Discussion:
Maori Wards: what is the problem again?
(too old to reply)
Crash
2021-02-04 04:49:31 UTC
Permalink
Interesting numbers on the number of Maori electorate to local
governments:

https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2021/02/disproving_the_big_lie.html


--
Crash McBash
John Bowes
2021-02-04 05:19:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
Interesting numbers on the number of Maori electorate to local
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2021/02/disproving_the_big_lie.html
--
Crash McBash
Interesting that the number of Maori being elected to Local government is steadily rising. Makes you wonder what exactly the governments rush is about because it's certainly not about under representation of Maori...
Crash
2021-02-04 07:16:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
Interesting numbers on the number of Maori electorate to local
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2021/02/disproving_the_big_lie.html
Oops make that "Maori elected".


--
Crash McBash
George Black
2021-02-04 19:13:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
Interesting numbers on the number of Maori electorate to local
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2021/02/disproving_the_big_lie.html
Yup.
You want to get onto the local council get elected.
Using race isn't democratic
Rich80105
2021-02-04 20:35:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Black
Post by Crash
Interesting numbers on the number of Maori electorate to local
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2021/02/disproving_the_big_lie.html
Yup.
You want to get onto the local council get elected.
Using race isn't democratic
All Councillors are elected. If you don't like decisions by the
elected Councillors vote for different candidates. That is democratic.
John Bowes
2021-02-04 21:04:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Crash
Interesting numbers on the number of Maori electorate to local
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2021/02/disproving_the_big_lie.html
Yup.
You want to get onto the local council get elected.
Using race isn't democratic
All Councillors are elected. If you don't like decisions by the
elected Councillors vote for different candidates. That is democratic.
Are the un needed extras going to be voted in by the councilors? Because that reeks of being anti democratic Rich! If Maori want to be on councils let them be voted on as happens now.
Typical of you and your blind support of our antidemocratic government that you ignore the fact that Maori are already well represented in Local Government as you'd know if you'd red Crash's link and not just the link heading!
Crash
2021-02-05 00:17:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Crash
Interesting numbers on the number of Maori electorate to local
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2021/02/disproving_the_big_lie.html
Yup.
You want to get onto the local council get elected.
Using race isn't democratic
All Councillors are elected. If you don't like decisions by the
elected Councillors vote for different candidates. That is democratic.
Taking the case of a local authority near me (typical of others):

a) Council voted to establish Maori wards after the 2019 election.
b) Prior to the 2019 election, the establishment of Maori Wards was
not an imminent decision, so therefore it did not have wings as an
election issue and few candidates therefore published their viewpoint.
c) Voters have objected using the law that Labour now intends to
retrospectively repeal.

Now Rich, how democratic was all of this?


--
Crash McBash
Rich80105
2021-02-05 02:48:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Crash
Interesting numbers on the number of Maori electorate to local
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2021/02/disproving_the_big_lie.html
Yup.
You want to get onto the local council get elected.
Using race isn't democratic
All Councillors are elected. If you don't like decisions by the
elected Councillors vote for different candidates. That is democratic.
a) Council voted to establish Maori wards after the 2019 election.
b) Prior to the 2019 election, the establishment of Maori Wards was
not an imminent decision, so therefore it did not have wings as an
election issue and few candidates therefore published their viewpoint.
c) Voters have objected using the law that Labour now intends to
retrospectively repeal.
I am not aware of retrospectivity - do you have a reference to that?
Post by Crash
Now Rich, how democratic was all of this?
Both National and local governments have been known to make decisions
which are later reversed, sometimes by the same party that pushed the
decision through in the first place. You might be happy about that,
but it is democracy.

I do not know if it is possible to have successive councils
introducing Maori Wards with the following Council reversing that, and
so on - under either current or proposed laws. Could you explain?
Gordon
2021-02-05 04:02:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Crash
Interesting numbers on the number of Maori electorate to local
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2021/02/disproving_the_big_lie.html
Yup.
You want to get onto the local council get elected.
Using race isn't democratic
All Councillors are elected. If you don't like decisions by the
elected Councillors vote for different candidates. That is democratic.
a) Council voted to establish Maori wards after the 2019 election.
b) Prior to the 2019 election, the establishment of Maori Wards was
not an imminent decision, so therefore it did not have wings as an
election issue and few candidates therefore published their viewpoint.
c) Voters have objected using the law that Labour now intends to
retrospectively repeal.
I am not aware of retrospectivity - do you have a reference to that?
Post by Crash
Now Rich, how democratic was all of this?
Both National and local governments have been known to make decisions
which are later reversed, sometimes by the same party that pushed the
decision through in the first place. You might be happy about that,
but it is democracy.
Not as I see it. Democracy is about freedom of expression and one person one
vote to elect the Governing body.
Post by Rich80105
I do not know if it is possible to have successive councils
introducing Maori Wards with the following Council reversing that, and
so on - under either current or proposed laws. Could you explain?
If they get established they will stay.

It also seems to me that we have an idea which the Government has not
thought through. Where is the handbrake?
Gordon
2021-02-05 03:54:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
Interesting numbers on the number of Maori electorate to local
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2021/02/disproving_the_big_lie.html
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

To the majority it appears that there is no problem. Maori are standing and
are being elected on a pro rata basis and everyone is happy I would suggest
apart from a small minority.

A truly mutli cultural country does not have on their radar, so there is all
the cultures of the country but none are "separated out".

Having a Maori this and a Maori that is not where we want to end up with.

Maori wards will only draw attention to differences between the races not
keep the blending process going.

Sure at the start you need to have activicists to get the change going in
the right direction but when it is moving, one needs to get off the others
back and walk along side them to help them along the road of change.
George Black
2021-02-23 19:14:16 UTC
Permalink
I see where the Maoriori are finally getting justice.
Kick all the plastics off the Chathams as they have no rights to the
land where their ancestors butchered and enslaved the inhabitants.
Come to think of it there are places and people in New Zealand who would
have to do a lot of moving to redress ancient grievances
Mutlley
2021-02-24 19:55:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Black
I see where the Maoriori are finally getting justice.
Kick all the plastics off the Chathams as they have no rights to the
land where their ancestors butchered and enslaved the inhabitants.
Come to think of it there are places and people in New Zealand who would
have to do a lot of moving to redress ancient grievances
Yes but they're getting this "justice from the white man via a Treaty
settlement . They should be going after the Maori tribes who
butchered and enslaved the inhabitants.
Rich80105
2021-02-24 21:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mutlley
Post by George Black
I see where the Maoriori are finally getting justice.
Kick all the plastics off the Chathams as they have no rights to the
land where their ancestors butchered and enslaved the inhabitants.
Come to think of it there are places and people in New Zealand who would
have to do a lot of moving to redress ancient grievances
Yes but they're getting this "justice from the white man via a Treaty
settlement . They should be going after the Maori tribes who
butchered and enslaved the inhabitants.
Treaty settlements were related to land grievances - the treaty
involved commitments that were much broader than just land.
George Black
2021-02-24 23:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mutlley
Post by George Black
I see where the Maoriori are finally getting justice.
Kick all the plastics off the Chathams as they have no rights to the
land where their ancestors butchered and enslaved the inhabitants.
Come to think of it there are places and people in New Zealand who would
have to do a lot of moving to redress ancient grievances
Yes but they're getting this "justice from the white man via a Treaty
settlement . They should be going after the Maori tribes who
butchered and enslaved the inhabitants.
The last full Maoriori was Tommy who died in the 30s.
He was the survivor of some 30 still enslaved by the invaders who should
have been held responsible and prosecuted for war crimes
Rich80105
2021-02-25 00:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Black
Post by Mutlley
Post by George Black
I see where the Maoriori are finally getting justice.
Kick all the plastics off the Chathams as they have no rights to the
land where their ancestors butchered and enslaved the inhabitants.
Come to think of it there are places and people in New Zealand who would
have to do a lot of moving to redress ancient grievances
Yes but they're getting this "justice from the white man via a Treaty
settlement . They should be going after the Maori tribes who
butchered and enslaved the inhabitants.
The last full Maoriori was Tommy who died in the 30s.
He was the survivor of some 30 still enslaved by the invaders who should
have been held responsible and prosecuted for war crimes
Usually spelled Moriori, there are lot of stories, some conflicting.
Two links of possible interest:
https://e-tangata.co.nz/reflections/moriori-still-setting-the-record-straight/
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/437070/moriori-treaty-settlement-passes-first-reading
James Christophers
2021-02-24 21:40:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
Interesting numbers on the number of Maori electorate to local
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2021/02/disproving_the_big_lie.html
Just wonderin', Crash, and I'm trying to be as dispassionate and even-handed about it as I can:

Has your local council told you clearly and exactly why they, as a consensual, democratic body (not Mahuta), **want** a maori ward and why **you personally** cannot do without it? ("council want" will not have escaped your notice.)

Because, to me, your (any) council's core function and duty is to represent the entire community it serves without regard to any special interest group, sub-section or race **per se**. But it seems to me that, whichever way the argument is shaped, race as the core rationale is exactly what Mahuta's forced "urgency" to legislate is all about. Or am I wrong? Anybody?

Perception is all and never more so than in politics. Where any sense or suspicion of "enforced" separatism on any supposedly "ratonalised" basis colours, distorts and misrepresents the political ethos and agenda, the insidious "thin end of the wedge" perception will surely prevail despite all attempts to prevent it doing so. Logic, reason and supportive goodwill fly out the window. Mistrust, suspicion and social division take their place before you can say "knife". Emotion and recalcitrance - even paranoia - are supremely primal instincts that shall not be denied.

So, when it comes to parliamentary "urgency" to legislate on this matter, I'd have thought such a determinedly forceful in-yer-face approach grievously ill-advised. It smacks of government kow-towing to a determinedly doughty Minister-cum-Special-Interests-Advocate with her own personal agenda to impose laws and policies that I fear can only end in tears.

This is **exactly** what happened and is still happening, and with a vengeance - and how! - in South Africa after Mandela died in late 2013.
Crash
2021-02-24 23:57:51 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:40:34 -0800 (PST), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Crash
Interesting numbers on the number of Maori electorate to local
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2021/02/disproving_the_big_lie.html
Has your local council told you clearly and exactly why they, as a consensual, democratic body (not Mahuta), **want** a maori ward and why **you personally** cannot do without it? ("council want" will not have escaped your notice.)
Because, to me, your (any) council's core function and duty is to represent the entire community it serves without regard to any special interest group, sub-section or race **per se**. But it seems to me that, whichever way the argument is shaped, race as the core rationale is exactly what Mahuta's forced "urgency" to legislate is all about. Or am I wrong? Anybody?
Perception is all and never more so than in politics. Where any sense or suspicion of "enforced" separatism on any supposedly "ratonalised" basis colours, distorts and misrepresents the political ethos and agenda, the insidious "thin end of the wedge" perception will surely prevail despite all attempts to prevent it doing so. Logic, reason and supportive goodwill fly out the window. Mistrust, suspicion and social division take their place before you can say "knife". Emotion and recalcitrance - even paranoia - are supremely primal instincts that shall not be denied.
So, when it comes to parliamentary "urgency" to legislate on this matter, I'd have thought such a determinedly forceful in-yer-face approach grievously ill-advised. It smacks of government kow-towing to a determinedly doughty Minister-cum-Special-Interests-Advocate with her own personal agenda to impose laws and policies that I fear can only end in tears.
This is **exactly** what happened and is still happening, and with a vengeance - and how! - in South Africa after Mandela died in late 2013.
The justification of Maori Wards was to replicate fixed seats for
Maori in Parliament to fixed seats on the governance of local bodies.
All local bodies can review how the community they serve gets to elect
those that make the decisions. Most have opted for a ward system, and
many are now creating new Maori-only wards All of this is based on a
premise that as a small minority, Maori are locked out of fair
representation. As DPF has pointed out this is not the case overall.
Recent Government actions have seen the right of electors to reject
Ward changes proposed by a local body, withdrawn in the case of
establishment of Maori wards.


--
Crash McBash
Loading...