Discussion:
Teh Success of the governments Fees free policy.
(too old to reply)
Rich80105
2020-01-26 10:47:28 UTC
Permalink
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/warwick-quinn-construction-industry-benefiting-from-govts-fees-free-policy/
Sometimes good news comes from the most unlikely sources!
John Bowes
2020-01-26 20:32:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/warwick-quinn-construction-industry-benefiting-from-govts-fees-free-policy/
Sometimes good news comes from the most unlikely sources!
The problem with fees free Rich is it's applied to those who work hard as well as the dumb buggers who drop out half way through the course! Fees should be charged to the drop outs! Ditto for the university students!

Winston's circus is hell bent on destroying personal responsibility of individuals so we finish up a nation of dumb little Marxists like you Rich and Winston's CoL!
Gordon
2020-01-27 06:12:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/warwick-quinn-construction-industry-benefiting-from-govts-fees-free-policy/
Sometimes good news comes from the most unlikely sources!
The problem with fees free Rich is it's applied to those who work hard as well as the dumb buggers who drop out half way through the course!
Fees should be charged to the drop outs! Ditto for the university students!
True fees to people who should be elsewhere is not the best value for the
country.

However, you need to get a slight excess of students in the door so that you
get the max output. Some loss/overhead is the cost of this.
Post by John Bowes
Winston's circus is hell bent on destroying personal responsibility of individuals so we finish up a nation of dumb little Marxists like you Rich and Winston's CoL!
Look at history, and you will find it is the neo liberal ideas which have
done this.
Rich80105
2020-01-27 10:02:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/warwick-quinn-construction-industry-benefiting-from-govts-fees-free-policy/
Sometimes good news comes from the most unlikely sources!
The problem with fees free Rich is it's applied to those who work hard as well as the dumb buggers who drop out half way through the course!
Fees should be charged to the drop outs! Ditto for the university students!
True fees to people who should be elsewhere is not the best value for the
country.
Most courses weed out those who are not up to the course early on or
during the course - better supervision in the last few years is
avoiding "fee farming' by offering courses that are too easy, or where
failure rates are too high. There are however some people that
struggle through early parts of courses but excel as they mature -
there have been people that failed School certificate but went on to
doctorates later on. We should not be too quick to condemn kids going
through puberty etc. . .
Post by Gordon
However, you need to get a slight excess of students in the door so that you
get the max output. Some loss/overhead is the cost of this.
Exactly.
Post by Gordon
Post by John Bowes
Winston's circus is hell bent on destroying personal responsibility of individuals so we finish up a nation of dumb little Marxists like you Rich and Winston's CoL!
Look at history, and you will find it is the neo liberal ideas which have
done this.
It is putting profits before people. One of the scourges that still
needs to be addressed are building companies that fold (putting
workers out of work) only to reappear in another guise - all to get
out of contractual obligations, guarantees etc. It rewards sloppy
workmanship and lack of adequate insurance, but plays havoc with
apprenticeships etc.

Crash
2020-01-26 21:53:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/warwick-quinn-construction-industry-benefiting-from-govts-fees-free-policy/
Sometimes good news comes from the most unlikely sources!
It is actually not 'good news' at all but merely the opinion if the
CEO if BCITO with no supporting information. There is no evidence
that the 6000 students would not have taken up trade training anyway.
The fees-free initiative applies to all manner of tertiary education
options - there is no credible evidence that this has led to a greater
uptake of trades training.

The policy itself is not achieving its goal:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/112710129/low-enrolments-sees-200m-clawed-back-from-fees-free-scheme

(ignore the headline - go for the substance)


--
Crash McBash
Rich80105
2020-01-27 00:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/warwick-quinn-construction-industry-benefiting-from-govts-fees-free-policy/
Sometimes good news comes from the most unlikely sources!
It is actually not 'good news' at all but merely the opinion if the
CEO if BCITO with no supporting information. There is no evidence
that the 6000 students would not have taken up trade training anyway.
The fees-free initiative applies to all manner of tertiary education
options - there is no credible evidence that this has led to a greater
uptake of trades training.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/112710129/low-enrolments-sees-200m-clawed-back-from-fees-free-scheme
(ignore the headline - go for the substance)
Thanks for that, Crash. I believe there is substance in both. The
police has helped a number of students to get through education
without going into huge debt, but low unemployment has also reduced
the number in training. Overall, there is still work to do to get more
trades workers in particular, but that will probably be affected more
by the structural changes the government is considering so that
skilled trades people can take the risk of employing an apprentice. We
need an efficient and effective market.

Some of the criticism is mindless knee-jerk responses. I look at what
happened with high fees for dentistry students - that translated in to
higher fees for dentists, and also for fewer young dentists setting up
in practice for themselves - they could not afford the capital cost of
buying a practice, so many are now employed, with good profits going
to a small number of business owners who cuold raise the capital.

There is now however a different issue making it difficult to move
from home for study - the rampant increases in rent are feeding off
increases in lending limites . . .

Overall, the policy has been successful in one respect, it has
increased the proportion of students from less well off households
being able to afford doing tertiary education - equal opportunity is
an aim that the government has retained, even if others have
forgotten.

I agree with you that this is a complex issue, with a number of
objectives, and market forces impacting on decisions for both students
and education providers.
Gordon
2020-01-27 06:08:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/warwick-quinn-construction-industry-benefiting-from-govts-fees-free-policy/
Sometimes good news comes from the most unlikely sources!
It is actually not 'good news' at all but merely the opinion if the
CEO if BCITO with no supporting information. There is no evidence
that the 6000 students would not have taken up trade training anyway.
The fees-free initiative applies to all manner of tertiary education
options - there is no credible evidence that this has led to a greater
uptake of trades training.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/112710129/low-enrolments-sees-200m-clawed-back-from-fees-free-scheme
(ignore the headline - go for the substance)
Thanks for that, Crash. I believe there is substance in both. The
police has helped a number of students to get through education
without going into huge debt, but low unemployment has also reduced
the number in training. Overall, there is still work to do to get more
trades workers in particular, but that will probably be affected more
by the structural changes the government is considering so that
skilled trades people can take the risk of employing an apprentice. We
need an efficient and effective market.
Some of the criticism is mindless knee-jerk responses. I look at what
happened with high fees for dentistry students - that translated in to
higher fees for dentists, and also for fewer young dentists setting up
in practice for themselves - they could not afford the capital cost of
buying a practice, so many are now employed, with good profits going
to a small number of business owners who cuold raise the capital.
There is now however a different issue making it difficult to move
from home for study - the rampant increases in rent are feeding off
increases in lending limites . . .
Overall, the policy has been successful in one respect, it has
increased the proportion of students from less well off households
being able to afford doing tertiary education - equal opportunity is
an aim that the government has retained, even if others have
forgotten.
I agree with you that this is a complex issue, with a number of
objectives, and market forces impacting on decisions for both students
and education providers.
Good grief, Rich can do it. Post to the point and stay on it through some
paragraphs.

Good on you Rich. I look forward to more of the same.
Gordon
2020-01-27 06:03:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/warwick-quinn-construction-industry-benefiting-from-govts-fees-free-policy/
Sometimes good news comes from the most unlikely sources!
It is actually not 'good news' at all but merely the opinion if the
CEO if BCITO with no supporting information. There is no evidence
that the 6000 students would not have taken up trade training anyway.
The article had a quote to say that to some familes the free aspect was
encouragement.
Post by Crash
The fees-free initiative applies to all manner of tertiary education
options - there is no credible evidence that this has led to a greater
uptake of trades training.
A policy by itself will never achieve its goal. In fact I would argue that a
policy has no goal. You need a goal first and as one sets out to active it
policies are developed to save repeating the wheel.
Post by Crash
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/112710129/low-enrolments-sees-200m-clawed-back-from-fees-free-scheme
(ignore the headline - go for the substance)
Gordon
2020-01-27 05:58:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/warwick-quinn-construction-industry-benefiting-from-govts-fees-free-policy/
Sometimes good news comes from the most unlikely sources!
It is so interesting how things work. Back in the good old days there was
apprienticeships. Young people worked for sweet all while they learn't the
trade. Did courses on the way to becoming qualified, all paid for by the
taxpayer.

I do wonder if work safe have approved of that picture.
Rich80105
2020-01-27 09:56:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/warwick-quinn-construction-industry-benefiting-from-govts-fees-free-policy/
Sometimes good news comes from the most unlikely sources!
It is so interesting how things work. Back in the good old days there was
apprienticeships. Young people worked for sweet all while they learn't the
trade. Did courses on the way to becoming qualified, all paid for by the
taxpayer.
I do wonder if work safe have approved of that picture.
I remember the days of MoW, hydro towns, Electricty Department,
Forestry towns - long term contracts for reginal companies on a mix of
road works, building, power and phone connections, drainage, school
building and maintenance, etc. I also remember apprentices being able
to pay their way in the pub - their pay was sufficient to fit in;
probably not too far off minmum wages for the day, but with incentives
for learning and developing skills to qualify for wage increases.

This article is probably relevant to working conditions and skills
development; much ff our engineering theory and best practice has come
a long way in the last 50 years, but management of contract risk and
looking after communities - not so good.

https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/failing-to-regulate-for-death-destruction-and-waste

In earlier years of course there practical skills were used more in
family homes, now many young people do not even know how to measure,
cut and fit - or even to hammer a nail! The fees free policy has
brought taking a trade course back to being financially viable for
more young people, but they still need to get employment for practical
experience. Some schools have started courses to enable young people
to get a driving license - apparently now around 85% of apprentice
type jobs require a driving license before starting. Different times,
different problems to be solved.
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