably required under the OIA; there had possibly
been a team working for a few weeks to put it all together and make
decisions as to what should be disclosed. From teh little that has
been commented on there does appear to be more information than most
wuld have expected, particularly as it relates to prposals from
different Ministers and different parties. Political management can be
about other things than partisan politics - it can be about getting us
through the pandemic as quickly as possible with a minimum of
dis-harmony and second-guessing.
Post by Crash
I agree that National have been largely sidelined during the lock-down
and where Bridges has attempted to get traction opposing Government
decisions he has failed because of poor judgment. This is because of
widespread public support for the lock-down.
However that support is already eroding. We are still in Level 3 and
we know what Level 2 will be and we will know when we move to level 2
tomorrow. However there is widespread instances of public
disobedience of level 3 lock-down requirements, particularly this
weekend (May 9-10) and this is new. We did not have this sort of
problem last weekend.
There was similar disobedience at the time of moving from 4 to 3 -
with similar nit-picking about whether it should have been one or two
days earlier - trivial bitching that did however have the effect of
some beliving that an immediate decision was imminent and that
therefore a day or two earlier will not matter. The move from 3 to 2
is I suspect not quite as easy as the move from 4 to 3 - we are still
getting more cases than most expected; but I believe the message about
what the next stage means, and why detai is important, des need those
messages to be promulgated over a period. Even now, if you ask people
what the separation distance should be in Level 2, you would get
answers of 1m, 1.5m and 2m - with some strongly believing that anyone
thinking differently from them has it wrong. Ability to travel
distances is unclear to some, ability to expand bubbles unclear. Again
gotcha reporting would be an unwanted distraction at this time; the
time for analysis is in a coule of weeks when I believe we will be in
Level 2 and can take a week or so looking back. Managing discussion in
budget week, with a change of level, is hard enough without
irrelevancies destroying the clarity of messages that can save lives.
Post by Crash
Bridges should just get on with the job. There will be future
opportunities to pick apart what the Government has done, and is (or
is not) doing. But this is after the return to Level 1 (not 2).
I agree; but what is important are the big issues. National generally
have only been promoting slogans, although Goldsmith and Williamson
have tried to flesh some things out; but the most inexplicable must be
the attack on a public health official over the release of legal
advice. This created a difficulty for the government in that they did
not want to criticise or diminish the status of the Committee which
Bridges chairs; but it did need to be addressed. David Parker did that
by saying "… the tone of some of those attacks has the potential, and
is sometimes intended, to undermine public confidence in the measures
that we have all taken to stamp out Covid-19. Those measure are vital
to saving many lives and important for our economy, but ultimately
rely mainly on voluntary compliance and trust in the Police powers to
enforce significant breaches I feel it is proper for me as
Attorney-General to make these comments. More so, because we have seen
in other countries the impact of public confidence being undermined. I
don’t want to see that happen." and later: "Let me say it again, as
I have previously, that on the advice we have received from Crown Law
there is no gap in the legality of the powers of enforcement under
levels 3 and 4.
This issue is the subject of judicial determination and that will be
resolved soon. The courts are where – quite rightly – disputes will be
determined. "
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/10-05-2020/geoffrey-palmer-hallelujah-new-zealand-government-works/
in which using a past Labour Prime Minister there are inevitably some
glowing comments, but Palmers status as being knowledgeable about
laws covers the issue in the latter part of the article.
At the core of the problems was I suspect the refusal of Bridges to be
briefed - I can understand some reasons, but on this one he showed
that he is deficient in the very area in which his previous occupation
as a prosecutor may lead some to expect that he would at least be a
bit cautious before making accusations of illegal conduct.
From the government perspective, this needed to be kept away from
ongoing Covid-19 "all of government" actions, and it was.
I realise that I made a mistake in this very silly tom blame other party
Impersonating another poster is always a mistake . . .
Sure it's not you looking for sympathy Rich. Or maybe one of your persona has gone rogue :)
George
2020-05-10 20:10:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 May 2020 15:53:16 +1200
Post by Crash
All good stuff Rich which I largely agree with. It seems though that
you omitted other recent developments in respect of the document dump
on Friday and the alleged directive from the PM to Ministerial staff
providing advice to not comment on said document dump - meaning her
intention is that we should NOT be hearing from any Ministers now.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121463969/are-these-the-first-signs-of-third-term-arrogance-from-a-first-term-government
It is an opinion piece to support the author's allegation of
government over-confidence but of more interest are the snippets of
supporting argument in this article.
I agree that National have been largely sidelined during the lock-down
and where Bridges has attempted to get traction opposing Government
decisions he has failed because of poor judgment. This is because of
widespread public support for the lock-down.
However that support is already eroding. We are still in Level 3 and
we know what Level 2 will be and we will know when we move to level 2
tomorrow. However there is widespread instances of public
disobedience of level 3 lock-down requirements, particularly this
weekend (May 9-10) and this is new. We did not have this sort of
problem last weekend.
Bridges should just get on with the job. There will be future
opportunities to pick apart what the Government has done, and is (or
is not) doing. But this is after the return to Level 1 (not 2).
The media doesn't support National or Bridges.
They can be considered to be our own fake news
--
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