Discussion:
Absolutely correct
(too old to reply)
Tony
2020-01-15 04:31:40 UTC
Permalink
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
John Bowes
2020-01-15 06:25:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Makes sense but impossible currently in NZ!
Crash
2020-01-15 07:11:54 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.

The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.

None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.


--
Crash McBash
Tony
2020-01-15 07:50:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with people who
do not put politics before integrity.
Rich80105
2020-01-15 09:40:04 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 01:50:05 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with people who
do not put politics before integrity.
By and large you are getting your wish - apart from some media noise
responding to lies, that is exactly what the current government is
doing. They are not doing well in everything, but certainly there is
now more in the pipeline than there has been for a very long time. I
was amused at the comment by Gary Moore : "The political parties say
'I built 10 houses and you only built eight' and that's the level of
conversation that's not healthy," he said."

It illustrates well that there are many layers of the housing
situation - in relation to social housing which he is most comcerned
about, the current government has increased supply by around 3000
houses; but the prevous Key/English governments overall reduced the
number of houses to meet social housing needs - while also encouraging
increased immigration. Special Housing Areas were thought to be a good
idea, but did not work out well in practice because of difficulties
with financing and also a not particularly effective building market.
We lost trades people at various imes (I remember quite a few leaving
at the time of the Queensland floods, we may lose more with the
fires). Crash is right that no government has handled social housing
well since the neo-liberal changes following Muldoon, but there have
been differences; never more so than following hte last election.

The following article is by a left supporter, but does largely take an
analytical rather than "blame" approach, but does cover thrugh links a
number of aspects of the issues. I has been said before but I think it
is time we started measuing building completions as well as consents -
there were huge differences as some SHAs were treated as "land-banks"
Rich80105
2020-01-15 09:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 01:50:05 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with people who
do not put politics before integrity.
By and large you are getting your wish - apart from some media noise
responding to lies, that is exactly what the current government is
doing. They are not doing well in everything, but certainly there is
now more in the pipeline than there has been for a very long time. I
was amused at the comment by Gary Moore : "The political parties say
'I built 10 houses and you only built eight' and that's the level of
conversation that's not healthy," he said."
It illustrates well that there are many layers of the housing
situation - in relation to social housing which he is most comcerned
about, the current government has increased supply by around 3000
houses; but the prevous Key/English governments overall reduced the
number of houses to meet social housing needs - while also encouraging
increased immigration. Special Housing Areas were thought to be a good
idea, but did not work out well in practice because of difficulties
with financing and also a not particularly effective building market.
We lost trades people at various imes (I remember quite a few leaving
at the time of the Queensland floods, we may lose more with the
fires). Crash is right that no government has handled social housing
well since the neo-liberal changes following Muldoon, but there have
been differences; never more so than following hte last election.
The following article is by a left supporter, but does largely take an
analytical rather than "blame" approach, but does cover thrugh links a
number of aspects of the issues. I has been said before but I think it
is time we started measuing building completions as well as consents -
there were huge differences as some SHAs were treated as "land-banks"
Oops, missed the url:
https://thestandard.org.nz/housing-consents-at-highest-level-since-1974/
Tony
2020-01-16 02:39:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 01:50:05 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with people who
do not put politics before integrity.
By and large you are getting your wish - apart from some media noise
responding to lies, that is exactly what the current government is
doing. They are not doing well in everything, but certainly there is
now more in the pipeline than there has been for a very long time. I
was amused at the comment by Gary Moore : "The political parties say
'I built 10 houses and you only built eight' and that's the level of
conversation that's not healthy," he said."
By and large I am not getting my wish, you have rarely if ever discoursed with
integrity.
Post by Rich80105
It illustrates well that there are many layers of the housing
situation - in relation to social housing which he is most comcerned
about, the current government has increased supply by around 3000
houses; but the prevous Key/English governments overall reduced the
number of houses to meet social housing needs - while also encouraging
increased immigration. Special Housing Areas were thought to be a good
idea, but did not work out well in practice because of difficulties
with financing and also a not particularly effective building market.
We lost trades people at various imes (I remember quite a few leaving
at the time of the Queensland floods, we may lose more with the
fires). Crash is right that no government has handled social housing
well since the neo-liberal changes following Muldoon, but there have
been differences; never more so than following hte last election.
Kiwibuild was a promise whatever you believe. Excuses are rife but the fault is
promises that could never be achieved - disgraceful
Post by Rich80105
The following article is by a left supporter, but does largely take an
analytical rather than "blame" approach, but does cover thrugh links a
number of aspects of the issues. I has been said before but I think it
is time we started measuing building completions as well as consents -
there were huge differences as some SHAs were treated as "land-banks"
Tony
2020-01-16 03:45:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 01:50:05 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with people who
do not put politics before integrity.
By and large you are getting your wish - apart from some media noise
responding to lies, that is exactly what the current government is
doing. They are not doing well in everything, but certainly there is
now more in the pipeline than there has been for a very long time. I
was amused at the comment by Gary Moore : "The political parties say
'I built 10 houses and you only built eight' and that's the level of
conversation that's not healthy," he said."
By and large I am not getting my wish, you have rarely if ever discoursed with
integrity.
Post by Rich80105
It illustrates well that there are many layers of the housing
situation - in relation to social housing which he is most comcerned
about, the current government has increased supply by around 3000
houses; but the prevous Key/English governments overall reduced the
number of houses to meet social housing needs - while also encouraging
increased immigration. Special Housing Areas were thought to be a good
idea, but did not work out well in practice because of difficulties
with financing and also a not particularly effective building market.
We lost trades people at various imes (I remember quite a few leaving
at the time of the Queensland floods, we may lose more with the
fires). Crash is right that no government has handled social housing
well since the neo-liberal changes following Muldoon, but there have
been differences; never more so than following hte last election.
Kiwibuild was a promise whatever you believe. Excuses are rife but the fault is
promises that could never be achieved - disgraceful
Post by Rich80105
The following article is by a left supporter, but does largely take an
analytical rather than "blame" approach, but does cover thrugh links a
number of aspects of the issues. I has been said before but I think it
is time we started measuing building completions as well as consents -
there were huge differences as some SHAs were treated as "land-banks"
Here is the promise.
"Labour’s KiwiBuild programme will build 100,000 high quality, affordable homes
over 10 years, with 50% of them in Auckland. Standalone houses in Auckland will
cost $500,000 to $600,000, with apartments and townhouses under $500,000.
Outside Auckland, houses will range from $300,000 to $500,000". Straight from
their website https://www.labour.org.nz/housing.
Read the English words with care - not a target, not a hope not even a guess
but a promise.
A broken promise.
I can live with a government that fails but I cannot accept governments or
their political supporters lying about clear promises.
This was a promise, one that was not kept.
Rich80105
2020-01-16 04:44:26 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:45:53 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 01:50:05 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with people who
do not put politics before integrity.
By and large you are getting your wish - apart from some media noise
responding to lies, that is exactly what the current government is
doing. They are not doing well in everything, but certainly there is
now more in the pipeline than there has been for a very long time. I
was amused at the comment by Gary Moore : "The political parties say
'I built 10 houses and you only built eight' and that's the level of
conversation that's not healthy," he said."
By and large I am not getting my wish, you have rarely if ever discoursed with
integrity.
Post by Rich80105
It illustrates well that there are many layers of the housing
situation - in relation to social housing which he is most comcerned
about, the current government has increased supply by around 3000
houses; but the prevous Key/English governments overall reduced the
number of houses to meet social housing needs - while also encouraging
increased immigration. Special Housing Areas were thought to be a good
idea, but did not work out well in practice because of difficulties
with financing and also a not particularly effective building market.
We lost trades people at various imes (I remember quite a few leaving
at the time of the Queensland floods, we may lose more with the
fires). Crash is right that no government has handled social housing
well since the neo-liberal changes following Muldoon, but there have
been differences; never more so than following hte last election.
Kiwibuild was a promise whatever you believe. Excuses are rife but the fault is
promises that could never be achieved - disgraceful
Post by Rich80105
The following article is by a left supporter, but does largely take an
analytical rather than "blame" approach, but does cover thrugh links a
number of aspects of the issues. I has been said before but I think it
is time we started measuing building completions as well as consents -
there were huge differences as some SHAs were treated as "land-banks"
Here is the promise.
"Labour’s KiwiBuild programme will build 100,000 high quality, affordable homes
over 10 years, with 50% of them in Auckland. Standalone houses in Auckland will
cost $500,000 to $600,000, with apartments and townhouses under $500,000.
Outside Auckland, houses will range from $300,000 to $500,000". Straight from
their website https://www.labour.org.nz/housing.
Read the English words with care - not a target, not a hope not even a guess
but a promise.
A broken promise.
I can live with a government that fails but I cannot accept governments or
their political supporters lying about clear promises.
This was a promise, one that was not kept.
What a shame then that Labour was not elected - Labour is merely the
largest party in a coal;ition government. Some key elements of that
plan were not possible whether through coalition agreements or a veto
by one of the other parties is unclear. The promise was to start
fixing the housing crisis, and details of a plan were outlined;
whether those details form part of any "promise" is debateable, but
that is trivial compared with having to also cope with demands from
other parties.

As it turns out, elements of the proposed plan have turned out to be
more difficult than was expected, and most targets set will not be
met, but the Lab/Green/NZ1 government have nevertheless made good
progress in 2 years . . .
Tony
2020-01-16 05:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:45:53 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 01:50:05 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with
people
who
do not put politics before integrity.
By and large you are getting your wish - apart from some media noise
responding to lies, that is exactly what the current government is
doing. They are not doing well in everything, but certainly there is
now more in the pipeline than there has been for a very long time. I
was amused at the comment by Gary Moore : "The political parties say
'I built 10 houses and you only built eight' and that's the level of
conversation that's not healthy," he said."
By and large I am not getting my wish, you have rarely if ever discoursed with
integrity.
Post by Rich80105
It illustrates well that there are many layers of the housing
situation - in relation to social housing which he is most comcerned
about, the current government has increased supply by around 3000
houses; but the prevous Key/English governments overall reduced the
number of houses to meet social housing needs - while also encouraging
increased immigration. Special Housing Areas were thought to be a good
idea, but did not work out well in practice because of difficulties
with financing and also a not particularly effective building market.
We lost trades people at various imes (I remember quite a few leaving
at the time of the Queensland floods, we may lose more with the
fires). Crash is right that no government has handled social housing
well since the neo-liberal changes following Muldoon, but there have
been differences; never more so than following hte last election.
Kiwibuild was a promise whatever you believe. Excuses are rife but the fault is
promises that could never be achieved - disgraceful
Post by Rich80105
The following article is by a left supporter, but does largely take an
analytical rather than "blame" approach, but does cover thrugh links a
number of aspects of the issues. I has been said before but I think it
is time we started measuing building completions as well as consents -
there were huge differences as some SHAs were treated as "land-banks"
Here is the promise.
"Labour’s KiwiBuild programme will build 100,000 high quality, affordable homes
over 10 years, with 50% of them in Auckland. Standalone houses in Auckland will
cost $500,000 to $600,000, with apartments and townhouses under $500,000.
Outside Auckland, houses will range from $300,000 to $500,000". Straight from
their website https://www.labour.org.nz/housing.
Read the English words with care - not a target, not a hope not even a guess
but a promise.
A broken promise.
I can live with a government that fails but I cannot accept governments or
their political supporters lying about clear promises.
This was a promise, one that was not kept.
What a shame then that Labour was not elected - Labour is merely the
largest party in a coal;ition government. Some key elements of that
plan were not possible whether through coalition agreements or a veto
by one of the other parties is unclear. The promise was to start
fixing the housing crisis, and details of a plan were outlined;
whether those details form part of any "promise" is debateable, but
that is trivial compared with having to also cope with demands from
other parties.
As it turns out, elements of the proposed plan have turned out to be
more difficult than was expected, and most targets set will not be
met, but the Lab/Green/NZ1 government have nevertheless made good
progress in 2 years . . .
What nonsense (including the sarcasm) they made a promise, and they lead the
government and should be held accountable.
It was up to them to anticipate the difficulties, they failed and broke a
promise (not the only one).
End of story
Crash
2020-01-16 07:05:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:45:53 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 01:50:05 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with people who
do not put politics before integrity.
By and large you are getting your wish - apart from some media noise
responding to lies, that is exactly what the current government is
doing. They are not doing well in everything, but certainly there is
now more in the pipeline than there has been for a very long time. I
was amused at the comment by Gary Moore : "The political parties say
'I built 10 houses and you only built eight' and that's the level of
conversation that's not healthy," he said."
By and large I am not getting my wish, you have rarely if ever discoursed with
integrity.
Post by Rich80105
It illustrates well that there are many layers of the housing
situation - in relation to social housing which he is most comcerned
about, the current government has increased supply by around 3000
houses; but the prevous Key/English governments overall reduced the
number of houses to meet social housing needs - while also encouraging
increased immigration. Special Housing Areas were thought to be a good
idea, but did not work out well in practice because of difficulties
with financing and also a not particularly effective building market.
We lost trades people at various imes (I remember quite a few leaving
at the time of the Queensland floods, we may lose more with the
fires). Crash is right that no government has handled social housing
well since the neo-liberal changes following Muldoon, but there have
been differences; never more so than following hte last election.
Kiwibuild was a promise whatever you believe. Excuses are rife but the fault is
promises that could never be achieved - disgraceful
Post by Rich80105
The following article is by a left supporter, but does largely take an
analytical rather than "blame" approach, but does cover thrugh links a
number of aspects of the issues. I has been said before but I think it
is time we started measuing building completions as well as consents -
there were huge differences as some SHAs were treated as "land-banks"
Here is the promise.
"Labour’s KiwiBuild programme will build 100,000 high quality, affordable homes
over 10 years, with 50% of them in Auckland. Standalone houses in Auckland will
cost $500,000 to $600,000, with apartments and townhouses under $500,000.
Outside Auckland, houses will range from $300,000 to $500,000". Straight from
their website https://www.labour.org.nz/housing.
Read the English words with care - not a target, not a hope not even a guess
but a promise.
A broken promise.
I can live with a government that fails but I cannot accept governments or
their political supporters lying about clear promises.
This was a promise, one that was not kept.
What a shame then that Labour was not elected - Labour is merely the
largest party in a coal;ition government. Some key elements of that
plan were not possible whether through coalition agreements or a veto
by one of the other parties is unclear. The promise was to start
fixing the housing crisis, and details of a plan were outlined;
whether those details form part of any "promise" is debateable, but
that is trivial compared with having to also cope with demands from
other parties.
Rich your post above sets new levels of political bullshit. Kiwibuild
was a Labour Party policy. There was no part of that policy that I
can recall that was obstructed by NZF or the Greens. The failure was
entirely on the part of Labour not doing the research to set realistic
and achievable goals. All of them - including the ten-year goal - are
gone.

Kiwibuild has produced some good results, but the level of achievement
is microscopically small.
Post by Rich80105
As it turns out, elements of the proposed plan have turned out to be
more difficult than was expected, and most targets set will not be
met, but the Lab/Green/NZ1 government have nevertheless made good
progress in 2 years . . .
No they have not. Name any housing issues that have improved during
the term of the current government? You are in a hole on this
particular issue Rich - your only way to stop getting in deeper
trouble is to stop digging.


--
Crash McBash
John Bowes
2020-01-16 23:51:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:45:53 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 01:50:05 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with people who
do not put politics before integrity.
By and large you are getting your wish - apart from some media noise
responding to lies, that is exactly what the current government is
doing. They are not doing well in everything, but certainly there is
now more in the pipeline than there has been for a very long time. I
was amused at the comment by Gary Moore : "The political parties say
'I built 10 houses and you only built eight' and that's the level of
conversation that's not healthy," he said."
By and large I am not getting my wish, you have rarely if ever discoursed with
integrity.
Post by Rich80105
It illustrates well that there are many layers of the housing
situation - in relation to social housing which he is most comcerned
about, the current government has increased supply by around 3000
houses; but the prevous Key/English governments overall reduced the
number of houses to meet social housing needs - while also encouraging
increased immigration. Special Housing Areas were thought to be a good
idea, but did not work out well in practice because of difficulties
with financing and also a not particularly effective building market.
We lost trades people at various imes (I remember quite a few leaving
at the time of the Queensland floods, we may lose more with the
fires). Crash is right that no government has handled social housing
well since the neo-liberal changes following Muldoon, but there have
been differences; never more so than following hte last election.
Kiwibuild was a promise whatever you believe. Excuses are rife but the fault is
promises that could never be achieved - disgraceful
Post by Rich80105
The following article is by a left supporter, but does largely take an
analytical rather than "blame" approach, but does cover thrugh links a
number of aspects of the issues. I has been said before but I think it
is time we started measuing building completions as well as consents -
there were huge differences as some SHAs were treated as "land-banks"
Here is the promise.
"Labour’s KiwiBuild programme will build 100,000 high quality, affordable homes
over 10 years, with 50% of them in Auckland. Standalone houses in Auckland will
cost $500,000 to $600,000, with apartments and townhouses under $500,000.
Outside Auckland, houses will range from $300,000 to $500,000". Straight from
their website https://www.labour.org.nz/housing.
Read the English words with care - not a target, not a hope not even a guess
but a promise.
A broken promise.
I can live with a government that fails but I cannot accept governments or
their political supporters lying about clear promises.
This was a promise, one that was not kept.
What a shame then that Labour was not elected - Labour is merely the
largest party in a coal;ition government. Some key elements of that
plan were not possible whether through coalition agreements or a veto
by one of the other parties is unclear. The promise was to start
fixing the housing crisis, and details of a plan were outlined;
whether those details form part of any "promise" is debateable, but
that is trivial compared with having to also cope with demands from
other parties.
Whether Labour had won the election or had to bribe Winston to get into power is immaterial Rich! The KiwiBuild plan was doomed from the start because Labour had never thought past the outline of the plan! Then they were dumb enough to put a useless mass of protein in charge of it!
Post by Rich80105
As it turns out, elements of the proposed plan have turned out to be
more difficult than was expected, and most targets set will not be
met, but the Lab/Green/NZ1 government have nevertheless made good
progress in 2 years . . .
BULLSHIT! The plan was never thought through! Hell Sweden built over one MILLION houses in NINE years! How? Because they knew what they were about unlike the incompetent fools you worship rich!
Crash
2020-01-15 21:56:57 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 01:50:05 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
Tony I hate to point this out but in politics, lies are an essential
tool-of-trade. Every political party believes it has the only
solution and that a different solution from another party will not
work as well as their solution. This is the cradle of political lies.
We as the voters need to sort out who we believe most.
Post by Tony
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with people who
do not put politics before integrity.
Politics wins elections, not integrity. I am particularly reminded of
New Zealand First - if integrity was important NZF would not ever have
made it into Parliament.

Having said all this I do agree with you in principle. It would be
nice if each political party could set out their plans and for those
plans to include achievement measures.

Labour had a housing plan called Kiwibuild. They set measurable
targets. Unfortunately those targets were no-where near achievable so
the plan is now regarded as a failure. Because of this, political
parties may well consider that learning from this is to eliminate
achievement measures rather than to research credible numbers.


--
Crash McBash
Rich80105
2020-01-15 22:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 01:50:05 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
Tony I hate to point this out but in politics, lies are an essential
tool-of-trade. Every political party believes it has the only
solution and that a different solution from another party will not
work as well as their solution. This is the cradle of political lies.
We as the voters need to sort out who we believe most.
Post by Tony
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with people who
do not put politics before integrity.
Politics wins elections, not integrity. I am particularly reminded of
New Zealand First - if integrity was important NZF would not ever have
made it into Parliament.
Having said all this I do agree with you in principle. It would be
nice if each political party could set out their plans and for those
plans to include achievement measures.
Labour had a housing plan called Kiwibuild. They set measurable
targets. Unfortunately those targets were no-where near achievable so
the plan is now regarded as a failure. Because of this, political
parties may well consider that learning from this is to eliminate
achievement measures rather than to research credible numbers.
John Key was very successful in lowering expectations and making as
few promises as he could. Much of his 'achievements' are now seen as
being down largely by stealth - the reduction in social housing being
one, and the increase in inequality another. I suspect that lack of
promises made the openness of Jacinda Ardern more attractive, but it
carry its gandgers - and Kiwibuild - that was originally to have also
included social housing but poor descriptions left the too ambitious
targets (they were never promises, but that fine distinction doesn't
gel with opposition or media). They stupidly did not admit that they
had it wrong early enough; now that is past they are better accepted.
No government, and perhaps especially a new government, will get
everything right. Currently the government is dampening expectations
for a quick fix for hate speech - essentially there is no quick fix,
but case law does need to move at least a little. This would be an
issue where all parties could be expected to have similar views (or
range of views), but sadly the opposition does not see this as an
opportunity for cooperation.

I hope parties continue to outline objectives, to set themselves
targets, and to be open about failures as well as successes - but that
would be helped by opopsitin parties being similarly honest, which is
back to where this thread started . . .
Tony
2020-01-16 02:37:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 01:50:05 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
Tony I hate to point this out but in politics, lies are an essential
tool-of-trade. Every political party believes it has the only
solution and that a different solution from another party will not
work as well as their solution. This is the cradle of political lies.
We as the voters need to sort out who we believe most.
Post by Tony
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with people who
do not put politics before integrity.
Politics wins elections, not integrity. I am particularly reminded of
New Zealand First - if integrity was important NZF would not ever have
made it into Parliament.
Having said all this I do agree with you in principle. It would be
nice if each political party could set out their plans and for those
plans to include achievement measures.
Labour had a housing plan called Kiwibuild. They set measurable
targets. Unfortunately those targets were no-where near achievable so
the plan is now regarded as a failure. Because of this, political
parties may well consider that learning from this is to eliminate
achievement measures rather than to research credible numbers.
John Key was very successful in lowering expectations and making as
few promises as he could. Much of his 'achievements' are now seen as
being down largely by stealth - the reduction in social housing being
one, and the increase in inequality another. I suspect that lack of
promises made the openness of Jacinda Ardern more attractive
But Jacinda Ardern only pretended to be open, the reality is otherwise and
amply demonstrated on several occasions.
Post by Rich80105
, but it
carry its gandgers - and Kiwibuild - that was originally to have also
included social housing but poor descriptions left the too ambitious
targets (they were never promises, but that fine distinction doesn't
gel with opposition or media). They stupidly did not admit that they
had it wrong early enough; now that is past they are better accepted.
No government, and perhaps especially a new government, will get
everything right. Currently the government is dampening expectations
for a quick fix for hate speech - essentially there is no quick fix,
but case law does need to move at least a little. This would be an
issue where all parties could be expected to have similar views (or
range of views), but sadly the opposition does not see this as an
opportunity for cooperation.
I hope parties continue to outline objectives, to set themselves
targets, and to be open about failures as well as successes - but that
would be helped by opopsitin parties being similarly honest, which is
back to where this thread started . . .
Absolutely wrong, it is for the government to set an example, opposition
parties almost never do.
Crash
2020-01-16 07:11:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 01:50:05 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
Tony I hate to point this out but in politics, lies are an essential
tool-of-trade. Every political party believes it has the only
solution and that a different solution from another party will not
work as well as their solution. This is the cradle of political lies.
We as the voters need to sort out who we believe most.
Post by Tony
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with people who
do not put politics before integrity.
Politics wins elections, not integrity. I am particularly reminded of
New Zealand First - if integrity was important NZF would not ever have
made it into Parliament.
Having said all this I do agree with you in principle. It would be
nice if each political party could set out their plans and for those
plans to include achievement measures.
Labour had a housing plan called Kiwibuild. They set measurable
targets. Unfortunately those targets were no-where near achievable so
the plan is now regarded as a failure. Because of this, political
parties may well consider that learning from this is to eliminate
achievement measures rather than to research credible numbers.
John Key was very successful in lowering expectations and making as
few promises as he could. Much of his 'achievements' are now seen as
being down largely by stealth - the reduction in social housing being
one, and the increase in inequality another. I suspect that lack of
promises made the openness of Jacinda Ardern more attractive, but it
carry its gandgers - and Kiwibuild - that was originally to have also
included social housing but poor descriptions left the too ambitious
targets (they were never promises, but that fine distinction doesn't
gel with opposition or media). They stupidly did not admit that they
had it wrong early enough; now that is past they are better accepted.
No government, and perhaps especially a new government, will get
everything right. Currently the government is dampening expectations
for a quick fix for hate speech - essentially there is no quick fix,
but case law does need to move at least a little. This would be an
issue where all parties could be expected to have similar views (or
range of views), but sadly the opposition does not see this as an
opportunity for cooperation.
I hope parties continue to outline objectives, to set themselves
targets, and to be open about failures as well as successes
Agreed.
Post by Rich80105
- but that
would be helped by opopsitin parties being similarly honest, which is
back to where this thread started . . .
I don't see any relationship between government and opposition parties
on this. Each party sets their policies and achievement goals.
Opposition parties, by definition, are powerless so how they can
affect the goals of the parties in government is a mystery to me.


--
Crash McBash
Rich80105
2020-01-16 08:35:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 01:50:05 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
Tony I hate to point this out but in politics, lies are an essential
tool-of-trade. Every political party believes it has the only
solution and that a different solution from another party will not
work as well as their solution. This is the cradle of political lies.
We as the voters need to sort out who we believe most.
Post by Tony
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with people who
do not put politics before integrity.
Politics wins elections, not integrity. I am particularly reminded of
New Zealand First - if integrity was important NZF would not ever have
made it into Parliament.
Having said all this I do agree with you in principle. It would be
nice if each political party could set out their plans and for those
plans to include achievement measures.
Labour had a housing plan called Kiwibuild. They set measurable
targets. Unfortunately those targets were no-where near achievable so
the plan is now regarded as a failure. Because of this, political
parties may well consider that learning from this is to eliminate
achievement measures rather than to research credible numbers.
John Key was very successful in lowering expectations and making as
few promises as he could. Much of his 'achievements' are now seen as
being down largely by stealth - the reduction in social housing being
one, and the increase in inequality another. I suspect that lack of
promises made the openness of Jacinda Ardern more attractive, but it
carry its gandgers - and Kiwibuild - that was originally to have also
included social housing but poor descriptions left the too ambitious
targets (they were never promises, but that fine distinction doesn't
gel with opposition or media). They stupidly did not admit that they
had it wrong early enough; now that is past they are better accepted.
No government, and perhaps especially a new government, will get
everything right. Currently the government is dampening expectations
for a quick fix for hate speech - essentially there is no quick fix,
but case law does need to move at least a little. This would be an
issue where all parties could be expected to have similar views (or
range of views), but sadly the opposition does not see this as an
opportunity for cooperation.
I hope parties continue to outline objectives, to set themselves
targets, and to be open about failures as well as successes
Agreed.
Post by Rich80105
- but that
would be helped by opposition parties being similarly honest, which is
back to where this thread started . . .
I don't see any relationship between government and opposition parties
on this. Each party sets their policies and achievement goals.
Opposition parties, by definition, are powerless so how they can
affect the goals of the parties in government is a mystery to me.
Al participants in discussions on issues of significance are able to
affect public opinion - including news media, commentators, and
opposition parties. The concept of a "loyal opposition" is not always
well understood, but it is certainly possible for either a government
or opposition to capture the attention of New Zealanders on particular
issues in an attempt to retain or gain votes at the next election.
Tony
2020-01-16 02:34:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 01:50:05 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
You are more tolerant than me Crash, and I think that is self-evident.
I simply despise governments and oppositions that lie.
Tony I hate to point this out but in politics, lies are an essential
tool-of-trade. Every political party believes it has the only
solution and that a different solution from another party will not
work as well as their solution. This is the cradle of political lies.
We as the voters need to sort out who we believe most.
Yes you are right and the truth is not hidden from me. SOme would call me naive
but they are wrong, I prefer principled.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
And I am not referring only to this government.
What is wrong with a government that acknowledges a problem, explains that it
is difficult to fix, does not blame (as an automatic response) the last
government of a different poltical persuasion but puts in place a doable albeit
long term plan? I wish for nothing mora than that and discourse with people who
do not put politics before integrity.
Politics wins elections, not integrity. I am particularly reminded of
New Zealand First - if integrity was important NZF would not ever have
made it into Parliament.
A sad commentary on mankind.
Post by Rich80105
Having said all this I do agree with you in principle. It would be
nice if each political party could set out their plans and for those
plans to include achievement measures.
Labour had a housing plan called Kiwibuild. They set measurable
targets. Unfortunately those targets were no-where near achievable so
the plan is now regarded as a failure. Because of this, political
parties may well consider that learning from this is to eliminate
achievement measures rather than to research credible numbers.
--
Crash McBash
James Christophers
2020-01-15 20:36:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
The problem will remain intractable for as long as government policies continue as they do now with the country perpetually locked into its low-value commodity-based economy.

Meanwhile. from the UK:

"...Governments have for the last 40 years encouraged house price inflation and seen it as a measure of economic prosperity while all other inflation and particularly wage inflation is seen as bad and is discouraged. In terms of the affordability of housing this can only end in one way."

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/grand-challenges/sustainable-cities/our-work/re-thinking-housing/building-more-houses-cannot-solve-housing-crisis
Gordon
2020-01-16 06:20:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:31:40 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118815771/politicians-berated-over-blame-game-in-dealing-with-housing-crisis
Forget the past. Government and just get on with it.
Looking at the article, there is no escaping the fact that some form
of government assistance to those most vulnerable to unaffordable
housing is needed. This requires taxpayer funding so quite properly
the solutions put forward will always be scrutinised. Such is the
nature of taxpayer assistance.
The problem is not the political point scoring but is that fact that
nothing is being seen to be done regardless of who leads the
government. We have had a problem with housing during the term of the
current government, the previous National-led governments, the Labour
governments prior to that and the National governments prior to that.
None of those governments are being seen as being able to provide a
solution that addresses the need. That really is the beginning and
end of it. The political bickering is the price paid for holding
governments accountable and has no direct effect on solution delivery.
The simple fact is no government has been able to deliver a solution
on the scale required to be seen to address the problem.
The issue is that many people are not affected by the housing issue/crisis,
and into to-days world I am right Jack, we have no poltical will to actually
get something done. Espically when the crisis bubbles along on the "correct"
side of okay.

What is needed is more houses, yes? Well Government build some and rent them
out at rates those most in need can afford. Build where there a demand and
they will come. Just start.

Study some history, the 1935 Labour Government built state houses. It
worked. Keep all this market forces, neo liberal crap out of sight and mind
and build houses. Lets do this!
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