Discussion:
We're all in the same waka.
(too old to reply)
Tony
2021-05-27 21:00:34 UTC
Permalink
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
John Bowes
2021-05-27 21:26:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Excellent article as always from Karl!
I always get a giggle when Maori activists go on about colonial oppression. It's obvious they don't understand they descend from colonial oppressors wh had ffar worse practices than their pakeha forebears :)
Rich80105
2021-05-27 23:02:35 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 May 2021 14:26:09 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Excellent article as always from Karl!
I always get a giggle when Maori activists go on about colonial oppression. It's obvious they don't understand they descend from colonial oppressors wh had ffar worse practices than their pakeha forebears :)
Not the point of teh TReaty, John. The government promised certain
things that they would do in the future - Maori have generally
rejected some of the practices of their ancestors, but many claims
cisting the Treaty have been succesful, indicating that our government
has not always met its obligations.
John Bowes
2021-05-28 00:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 14:26:09 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Excellent article as always from Karl!
I always get a giggle when Maori activists go on about colonial oppression. It's obvious they don't understand they descend from colonial oppressors wh had ffar worse practices than their pakeha forebears :)
Not the point of teh TReaty, John. The government promised certain
things that they would do in the future - Maori have generally
rejected some of the practices of their ancestors, but many claims
cisting the Treaty have been succesful, indicating that our government
has not always met its obligations.
My comment has nothing to do with the Treaty Rich! It's just an add on to Karl's excellent article that fucking imbeciles like you claim is racist even though that claim is just another of your stupid, ill informed lies!
Rich80105
2021-05-27 22:59:58 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
not be surprised that it was also published here:

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka

The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary

The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.

Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
John Bowes
2021-05-28 00:07:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Rich is just another fucking imbecilic Socialist shit trying to spread his communist dogma under false colours. Typical of the lying little troll!
George Black
2021-05-28 02:37:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
John Bowes
2021-05-28 02:45:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Only in your dreams mate :)
Tony
2021-05-28 03:23:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
No 'fraid not. Nor will he explain what happened to the Moriori or what exactly
a neo-liberal experiement (sic) is. Nor will he explain what the article has to
do with the Treaty or who these "right" wing mythical beings are in this
country. Nor will or can he explain why he is so bitter about, and offensive
to, people expressing their honestly held views here. After all how dare they
disagree with him, the omnipotent (or impotent?) master of this newsgroup (or
no doubt any forum he pisses over).
Sorry for the sarcasm George, he is just an embarrassement.
Rich80105
2021-05-28 04:52:32 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 May 2021 22:23:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
No 'fraid not. Nor will he explain what happened to the Moriori or what exactly
a neo-liberal experiement (sic) is. Nor will he explain what the article has to
do with the Treaty or who these "right" wing mythical beings are in this
country. Nor will or can he explain why he is so bitter about, and offensive
to, people expressing their honestly held views here. After all how dare they
disagree with him, the omnipotent (or impotent?) master of this newsgroup (or
no doubt any forum he pisses over).
Sorry for the sarcasm George, he is just an embarrassement.
Certainly 1835 was a different world - see for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Independence_of_New_Zealand

Perhaps not quite the image that Karl du Fresne was looking for . . .

For a later incident, perhaps it would be intructive to also look at
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/occupation-pacifist-settlement-at-parihaka

The rights and wrongs of history are interesting, but not necessarily
pertinent to a characterisation of either Maori or Pakeha concerns in
our current age; propaganda fairly crudely used to try to discredit
those who are now concerned over current policies which look to treat
all New Zealanders fairly . . .
John Bowes
2021-05-28 04:58:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 22:23:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
No 'fraid not. Nor will he explain what happened to the Moriori or what exactly
a neo-liberal experiement (sic) is. Nor will he explain what the article has to
do with the Treaty or who these "right" wing mythical beings are in this
country. Nor will or can he explain why he is so bitter about, and offensive
to, people expressing their honestly held views here. After all how dare they
disagree with him, the omnipotent (or impotent?) master of this newsgroup (or
no doubt any forum he pisses over).
Sorry for the sarcasm George, he is just an embarrassement.
Certainly 1835 was a different world - see for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Independence_of_New_Zealand
Perhaps not quite the image that Karl du Fresne was looking for . . .
For a later incident, perhaps it would be intructive to also look at
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/occupation-pacifist-settlement-at-parihaka
Or read this if you want some honesty rather than the travesty of honesty you exhibit so often Rich! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Te_Rauparaha
Post by Rich80105
The rights and wrongs of history are interesting, but not necessarily
pertinent to a characterisation of either Maori or Pakeha concerns in
our current age; propaganda fairly crudely used to try to discredit
those who are now concerned over current policies which look to treat
all New Zealanders fairly . . .
ALL New Zealanders fairly? The ever lying bastards you worship don't understand the meaning of all OR fairly Rich! Hell their support of big business shows them to be nothing but a bunch of hypocrites. Hell Mike King is giving back his honour because this government only ever TALKS about the mental health problem! So stop fucking lying open your eyes and try looking at the REAL world for once in your useless fucking life!
Tony
2021-05-28 05:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 22:23:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
No 'fraid not. Nor will he explain what happened to the Moriori or what exactly
a neo-liberal experiement (sic) is. Nor will he explain what the article has to
do with the Treaty or who these "right" wing mythical beings are in this
country. Nor will or can he explain why he is so bitter about, and offensive
to, people expressing their honestly held views here. After all how dare they
disagree with him, the omnipotent (or impotent?) master of this newsgroup (or
no doubt any forum he pisses over).
Sorry for the sarcasm George, he is just an embarrassement.
Certainly 1835 was a different world - see for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Independence_of_New_Zealand
Perhaps not quite the image that Karl du Fresne was looking for . . .
For a later incident, perhaps it would be intructive to also look at
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/occupation-pacifist-settlement-at-parihaka
The rights and wrongs of history are interesting, but not necessarily
pertinent to a characterisation of either Maori or Pakeha concerns in
our current age; propaganda fairly crudely used to try to discredit
those who are now concerned over current policies which look to treat
all New Zealanders fairly . . .
du Fresne got it right and you immediately went on the defensive.
Get a life. Oh too late!
OK then actually keep on topic.
James Christophers
2021-05-28 06:46:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 22:23:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
No 'fraid not. Nor will he explain what happened to the Moriori or what exactly
a neo-liberal experiement (sic) is. Nor will he explain what the article has to
do with the Treaty or who these "right" wing mythical beings are in this
country. Nor will or can he explain why he is so bitter about, and offensive
to, people expressing their honestly held views here. After all how dare they
disagree with him, the omnipotent (or impotent?) master of this newsgroup (or
no doubt any forum he pisses over).
Sorry for the sarcasm George, he is just an embarrassement.
Certainly 1835 was a different world - see for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Independence_of_New_Zealand
Perhaps not quite the image that Karl du Fresne was looking for . . .
For a later incident, perhaps it would be intructive to also look at
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/occupation-pacifist-settlement-at-parihaka
The rights and wrongs of history are interesting, but not necessarily
pertinent to a characterisation of either Maori or Pakeha concerns in
our current age; propaganda fairly crudely used to try to discredit
those who are now concerned over current policies which look to treat
all New Zealanders fairly . . .
du Fresne got it right and you immediately went on the defensive.
(One notes that a certain "Unknown" unequivocally nails his primary colours to du Fresne's bloggy mast - ref. the Comments section of du Fresne's article.)

Now to cite du Fresne, verbatim:

"It suits 21st century agitators to overlook the fact that they carry the DNA of their supposed colonial oppressors and therefore have inherited their supposedly racist legacy. But if those of us who are descended solely from European colonisers carry the taint of racism, then so do they."

Not in any way a fact, but in my book a false presumption. In fact I would argue that racism is not genetically inherited at all, but is due to handed down lifetime cultural influences, mostly by a continual process of unwitting osmosis leading to perpetually reinforced mores and prejudices.

So, on this one **pivotal** point, du Fresne's thinking is, to me, to be found wanting since he bases his piece on what is, fundamentally, a misperceived and therefore inevitably misconceived proposition. Yes, I did say the peice was skillfully argued and articulated, but it nevertheless fails the quintessential test of rigorous research and analysis backed by intellctual depth and integrity.
Tony
2021-05-28 07:12:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 22:23:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible
and
fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
No 'fraid not. Nor will he explain what happened to the Moriori or what exactly
a neo-liberal experiement (sic) is. Nor will he explain what the article
has
to
do with the Treaty or who these "right" wing mythical beings are in this
country. Nor will or can he explain why he is so bitter about, and offensive
to, people expressing their honestly held views here. After all how dare they
disagree with him, the omnipotent (or impotent?) master of this newsgroup (or
no doubt any forum he pisses over).
Sorry for the sarcasm George, he is just an embarrassement.
Certainly 1835 was a different world - see for example
Post by Tony
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Independence_of_New_Zealand
Perhaps not quite the image that Karl du Fresne was looking for . . .
For a later incident, perhaps it would be intructive to also look at
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/occupation-pacifist-settlement-at-parihaka
The rights and wrongs of history are interesting, but not necessarily
pertinent to a characterisation of either Maori or Pakeha concerns in
our current age; propaganda fairly crudely used to try to discredit
those who are now concerned over current policies which look to treat
all New Zealanders fairly . . .
du Fresne got it right and you immediately went on the defensive.
(One notes that a certain "Unknown" unequivocally nails his primary colours to
du Fresne's bloggy mast - ref. the Comments section of du Fresne's article.)
"It suits 21st century agitators to overlook the fact that they carry the DNA
of their supposed colonial oppressors and therefore have inherited their
supposedly racist legacy. But if those of us who are descended solely from
European colonisers carry the taint of racism, then so do they."
Not in any way a fact, but in my book a false presumption. In fact I would
argue that racism is not genetically inherited at all, but is due to handed
down lifetime cultural influences, mostly by a continual process of unwitting
osmosis leading to perpetually reinforced mores and prejudices.
So, on this one **pivotal** point, du Fresne's thinking is, to me, to be found
wanting since he bases his piece on what is, fundamentally, a misperceived and
therefore inevitably misconceived proposition. Yes, I did say the peice was
skillfully argued and articulated, but it nevertheless fails the quintessential
test of rigorous research and analysis backed by intellctual depth and
integrity.
To you perhaps, but I did offer it without comment.
Do I agree with it? Largely but with reservations. Rich on the other hand
condemns it without any intelligent debate as usual.
James Christophers
2021-05-28 22:56:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 22:23:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du
Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible
and
fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
No 'fraid not. Nor will he explain what happened to the Moriori or what exactly
a neo-liberal experiement (sic) is. Nor will he explain what the article
has
to
do with the Treaty or who these "right" wing mythical beings are in this
country. Nor will or can he explain why he is so bitter about, and offensive
to, people expressing their honestly held views here. After all how dare they
disagree with him, the omnipotent (or impotent?) master of this newsgroup (or
no doubt any forum he pisses over).
Sorry for the sarcasm George, he is just an embarrassement.
Certainly 1835 was a different world - see for example
Post by Tony
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Independence_of_New_Zealand
Perhaps not quite the image that Karl du Fresne was looking for . . .
For a later incident, perhaps it would be intructive to also look at
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/occupation-pacifist-settlement-at-parihaka
The rights and wrongs of history are interesting, but not necessarily
pertinent to a characterisation of either Maori or Pakeha concerns in
our current age; propaganda fairly crudely used to try to discredit
those who are now concerned over current policies which look to treat
all New Zealanders fairly . . .
du Fresne got it right and you immediately went on the defensive.
(One notes that a certain "Unknown" unequivocally nails his primary colours to
du Fresne's bloggy mast - ref. the Comments section of du Fresne's article.)
"It suits 21st century agitators to overlook the fact that they carry the DNA
of their supposed colonial oppressors and therefore have inherited their
supposedly racist legacy. But if those of us who are descended solely from
European colonisers carry the taint of racism, then so do they."
Not in any way a fact, but in my book a false presumption. In fact I would
argue that racism is not genetically inherited at all, but is due to handed
down lifetime cultural influences, mostly by a continual process of unwitting
osmosis leading to perpetually reinforced mores and prejudices.
So, on this one **pivotal** point, du Fresne's thinking is, to me, to be found
wanting since he bases his piece on what is, fundamentally, a misperceived and
therefore inevitably misconceived proposition. Yes, I did say the peice was
skillfully argued and articulated, but it nevertheless fails the quintessential
test of rigorous research and analysis backed by intellctual depth and
integrity.
To you perhaps, but I did offer it without comment.
Do I agree with it? Largely but with reservations. Rich on the other hand
condemns it without any intelligent debate as usual.
No question in my mind that du Fresne's argument is well put together. It certainly gives pause. But what I'm trying to put across is that, when approaching such a divisive subject as race and the prejudices and preconceptions that race-based topics inevitably give rise to, it pays to make absolutely sure that whatever presumptions are made are also 100% watertight, placing them beyond any possible challenging.

This is where a journalist/historian like Sir Simon Jenkins seldom if ever puts a foot wrong, this being the critical distinction that separates journalism's sheep from its goats. IOW, it is this one blemish - and it is a significant blemish at that - which from the reader's perspective both devalues and disappoints.
Gordon
2021-05-29 02:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Certainly 1835 was a different world - see for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Independence_of_New_Zealand
Perhaps not quite the image that Karl du Fresne was looking for . . .
For a later incident, perhaps it would be intructive to also look at
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/occupation-pacifist-settlement-at-parihaka
The rights and wrongs of history are interesting,
To me history is netural. It is a record of what happened and the outcome.
Sure the actions of the people can be viewed as not okay, or worse if they
were done to-day.

History gives an insight of how we got to where we are to-day.

There can discussion about why the decisions were made, along with
acknowledging that there are areas which are not crystal clear and there
maybe differing viewpoints in these areas.
James Christophers
2021-05-29 02:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Certainly 1835 was a different world - see for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Independence_of_New_Zealand
Perhaps not quite the image that Karl du Fresne was looking for . . .
For a later incident, perhaps it would be intructive to also look at
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/occupation-pacifist-settlement-at-parihaka
The rights and wrongs of history are interesting,
To me history is netural. It is a record of what happened and the outcome.
Sure the actions of the people can be viewed as not okay, or worse if they
were done to-day.
History gives an insight of how we got to where we are to-day.
Further to which, I understand New Zealand history will be compulsory in all schools by 2022. Not so sure about **all* schools, but the news prompts the obvious question:

Since a nation cannot begin to know or understand its own culture without knowing its own history, why has New Zealand history not been compulsorily included in New Zealand's educational curriculum until now?
John Bowes
2021-05-29 03:21:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Certainly 1835 was a different world - see for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Independence_of_New_Zealand
Perhaps not quite the image that Karl du Fresne was looking for . . .
For a later incident, perhaps it would be intructive to also look at
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/occupation-pacifist-settlement-at-parihaka
The rights and wrongs of history are interesting,
To me history is netural. It is a record of what happened and the outcome.
Sure the actions of the people can be viewed as not okay, or worse if they
were done to-day.
History gives an insight of how we got to where we are to-day.
Since a nation cannot begin to know or understand its own culture without knowing its own history, why has New Zealand history not been compulsorily included in New Zealand's educational curriculum until now?
The problem with the new curriculum is it's not being recommended that ALL our history is to be taught. Just selected bits.
James Christophers
2021-05-29 03:21:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Certainly 1835 was a different world - see for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Independence_of_New_Zealand
Perhaps not quite the image that Karl du Fresne was looking for . . .
For a later incident, perhaps it would be intructive to also look at
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/occupation-pacifist-settlement-at-parihaka
The rights and wrongs of history are interesting,
To me history is netural. It is a record of what happened and the outcome.
Sure the actions of the people can be viewed as not okay, or worse if they
were done to-day.
History gives an insight of how we got to where we are to-day.
Since a nation cannot begin to know or understand its own culture without knowing its own history, why has New Zealand history not been compulsorily included in New Zealand's educational curriculum until now?
As if to further augment this topic, this timely piece just in from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/28/republicans-trying-rewrite-history-capitol-attack
Rich80105
2021-05-29 05:19:06 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 28 May 2021 19:36:44 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Certainly 1835 was a different world - see for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Independence_of_New_Zealand
Perhaps not quite the image that Karl du Fresne was looking for . . .
For a later incident, perhaps it would be intructive to also look at
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/occupation-pacifist-settlement-at-parihaka
The rights and wrongs of history are interesting,
To me history is netural. It is a record of what happened and the outcome.
Sure the actions of the people can be viewed as not okay, or worse if they
were done to-day.
History gives an insight of how we got to where we are to-day.
Since a nation cannot begin to know or understand its own culture without knowing its own history, why has New Zealand history not been compulsorily included in New Zealand's educational curriculum until now?
I don't think it has been specifically excluded in the past, and
certainly there has always been some New Zealand History taught; it is
more a question about what has been taught and how much time it was
given. The book by Michael King carried a different story than had
many previous books, particularly those written for primary and
secondary schools - it cam after a period of concentrated research
into our colonial history arising from Treaty claims. The concentrated
historical research in relation to relatively recent claims made it
clear that previous 'settlements' had in some cases seriously
understated the case for damages, and that previous histories had to
at least some extent been written 'by the victors', giving a somewhat
biassed view of various conflicts.

Then there is the issue of how much can be shoe-horned into a
curriculum - we went through a period of one government wanting a
narrower focus to education, concentrating on the 3 R's and work
skills, and lessening time spent on a broad understanding of society
and critical skills to research and form independent conclusions.
Mixed with this has been the move to create more subjects at level 1
splitting the old "Social Studies" subject for School Certificate
which encompassed parts of history, geography and small elements of
economiics, sociology and anthropology.
Predictably there will be calls for the new history syllabus to
include many groups, including the Chinese (from the mid-1800s) as
well as other groups in later years such as Pasifika, European (eg
Dutch, Polish and Italian - following WW2, and possibly even wealthy
bolt-holers such as Peter Thiel in recent years. Getting a good
balance may not be easy . . .
John Bowes
2021-05-29 03:19:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Certainly 1835 was a different world - see for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Independence_of_New_Zealand
Perhaps not quite the image that Karl du Fresne was looking for . . .
For a later incident, perhaps it would be intructive to also look at
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/occupation-pacifist-settlement-at-parihaka
The rights and wrongs of history are interesting,
To me history is netural. It is a record of what happened and the outcome.
Sure the actions of the people can be viewed as not okay, or worse if they
were done to-day.
History gives an insight of how we got to where we are to-day.
There can discussion about why the decisions were made, along with
acknowledging that there are areas which are not crystal clear and there
maybe differing viewpoints in these areas.
We should remember history, learn from it and do our best not to repeat it. Constant harping on bad things that happened achieve nothing and it would be better if those who do did something to make life better rather than whine about how hard done by they are. We are all responsible for our own actions and being tarred with the same brush as our ancestors is just stupid and non productive!
George Black
2021-05-28 19:54:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
No 'fraid not. Nor will he explain what happened to the Moriori or what exactly
a neo-liberal experiement (sic) is. Nor will he explain what the article has to
do with the Treaty or who these "right" wing mythical beings are in this
country. Nor will or can he explain why he is so bitter about, and offensive
to, people expressing their honestly held views here. After all how dare they
disagree with him, the omnipotent (or impotent?) master of this newsgroup (or
no doubt any forum he pisses over).
Sorry for the sarcasm George, he is just an embarrassement.
Okay then we'll pump it up for him.
The events of the Musket Wars.
How could a supposed civilized people overlook that that was a nono?
Rich80105
2021-05-28 23:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Black
Post by Tony
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
No 'fraid not. Nor will he explain what happened to the Moriori or what exactly
a neo-liberal experiement (sic) is. Nor will he explain what the article has to
do with the Treaty or who these "right" wing mythical beings are in this
country. Nor will or can he explain why he is so bitter about, and offensive
to, people expressing their honestly held views here. After all how dare they
disagree with him, the omnipotent (or impotent?) master of this newsgroup (or
no doubt any forum he pisses over).
Sorry for the sarcasm George, he is just an embarrassement.
Okay then we'll pump it up for him.
The events of the Musket Wars.
How could a supposed civilized people overlook that that was a nono?
Standard British colonialism - as demonstrated in many places around
the world.
John Bowes
2021-05-29 00:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Tony
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
No 'fraid not. Nor will he explain what happened to the Moriori or what exactly
a neo-liberal experiement (sic) is. Nor will he explain what the article has to
do with the Treaty or who these "right" wing mythical beings are in this
country. Nor will or can he explain why he is so bitter about, and offensive
to, people expressing their honestly held views here. After all how dare they
disagree with him, the omnipotent (or impotent?) master of this newsgroup (or
no doubt any forum he pisses over).
Sorry for the sarcasm George, he is just an embarrassement.
Okay then we'll pump it up for him.
The events of the Musket Wars.
How could a supposed civilized people overlook that that was a nono?
Standard British colonialism - as demonstrated in many places around
the world.
Don't you mean standard colonialism practice rather than the standard native colonialism practice of races like Zulu, Maori, Celts, Mongols, Arabs and every other race in the world?
George Black
2021-05-29 00:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Tony
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
No 'fraid not. Nor will he explain what happened to the Moriori or what exactly
a neo-liberal experiement (sic) is. Nor will he explain what the article has to
do with the Treaty or who these "right" wing mythical beings are in this
country. Nor will or can he explain why he is so bitter about, and offensive
to, people expressing their honestly held views here. After all how dare they
disagree with him, the omnipotent (or impotent?) master of this newsgroup (or
no doubt any forum he pisses over).
Sorry for the sarcasm George, he is just an embarrassement.
Okay then we'll pump it up for him.
The events of the Musket Wars.
How could a supposed civilized people overlook that that was a nono?
Standard British colonialism - as demonstrated in many places around
the world.
Don't you mean standard colonialism practice rather than the standard native colonialism practice of races like Zulu, Maori, Celts, Mongols, Arabs and every other race in the world?
The Musket wars (so called) was an Maori inter tribal war.
Doesn't he know anything of our history ?????????
John Bowes
2021-05-29 03:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Black
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Tony
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du
Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and
fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
No 'fraid not. Nor will he explain what happened to the Moriori or what exactly
a neo-liberal experiement (sic) is. Nor will he explain what the article has to
do with the Treaty or who these "right" wing mythical beings are in this
country. Nor will or can he explain why he is so bitter about, and offensive
to, people expressing their honestly held views here. After all how dare they
disagree with him, the omnipotent (or impotent?) master of this newsgroup (or
no doubt any forum he pisses over).
Sorry for the sarcasm George, he is just an embarrassement.
Okay then we'll pump it up for him.
The events of the Musket Wars.
How could a supposed civilized people overlook that that was a nono?
Standard British colonialism - as demonstrated in many places around
the world.
Don't you mean standard colonialism practice rather than the standard native colonialism practice of races like Zulu, Maori, Celts, Mongols, Arabs and every other race in the world?
The Musket wars (so called) was an Maori inter tribal war.
Doesn't he know anything of our history ?????????
Hell the fucking imbecile doesn't know anything of history George. Typical bloody lefty with it's head so far up it's arse all it eats and talks is shit!
George Black
2021-05-29 19:59:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by George Black
The Musket wars (so called) was an Maori inter tribal war.
Doesn't he know anything of our history ?????????
Hell the fucking imbecile doesn't know anything of history George. Typical bloody lefty with it's head so far up it's arse all it eats and talks is shit!
Just realised I've been here since the Deja News days.
Now thats becoming historical :)
James Christophers
2021-05-31 03:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Tony
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du
Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and
fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
No 'fraid not. Nor will he explain what happened to the Moriori or what exactly
a neo-liberal experiement (sic) is. Nor will he explain what the article has to
do with the Treaty or who these "right" wing mythical beings are in this
country. Nor will or can he explain why he is so bitter about, and offensive
to, people expressing their honestly held views here. After all how dare they
disagree with him, the omnipotent (or impotent?) master of this newsgroup (or
no doubt any forum he pisses over).
Sorry for the sarcasm George, he is just an embarrassement.
Okay then we'll pump it up for him.
The events of the Musket Wars.
How could a supposed civilized people overlook that that was a nono?
Standard British colonialism - as demonstrated in many places around
the world.
Don't you mean standard colonialism practice rather than the standard native colonialism practice of races like Zulu, Maori, Celts, Mongols, Arabs and every other race in the world?
No I don't. Colonialism is characterised as one kind of cultural and governmental system introducing itself into another alien one, and either by force or assimilation - or both - systematically coming ultimately to dominate and control it.
Gordon
2021-05-29 01:53:09 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Okay then we'll pump it up for him.
The events of the Musket Wars.
How could a supposed civilized people overlook that that was a nono?
Standard British colonialism - as demonstrated in many places around
the world.
Right here we have an issue. What is the difference between colonialism and
a desire to expand your empire/territory? Not a great deal.

Anyhow the Maori tribes were keen to their territory and went on raids to
conquer a tribe or two. Still the Romans, and others where doing this 2000
odd years ago.

Britian, and other countries had a period of colonisation and it was
"fashionable" at the time. It was a period in history.
Tony
2021-05-29 03:59:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
[snip]
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Okay then we'll pump it up for him.
The events of the Musket Wars.
How could a supposed civilized people overlook that that was a nono?
Standard British colonialism - as demonstrated in many places around
the world.
Right here we have an issue. What is the difference between colonialism and
a desire to expand your empire/territory? Not a great deal.
Anyhow the Maori tribes were keen to their territory and went on raids to
conquer a tribe or two. Still the Romans, and others where doing this 2000
odd years ago.
Britian, and other countries had a period of colonisation and it was
"fashionable" at the time. It was a period in history.
Yes. But what is not mentioned is that colonialisation was not just by the
British
How about the French, Dutch, Russians Spanish, Portuguese and the list goes on.
James Christophers
2021-05-29 06:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
[snip]
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Okay then we'll pump it up for him.
The events of the Musket Wars.
How could a supposed civilized people overlook that that was a nono?
Standard British colonialism - as demonstrated in many places around
the world.
Right here we have an issue. What is the difference between colonialism and
a desire to expand your empire/territory? Not a great deal.
The difference is that it is one thing to own an overseas territory but quite another to colonise it.


The US has expanded its global influence largely through its military dominance and cultural influences. But it has not colonised in the same manner that the European nations have over the course of history.
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Anyhow the Maori tribes were keen to their territory and went on raids to
conquer a tribe or two. Still the Romans, and others where doing this 2000
odd years ago.
Britian, and other countries had a period of colonisation and it was
"fashionable" at the time. It was a period in history.
Yes. But what is not mentioned is that colonialisation was not just by the
British.
The topic deals with British colonisation of what had essentially been a Maori-only country.
Post by Tony
How about the French, Dutch, Russians Spanish, Portuguese and the list goes on.
Again, these can be addressed either here and now or in a separate thread, but they will not be directly germane to the topic in hand. Except to say that, overall, when it came to European colonalisation, the colonised were left with a poorer deal from any of the alternative countries you mention.

Few of us can ever even begin to grasp the mixed experiences and long-term effects of a lifetime of colonial domination, but it was Ghandi who probably expressed it best when speaking privately to the British viceroy and others present shortly before the they left India to her own devices in 1947":

"We would rather rule ourselves badly than be ruled well by you."

Even so, the British bequeathed to India their own typical administrative style and systems that live on to this day; and you'll still find a (sometimes exasperating) punctilliousness about the older Indian clerk when it comes to formal paperwork.
John Bowes
2021-05-29 23:05:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
[snip]
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Okay then we'll pump it up for him.
The events of the Musket Wars.
How could a supposed civilized people overlook that that was a nono?
Standard British colonialism - as demonstrated in many places around
the world.
Right here we have an issue. What is the difference between colonialism and
a desire to expand your empire/territory? Not a great deal.
Anyhow the Maori tribes were keen to their territory and went on raids to
conquer a tribe or two. Still the Romans, and others where doing this 2000
odd years ago.
Britian, and other countries had a period of colonisation and it was
"fashionable" at the time. It was a period in history.
Yes. But what is not mentioned is that colonialisation was not just by the
British
How about the French, Dutch, Russians Spanish, Portuguese and the list goes on.
Hell Maori PICKED the British in preference to the others!
Rich80105
2021-05-28 04:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
Tony
2021-05-28 04:08:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
You are so funny, talking to someone who is not listening to you.
Keep it up, we love it.
Rich80105
2021-05-28 04:56:38 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 May 2021 23:08:57 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
You are so funny, talking to someone who is not listening to you.
Keep it up, we love it.
You have carefully not listened for a very long time, Tony - but
perhaps you could try and explain just what relevance you think an
incident from 186 years ago has to us now . . .
John Bowes
2021-05-28 05:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 23:08:57 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
You are so funny, talking to someone who is not listening to you.
Keep it up, we love it.
<off topic garbage from a blind imbecile snipped>
btw Rich YOU NEVER listen or for that matter look at the real world. Your reaction to some one who's telling the truth makes that fucking obvious to all except a nasty little communist cunt like you!
Tony
2021-05-28 05:03:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 23:08:57 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible
and
fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
You are so funny, talking to someone who is not listening to you.
Keep it up, we love it.
You have carefully not listened for a very long time, Tony - but
perhaps you could try and explain just what relevance you think an
incident from 186 years ago has to us now . . .
Which incident is that?
And can you debate without abuse? No! clearly not.
John Bowes
2021-05-28 07:37:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 23:08:57 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible
and
fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
You are so funny, talking to someone who is not listening to you.
Keep it up, we love it.
You have carefully not listened for a very long time, Tony - but
perhaps you could try and explain just what relevance you think an
incident from 186 years ago has to us now . . .
Which incident is that?
And can you debate without abuse? No! clearly not.
I think he's talking about Te Rauparaha committing genocide on the Chatham Islands tony. but when it comes to Rich you can never be sure if he's replying to someone or just listening to the little voices in his head. If it's Te Rauparaha it has a lot of relevence to what happened after the signing of the Treaty and nothing to do with anything Rich has posted in the last decade or so.
James Christophers
2021-05-28 05:53:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
You are so funny, talking to someone who is not listening to you.
Keep it up, we love it.
Whereas you acting as bypass conduit deliver Rich's message to George, whether he heeds it or not.
Tony
2021-05-28 07:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible
and
fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
You are so funny, talking to someone who is not listening to you.
Keep it up, we love it.
Whereas you acting as bypass conduit deliver Rich's message to George, whether
he heeds it or not.
Yes why not?
George Black
2021-05-28 20:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by James Christophers
Whereas you acting as bypass conduit deliver Rich's message to George, whether
he heeds it or not.
Yes why not?
Well, I need a laugh every so often
John Bowes
2021-05-28 04:53:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
What a desperate effort to expose the truth about Rich by Rich. You don't have to convince us how bloody stupid you are Rich we already know your an imbecile and tirades like this won't change our opinions of what a stupid little man (?) you are! Fancy accusing Te Rauparaha and Ngati Toa of being capitalists. He was just an ignorant tyrant behaving much like you!
Rich80105
2021-05-28 05:07:13 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 May 2021 21:53:33 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 27 May 2021 16:00:34 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
Except for those three words . . . the article is indeedcleverly
written for its audience, and I am not surprised that you believe its
casual racism and bias are worth spreading - and I am sure you will
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/guest-column-by-karl-du-fresne-we-re-all-in-the-same-waka
The premise of the first few paragraphs is that self-identification
should always acknowledge mixed descent - while no recognising that
many of mixed descent self-identify as pakeha to avoid inherent racism
such as he shows. He casually equates DNA from mixed sources with a
presumption of equality with respect to culture - he sees those that
identify as Maori as disowning their pakeha heritage. It is all
one-sided, a biassed far-right diatribe against concepts of diversity
that the author does not share. The subtle dig at historians is
consistent with the distrust of 'lefty'academics - ignoring that we
now know a lot more about treaty breaches because of the work done by
many historians working for both sides of treaty appeals - that
anti-intellectualism that is waved as a sign of solidarity with those
that need no evidence to know that they are "Right" and who actively
avoid evidence to the contrary
The article appears to past wrongs by pretending that there were more
advantages - like pretending that the dawn raids were OK because the
people being raided had earned money from the jobs they had held . . .
More particularly however it ignores the reality of the results of the
recent 30 years of the 'neo-liberal experiement"which has led to
historically high inequality, with Maori and some other monority
groups being particular hard hit - in effect the policies of those
years may well have been in themselves a breach of the Treaty of
Waitangi, with only small moves to offset these in the periods of
Labour coalition governments - no wonder his columns are lauded by
Basset, Brash and Hide.
Thanks for posting this example of quite clever propaganda, Tony.
There are many wakas in our country; some we do generally share; our
Covid response and willingness to tolerate lockdowns and care around
our borders was only resisted by a very small number of extremists;
and those that have spoken against it are seeing polling reflect the
general rejection of putting trade and profit before lives. That does
not mean we agree on all issues - and the inherent racism of du Resne
gives a good example of an area where their are many different wakas -
yuou may well be in his waka but he is not in mine.
There is nothing racist about the article. Your persistent hatred of du Fresne
is showing, indeed your persistent hatred of anything that is sensible and fair
is legend.
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
What a desperate effort to expose the truth about Rich by Rich. You don't have to convince us how bloody stupid you are Rich we already know your an imbecile and tirades like this won't change our opinions of what a stupid little man (?) you are! Fancy accusing Te Rauparaha and Ngati Toa of being capitalists. He was just an ignorant tyrant behaving much like you!
So what relevance does the reference have to the culture of today? Why
was this incident invoked by Karl du Fresne? Do you think it sheds any
light on why some Maori have concerns about difficulties by the
poorest in our community these days?
BR
2021-05-28 06:48:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
Ok, so you believe that the 19th century invasion of the Chathams and
the genocide that followed shares some level of moral equivalence with
the principles of freedom of exchange.

Is that correct?

Bill.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
John Bowes
2021-05-28 07:39:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
Ok, so you believe that the 19th century invasion of the Chathams and
the genocide that followed shares some level of moral equivalence with
the principles of freedom of exchange.
Is that correct?
Bill.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
It's Rich. He believes Capitalism is evil and only socialism/communism/marxism create wealth and provides work that improves an economy. Typical of him and his glorious, lying leader...
Rich80105
2021-05-28 09:41:04 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 28 May 2021 00:39:04 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by BR
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
Ok, so you believe that the 19th century invasion of the Chathams and
the genocide that followed shares some level of moral equivalence with
the principles of freedom of exchange.
Is that correct?
Bill.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
It's Rich. He believes Capitalism is evil and only socialism/communism/marxism create wealth and provides work that improves an economy.
What nonsense
Post by John Bowes
Typical of him and his glorious, lying leader...
John Bowes
2021-05-28 12:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 28 May 2021 00:39:04 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by BR
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
Ok, so you believe that the 19th century invasion of the Chathams and
the genocide that followed shares some level of moral equivalence with
the principles of freedom of exchange.
Is that correct?
Bill.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
It's Rich. He believes Capitalism is evil and only socialism/communism/marxism create wealth and provides work that improves an economy.
What nonsense
No Rich. Supported by your persistence in making out that capitalism is a political dogma rather than as Bill said 'the principles pf freedom of exchange'. Very few so called capitalists fit your jaundiced and stupid belief that they're all corporate raiders. Unlike your loved socialism it's been responsible for far less misery and death and you know it!
Rich80105
2021-05-28 22:54:27 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 28 May 2021 05:25:48 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 28 May 2021 00:39:04 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by BR
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
Ok, so you believe that the 19th century invasion of the Chathams and
the genocide that followed shares some level of moral equivalence with
the principles of freedom of exchange.
Is that correct?
Bill.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
It's Rich. He believes Capitalism is evil and only socialism/communism/marxism create wealth and provides work that improves an economy.
What nonsense
No Rich. Supported by your persistence in making out that capitalism is a political dogma rather than as Bill said 'the principles pf freedom of exchange'. Very few so called capitalists fit your jaundiced and stupid belief that they're all corporate raiders. Unlike your loved socialism it's been responsible for far less misery and death and you know it!
We has exchange controls under Holyoake and Muldoon - it was a Labour
government that removed them, and they have not been put back in
place. Capitalism is far more than freedom of exchange.
John Bowes
2021-05-29 00:05:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 28 May 2021 05:25:48 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 28 May 2021 00:39:04 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by BR
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered coporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
Ok, so you believe that the 19th century invasion of the Chathams and
the genocide that followed shares some level of moral equivalence with
the principles of freedom of exchange.
Is that correct?
Bill.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
It's Rich. He believes Capitalism is evil and only socialism/communism/marxism create wealth and provides work that improves an economy.
What nonsense
No Rich. Supported by your persistence in making out that capitalism is a political dogma rather than as Bill said 'the principles pf freedom of exchange'. Very few so called capitalists fit your jaundiced and stupid belief that they're all corporate raiders. Unlike your loved socialism it's been responsible for far less misery and death and you know it!
We has exchange controls under Holyoake and Muldoon - it was a Labour
government that removed them, and they have not been put back in
place. Capitalism is far more than freedom of exchange.
What the fuck do exchange protocols have to do with your attempt to divert the subject under discussion rich?
Rich80105
2021-05-28 09:39:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Is rich going to explain what happened to the peaceful people of the
Chatham Island ?????
Pure capitalism, George old chap - we do it in a bit more civilised
way these days, but you may be reminded of what unhindered corporate
raiders could do before there were modern rules. The National Party
would be proud of the winners!
Ok, so you believe that the 19th century invasion of the Chathams and
the genocide that followed shares some level of moral equivalence with
the principles of freedom of exchange.
What makes you think that the principles of freedom of exchange have
anything to do with modern capitalism and unhindered corporate
raiders?
Post by BR
Is that correct?
Bill.
BR
2021-05-28 19:16:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
What makes you think that the principles of freedom of exchange have
anything to do with modern capitalism and unhindered corporate
raiders?
What is an "unhindered corporate raider"?

Bill.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Rich80105
2021-05-28 23:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR
Post by Rich80105
What makes you think that the principles of freedom of exchange have
anything to do with modern capitalism and unhindered corporate
raiders?
What is an "unhindered corporate raider"?
Bill.
That;s what indiscriminate deleting from a thread does - look back and
think of conflict in the Chatham Islands many years ago.
BR
2021-05-30 17:13:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by BR
Post by Rich80105
What makes you think that the principles of freedom of exchange have
anything to do with modern capitalism and unhindered corporate
raiders?
What is an "unhindered corporate raider"?
Bill.
That;s what indiscriminate deleting from a thread does - look back and
think of conflict in the Chatham Islands many years ago.
Are you suggesting a moral equivalence between genocide and "modern
capitalism"?

Bill.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
John Bowes
2021-05-30 22:02:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR
Post by Rich80105
Post by BR
Post by Rich80105
What makes you think that the principles of freedom of exchange have
anything to do with modern capitalism and unhindered corporate
raiders?
What is an "unhindered corporate raider"?
Bill.
That;s what indiscriminate deleting from a thread does - look back and
think of conflict in the Chatham Islands many years ago.
Are you suggesting a moral equivalence between genocide and "modern
capitalism"?
Bill.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Rich being your typical imbecilic Marxist he can't help but do it Bill. It's what having no morals or ethics does for him.
James Christophers
2021-05-31 02:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR
Post by Rich80105
What makes you think that the principles of freedom of exchange have
anything to do with modern capitalism and unhindered corporate
raiders?
What is an "unhindered corporate raider"?
One might justifiably apply the term to the 2008 GFC where a tiny number of already unimaginably wealthy corporate raider/fraudsters of every sordid description conspired to enrich themselves at the expense of the vast majority of the world's population. So how did that work out, Bill?

That's right - state-sponsored socialism, **alone** and at its most ruggedly determined, bailed out the world's financial systems, and not one corporate fraudster/raider went to jail. Meanwhile, beneficiary mums who had ticked the wrong box on their claim form served time behind bars, marking them as criminals for their petty misdemeanour - this, if you please, while those same corporate fraudster/raiders awarded themselves evern more monstrous bonuses and share options as reward for the the untold damage they had done, **and for which you, Bill, are still paying**, did you but realise it.
James Christophers
2021-05-28 00:54:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
du Fresne's piece is skillfully argued and articulated.

Thus New Zealand's preoccupations and insecurities over its perpetually unresolved "cultural identity". These will forever remain intractable and unresolved, and the same divisiveness will continue, for as long as:

1. One small, 100% mixed-race sector of the population continues to prioritise its own claimed exceptionlisms whenever it reckons there is political and socio-economic advantage to be gained by doing so.

2. Successive governments of whatever stripe persist in kneeling to this 100% mixed-race minority as cowering proxies for their long-gone forebears whose sins, it seems, can never be atoned for and finally expiated for all time.
Tony
2021-05-28 01:42:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
du Fresne's piece is skillfully argued and articulated.
Thus New Zealand's preoccupations and insecurities over its perpetually
unresolved "cultural identity". These will forever remain intractable and
1. One small, 100% mixed-race sector of the population continues to prioritise
its own claimed exceptionlisms whenever it reckons there is political and
socio-economic advantage to be gained by doing so.
2. Successive governments of whatever stripe persist in kneeling to this 100%
mixed-race minority as cowering proxies for their long-gone forebears whose
sins, it seems, can never be atoned for and finally expiated for all time.
Absolutely right. However I have some hope that we will move on but it will not
be in my lifetime.
It would be terrific if we all boarded the same waka.
James Christophers
2021-05-28 01:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
du Fresne's piece is skillfully argued and articulated.
Thus New Zealand's preoccupations and insecurities over its perpetually
unresolved "cultural identity". These will forever remain intractable and
1. One small, 100% mixed-race sector of the population continues to prioritise
its own claimed exceptionlisms whenever it reckons there is political and
socio-economic advantage to be gained by doing so.
2. Successive governments of whatever stripe persist in kneeling to this 100%
mixed-race minority as cowering proxies for their long-gone forebears whose
sins, it seems, can never be atoned for and finally expiated for all time.
Absolutely right. However I have some hope that we will move on but it will not
be in my lifetime.
It would be terrific if we all boarded the same waka.
By 'waka', you presumably mean "Maori Exceptionalism" is the best of all options?
Tony
2021-05-28 03:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
du Fresne's piece is skillfully argued and articulated.
Thus New Zealand's preoccupations and insecurities over its perpetually
unresolved "cultural identity". These will forever remain intractable and
1. One small, 100% mixed-race sector of the population continues to prioritise
its own claimed exceptionlisms whenever it reckons there is political and
socio-economic advantage to be gained by doing so.
2. Successive governments of whatever stripe persist in kneeling to this 100%
mixed-race minority as cowering proxies for their long-gone forebears whose
sins, it seems, can never be atoned for and finally expiated for all time.
Absolutely right. However I have some hope that we will move on but it will not
be in my lifetime.
It would be terrific if we all boarded the same waka.
By 'waka', you presumably mean "Maori Exceptionalism" is the best of all options?
No just using the word that du Fresne used, merely a symbol.
Gordon
2021-05-29 01:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
du Fresne's piece is skillfully argued and articulated.
Thus New Zealand's preoccupations and insecurities over its perpetually
unresolved "cultural identity". These will forever remain intractable and
1. One small, 100% mixed-race sector of the population continues to prioritise
its own claimed exceptionlisms whenever it reckons there is political and
socio-economic advantage to be gained by doing so.
2. Successive governments of whatever stripe persist in kneeling to this 100%
mixed-race minority as cowering proxies for their long-gone forebears whose
sins, it seems, can never be atoned for and finally expiated for all time.
Absolutely right. However I have some hope that we will move on but it will not
be in my lifetime.
It would be terrific if we all boarded the same waka.
By 'waka', you presumably mean "Maori Exceptionalism" is the best of all options?
No just using the word that du Fresne used, merely a symbol.
All in the same boat, is the English phrase.
Gordon
2021-05-29 01:40:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
So that the rest of us can.

It is so strange to me that we have the rainbow movement. Person sexuality
is no longer binary, probably never was, and yet here we have some mixing of
the DNA and cultures so that things are not binary. Nevertheless some wish
to go binary on race.

It is a very complex issue with a great deal of history. It is not helpful
in taking an attacking stance as the way through this is to keep the
communication lines open and for the moderates on both sides to step up and
say naff off exremists.

There is so many angles to this matter that every last ounce of tolerance
and acceptance will be needed.

A very similar issue is happening in the USA, only to a greater degree and
depth.
Tony
2021-05-29 03:57:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2021/05/were-all-in-same-waka.html
Posted without comment.
So that the rest of us can.
Of course but it is optional.
Post by Gordon
It is so strange to me that we have the rainbow movement. Person sexuality
is no longer binary, probably never was, and yet here we have some mixing of
the DNA and cultures so that things are not binary. Nevertheless some wish
to go binary on race.
Yes they do to their shame,
Post by Gordon
It is a very complex issue with a great deal of history. It is not helpful
in taking an attacking stance as the way through this is to keep the
communication lines open and for the moderates on both sides to step up and
say naff off exremists.
Hence no comment.
Post by Gordon
There is so many angles to this matter that every last ounce of tolerance
and acceptance will be needed.
I wish, but some here cannot even spell tolerance.
Post by Gordon
A very similar issue is happening in the USA, only to a greater degree and
depth.
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