Discussion:
Lowering alert levels by region
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Crash
2021-08-28 00:34:06 UTC
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Permalink
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.

So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).

Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.

In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.

Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.

When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).


--
Crash McBash
Rich80105
2021-08-28 01:51:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland. Level 3 makes it harder to trace people. Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East. I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.

Yes I think Aucklanders should have been prevented from travelling
earlier, but that is perhaps with hindsight - so far it has caused on
short term problems. With Delta, I expect any future lockdowns to have
stricter travel restrictions, but that does need to bebalanced against
the need to allow travel for business, tourism and family reasons.
Hindsight offers penty of opportunities for "coulda, shoulda, we
woulda" opportunities; I suspect our contact tracing has improved
significantly, but will be constrained by people not using the app,
lending their phone to a family member, and in particular by not
having bluetooth enabled - I don't know why that is not being
encouraged more.
Post by Crash
Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.
When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).
Crash
2021-08-28 02:08:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Post by Rich80105
Yes I think Aucklanders should have been prevented from travelling
earlier, but that is perhaps with hindsight - so far it has caused on
short term problems. With Delta, I expect any future lockdowns to have
stricter travel restrictions, but that does need to bebalanced against
the need to allow travel for business, tourism and family reasons.
Hindsight offers penty of opportunities for "coulda, shoulda, we
woulda" opportunities; I suspect our contact tracing has improved
significantly, but will be constrained by people not using the app,
lending their phone to a family member, and in particular by not
having bluetooth enabled - I don't know why that is not being
encouraged more.
See above....
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.
When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).
--
Crash McBash
Tony
2021-08-28 02:15:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Post by Rich80105
Yes I think Aucklanders should have been prevented from travelling
earlier, but that is perhaps with hindsight - so far it has caused on
short term problems. With Delta, I expect any future lockdowns to have
stricter travel restrictions, but that does need to bebalanced against
the need to allow travel for business, tourism and family reasons.
Hindsight offers penty of opportunities for "coulda, shoulda, we
woulda" opportunities; I suspect our contact tracing has improved
significantly, but will be constrained by people not using the app,
lending their phone to a family member, and in particular by not
having bluetooth enabled - I don't know why that is not being
encouraged more.
See above....
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.
When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).
--
Crash McBash
I am with you Crash and I do not live in Northland.
As I wrote a few moments ago I believe a decision has been based on a less than
competent restriction to travelling quickly enough. Who's fault I don't know
but slack it certainly appears to be.
Crash
2021-08-28 02:29:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:15:29 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Post by Rich80105
Yes I think Aucklanders should have been prevented from travelling
earlier, but that is perhaps with hindsight - so far it has caused on
short term problems. With Delta, I expect any future lockdowns to have
stricter travel restrictions, but that does need to bebalanced against
the need to allow travel for business, tourism and family reasons.
Hindsight offers penty of opportunities for "coulda, shoulda, we
woulda" opportunities; I suspect our contact tracing has improved
significantly, but will be constrained by people not using the app,
lending their phone to a family member, and in particular by not
having bluetooth enabled - I don't know why that is not being
encouraged more.
See above....
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.
When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).
--
Crash McBash
I am with you Crash and I do not live in Northland.
As I wrote a few moments ago I believe a decision has been based on a less than
competent restriction to travelling quickly enough. Who's fault I don't know
but slack it certainly appears to be.
Yes, and if there is a next time Hone Harawira and his Tai Tokerau
Border Control vigilantes will be out blockading. I will never
support such grandstanding but it is hard to say 'leave it to the
Police' with a straight face after last week.


--
Crash McBash
George Black
2021-08-28 19:49:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Crash
Yes, and if there is a next time Hone Harawira and his Tai Tokerau
Border Control vigilantes will be out blockading. I will never
support such grandstanding but it is hard to say 'leave it to the
Police' with a straight face after last week.
Those mentioned are just trying it on.
Cops actually do their job and the Tai Tokerau get handcuffed and
removed from the scene with promises of charges.
Crash
2021-08-28 23:31:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by George Black
Post by Crash
Yes, and if there is a next time Hone Harawira and his Tai Tokerau
Border Control vigilantes will be out blockading. I will never
support such grandstanding but it is hard to say 'leave it to the
Police' with a straight face after last week.
Those mentioned are just trying it on.
Cops actually do their job and the Tai Tokerau get handcuffed and
removed from the scene with promises of charges.
It was about 7 days that there was no roadblocks to stop Aucklanders
illegally traveling north AFTER level 4 restrictions were imposed. So
Aucklanders cam north in droves, with the risk that many of them are
now classed as close contacts. In Northland, the Police are not your
protectors. If there is a next-time, vigilantes (regardless of who
they are) will fill that role and who can blame them?


--
Crash McBash
Rich80105
2021-08-29 00:31:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Crash
Post by George Black
Post by Crash
Yes, and if there is a next time Hone Harawira and his Tai Tokerau
Border Control vigilantes will be out blockading. I will never
support such grandstanding but it is hard to say 'leave it to the
Police' with a straight face after last week.
Those mentioned are just trying it on.
Cops actually do their job and the Tai Tokerau get handcuffed and
removed from the scene with promises of charges.
It was about 7 days that there was no roadblocks to stop Aucklanders
illegally traveling north AFTER level 4 restrictions were imposed. So
Aucklanders cam north in droves, with the risk that many of them are
now classed as close contacts. In Northland, the Police are not your
protectors. If there is a next-time, vigilantes (regardless of who
they are) will fill that role and who can blame them?
So did the Tai Tokerau get hancuffed and removed or not? Do you have a
link to them being removed?
Crash
2021-08-29 01:56:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by George Black
Post by Crash
Yes, and if there is a next time Hone Harawira and his Tai Tokerau
Border Control vigilantes will be out blockading. I will never
support such grandstanding but it is hard to say 'leave it to the
Police' with a straight face after last week.
Those mentioned are just trying it on.
Cops actually do their job and the Tai Tokerau get handcuffed and
removed from the scene with promises of charges.
It was about 7 days that there was no roadblocks to stop Aucklanders
illegally traveling north AFTER level 4 restrictions were imposed. So
Aucklanders cam north in droves, with the risk that many of them are
now classed as close contacts. In Northland, the Police are not your
protectors. If there is a next-time, vigilantes (regardless of who
they are) will fill that role and who can blame them?
So did the Tai Tokerau get hancuffed and removed or not? Do you have a
link to them being removed?
Not sure what you are asking for here. I have ventured what might
happen in the future and George has expressed a viewpoint on what the
Police should do if my prediction is accurate.

When NZ went into Level 4 last year, Te Tai Tokerau Border Control
(TBC) took vigilante action to stop Aucklanders traveling North during
level 4 by setting up roadblocks. Eventually the Police joined them
after a few days so these roadblocks had a Police presence. Similar
steps were taken subsequently when Auckland and Northland were at
different levels. On Wednesday August 18 last Police advised TBC that
they had things under control with respect to the (repeated) Auckland
exodus North and that no further assistance was needed or welcomed
from TBC.

As things stand now, Northland has a number of close contacts in the
community in isolation. Some certainly were returning residents who
were at Locations of Interest outside Northland before August 17 and
subsequently returned home, but equally some are probably Aucklanders
who came North Illegally after Level 4 took effect, there being no
Police presence to stop them.

This is the context in which I suggested that next time anything
happens that provokes an exodus of Aucklanders to Northland, TBC
might take vigilante action for 'protection' of the very vulnerable
kaumatua from unwelcome and (usually) illegal invaders.


--
Crash McBash
Rich80105
2021-08-28 02:51:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Yes I think Aucklanders should have been prevented from travelling
earlier, but that is perhaps with hindsight - so far it has caused on
short term problems. With Delta, I expect any future lockdowns to have
stricter travel restrictions, but that does need to bebalanced against
the need to allow travel for business, tourism and family reasons.
Hindsight offers penty of opportunities for "coulda, shoulda, we
woulda" opportunities; I suspect our contact tracing has improved
significantly, but will be constrained by people not using the app,
lending their phone to a family member, and in particular by not
having bluetooth enabled - I don't know why that is not being
encouraged more.
See above....
I didn't see any comment on bluetooth above - do you disagree?
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.
When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).
There is very little cast iron in dealing with the Delta Covid - we
are continuing to learn . . .
Tony
2021-08-28 02:55:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Yes I think Aucklanders should have been prevented from travelling
earlier, but that is perhaps with hindsight - so far it has caused on
short term problems. With Delta, I expect any future lockdowns to have
stricter travel restrictions, but that does need to bebalanced against
the need to allow travel for business, tourism and family reasons.
Hindsight offers penty of opportunities for "coulda, shoulda, we
woulda" opportunities; I suspect our contact tracing has improved
significantly, but will be constrained by people not using the app,
lending their phone to a family member, and in particular by not
having bluetooth enabled - I don't know why that is not being
encouraged more.
See above....
I didn't see any comment on bluetooth above - do you disagree?
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.
When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).
There is very little cast iron in dealing with the Delta Covid - we
are continuing to learn . . .
Absolutely everything, you have written in this thread applies to the whole of
New Zealand. You have provided no specific Northland exception.
Rich80105
2021-08-28 04:50:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:55:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Yes I think Aucklanders should have been prevented from travelling
earlier, but that is perhaps with hindsight - so far it has caused on
short term problems. With Delta, I expect any future lockdowns to have
stricter travel restrictions, but that does need to bebalanced against
the need to allow travel for business, tourism and family reasons.
Hindsight offers penty of opportunities for "coulda, shoulda, we
woulda" opportunities; I suspect our contact tracing has improved
significantly, but will be constrained by people not using the app,
lending their phone to a family member, and in particular by not
having bluetooth enabled - I don't know why that is not being
encouraged more.
See above....
I didn't see any comment on bluetooth above - do you disagree?
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.
When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).
There is very little cast iron in dealing with the Delta Covid - we
are continuing to learn . . .
Absolutely everything, you have written in this thread applies to the whole of
New Zealand. You have provided no specific Northland exception.
The need for contact tracing, and the results of those investigations
and the extent of the data varies across all regions; particularly
relating to people that may have been in locations of interest.
Tony
2021-08-28 05:06:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:55:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Yes I think Aucklanders should have been prevented from travelling
earlier, but that is perhaps with hindsight - so far it has caused on
short term problems. With Delta, I expect any future lockdowns to have
stricter travel restrictions, but that does need to bebalanced against
the need to allow travel for business, tourism and family reasons.
Hindsight offers penty of opportunities for "coulda, shoulda, we
woulda" opportunities; I suspect our contact tracing has improved
significantly, but will be constrained by people not using the app,
lending their phone to a family member, and in particular by not
having bluetooth enabled - I don't know why that is not being
encouraged more.
See above....
I didn't see any comment on bluetooth above - do you disagree?
Post by Crash
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.
When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).
There is very little cast iron in dealing with the Delta Covid - we
are continuing to learn . . .
Absolutely everything, you have written in this thread applies to the whole of
New Zealand. You have provided no specific Northland exception.
The need for contact tracing, and the results of those investigations
and the extent of the data varies across all regions; particularly
relating to people that may have been in locations of interest.
All of which applies to all of our regions.
Gordon
2021-08-28 05:34:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:55:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Absolutely everything, you have written in this thread applies to the whole of
New Zealand. You have provided no specific Northland exception.
The need for contact tracing, and the results of those investigations
and the extent of the data varies across all regions; particularly
relating to people that may have been in locations of interest.
Which is the reasoning behind the 14 day period of little/no movement to
allow covid to show itself. And for the tracers to ring fence it.

With lack of pop ups from Covid we should be good to stand at ease.
Rich80105
2021-08-28 07:40:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:55:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Absolutely everything, you have written in this thread applies to the whole of
New Zealand. You have provided no specific Northland exception.
The need for contact tracing, and the results of those investigations
and the extent of the data varies across all regions; particularly
relating to people that may have been in locations of interest.
Which is the reasoning behind the 14 day period of little/no movement to
allow covid to show itself. And for the tracers to ring fence it.
With lack of pop ups from Covid we should be good to stand at ease.
Not sure what you mean by pop ups, but with data varying over
different regions, it is perhaps not surpising that for short periods
we may not have all regions at the same level.
John Bowes
2021-08-28 03:02:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Post by Rich80105
Yes I think Aucklanders should have been prevented from travelling
earlier, but that is perhaps with hindsight - so far it has caused on
short term problems. With Delta, I expect any future lockdowns to have
stricter travel restrictions, but that does need to bebalanced against
the need to allow travel for business, tourism and family reasons.
Hindsight offers penty of opportunities for "coulda, shoulda, we
woulda" opportunities; I suspect our contact tracing has improved
significantly, but will be constrained by people not using the app,
lending their phone to a family member, and in particular by not
having bluetooth enabled - I don't know why that is not being
encouraged more.
See above....
I didn't see any comment on bluetooth above - do you disagree?
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.
When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).
There is very little cast iron in dealing with the Delta Covid - we
are continuing to learn . . .
It would appear from the evidence that you like the government you support are incapable of learning Rich.
Gordon
2021-08-28 05:30:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
So, the question remains, PM could you please explain the reasoning of
keeping Northalnd at Level 4, along with Auckland, as none of us seem to be
clear as to why this was done. It also seems to be in yur interest to give
the reasoning as the people might make up the wrong reasons should they not
receive it from the Government.

Having different areas at different levels is going to prove difficult. I do
think that Kiwis would approve of war like check points and other travel
checking.
Rich80105
2021-08-28 07:39:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
So, the question remains, PM could you please explain the reasoning of
keeping Northalnd at Level 4, along with Auckland, as none of us seem to be
clear as to why this was done. It also seems to be in yur interest to give
the reasoning as the people might make up the wrong reasons should they not
receive it from the Government.
Having different areas at different levels is going to prove difficult. I do
think that Kiwis would approve of war like check points and other travel
checking.
So what would your recommendation have been, Gordon?
James Christophers
2021-08-28 06:34:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday Friday) - it's about mins in.

(I've bothered to check the whole track through fact for fact, word for word from the off-air recording I still hold.)
Nellie the Elephant
2021-08-28 07:30:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday Friday) - it's about mins in.
(I've bothered to check the whole track through fact for fact, word for word from the off-air recording I still hold.)
Excellent, so no doubt you will very soon post the essence of your
recordings and analysis on a free hosting site (there are many
available and easy to use) or even a text record on this newsgroup so
that we can share your conclusions.
I look forward to that and will read your follow up post with open
minded interest.
Rich80105
2021-08-28 08:00:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 19:30:59 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday Friday) - it's about mins in.
(I've bothered to check the whole track through fact for fact, word for word from the off-air recording I still hold.)
Excellent, so no doubt you will very soon post the essence of your
recordings and analysis on a free hosting site (there are many
available and easy to use) or even a text record on this newsgroup so
that we can share your conclusions.
I look forward to that and will read your follow up post with open
minded interest.
The briefings are already on a website Nellie - have you forgotten?
You can look for yourself.
See
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases
and
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-news-and-media-updates
and
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates

plus of course a lot of previous updates.

There has of course been criticism that the briefings are too long,
too detailed, and thereby confusing to some of those posting to
nz.general. It is not clear whether James missed a word in his final
statement in parentheses above, but I've _not_ bothered to check the
whole track through fact for fact, word for word for an exact match
with the "shoulda coulda" briggade - who never quite get to "we
woulda" . . .
Nellie the Elephant
2021-08-28 22:05:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 19:30:59 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday Friday) - it's about mins in.
(I've bothered to check the whole track through fact for fact, word for word from the off-air recording I still hold.)
Excellent, so no doubt you will very soon post the essence of your
recordings and analysis on a free hosting site (there are many
available and easy to use) or even a text record on this newsgroup so
that we can share your conclusions.
I look forward to that and will read your follow up post with open
minded interest.
The briefings are already on a website Nellie - have you forgotten?
You can look for yourself.
See
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases
and
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-news-and-media-updates
and
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates
plus of course a lot of previous updates.
There has of course been criticism that the briefings are too long,
too detailed, and thereby confusing to some of those posting to
nz.general. It is not clear whether James missed a word in his final
statement in parentheses above, but I've _not_ bothered to check the
whole track through fact for fact, word for word for an exact match
with the "shoulda coulda" briggade - who never quite get to "we
woulda" . . .
Well that last is really, really silly isn't it?
James wrote that he had "fact for fact, word for word" knowledge that
supported your other silly post, I was merely hoping that he would
provide that analysis so that the rest of us could see what apparently
ony the two of you could see.
Is that unfair?
James Christophers
2021-08-28 22:50:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nellie the Elephant
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 19:30:59 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday Friday) - it's about mins in.
(I've bothered to check the whole track through fact for fact, word for word from the off-air recording I still hold.)
Excellent, so no doubt you will very soon post the essence of your
recordings and analysis on a free hosting site (there are many
available and easy to use) or even a text record on this newsgroup so
that we can share your conclusions.
I look forward to that and will read your follow up post with open
minded interest.
The briefings are already on a website Nellie - have you forgotten?
You can look for yourself.
See
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases
and
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-news-and-media-updates
and
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates
plus of course a lot of previous updates.
There has of course been criticism that the briefings are too long,
too detailed, and thereby confusing to some of those posting to
nz.general. It is not clear whether James missed a word in his final
statement in parentheses above, but I've _not_ bothered to check the
whole track through fact for fact, word for word for an exact match
with the "shoulda coulda" briggade - who never quite get to "we
woulda" . . .
Well that last is really, really silly isn't it?
James wrote that he had "fact for fact, word for word" knowledge that
supported your other silly post, I was merely hoping that he would
provide that analysis so that the rest of us could see what apparently
ony the two of you could see.
Is that unfair?
How could it be otherwise when that very "analysis" had already been freely given to both you and the rest of New Zealand in the PM's pre-announced update of 27 Aug? Kindly refer to my followup post of 28 Aug 2021, 23:06 which so far has evidently escaped your rigorous scrutiny.
Nellie the Elephant
2021-08-28 22:58:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 15:50:01 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 19:30:59 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday Friday) - it's about mins in.
(I've bothered to check the whole track through fact for fact, word for word from the off-air recording I still hold.)
Excellent, so no doubt you will very soon post the essence of your
recordings and analysis on a free hosting site (there are many
available and easy to use) or even a text record on this newsgroup so
that we can share your conclusions.
I look forward to that and will read your follow up post with open
minded interest.
The briefings are already on a website Nellie - have you forgotten?
You can look for yourself.
See
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases
and
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-news-and-media-updates
and
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates
plus of course a lot of previous updates.
There has of course been criticism that the briefings are too long,
too detailed, and thereby confusing to some of those posting to
nz.general. It is not clear whether James missed a word in his final
statement in parentheses above, but I've _not_ bothered to check the
whole track through fact for fact, word for word for an exact match
with the "shoulda coulda" briggade - who never quite get to "we
woulda" . . .
Well that last is really, really silly isn't it?
James wrote that he had "fact for fact, word for word" knowledge that
supported your other silly post, I was merely hoping that he would
provide that analysis so that the rest of us could see what apparently
ony the two of you could see.
Is that unfair?
How could it be otherwise when that very "analysis" had already been freely given to both you and the rest of New Zealand in the PM's pre-announced update of 27 Aug? Kindly refer to my followup post of 28 Aug 2021, 23:06 which so far has evidently escaped your rigorous scrutiny.
You, kind si,r claimed that you had an analysis that proved the
validity of another post but you did not post the analysis.
Therefore worthless.
James Christophers
2021-08-28 23:18:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 15:50:01 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 19:30:59 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday Friday) - it's about mins in.
(I've bothered to check the whole track through fact for fact, word for word from the off-air recording I still hold.)
Excellent, so no doubt you will very soon post the essence of your
recordings and analysis on a free hosting site (there are many
available and easy to use) or even a text record on this newsgroup so
that we can share your conclusions.
I look forward to that and will read your follow up post with open
minded interest.
The briefings are already on a website Nellie - have you forgotten?
You can look for yourself.
See
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases
and
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-news-and-media-updates
and
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates
plus of course a lot of previous updates.
There has of course been criticism that the briefings are too long,
too detailed, and thereby confusing to some of those posting to
nz.general. It is not clear whether James missed a word in his final
statement in parentheses above, but I've _not_ bothered to check the
whole track through fact for fact, word for word for an exact match
with the "shoulda coulda" briggade - who never quite get to "we
woulda" . . .
Well that last is really, really silly isn't it?
James wrote that he had "fact for fact, word for word" knowledge that
supported your other silly post, I was merely hoping that he would
provide that analysis so that the rest of us could see what apparently
ony the two of you could see.
Is that unfair?
How could it be otherwise when that very "analysis" had already been freely given to both you and the rest of New Zealand in the PM's pre-announced update of 27 Aug? Kindly refer to my followup post of 28 Aug 2021, 23:06 which so far has evidently escaped your rigorous scrutiny.
You, kind si,r claimed that you had an analysis that proved the
validity of another post but you did not post the analysis.
I still do, and now so do you - you always have had anyway - and having now been graciously advised how access it at your leisure, assuming it is still available online. I am not - I repeat not - going to waste time and effort transcribing and posting the relevant segment specially for you, thoroughly decent and deserving fellow though I'm sure you are.
Nellie the Elephant
2021-08-28 23:28:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:18:05 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 15:50:01 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 19:30:59 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday Friday) - it's about mins in.
(I've bothered to check the whole track through fact for fact, word for word from the off-air recording I still hold.)
Excellent, so no doubt you will very soon post the essence of your
recordings and analysis on a free hosting site (there are many
available and easy to use) or even a text record on this newsgroup so
that we can share your conclusions.
I look forward to that and will read your follow up post with open
minded interest.
The briefings are already on a website Nellie - have you forgotten?
You can look for yourself.
See
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases
and
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-news-and-media-updates
and
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates
plus of course a lot of previous updates.
There has of course been criticism that the briefings are too long,
too detailed, and thereby confusing to some of those posting to
nz.general. It is not clear whether James missed a word in his final
statement in parentheses above, but I've _not_ bothered to check the
whole track through fact for fact, word for word for an exact match
with the "shoulda coulda" briggade - who never quite get to "we
woulda" . . .
Well that last is really, really silly isn't it?
James wrote that he had "fact for fact, word for word" knowledge that
supported your other silly post, I was merely hoping that he would
provide that analysis so that the rest of us could see what apparently
ony the two of you could see.
Is that unfair?
How could it be otherwise when that very "analysis" had already been freely given to both you and the rest of New Zealand in the PM's pre-announced update of 27 Aug? Kindly refer to my followup post of 28 Aug 2021, 23:06 which so far has evidently escaped your rigorous scrutiny.
You, kind si,r claimed that you had an analysis that proved the
validity of another post but you did not post the analysis.
I still do, and now so do you - you always have had anyway - and having now been graciously advised how access it at your leisure, assuming it is still available online. I am not - I repeat not - going to waste time and effort transcribing and posting the relevant segment specially for you, thoroughly decent and deserving fellow though I'm sure you are.
I did not ask for any sort of transcription, but the detail that you
"say" proved a point are clearly missing from your posts.
So then old bean your "fact for fact, word for word" analysis is for
nothing.It does not exist and probably never did.
Otherwise you would have provided evidence of the wisdom you so
assiduously crave but have yet to demonstate.
Enough I say, of this preposterous buffoon. Political blindness
personified.
Ainulindale_world_that_is
2021-08-29 04:56:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:28:03 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:18:05 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 15:50:01 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 19:30:59 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday Friday) - it's about mins in.
(I've bothered to check the whole track through fact for fact, word for word from the off-air recording I still hold.)
Excellent, so no doubt you will very soon post the essence of your
recordings and analysis on a free hosting site (there are many
available and easy to use) or even a text record on this newsgroup so
that we can share your conclusions.
I look forward to that and will read your follow up post with open
minded interest.
The briefings are already on a website Nellie - have you forgotten?
You can look for yourself.
See
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases
and
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-news-and-media-updates
and
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates
plus of course a lot of previous updates.
There has of course been criticism that the briefings are too long,
too detailed, and thereby confusing to some of those posting to
nz.general. It is not clear whether James missed a word in his final
statement in parentheses above, but I've _not_ bothered to check the
whole track through fact for fact, word for word for an exact match
with the "shoulda coulda" briggade - who never quite get to "we
woulda" . . .
Well that last is really, really silly isn't it?
James wrote that he had "fact for fact, word for word" knowledge that
supported your other silly post, I was merely hoping that he would
provide that analysis so that the rest of us could see what apparently
ony the two of you could see.
Is that unfair?
How could it be otherwise when that very "analysis" had already been freely given to both you and the rest of New Zealand in the PM's pre-announced update of 27 Aug? Kindly refer to my followup post of 28 Aug 2021, 23:06 which so far has evidently escaped your rigorous scrutiny.
You, kind si,r claimed that you had an analysis that proved the
validity of another post but you did not post the analysis.
I still do, and now so do you - you always have had anyway - and having now been graciously advised how access it at your leisure, assuming it is still available online. I am not - I repeat not - going to waste time and effort transcribing and posting the relevant segment specially for you, thoroughly decent and deserving fellow though I'm sure you are.
I did not ask for any sort of transcription, but the detail that you
"say" proved a point are clearly missing from your posts.
So then old bean your "fact for fact, word for word" analysis is for
nothing.It does not exist and probably never did.
Otherwise you would have provided evidence of the wisdom you so
assiduously crave but have yet to demonstate.
Enough I say, of this preposterous buffoon. Political blindness
personified.
Kapow!
Rich80105
2021-08-29 05:27:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 16:56:23 +1200, Ainulindale_world_that_is
Post by Ainulindale_world_that_is
On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:28:03 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:18:05 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 15:50:01 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 19:30:59 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday Friday) - it's about mins in.
(I've bothered to check the whole track through fact for fact, word for word from the off-air recording I still hold.)
Excellent, so no doubt you will very soon post the essence of your
recordings and analysis on a free hosting site (there are many
available and easy to use) or even a text record on this newsgroup so
that we can share your conclusions.
I look forward to that and will read your follow up post with open
minded interest.
The briefings are already on a website Nellie - have you forgotten?
You can look for yourself.
See
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases
and
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-news-and-media-updates
and
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates
plus of course a lot of previous updates.
There has of course been criticism that the briefings are too long,
too detailed, and thereby confusing to some of those posting to
nz.general. It is not clear whether James missed a word in his final
statement in parentheses above, but I've _not_ bothered to check the
whole track through fact for fact, word for word for an exact match
with the "shoulda coulda" briggade - who never quite get to "we
woulda" . . .
Well that last is really, really silly isn't it?
James wrote that he had "fact for fact, word for word" knowledge that
supported your other silly post, I was merely hoping that he would
provide that analysis so that the rest of us could see what apparently
ony the two of you could see.
Is that unfair?
How could it be otherwise when that very "analysis" had already been freely given to both you and the rest of New Zealand in the PM's pre-announced update of 27 Aug? Kindly refer to my followup post of 28 Aug 2021, 23:06 which so far has evidently escaped your rigorous scrutiny.
You, kind si,r claimed that you had an analysis that proved the
validity of another post but you did not post the analysis.
I still do, and now so do you - you always have had anyway - and having now been graciously advised how access it at your leisure, assuming it is still available online. I am not - I repeat not - going to waste time and effort transcribing and posting the relevant segment specially for you, thoroughly decent and deserving fellow though I'm sure you are.
I did not ask for any sort of transcription, but the detail that you
"say" proved a point are clearly missing from your posts.
So then old bean your "fact for fact, word for word" analysis is for
nothing.It does not exist and probably never did.
Otherwise you would have provided evidence of the wisdom you so
assiduously crave but have yet to demonstate.
Enough I say, of this preposterous buffoon. Political blindness
personified.
Kapow!
This thread has wandered around a bit; but looking back Nellie the
Elephant made a claim that the lockdowns were irrational but did not
say why he thought that, or give details of the specific data that he
claimed was required for him to understand. Perhaps identifying the
information that Nellie and others thinks was being "hidden" and that
they wanted disclosed would help . . . . .. Do please be specific
however - and be prepared to justify why we should be told . . .

The rest of New Zealand appears to accept that the actions were
reasonable, and have moved on - as is becoming apparent with Covid new
information changes peceptions frequently; it now appears that there
may be a need to look more carefully at just what "essential" should
really mean . . .
John Bowes
2021-08-29 07:21:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 16:56:23 +1200, Ainulindale_world_that_is
Post by Ainulindale_world_that_is
On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:28:03 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:18:05 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 15:50:01 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 19:30:59 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday Friday) - it's about mins in.
(I've bothered to check the whole track through fact for fact, word for word from the off-air recording I still hold.)
Excellent, so no doubt you will very soon post the essence of your
recordings and analysis on a free hosting site (there are many
available and easy to use) or even a text record on this newsgroup so
that we can share your conclusions.
I look forward to that and will read your follow up post with open
minded interest.
The briefings are already on a website Nellie - have you forgotten?
You can look for yourself.
See
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases
and
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-news-and-media-updates
and
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates
plus of course a lot of previous updates.
There has of course been criticism that the briefings are too long,
too detailed, and thereby confusing to some of those posting to
nz.general. It is not clear whether James missed a word in his final
statement in parentheses above, but I've _not_ bothered to check the
whole track through fact for fact, word for word for an exact match
with the "shoulda coulda" briggade - who never quite get to "we
woulda" . . .
Well that last is really, really silly isn't it?
James wrote that he had "fact for fact, word for word" knowledge that
supported your other silly post, I was merely hoping that he would
provide that analysis so that the rest of us could see what apparently
ony the two of you could see.
Is that unfair?
How could it be otherwise when that very "analysis" had already been freely given to both you and the rest of New Zealand in the PM's pre-announced update of 27 Aug? Kindly refer to my followup post of 28 Aug 2021, 23:06 which so far has evidently escaped your rigorous scrutiny.
You, kind si,r claimed that you had an analysis that proved the
validity of another post but you did not post the analysis.
I still do, and now so do you - you always have had anyway - and having now been graciously advised how access it at your leisure, assuming it is still available online. I am not - I repeat not - going to waste time and effort transcribing and posting the relevant segment specially for you, thoroughly decent and deserving fellow though I'm sure you are.
I did not ask for any sort of transcription, but the detail that you
"say" proved a point are clearly missing from your posts.
So then old bean your "fact for fact, word for word" analysis is for
nothing.It does not exist and probably never did.
Otherwise you would have provided evidence of the wisdom you so
assiduously crave but have yet to demonstate.
Enough I say, of this preposterous buffoon. Political blindness
personified.
Kapow!
This thread has wandered around a bit; but looking back Nellie the
Elephant made a claim that the lockdowns were irrational but did not
say why he thought that, or give details of the specific data that he
claimed was required for him to understand. Perhaps identifying the
information that Nellie and others thinks was being "hidden" and that
they wanted disclosed would help . . . . .. Do please be specific
however - and be prepared to justify why we should be told . . .
So just where did Nellie make the claim that the lockdowns were irrational Rich? Looking back it looks like just another of your typical lying claims about posters who don't toe your party line!
Post by Rich80105
The rest of New Zealand appears to accept that the actions were
reasonable, and have moved on - as is becoming apparent with Covid new
information changes peceptions frequently; it now appears that there
may be a need to look more carefully at just what "essential" should
really mean . . .
The rest of New Zealand has done nothing of the bloody sort Rich! But that's okay we expect nothing but lies from you and your inglorious leader!
Rich80105
2021-08-29 08:14:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 00:21:17 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 16:56:23 +1200, Ainulindale_world_that_is
Post by Ainulindale_world_that_is
On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:28:03 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:18:05 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 15:50:01 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 19:30:59 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday Friday) - it's about mins in.
(I've bothered to check the whole track through fact for fact, word for word from the off-air recording I still hold.)
Excellent, so no doubt you will very soon post the essence of your
recordings and analysis on a free hosting site (there are many
available and easy to use) or even a text record on this newsgroup so
that we can share your conclusions.
I look forward to that and will read your follow up post with open
minded interest.
The briefings are already on a website Nellie - have you forgotten?
You can look for yourself.
See
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases
and
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-news-and-media-updates
and
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates
plus of course a lot of previous updates.
There has of course been criticism that the briefings are too long,
too detailed, and thereby confusing to some of those posting to
nz.general. It is not clear whether James missed a word in his final
statement in parentheses above, but I've _not_ bothered to check the
whole track through fact for fact, word for word for an exact match
with the "shoulda coulda" briggade - who never quite get to "we
woulda" . . .
Well that last is really, really silly isn't it?
James wrote that he had "fact for fact, word for word" knowledge that
supported your other silly post, I was merely hoping that he would
provide that analysis so that the rest of us could see what apparently
ony the two of you could see.
Is that unfair?
How could it be otherwise when that very "analysis" had already been freely given to both you and the rest of New Zealand in the PM's pre-announced update of 27 Aug? Kindly refer to my followup post of 28 Aug 2021, 23:06 which so far has evidently escaped your rigorous scrutiny.
You, kind si,r claimed that you had an analysis that proved the
validity of another post but you did not post the analysis.
I still do, and now so do you - you always have had anyway - and having now been graciously advised how access it at your leisure, assuming it is still available online. I am not - I repeat not - going to waste time and effort transcribing and posting the relevant segment specially for you, thoroughly decent and deserving fellow though I'm sure you are.
I did not ask for any sort of transcription, but the detail that you
"say" proved a point are clearly missing from your posts.
So then old bean your "fact for fact, word for word" analysis is for
nothing.It does not exist and probably never did.
Otherwise you would have provided evidence of the wisdom you so
assiduously crave but have yet to demonstate.
Enough I say, of this preposterous buffoon. Political blindness
personified.
Kapow!
This thread has wandered around a bit; but looking back Nellie the
Elephant made a claim that the lockdowns were irrational but did not
say why he thought that, or give details of the specific data that he
claimed was required for him to understand. Perhaps identifying the
information that Nellie and others thinks was being "hidden" and that
they wanted disclosed would help . . . . .. Do please be specific
however - and be prepared to justify why we should be told . . .
So just where did Nellie make the claim that the lockdowns were irrational Rich? Looking back it looks like just another of your typical lying claims about posters who don't toe your party line!
Sorry, checking again it was Crash that originally claimed that the
decisions regarding levels by region were irrational (28/08, 2:08pm) I
apologise to Nellie.

Gordon asked for the reasoning to be explained (28/08, 5:30 pm)

James Christophers pointed to the recordings and explanations given at
the briefings (28/08 6:34pm)

Nellie asked for the full reasons to be posted to the group (28/08
7:30)

I gave some links at 8:00 pm

There was then discussion about whether a link to the data was
adequate - with James and Ainul swapping posts about reading from a
link or posting material to nz.general

I asked what specific information people were looking for - no
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
The rest of New Zealand appears to accept that the actions were
reasonable, and have moved on - as is becoming apparent with Covid new
information changes peceptions frequently; it now appears that there
may be a need to look more carefully at just what "essential" should
really mean . . .
The rest of New Zealand has done nothing of the bloody sort Rich! But that's okay we expect nothing but lies from you and your inglorious leader!
Discussion has moved from the differences in levels to possible
problems with "essential workers" and also to mental health issues -
effectively different subjects. For most people, it is clear that key
people are working very hard to coordinate a very complex issue,
involving a number of experts, on a very complex issue which is too
large to have every detail of every decision discussed at length -
gives things a day and there is new information!

And nobody has clearly identified teh data that they were originally
looking for when there was a claim that the decision re levels - now
over two days old so definately in the past, was irrational (not
explained how) and that the reasons and data for the decisions needed
to be given . . .

I am over this thread now - ready for a new week and some different
and hopefully intelligent discussions
Nellie the Elephant
2021-08-29 21:01:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 00:21:17 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 16:56:23 +1200, Ainulindale_world_that_is
Post by Ainulindale_world_that_is
On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:28:03 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:18:05 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 15:50:01 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 19:30:59 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday Friday) - it's about mins in.
(I've bothered to check the whole track through fact for fact, word for word from the off-air recording I still hold.)
Excellent, so no doubt you will very soon post the essence of your
recordings and analysis on a free hosting site (there are many
available and easy to use) or even a text record on this newsgroup so
that we can share your conclusions.
I look forward to that and will read your follow up post with open
minded interest.
The briefings are already on a website Nellie - have you forgotten?
You can look for yourself.
See
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases
and
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-news-and-media-updates
and
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates
plus of course a lot of previous updates.
There has of course been criticism that the briefings are too long,
too detailed, and thereby confusing to some of those posting to
nz.general. It is not clear whether James missed a word in his final
statement in parentheses above, but I've _not_ bothered to check the
whole track through fact for fact, word for word for an exact match
with the "shoulda coulda" briggade - who never quite get to "we
woulda" . . .
Well that last is really, really silly isn't it?
James wrote that he had "fact for fact, word for word" knowledge that
supported your other silly post, I was merely hoping that he would
provide that analysis so that the rest of us could see what apparently
ony the two of you could see.
Is that unfair?
How could it be otherwise when that very "analysis" had already been freely given to both you and the rest of New Zealand in the PM's pre-announced update of 27 Aug? Kindly refer to my followup post of 28 Aug 2021, 23:06 which so far has evidently escaped your rigorous scrutiny.
You, kind si,r claimed that you had an analysis that proved the
validity of another post but you did not post the analysis.
I still do, and now so do you - you always have had anyway - and having now been graciously advised how access it at your leisure, assuming it is still available online. I am not - I repeat not - going to waste time and effort transcribing and posting the relevant segment specially for you, thoroughly decent and deserving fellow though I'm sure you are.
I did not ask for any sort of transcription, but the detail that you
"say" proved a point are clearly missing from your posts.
So then old bean your "fact for fact, word for word" analysis is for
nothing.It does not exist and probably never did.
Otherwise you would have provided evidence of the wisdom you so
assiduously crave but have yet to demonstate.
Enough I say, of this preposterous buffoon. Political blindness
personified.
Kapow!
This thread has wandered around a bit; but looking back Nellie the
Elephant made a claim that the lockdowns were irrational but did not
say why he thought that, or give details of the specific data that he
claimed was required for him to understand. Perhaps identifying the
information that Nellie and others thinks was being "hidden" and that
they wanted disclosed would help . . . . .. Do please be specific
however - and be prepared to justify why we should be told . . .
So just where did Nellie make the claim that the lockdowns were irrational Rich? Looking back it looks like just another of your typical lying claims about posters who don't toe your party line!
Sorry, checking again it was Crash that originally claimed that the
decisions regarding levels by region were irrational (28/08, 2:08pm) I
apologise to Nellie.
Gordon asked for the reasoning to be explained (28/08, 5:30 pm)
James Christophers pointed to the recordings and explanations given at
the briefings (28/08 6:34pm)
Nellie asked for the full reasons to be posted to the group (28/08
7:30)
I gave some links at 8:00 pm
There was then discussion about whether a link to the data was
adequate - with James and Ainul swapping posts about reading from a
link or posting material to nz.general
I asked what specific information people were looking for - no
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
The rest of New Zealand appears to accept that the actions were
reasonable, and have moved on - as is becoming apparent with Covid new
information changes peceptions frequently; it now appears that there
may be a need to look more carefully at just what "essential" should
really mean . . .
The rest of New Zealand has done nothing of the bloody sort Rich! But that's okay we expect nothing but lies from you and your inglorious leader!
Discussion has moved from the differences in levels to possible
problems with "essential workers" and also to mental health issues -
effectively different subjects. For most people, it is clear that key
people are working very hard to coordinate a very complex issue,
involving a number of experts, on a very complex issue which is too
large to have every detail of every decision discussed at length -
gives things a day and there is new information!
And nobody has clearly identified teh data that they were originally
looking for when there was a claim that the decision re levels - now
over two days old so definately in the past, was irrational (not
explained how) and that the reasons and data for the decisions needed
to be given . . .
I am over this thread now - ready for a new week and some different
and hopefully intelligent discussions
Then you best simply read what others write and not comment yourself
if you wish for intelligence.
Since you have run away, for the record.
Crash explained his concerns concisely and clearly, James suggested
Crash was wrong without providing evidence, the links provided to the
theatrical press conferences were not in themselves conclusive and
James was unwilling or unable to explain how they were relevant.
The only thing you contributed to this thread was distortion,
sillyiness and political passion (misplaced as per normal).
Crash
2021-08-29 08:23:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 16:56:23 +1200, Ainulindale_world_that_is
Post by Ainulindale_world_that_is
On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 11:28:03 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:18:05 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 15:50:01 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by Nellie the Elephant
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 28 Aug 2021 19:30:59 +1200, Nellie the Elephant
Post by Nellie the Elephant
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday Friday) - it's about mins in.
(I've bothered to check the whole track through fact for fact, word for word from the off-air recording I still hold.)
Excellent, so no doubt you will very soon post the essence of your
recordings and analysis on a free hosting site (there are many
available and easy to use) or even a text record on this newsgroup so
that we can share your conclusions.
I look forward to that and will read your follow up post with open
minded interest.
The briefings are already on a website Nellie - have you forgotten?
You can look for yourself.
See
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases
and
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-news-and-media-updates
and
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/feature/covid-19-updates
plus of course a lot of previous updates.
There has of course been criticism that the briefings are too long,
too detailed, and thereby confusing to some of those posting to
nz.general. It is not clear whether James missed a word in his final
statement in parentheses above, but I've _not_ bothered to check the
whole track through fact for fact, word for word for an exact match
with the "shoulda coulda" briggade - who never quite get to "we
woulda" . . .
Well that last is really, really silly isn't it?
James wrote that he had "fact for fact, word for word" knowledge that
supported your other silly post, I was merely hoping that he would
provide that analysis so that the rest of us could see what apparently
ony the two of you could see.
Is that unfair?
How could it be otherwise when that very "analysis" had already been freely given to both you and the rest of New Zealand in the PM's pre-announced update of 27 Aug? Kindly refer to my followup post of 28 Aug 2021, 23:06 which so far has evidently escaped your rigorous scrutiny.
You, kind si,r claimed that you had an analysis that proved the
validity of another post but you did not post the analysis.
I still do, and now so do you - you always have had anyway - and having now been graciously advised how access it at your leisure, assuming it is still available online. I am not - I repeat not - going to waste time and effort transcribing and posting the relevant segment specially for you, thoroughly decent and deserving fellow though I'm sure you are.
I did not ask for any sort of transcription, but the detail that you
"say" proved a point are clearly missing from your posts.
So then old bean your "fact for fact, word for word" analysis is for
nothing.It does not exist and probably never did.
Otherwise you would have provided evidence of the wisdom you so
assiduously crave but have yet to demonstate.
Enough I say, of this preposterous buffoon. Political blindness
personified.
Kapow!
This thread has wandered around a bit; but looking back Nellie the
Elephant made a claim that the lockdowns were irrational but did not
say why he thought that, or give details of the specific data that he
claimed was required for him to understand. Perhaps identifying the
information that Nellie and others thinks was being "hidden" and that
they wanted disclosed would help . . . . .. Do please be specific
however - and be prepared to justify why we should be told . . .
Rich80105 you appear to be confused. A similar claim was made in
another thread and not by Nellie.
Post by Rich80105
The rest of New Zealand appears to accept that the actions were
reasonable, and have moved on - as is becoming apparent with Covid new
information changes peceptions frequently; it now appears that there
may be a need to look more carefully at just what "essential" should
really mean . . .
Not in my area. The Police took a week to set up permanent roadblocks
to address the issue of Aucklanders illegally traveling North after
level 4 was imposed. There is nothing you can do to deflect from this
or the resulting vigilante actions that might happen if Northland gets
to level 3 while Auckland is still in level 4.

The Government can change the meaninings of "essential" and any other
part of the response to COVID19 but unless the Police get out and
enforce the law, those Aucklanders who illegally travel will put their
destinations at risk. In turn, vigilante groups will fill that void.


--
Crash McBash
James Christophers
2021-08-28 11:06:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland.
No confirmed cases in Northland or the Coromandel area. Large numbers
of close contacts in both. Places of Interest in the Coromandel area.
Where is the wisdom in allowing Coromandel to go to level 3 but not
Northland?
Post by Rich80105
Level 3 makes it harder to trace people.
Really? How so? Same tools as with Level 4. Very small relaxation
of travel restrictions and wider availability of pre-order-and-collect
mean we can leave home a bit more but tracing us is the same.
During level 4 most people are at home - at level 3, people have many
more reasons to leave home for click and collect, going for a drive
etc. Every little bit helps.
Post by Rich80105
Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East.
Wrong. There are roadblocks just north of Mangowai and just south of
Brynderwyn now. Waipu and Whangarei are further North.
Essential worlers cross the boundaries . . .
Post by Rich80105
I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
Irrelevant. The point is that an irrational decision has been made
for Northland vs other regions south of Auckland.
Just because you do not understand it does not make it irrational - it
will have been based on the expert advice which will largely relate to
contact tracing issues.
Spot on, in fact. Every relevant expert-advised point dealing with this very query was clearly stated and carefully enlarged on, stating reason and purpose, early in Ardern's update yesterday (Friday)
On YouTube (total track play time 56.35)
Tony
2021-08-28 02:11:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland. Level 3 makes it harder to trace people. Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East. I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
All of which appplies to south of Auckland apart from the place names.
Post by Rich80105
Yes I think Aucklanders should have been prevented from travelling
earlier, but that is perhaps with hindsight
Hindsight? You must be joking, the lesson was obvious last year and apparently
nobody learned from it. Not hindsight but less than satisfactory competence.
Post by Rich80105
- so far it has caused on
short term problems.
With Delta, I expect any future lockdowns to have
stricter travel restrictions, but that does need to bebalanced against
the need to allow travel for business, tourism and family reasons.
Hindsight offers penty of opportunities for "coulda, shoulda, we
woulda" opportunities; I suspect our contact tracing has improved
significantly, but will be constrained by people not using the app,
lending their phone to a family member, and in particular by not
having bluetooth enabled - I don't know why that is not being
encouraged more.
All of which applies to south of Auckland.
And to me that indicates that the failure to learn from last year is the
primary reason for the decision and the government has not been honest about it.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.
When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).
Rich80105
2021-08-28 02:53:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:11:02 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland. Level 3 makes it harder to trace people. Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East. I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
All of which appplies to south of Auckland apart from the place names.
Post by Rich80105
Yes I think Aucklanders should have been prevented from travelling
earlier, but that is perhaps with hindsight
Hindsight? You must be joking, the lesson was obvious last year and apparently
nobody learned from it. Not hindsight but less than satisfactory competence.
Post by Rich80105
- so far it has caused on
short term problems.
With Delta, I expect any future lockdowns to have
stricter travel restrictions, but that does need to bebalanced against
the need to allow travel for business, tourism and family reasons.
Hindsight offers penty of opportunities for "coulda, shoulda, we
woulda" opportunities; I suspect our contact tracing has improved
significantly, but will be constrained by people not using the app,
lending their phone to a family member, and in particular by not
having bluetooth enabled - I don't know why that is not being
encouraged more.
All of which applies to south of Auckland.
And to me that indicates that the failure to learn from last year is the
primary reason for the decision and the government has not been honest about it.
Perhaps I have missed the encouragement to make sure bluetooth is
enabled - and that would apply to the whole country.
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.
When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).
Tony
2021-08-28 02:58:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:11:02 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Confirmed cases are where they are found - butclose contacts can hav e
moved anywhere, and there were a large number of potential contacts in
Northland. Level 3 makes it harder to trace people. Give enough time
and they do not need to be contacted, but we have not yet had that
time. Thre is a lot of regular traffic from Warkworth to places like
Waipu and Whangarei and futher North and East. I expect that unless
any infection is found in Northland they will go down to level 3
before Auckland - it is that same ''abundance of caution"" that has
led to the decision for the rest of the country not to go to Level 3
until Monday night; going down too early has bigger problems than
going a day or so later than hidsight may tell us could have been OK.
All of which appplies to south of Auckland apart from the place names.
Post by Rich80105
Yes I think Aucklanders should have been prevented from travelling
earlier, but that is perhaps with hindsight
Hindsight? You must be joking, the lesson was obvious last year and apparently
nobody learned from it. Not hindsight but less than satisfactory competence.
Post by Rich80105
- so far it has caused on
short term problems.
With Delta, I expect any future lockdowns to have
stricter travel restrictions, but that does need to bebalanced against
the need to allow travel for business, tourism and family reasons.
Hindsight offers penty of opportunities for "coulda, shoulda, we
woulda" opportunities; I suspect our contact tracing has improved
significantly, but will be constrained by people not using the app,
lending their phone to a family member, and in particular by not
having bluetooth enabled - I don't know why that is not being
encouraged more.
All of which applies to south of Auckland.
And to me that indicates that the failure to learn from last year is the
primary reason for the decision and the government has not been honest about it.
Perhaps I have missed the encouragement to make sure bluetooth is
enabled - and that would apply to the whole country.
Of course it would and that changes nothing. Bluetooth works in Northland,
heavens it even works in Nightcaps, who would have thought?
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.
When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).
JohnO
2021-08-28 03:05:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.
When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).
--
Crash McBash
Leaving Northland at L4 is quite simply pandering to Special K and the Labour Maori caucus.
Crash
2021-08-30 09:01:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JohnO
Post by Crash
One of the missing links in coming out of level 4 is the precise
rationale used to justify why one region stays at level 4 but others
go down to level 3. Auckland currently has by far the highest number
of confirmed cases and this alone probably justifies continuation with
level 4. Wellington goes to Level 3 with a small number of cases.
Northland remains at level 4 with no cases. All other regions go to
level 3 with no cases.
So on the face of it Northland is not being treated equitably. Note
that Warkworth has one case but that is part of Auckland - not
Northland - and the border patrols are way further North (Brynderwyn
and Mangowai) so Warkworth is over 45k south of the roadblocks now in
place, and 20k south of Wellsford (being the border of Auckland).
Now we can bring in close contacts. There are a fair number, most
notably in Coromandel, Northland and the South Island. There are also
some close contacts in various other parts of the North Island. In
the early stages of level 4 no actions were taken by the Police to
stem the flight from city to batches. Up until 11:59pm on Tuesday
August 17 this was quite legal, but after that not so and past history
gives plenty of warning of what was going to happen.
In the case of Northland there is a significant number of close
contacts which the PM foolishly mapped out without telling us anything
relevant about why the disparity between locations on that map and
locations of confirmed cases. There are many Northlanders who believe
that the sole reason they have so many close contacts is because of
Aucklanders moving North on and after August 17. They are wrong -
there are plenty of places of interest from August 7th to 17th that
visitors from Northland were caught up in and returned home from. The
fact remains though that some have made the connection that Northland
is being singled out as not going down to alert level 3 with the rest
of the country because the Police did not prevent Aucklanders from
leaving town.
Level 3 is not much less restrictive than level 4. The Maccas
drive-thru can open as click-and-collect is allowed including cooked
food. Restaurants can do takeaways etc. However retail businesses
remain closed - no pubs or cafes open with tables available.
Accordingly the seemingly inequitable treatment of Northland has drawn
a muted response.
When we get to allowing level 2 though - if a similar situation arises
then expect a major issue to arise from the affected regions. The
Government will have to give cast-iron reasoning behind the decisions
to allow some regions to go to level 2 but not others. They did not
do this when making their announcement yesterday (Friday August 27th,
in respect of level 3 vs level 4).
--
Crash McBash
Leaving Northland at L4 is quite simply pandering to Special K and the Labour Maori caucus.
It is not seen that way up here. Harawira and his vigilantes got
quite cranky with the Police allowing Aucklanders to barreling North
for a week with boats on the towbar after level 4 came into effect to
get to their batches brining the risk of infection with them.

On Friday morning (3rd) Auckland will remain at level 4 while
Northland goes to level 3 so I am sure Harawira and his mates will be
out checking that the Police roadblocks are still there to stop
Aucklanders from driving to Whangarei for a Maccas drive thru or to
Waipu for a takeaway coffee.


--
Crash McBash

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