Discussion:
Most open and transparent government ever
(too old to reply)
JohnO
2020-05-08 20:48:03 UTC
Permalink
JohnO
2020-05-08 20:49:29 UTC
Permalink
More like most deceptive, arrogant and condescending government ever:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684

What a disgrace.
Tony
2020-05-08 21:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Tony
2020-05-08 21:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Rich80105
2020-05-08 21:54:20 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
Tony
2020-05-08 21:59:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
Rich80105
2020-05-08 22:52:28 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:59:52 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Your statement is a lie.
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
What question so you want an answer to, Tony?
Tony
2020-05-08 22:57:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:59:52 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Your statement is a lie.
No it is verifiablke and absolute truth. Read the link and weep, or would you
rather celebrate the deliberate move to totalitarianism by this government?
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
What question so you want an answer to, Tony?
Now that question of yours is really very stupid.
Rich80105
2020-05-08 23:24:40 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 May 2020 17:57:26 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:59:52 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Your statement is a lie.
No it is verifiablke and absolute truth. Read the link and weep, or would you
rather celebrate the deliberate move to totalitarianism by this government?
I prefer my interpretation, which is as valid an opinion as yours.
By now you may have read the post by James Christopher which sets it
out much more eloquently.
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
What question so you want an answer to, Tony?
Now that question of yours is really very stupid.
Tony
2020-05-08 23:33:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 17:57:26 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:59:52 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Your statement is a lie.
No it is verifiablke and absolute truth. Read the link and weep, or would you
rather celebrate the deliberate move to totalitarianism by this government?
I prefer my interpretation, which is as valid an opinion as yours.
By now you may have read the post by James Christopher which sets it
out much more eloquently.
Prefer whatever you want, the truth is clear. The government has instructed
ministers to not engage. That is fact.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
What question so you want an answer to, Tony?
Now that question of yours is really very stupid.
Rich80105
2020-05-08 23:55:03 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 May 2020 18:33:08 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 17:57:26 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:59:52 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Your statement is a lie.
No it is verifiablke and absolute truth. Read the link and weep, or would you
rather celebrate the deliberate move to totalitarianism by this government?
I prefer my interpretation, which is as valid an opinion as yours.
By now you may have read the post by James Christopher which sets it
out much more eloquently.
Prefer whatever you want, the truth is clear. The government has instructed
ministers to not engage. That is fact.
Actually you are not quoting the instruction - it was from the Prime
Minister, not the Government, and it gave reasons for the instruction,
which did no use the word "engage". Why so you so often misquote,
Tony?

Still, there is plenty to read and discuss - you have said below that
you do not have any questions anyway, so no propblem for you, is
there!
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
What question so you want an answer to, Tony?
Now that question of yours is really very stupid.
Tony
2020-05-09 00:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 18:33:08 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 17:57:26 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:59:52 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Your statement is a lie.
No it is verifiablke and absolute truth. Read the link and weep, or would you
rather celebrate the deliberate move to totalitarianism by this government?
I prefer my interpretation, which is as valid an opinion as yours.
By now you may have read the post by James Christopher which sets it
out much more eloquently.
Prefer whatever you want, the truth is clear. The government has instructed
ministers to not engage. That is fact.
Actually you are not quoting the instruction - it was from the Prime
Minister, not the Government, and it gave reasons for the instruction,
which did no use the word "engage". Why so you so often misquote,
Tony?
I don't you liar. It is reasonable to use the word engage which clearly
describes the edict.
I was unaware that the PM was not part of the government, can you prove that?
Post by Rich80105
Still, there is plenty to read and discuss - you have said below that
you do not have any questions anyway, so no propblem for you, is
there!
That is just plain stupid, this has nothing to do with any questions I might
have and you know it.
You are trying to defend an action that is undemocratic but that is OK, you
often do that. Authoritarian to the core aren't you Rich.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
What question so you want an answer to, Tony?
Now that question of yours is really very stupid.
James Christophers
2020-05-08 22:55:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
I have referred JohnO to further and more detailed info coming from government-funded Radio New Zealand (qv). What is given is only the tip of the iceberg.

Regardless of whatever the government has advised and to who, I think it's a given that having dumped so much material in one go, government will already be under an avalanche of questioning from every Tom, Dick and Harry from here to eternity.

By satisfying the democratic imperative to be "open" as it has, it has made a rod for its own back.

But, if it had not divulged, thereby risking a leak, the government would then have laid itself open to charges of secrecy and cover-up.

Catch-22.

As another contributor has said, with so much information now to hand it would likely have been an unending stream of ambushes and "gotchas" coming from every quarter as individual minsters, already under huge administrative pressures of a kind few could handle, found themselves mired in finer detail thrust at them on the hoof but which they could not possibly have at their fingertips. So where does questioning begin, and where and when does it end?

This is not to excuse ministers from their democratic duty to answer to the electorate, but only to point out that, in terms of practicalities, capacity is necessarily limited when answering such a high-volume ask during what some have refereed to as an existential crisis.

I would add that the wording of the government directive to its ministers does seem "odd" to say the least.
Tony
2020-05-08 23:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
I have referred JohnO to further and more detailed info coming from
government-funded Radio New Zealand (qv). What is given is only the tip of the
iceberg.
Regardless of whatever the government has advised and to who, I think it's a
given that having dumped so much material in one go, government will already be
under an avalanche of questioning from every Tom, Dick and Harry from here to
eternity.
By satisfying the democratic imperative to be "open" as it has, it has made a
rod for its own back.
But, if it had not divulged, thereby risking a leak, the government would then
have laid itself open to charges of secrecy and cover-up.
Catch-22.
As another contributor has said, with so much information now to hand it would
likely have been an unending stream of ambushes and "gotchas" coming from every
quarter as individual minsters, already under huge administrative pressures of
a kind few could handle, found themselves mired in finer detail thrust at them
on the hoof but which they could not possibly have at their fingertips. So
where does questioning begin, and where and when does it end?
This is not to excuse ministers from their democratic duty to answer to the
electorate, but only to point out that, in terms of practicalities, capacity is
necessarily limited when answering such a high-volume ask during what some have
refereed to as an existential crisis.
I would add that the wording of the government directive to its ministers does
seem "odd" to say the least.
And that, I believe, is the centre of this bit of silliness. Why would the
government use language that many will see as being less than open and
significantly less open than their promise to be open and transparent.
James Christophers
2020-05-09 00:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
I have referred JohnO to further and more detailed info coming from
government-funded Radio New Zealand (qv). What is given is only the tip of the
iceberg.
Regardless of whatever the government has advised and to who, I think it's a
given that having dumped so much material in one go, government will already be
under an avalanche of questioning from every Tom, Dick and Harry from here to
eternity.
By satisfying the democratic imperative to be "open" as it has, it has made a
rod for its own back.
But, if it had not divulged, thereby risking a leak, the government would then
have laid itself open to charges of secrecy and cover-up.
Catch-22.
As another contributor has said, with so much information now to hand it would
likely have been an unending stream of ambushes and "gotchas" coming from every
quarter as individual minsters, already under huge administrative pressures of
a kind few could handle, found themselves mired in finer detail thrust at them
on the hoof but which they could not possibly have at their fingertips. So
where does questioning begin, and where and when does it end?
This is not to excuse ministers from their democratic duty to answer to the
electorate, but only to point out that, in terms of practicalities, capacity is
necessarily limited when answering such a high-volume ask during what some have
refereed to as an existential crisis.
I would add that the wording of the government directive to its ministers does
seem "odd" to say the least.
And that, I believe, is the centre of this bit of silliness. Why would the
government use language that many will see as being less than open and
significantly less open than their promise to be open and transparent.
Because what you're reading is ministerial language not originally intended for publication.

More often than not, ministerial exchanges include coded words, the (in this case) decidedly inflammatory "dismiss" being plainly one of them.

In this instance I think you'll find "dismiss" does not mean to "behave dismissively towards questioners" per se, but to dismiss and defer every query and the entire inquisitorial process until that time when it can be more efficiently and effectively handled. This means that any door-stepping or spontaneous ambushing of ministers or their minions on this topic is out for the time being.

Coding is the be-all and end-all of diplomacy, be it between government departments or between nations. For instance, since the 1980's, New Zealand has always been regarded and treated as "unreliable" (their word, not mine) by its global defence partners, this occasioned mostly but not exclusively by its stance on its partners' nuclear policies.

Words like "unreliable" stick, and then some - hence this same estimation still applies when it comes to the 5-Eyes alliance.

Again, since the 1980s, of all the Commonwealth nations, New Zealand has always been regarded by both its sister nations and its defence partners as the most socialist, this tendency being regardless of the style or colour of its internal politics; and I can tell you this with assured confidence:

Prior to 1995, a first cousin (now retired) operated at Undersecretary level in the UK's Ministry of Defence for more than two decades.
John Bowes
2020-05-09 02:53:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
I have referred JohnO to further and more detailed info coming from
government-funded Radio New Zealand (qv). What is given is only the tip of the
iceberg.
Regardless of whatever the government has advised and to who, I think it's a
given that having dumped so much material in one go, government will already be
under an avalanche of questioning from every Tom, Dick and Harry from here to
eternity.
By satisfying the democratic imperative to be "open" as it has, it has made a
rod for its own back.
But, if it had not divulged, thereby risking a leak, the government would then
have laid itself open to charges of secrecy and cover-up.
Catch-22.
As another contributor has said, with so much information now to hand it would
likely have been an unending stream of ambushes and "gotchas" coming from every
quarter as individual minsters, already under huge administrative pressures of
a kind few could handle, found themselves mired in finer detail thrust at them
on the hoof but which they could not possibly have at their fingertips. So
where does questioning begin, and where and when does it end?
This is not to excuse ministers from their democratic duty to answer to the
electorate, but only to point out that, in terms of practicalities, capacity is
necessarily limited when answering such a high-volume ask during what some have
refereed to as an existential crisis.
I would add that the wording of the government directive to its ministers does
seem "odd" to say the least.
And that, I believe, is the centre of this bit of silliness. Why would the
government use language that many will see as being less than open and
significantly less open than their promise to be open and transparent.
The problem with the governments language is that we don't have access to the version of the Marxist dictionary they and Rich are using. It's pretty obvious their interpretation of terms like: open, eliminate and leadership don't match the Oxford dictionary!
George
2020-05-09 20:12:23 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 8 May 2020 19:53:20 -0700 (PDT)
Post by John Bowes
The problem with the governments language is that we don't have
access to the version of the Marxist dictionary they and Rich are
using. It's pretty obvious their interpretation of terms like: open,
eliminate and leadership don't match the Oxford dictionary!
At the moment they're enjoying unregulated power.
Where socalled ministers of the crown can make travel illegal, get
their gang brothers to 'help' and ban people from going to work or to
the beach unless they're a crown minister.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Crash
2020-05-09 00:30:23 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 8 May 2020 15:55:04 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
I have referred JohnO to further and more detailed info coming from government-funded Radio New Zealand (qv). What is given is only the tip of the iceberg.
Regardless of whatever the government has advised and to who, I think it's a given that having dumped so much material in one go, government will already be under an avalanche of questioning from every Tom, Dick and Harry from here to eternity.
By satisfying the democratic imperative to be "open" as it has, it has made a rod for its own back.
But, if it had not divulged, thereby risking a leak, the government would then have laid itself open to charges of secrecy and cover-up.
Catch-22.
As another contributor has said, with so much information now to hand it would likely have been an unending stream of ambushes and "gotchas" coming from every quarter as individual minsters, already under huge administrative pressures of a kind few could handle, found themselves mired in finer detail thrust at them on the hoof but which they could not possibly have at their fingertips. So where does questioning begin, and where and when does it end?
This is not to excuse ministers from their democratic duty to answer to the electorate, but only to point out that, in terms of practicalities, capacity is necessarily limited when answering such a high-volume ask during what some have refereed to as an existential crisis.
I would add that the wording of the government directive to its ministers does seem "odd" to say the least.
The information reportedly dates back to February, details of which I
have included in another post to this thread. The Government
withheld information then finally released a lot of it on a Friday
afternoon. That's when the House is not sitting and just before a
weekend. The reason for the release can only be because the Official
Information Act requires or that it avoids the inevitable Official
Information requests. The timing of the release is because the
Government has decided that is the best time to do so. Past
Governments did the same thing for the same reasons, but this
Government promised as per the thread subject. Turns out this is an
aspiration at best.


--
Crash McBash
James Christophers
2020-05-09 01:57:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
On Fri, 8 May 2020 15:55:04 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
I have referred JohnO to further and more detailed info coming from government-funded Radio New Zealand (qv). What is given is only the tip of the iceberg.
Regardless of whatever the government has advised and to who, I think it's a given that having dumped so much material in one go, government will already be under an avalanche of questioning from every Tom, Dick and Harry from here to eternity.
By satisfying the democratic imperative to be "open" as it has, it has made a rod for its own back.
But, if it had not divulged, thereby risking a leak, the government would then have laid itself open to charges of secrecy and cover-up.
Catch-22.
As another contributor has said, with so much information now to hand it would likely have been an unending stream of ambushes and "gotchas" coming from every quarter as individual minsters, already under huge administrative pressures of a kind few could handle, found themselves mired in finer detail thrust at them on the hoof but which they could not possibly have at their fingertips. So where does questioning begin, and where and when does it end?
This is not to excuse ministers from their democratic duty to answer to the electorate, but only to point out that, in terms of practicalities, capacity is necessarily limited when answering such a high-volume ask during what some have refereed to as an existential crisis.
I would add that the wording of the government directive to its ministers does seem "odd" to say the least.
The information reportedly dates back to February, details of which I
have included in another post to this thread. The Government
withheld information then finally released a lot of it on a Friday
afternoon. That's when the House is not sitting and just before a
weekend. The reason for the release can only be because the Official
Information Act requires or that it avoids the inevitable Official
Information requests. The timing of the release is because the
Government has decided that is the best time to do so. Past
Governments did the same thing for the same reasons, but this
Government promised as per the thread subject. Turns out this is an
aspiration at best.
Open? What is "open"?

A door shut is shut. Period. None shall pass.

A door slightly opened is said to be "ajar". Some may pass, some may not.

So when we use "open" to describe the policies and behaviours of our government, what do we really mean?

Likewise, what does a government - our government - really mean?

I suggest it means, "Open (and transparent) as much and as far as this government shall determine according to the prevailing circumstances".

This pragmatic approach, aspirational or not, is the most to be expected of any government, no matter how benevolent or aspirational its masters and their intentions may be.

It's called pragmatism.

How this pragmatism is contrived and wielded is called "politics".

T'were ever thus and shall forever be...

However, pragmatism or no, while TVNZ and the rest of NZ Television exist as derisory low-rent fashion accessories, we still have government-owned and -funded Radio New Zealand which, 24/57/365 does precisely as mandated: that is, to act as the ears and eyes of the New Zealand electorate.

So be thankful for at least one small mercy.
Crash
2020-05-09 03:35:58 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 8 May 2020 18:57:29 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Crash
On Fri, 8 May 2020 15:55:04 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
I have referred JohnO to further and more detailed info coming from government-funded Radio New Zealand (qv). What is given is only the tip of the iceberg.
Regardless of whatever the government has advised and to who, I think it's a given that having dumped so much material in one go, government will already be under an avalanche of questioning from every Tom, Dick and Harry from here to eternity.
By satisfying the democratic imperative to be "open" as it has, it has made a rod for its own back.
But, if it had not divulged, thereby risking a leak, the government would then have laid itself open to charges of secrecy and cover-up.
Catch-22.
As another contributor has said, with so much information now to hand it would likely have been an unending stream of ambushes and "gotchas" coming from every quarter as individual minsters, already under huge administrative pressures of a kind few could handle, found themselves mired in finer detail thrust at them on the hoof but which they could not possibly have at their fingertips. So where does questioning begin, and where and when does it end?
This is not to excuse ministers from their democratic duty to answer to the electorate, but only to point out that, in terms of practicalities, capacity is necessarily limited when answering such a high-volume ask during what some have refereed to as an existential crisis.
I would add that the wording of the government directive to its ministers does seem "odd" to say the least.
The information reportedly dates back to February, details of which I
have included in another post to this thread. The Government
withheld information then finally released a lot of it on a Friday
afternoon. That's when the House is not sitting and just before a
weekend. The reason for the release can only be because the Official
Information Act requires or that it avoids the inevitable Official
Information requests. The timing of the release is because the
Government has decided that is the best time to do so. Past
Governments did the same thing for the same reasons, but this
Government promised as per the thread subject. Turns out this is an
aspiration at best.
Open? What is "open"?
A door shut is shut. Period. None shall pass.
A door slightly opened is said to be "ajar". Some may pass, some may not.
So when we use "open" to describe the policies and behaviours of our government, what do we really mean?
Likewise, what does a government - our government - really mean?
I suggest it means, "Open (and transparent) as much and as far as this government shall determine according to the prevailing circumstances".
This pragmatic approach, aspirational or not, is the most to be expected of any government, no matter how benevolent or aspirational its masters and their intentions may be.
It's called pragmatism.
How this pragmatism is contrived and wielded is called "politics".
T'were ever thus and shall forever be...
However, pragmatism or no, while TVNZ and the rest of NZ Television exist as derisory low-rent fashion accessories, we still have government-owned and -funded Radio New Zealand which, 24/57/365 does precisely as mandated: that is, to act as the ears and eyes of the New Zealand electorate.
So be thankful for at least one small mercy.
So James, you share my cynicism about the commitment of the current
government to the subject of this thread, as the OP (JohnO) posted.


--
Crash McBash
James Christophers
2020-05-09 05:45:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crash
On Fri, 8 May 2020 18:57:29 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Crash
On Fri, 8 May 2020 15:55:04 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
That is a lie.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
No it is not, they are bbeing told to not answer questions - that is all.
I have referred JohnO to further and more detailed info coming from government-funded Radio New Zealand (qv). What is given is only the tip of the iceberg.
Regardless of whatever the government has advised and to who, I think it's a given that having dumped so much material in one go, government will already be under an avalanche of questioning from every Tom, Dick and Harry from here to eternity.
By satisfying the democratic imperative to be "open" as it has, it has made a rod for its own back.
But, if it had not divulged, thereby risking a leak, the government would then have laid itself open to charges of secrecy and cover-up.
Catch-22.
As another contributor has said, with so much information now to hand it would likely have been an unending stream of ambushes and "gotchas" coming from every quarter as individual minsters, already under huge administrative pressures of a kind few could handle, found themselves mired in finer detail thrust at them on the hoof but which they could not possibly have at their fingertips. So where does questioning begin, and where and when does it end?
This is not to excuse ministers from their democratic duty to answer to the electorate, but only to point out that, in terms of practicalities, capacity is necessarily limited when answering such a high-volume ask during what some have refereed to as an existential crisis.
I would add that the wording of the government directive to its ministers does seem "odd" to say the least.
The information reportedly dates back to February, details of which I
have included in another post to this thread. The Government
withheld information then finally released a lot of it on a Friday
afternoon. That's when the House is not sitting and just before a
weekend. The reason for the release can only be because the Official
Information Act requires or that it avoids the inevitable Official
Information requests. The timing of the release is because the
Government has decided that is the best time to do so. Past
Governments did the same thing for the same reasons, but this
Government promised as per the thread subject. Turns out this is an
aspiration at best.
Open? What is "open"?
A door shut is shut. Period. None shall pass.
A door slightly opened is said to be "ajar". Some may pass, some may not.
So when we use "open" to describe the policies and behaviours of our government, what do we really mean?
Likewise, what does a government - our government - really mean?
I suggest it means, "Open (and transparent) as much and as far as this government shall determine according to the prevailing circumstances".
This pragmatic approach, aspirational or not, is the most to be expected of any government, no matter how benevolent or aspirational its masters and their intentions may be.
It's called pragmatism.
How this pragmatism is contrived and wielded is called "politics".
T'were ever thus and shall forever be...
However, pragmatism or no, while TVNZ and the rest of NZ Television exist as derisory low-rent fashion accessories, we still have government-owned and -funded Radio New Zealand which, 24/57/365 does precisely as mandated: that is, to act as the ears and eyes of the New Zealand electorate.
So be thankful for at least one small mercy.
So James, you share my cynicism about the commitment of the current
government to the subject of this thread, as the OP (JohnO) posted.
Not quite - because, as a lifetime realist, I have already qualified my observations by referring to pragmatism as the driver in this instance. This is the same pragmatism that lies at the core of just about every governmental decision arrived at in the heat of an emergency such as we now face. There's no time whatever for any fancy screwing around when there's a killer on the loose.

So, equally, there can be no time or place for the shutter-minded binary-isms that drive doggedly literal interpretations of such an abstraction as "democracy". (Democracy, I should add - imperfect as it always will be - only succeeds as an ideology because, perversely, it is only too often honoured more in the breach than in the observance.)

Pragmatism itself takes us back to its origins which in politics is the exercise of "realpolitik".

Wikipedia defines realpolitik as:

"...politics or diplomacy based primarily on considerations of given circumstances and factors, rather than explicit ideological notions or moral and ethical premises. In this respect, it shares aspects of its philosophical approach with those of realism and pragmatism."

I think this is neat and explicit enough to support my previous post (my "open door" analogies) to which you have reply above.

En passant, and with Democracy up there in lights, I should also mention that on several occasions when Ardern has ended her latest 1.00pm report and opened the floor to questions, virtually every one of those questions has already been covered and fully explained during the report itself.

Which leads me simply to ask: what on earth is any PM to do when faced with such a dozy, inattentive bunch of tenth-rate hacks who then have the rank timerity to claim they represent the voice of the people?
John Bowes
2020-05-09 02:42:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
Rubbish! The useless bastards are hiding something! Otherwise instead of attacking Bridges they'd come up with the documentation he wants!
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
We're seeing a Stalinist government showing just how despotic they can be!
Rich80105
2020-05-09 04:09:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:02:30 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, they are saying we are giving you a huge amount of information,
but we don't want to lead you in what you make of it, or to answer
questions where the answers are in the papers.
Post by Tony
What is happening to democracy?
We are seeing open democracy in practice - keep the population
informed that they will give you their support. That is what is
happening, is it not, Tony?
Sorry I got that wrong that is not what is happening, I will try better
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Gordon
2020-05-09 02:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Tony
2020-05-09 02:39:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour at all
times and flag it - as in this case.
Rich80105
2020-05-09 03:33:58 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour at all
times and flag it - as in this case.
So you are objecting to the information not being released earlier,
then objecting to it being released - but which part of what the
government has done is in your voew undemocratic, Tony? Deciding not
to answer questions until reporters have had a chance to read it? Or
perhaps you thought they should have read it to the media?

I suspect that part of it is the times we have just been through - the
government spent a lot of time deciding what to do, to read a vast
amount of material, and to make decisions based on changing, and
possibly at times conflicint advice and priorities. We appear to have
now moved from having to take actions where there were a number of
alternatives, any of which could have proved to be wrong or
sub-optimal. It was noticeable that the Prime Minister refused to
answer on topics other than Covid-19 for quite a long time, as that
subject was taking most of government's time.

We are not in a situation where at least some public servants, and the
Prime Minister herself, have had time to address the build up of OIA
requests, but also to see that actions that were taken had been
properly documented - and when that had been put together to have
authorised the release. There would have been a natural reluctance to
do that in stages during some of the past weeks, as the re-hashing of
old material and second-guessing and cherry picking of advice would
not have been helpful to decisions still needing to be made. I am
hopeful that we are now emerging from the crisis, and that decisions
on moving to lower levels may still not be easy, they will not be as
contentious as those until we were able to move from level 4.

A lot of the material now released is well within the time for any OIA
request, and indeed some of it may not have been asked for, but
releasing a coherent package does seem to me to be more likely to get
coherent analysis from at least some media. Already Radio New Zealand
seem to have done a good job on starting to go through the papers.

So yes, this possibly is the most open and transparent government ever
in relation to this crisis at least.

It will however take some time for the material now avaialble to be
absorbed and analysed, and it is clear that will not be done by some
posters to nz.general.
Tony
2020-05-09 03:46:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour at all
times and flag it - as in this case.
So you are objecting to the information not being released earlier,
then objecting to it being released
No I am not. Read the article, that is what I am objecting to - the government
by way of the PM requiring Ministers to not engage with questions from the
press (or anywhere else). Do try to keep on topic.
Post by Rich80105
- but which part of what the
government has done is in your voew undemocratic, Tony? Deciding not
to answer questions until reporters have had a chance to read it? Or
perhaps you thought they should have read it to the media?
I suspect that part of it is the times we have just been through - the
government spent a lot of time deciding what to do, to read a vast
amount of material, and to make decisions based on changing, and
possibly at times conflicint advice and priorities. We appear to have
now moved from having to take actions where there were a number of
alternatives, any of which could have proved to be wrong or
sub-optimal. It was noticeable that the Prime Minister refused to
answer on topics other than Covid-19 for quite a long time, as that
subject was taking most of government's time.
Nonsense and off topic
Post by Rich80105
We are not in a situation where at least some public servants, and the
Prime Minister herself, have had time to address the build up of OIA
requests, but also to see that actions that were taken had been
properly documented - and when that had been put together to have
authorised the release. There would have been a natural reluctance to
do that in stages during some of the past weeks, as the re-hashing of
old material and second-guessing and cherry picking of advice would
not have been helpful to decisions still needing to be made. I am
hopeful that we are now emerging from the crisis, and that decisions
on moving to lower levels may still not be easy, they will not be as
contentious as those until we were able to move from level 4.
Absolutely off topic, this was a deliberate instruction to not engage. Period!
Post by Rich80105
A lot of the material now released is well within the time for any OIA
request, and indeed some of it may not have been asked for, but
releasing a coherent package does seem to me to be more likely to get
coherent analysis from at least some media. Already Radio New Zealand
seem to have done a good job on starting to go through the papers.
Off topic
Post by Rich80105
So yes, this possibly is the most open and transparent government ever
in relation to this crisis at least.
Nonsense.
Post by Rich80105
It will however take some time for the material now avaialble to be
absorbed and analysed, and it is clear that will not be done by some
posters to nz.general.
Irrelevant and off topic.
Rich80105
2020-05-09 03:59:29 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 May 2020 22:46:41 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour at all
times and flag it - as in this case.
So you are objecting to the information not being released earlier,
then objecting to it being released
No I am not. Read the article, that is what I am objecting to - the government
by way of the PM requiring Ministers to not engage with questions from the
press (or anywhere else). Do try to keep on topic.
Oh is that all? Then perhaps you could explain why instructions to
ministers (on whatever topic) are inconsistent with democracy or
democratic behaviour. It is clear that similar instructions or
internal rules have applied within every other government in living
memory. Given that a large amount of information had been made
available to the media (instead of drip-fed to favoured "reporters" as
we know has been the case in the past) is it not a normal part of
political management to ensure that answers are given only by the one
person likely to have previously seen all of those papers, the Prime
Minister? There is no restriction on what the media do with the
papers, no shutting down of discussion for anything but a short time,
but I suspect giving a welcome relief to a government that still has
somedifficult decisions to make in just a few short days - they quite
reasonable wan to concentrate on making the right decisions now rather
than have time wasted by re-hashing decisions that are no past.

So just what is your beef, Tony? Would you have preferred there to
have not been a leak? This is normal control of the time available
to the Prime Minister and Cabinet when there are still some critical
decisions to be made in relation to the Covid-19 crisis - those
decisions take precedence over helping a journalist write a story
about papers that are readily available.

This is democracy in action, Tony; the only actions inconsistent with
democracy appear to be your deliberate mis-characterisation of normal
democratic processes.
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- but which part of what the
government has done is in your voew undemocratic, Tony? Deciding not
to answer questions until reporters have had a chance to read it? Or
perhaps you thought they should have read it to the media?
I suspect that part of it is the times we have just been through - the
government spent a lot of time deciding what to do, to read a vast
amount of material, and to make decisions based on changing, and
possibly at times conflicint advice and priorities. We appear to have
now moved from having to take actions where there were a number of
alternatives, any of which could have proved to be wrong or
sub-optimal. It was noticeable that the Prime Minister refused to
answer on topics other than Covid-19 for quite a long time, as that
subject was taking most of government's time.
Nonsense and off topic
Post by Rich80105
We are not in a situation where at least some public servants, and the
Prime Minister herself, have had time to address the build up of OIA
requests, but also to see that actions that were taken had been
properly documented - and when that had been put together to have
authorised the release. There would have been a natural reluctance to
do that in stages during some of the past weeks, as the re-hashing of
old material and second-guessing and cherry picking of advice would
not have been helpful to decisions still needing to be made. I am
hopeful that we are now emerging from the crisis, and that decisions
on moving to lower levels may still not be easy, they will not be as
contentious as those until we were able to move from level 4.
Absolutely off topic, this was a deliberate instruction to not engage. Period!
Post by Rich80105
A lot of the material now released is well within the time for any OIA
request, and indeed some of it may not have been asked for, but
releasing a coherent package does seem to me to be more likely to get
coherent analysis from at least some media. Already Radio New Zealand
seem to have done a good job on starting to go through the papers.
Off topic
Post by Rich80105
So yes, this possibly is the most open and transparent government ever
in relation to this crisis at least.
Nonsense.
Post by Rich80105
It will however take some time for the material now avaialble to be
absorbed and analysed, and it is clear that will not be done by some
posters to nz.general.
Irrelevant and off topic.
Tony
2020-05-09 04:06:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 22:46:41 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour at all
times and flag it - as in this case.
So you are objecting to the information not being released earlier,
then objecting to it being released
No I am not. Read the article, that is what I am objecting to - the government
by way of the PM requiring Ministers to not engage with questions from the
press (or anywhere else). Do try to keep on topic.
Oh is that all? Then perhaps you could explain why instructions to
ministers (on whatever topic) are inconsistent with democracy or
democratic behaviour. It is clear that similar instructions or
internal rules have applied within every other government in living
memory. Given that a large amount of information had been made
available to the media (instead of drip-fed to favoured "reporters" as
we know has been the case in the past) is it not a normal part of
political management to ensure that answers are given only by the one
person likely to have previously seen all of those papers, the Prime
Minister? There is no restriction on what the media do with the
papers, no shutting down of discussion for anything but a short time,
but I suspect giving a welcome relief to a government that still has
somedifficult decisions to make in just a few short days - they quite
reasonable wan to concentrate on making the right decisions now rather
than have time wasted by re-hashing decisions that are no past.
So just what is your beef, Tony? Would you have preferred there to
have not been a leak? This is normal control of the time available
to the Prime Minister and Cabinet when there are still some critical
decisions to be made in relation to the Covid-19 crisis - those
decisions take precedence over helping a journalist write a story
about papers that are readily available.
This is democracy in action, Tony; the only actions inconsistent with
democracy appear to be your deliberate mis-characterisation of normal
democratic processes.
Liar
Democracy in action would result in Ministers not being instructed to ignore
questions from the press. Or is that neyond your comprehension?
Are you a communist, or fascist or merely a lover of the North Korean
dictatorship?
You are the only poster in this thread that does not agree that we should have
an open governmment, as promised more than once. The only one.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- but which part of what the
government has done is in your voew undemocratic, Tony? Deciding not
to answer questions until reporters have had a chance to read it? Or
perhaps you thought they should have read it to the media?
I suspect that part of it is the times we have just been through - the
government spent a lot of time deciding what to do, to read a vast
amount of material, and to make decisions based on changing, and
possibly at times conflicint advice and priorities. We appear to have
now moved from having to take actions where there were a number of
alternatives, any of which could have proved to be wrong or
sub-optimal. It was noticeable that the Prime Minister refused to
answer on topics other than Covid-19 for quite a long time, as that
subject was taking most of government's time.
Nonsense and off topic
Post by Rich80105
We are not in a situation where at least some public servants, and the
Prime Minister herself, have had time to address the build up of OIA
requests, but also to see that actions that were taken had been
properly documented - and when that had been put together to have
authorised the release. There would have been a natural reluctance to
do that in stages during some of the past weeks, as the re-hashing of
old material and second-guessing and cherry picking of advice would
not have been helpful to decisions still needing to be made. I am
hopeful that we are now emerging from the crisis, and that decisions
on moving to lower levels may still not be easy, they will not be as
contentious as those until we were able to move from level 4.
Absolutely off topic, this was a deliberate instruction to not engage. Period!
Post by Rich80105
A lot of the material now released is well within the time for any OIA
request, and indeed some of it may not have been asked for, but
releasing a coherent package does seem to me to be more likely to get
coherent analysis from at least some media. Already Radio New Zealand
seem to have done a good job on starting to go through the papers.
Off topic
Post by Rich80105
So yes, this possibly is the most open and transparent government ever
in relation to this crisis at least.
Nonsense.
Post by Rich80105
It will however take some time for the material now avaialble to be
absorbed and analysed, and it is clear that will not be done by some
posters to nz.general.
Irrelevant and off topic.
Rich80105
2020-05-09 05:49:24 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 May 2020 23:06:53 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 22:46:41 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour at all
times and flag it - as in this case.
So you are objecting to the information not being released earlier,
then objecting to it being released
No I am not. Read the article, that is what I am objecting to - the government
by way of the PM requiring Ministers to not engage with questions from the
press (or anywhere else). Do try to keep on topic.
Oh is that all? Then perhaps you could explain why instructions to
ministers (on whatever topic) are inconsistent with democracy or
democratic behaviour. It is clear that similar instructions or
internal rules have applied within every other government in living
memory. Given that a large amount of information had been made
available to the media (instead of drip-fed to favoured "reporters" as
we know has been the case in the past) is it not a normal part of
political management to ensure that answers are given only by the one
person likely to have previously seen all of those papers, the Prime
Minister? There is no restriction on what the media do with the
papers, no shutting down of discussion for anything but a short time,
but I suspect giving a welcome relief to a government that still has
somedifficult decisions to make in just a few short days - they quite
reasonable wan to concentrate on making the right decisions now rather
than have time wasted by re-hashing decisions that are no past.
So just what is your beef, Tony? Would you have preferred there to
have not been a leak? This is normal control of the time available
to the Prime Minister and Cabinet when there are still some critical
decisions to be made in relation to the Covid-19 crisis - those
decisions take precedence over helping a journalist write a story
about papers that are readily available.
This is democracy in action, Tony; the only actions inconsistent with
democracy appear to be your deliberate mis-characterisation of normal
democratic processes.
Liar
Democracy in action would result in Ministers not being instructed to ignore
questions from the press. Or is that neyond your comprehension?
They have not been asked to ignore questions from the press - it
appears that this fact is indeed beyond your comprehension.
Post by Tony
Are you a communist, or fascist or merely a lover of the North Korean
dictatorship?
None of those - you may have noticed that your views are consistently
closer to those regimes than mine
Post by Tony
You are the only poster in this thread that does not agree that we should have
an open governmment, as promised more than once. The only one.
Liar.
I have never disagreed with our having open government, and certainly
the current government is a significant improvement on previous
governments int hat regard. They have just released a large amount of
correspondence and advice to cabinet relating ot an issue that is
still current! Restricting answers to the press to enquiries to the
minister responsible (in this case the prime minister) is the sort of
normal precaution that every organisation practices from time to time
- the Key government was famous for it.

So what are you left with - the government releases a huge amount of
information, and you are upset that the politicians don't want to
answer questions before the journalsist have read it, or that
questions will be answered by the responsible Minister.

So there is no "Attack on Democracy", no closed government, instead a
government that is more "open and transparent" than previous
governments. I suspect that if someone smiled at you, you would accuse
them of threatening behaviour.
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- but which part of what the
government has done is in your voew undemocratic, Tony? Deciding not
to answer questions until reporters have had a chance to read it? Or
perhaps you thought they should have read it to the media?
I suspect that part of it is the times we have just been through - the
government spent a lot of time deciding what to do, to read a vast
amount of material, and to make decisions based on changing, and
possibly at times conflicint advice and priorities. We appear to have
now moved from having to take actions where there were a number of
alternatives, any of which could have proved to be wrong or
sub-optimal. It was noticeable that the Prime Minister refused to
answer on topics other than Covid-19 for quite a long time, as that
subject was taking most of government's time.
Nonsense and off topic
Post by Rich80105
We are not in a situation where at least some public servants, and the
Prime Minister herself, have had time to address the build up of OIA
requests, but also to see that actions that were taken had been
properly documented - and when that had been put together to have
authorised the release. There would have been a natural reluctance to
do that in stages during some of the past weeks, as the re-hashing of
old material and second-guessing and cherry picking of advice would
not have been helpful to decisions still needing to be made. I am
hopeful that we are now emerging from the crisis, and that decisions
on moving to lower levels may still not be easy, they will not be as
contentious as those until we were able to move from level 4.
Absolutely off topic, this was a deliberate instruction to not engage. Period!
Post by Rich80105
A lot of the material now released is well within the time for any OIA
request, and indeed some of it may not have been asked for, but
releasing a coherent package does seem to me to be more likely to get
coherent analysis from at least some media. Already Radio New Zealand
seem to have done a good job on starting to go through the papers.
Off topic
Post by Rich80105
So yes, this possibly is the most open and transparent government ever
in relation to this crisis at least.
Nonsense.
Post by Rich80105
It will however take some time for the material now available to be
absorbed and analysed, and it is clear that will not be done by some
posters to nz.general.
Irrelevant and off topic.
Try looking at this:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/416190/covid-19-government-releases-hundreds-of-documents-on-its-response

Which does make a good start on that analysis

and for contrast
https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/the-hollow-men-2008
which covers a previous "open and transparent" government
Tony
2020-05-09 06:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 23:06:53 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 22:46:41 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour
at
all
times and flag it - as in this case.
So you are objecting to the information not being released earlier,
then objecting to it being released
No I am not. Read the article, that is what I am objecting to - the government
by way of the PM requiring Ministers to not engage with questions from the
press (or anywhere else). Do try to keep on topic.
Oh is that all? Then perhaps you could explain why instructions to
ministers (on whatever topic) are inconsistent with democracy or
democratic behaviour. It is clear that similar instructions or
internal rules have applied within every other government in living
memory. Given that a large amount of information had been made
available to the media (instead of drip-fed to favoured "reporters" as
we know has been the case in the past) is it not a normal part of
political management to ensure that answers are given only by the one
person likely to have previously seen all of those papers, the Prime
Minister? There is no restriction on what the media do with the
papers, no shutting down of discussion for anything but a short time,
but I suspect giving a welcome relief to a government that still has
somedifficult decisions to make in just a few short days - they quite
reasonable wan to concentrate on making the right decisions now rather
than have time wasted by re-hashing decisions that are no past.
So just what is your beef, Tony? Would you have preferred there to
have not been a leak? This is normal control of the time available
to the Prime Minister and Cabinet when there are still some critical
decisions to be made in relation to the Covid-19 crisis - those
decisions take precedence over helping a journalist write a story
about papers that are readily available.
This is democracy in action, Tony; the only actions inconsistent with
democracy appear to be your deliberate mis-characterisation of normal
democratic processes.
Liar
Democracy in action would result in Ministers not being instructed to ignore
questions from the press. Or is that neyond your comprehension?
They have not been asked to ignore questions from the press - it
appears that this fact is indeed beyond your comprehension.
Post by Tony
Are you a communist, or fascist or merely a lover of the North Korean
dictatorship?
None of those - you may have noticed that your views are consistently
closer to those regimes than mine
Post by Tony
You are the only poster in this thread that does not agree that we should have
an open governmment, as promised more than once. The only one.
Liar.
I have never disagreed with our having open government, and certainly
the current government is a significant improvement on previous
governments int hat regard. They have just released a large amount of
correspondence and advice to cabinet relating ot an issue that is
still current! Restricting answers to the press to enquiries to the
minister responsible (in this case the prime minister) is the sort of
normal precaution that every organisation practices from time to time
- the Key government was famous for it.
There you go, you have to blame a previous government for the failures of this
one.
The Ministers of this government were instructed to not engage with the press.
That is effectiively ignoring them.
Your intent to distract has failed and nobody here agrees with you.
Post by Rich80105
So what are you left with - the government releases a huge amount of
information, and you are upset that the politicians don't want to
answer questions before the journalsist have read it, or that
questions will be answered by the responsible Minister.
So there is no "Attack on Democracy", no closed government, instead a
government that is more "open and transparent" than previous
governments. I suspect that if someone smiled at you, you would accuse
them of threatening behaviour.
Abusive prick.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- but which part of what the
government has done is in your voew undemocratic, Tony? Deciding not
to answer questions until reporters have had a chance to read it? Or
perhaps you thought they should have read it to the media?
I suspect that part of it is the times we have just been through - the
government spent a lot of time deciding what to do, to read a vast
amount of material, and to make decisions based on changing, and
possibly at times conflicint advice and priorities. We appear to have
now moved from having to take actions where there were a number of
alternatives, any of which could have proved to be wrong or
sub-optimal. It was noticeable that the Prime Minister refused to
answer on topics other than Covid-19 for quite a long time, as that
subject was taking most of government's time.
Nonsense and off topic
Post by Rich80105
We are not in a situation where at least some public servants, and the
Prime Minister herself, have had time to address the build up of OIA
requests, but also to see that actions that were taken had been
properly documented - and when that had been put together to have
authorised the release. There would have been a natural reluctance to
do that in stages during some of the past weeks, as the re-hashing of
old material and second-guessing and cherry picking of advice would
not have been helpful to decisions still needing to be made. I am
hopeful that we are now emerging from the crisis, and that decisions
on moving to lower levels may still not be easy, they will not be as
contentious as those until we were able to move from level 4.
Absolutely off topic, this was a deliberate instruction to not engage. Period!
Post by Rich80105
A lot of the material now released is well within the time for any OIA
request, and indeed some of it may not have been asked for, but
releasing a coherent package does seem to me to be more likely to get
coherent analysis from at least some media. Already Radio New Zealand
seem to have done a good job on starting to go through the papers.
Off topic
Post by Rich80105
So yes, this possibly is the most open and transparent government ever
in relation to this crisis at least.
Nonsense.
Post by Rich80105
It will however take some time for the material now available to be
absorbed and analysed, and it is clear that will not be done by some
posters to nz.general.
Irrelevant and off topic.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/416190/covid-19-government-releases-hundreds-of-documents-on-its-response
Which does make a good start on that analysis
and for contrast
https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/the-hollow-men-2008
which covers a previous "open and transparent" government
Rich80105
2020-05-09 07:44:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 09 May 2020 01:36:44 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 23:06:53 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 22:46:41 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour
at
all
times and flag it - as in this case.
So you are objecting to the information not being released earlier,
then objecting to it being released
No I am not. Read the article, that is what I am objecting to - the government
by way of the PM requiring Ministers to not engage with questions from the
press (or anywhere else). Do try to keep on topic.
Oh is that all? Then perhaps you could explain why instructions to
ministers (on whatever topic) are inconsistent with democracy or
democratic behaviour. It is clear that similar instructions or
internal rules have applied within every other government in living
memory. Given that a large amount of information had been made
available to the media (instead of drip-fed to favoured "reporters" as
we know has been the case in the past) is it not a normal part of
political management to ensure that answers are given only by the one
person likely to have previously seen all of those papers, the Prime
Minister? There is no restriction on what the media do with the
papers, no shutting down of discussion for anything but a short time,
but I suspect giving a welcome relief to a government that still has
somedifficult decisions to make in just a few short days - they quite
reasonable wan to concentrate on making the right decisions now rather
than have time wasted by re-hashing decisions that are no past.
So just what is your beef, Tony? Would you have preferred there to
have not been a leak? This is normal control of the time available
to the Prime Minister and Cabinet when there are still some critical
decisions to be made in relation to the Covid-19 crisis - those
decisions take precedence over helping a journalist write a story
about papers that are readily available.
This is democracy in action, Tony; the only actions inconsistent with
democracy appear to be your deliberate mis-characterisation of normal
democratic processes.
Liar
Democracy in action would result in Ministers not being instructed to ignore
questions from the press. Or is that neyond your comprehension?
They have not been asked to ignore questions from the press - it
appears that this fact is indeed beyond your comprehension.
Post by Tony
Are you a communist, or fascist or merely a lover of the North Korean
dictatorship?
None of those - you may have noticed that your views are consistently
closer to those regimes than mine
Post by Tony
You are the only poster in this thread that does not agree that we should have
an open governmment, as promised more than once. The only one.
Liar.
I have never disagreed with our having open government, and certainly
the current government is a significant improvement on previous
governments int hat regard. They have just released a large amount of
correspondence and advice to cabinet relating ot an issue that is
still current! Restricting answers to the press to enquiries to the
minister responsible (in this case the prime minister) is the sort of
normal precaution that every organisation practices from time to time
- the Key government was famous for it.
There you go, you have to blame a previous government for the failures of this
one.
I have not done that at all - I have demonstrated to you that the
convention of a government deciding who would speak on behalf of the
government on specific issue is long standing - and has been practiced
by different governments.
Post by Tony
The Ministers of this government were instructed to not engage with the press.
That is the second time you have lied about what they were told what
to do - they can and have engaged with the press on other issues, but
the spokesperson for this issue is the Minister responsible. Quite
straightfarward really but you are determined to misunderstand.
Post by Tony
That is effectiively ignoring them.
No it is not.
Post by Tony
Your intent to distract has failed and nobody here agrees with you.
You have implied somethng similar before, but you have no proof of
that statement - it is a worthless opinion.
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
So what are you left with - the government releases a huge amount of
information, and you are upset that the politicians don't want to
answer questions before the journalsist have read it, or that
questions will be answered by the responsible Minister.
So there is no "Attack on Democracy", no closed government, instead a
government that is more "open and transparent" than previous
governments. I suspect that if someone smiled at you, you would accuse
them of threatening behaviour.
Abusive prick.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- but which part of what the
government has done is in your voew undemocratic, Tony? Deciding not
to answer questions until reporters have had a chance to read it? Or
perhaps you thought they should have read it to the media?
I suspect that part of it is the times we have just been through - the
government spent a lot of time deciding what to do, to read a vast
amount of material, and to make decisions based on changing, and
possibly at times conflicint advice and priorities. We appear to have
now moved from having to take actions where there were a number of
alternatives, any of which could have proved to be wrong or
sub-optimal. It was noticeable that the Prime Minister refused to
answer on topics other than Covid-19 for quite a long time, as that
subject was taking most of government's time.
Nonsense and off topic
Post by Rich80105
We are not in a situation where at least some public servants, and the
Prime Minister herself, have had time to address the build up of OIA
requests, but also to see that actions that were taken had been
properly documented - and when that had been put together to have
authorised the release. There would have been a natural reluctance to
do that in stages during some of the past weeks, as the re-hashing of
old material and second-guessing and cherry picking of advice would
not have been helpful to decisions still needing to be made. I am
hopeful that we are now emerging from the crisis, and that decisions
on moving to lower levels may still not be easy, they will not be as
contentious as those until we were able to move from level 4.
Absolutely off topic, this was a deliberate instruction to not engage. Period!
Post by Rich80105
A lot of the material now released is well within the time for any OIA
request, and indeed some of it may not have been asked for, but
releasing a coherent package does seem to me to be more likely to get
coherent analysis from at least some media. Already Radio New Zealand
seem to have done a good job on starting to go through the papers.
Off topic
Post by Rich80105
So yes, this possibly is the most open and transparent government ever
in relation to this crisis at least.
Nonsense.
Post by Rich80105
It will however take some time for the material now available to be
absorbed and analysed, and it is clear that will not be done by some
posters to nz.general.
Irrelevant and off topic.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/416190/covid-19-government-releases-hundreds-of-documents-on-its-response
Which does make a good start on that analysis
and for contrast
https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/the-hollow-men-2008
which covers a previous "open and transparent" government
Tony
2020-05-09 20:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 09 May 2020 01:36:44 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 23:06:53 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 22:46:41 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I
could
not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing -
is
that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour
at
all
times and flag it - as in this case.
So you are objecting to the information not being released earlier,
then objecting to it being released
No I am not. Read the article, that is what I am objecting to - the government
by way of the PM requiring Ministers to not engage with questions from the
press (or anywhere else). Do try to keep on topic.
Oh is that all? Then perhaps you could explain why instructions to
ministers (on whatever topic) are inconsistent with democracy or
democratic behaviour. It is clear that similar instructions or
internal rules have applied within every other government in living
memory. Given that a large amount of information had been made
available to the media (instead of drip-fed to favoured "reporters" as
we know has been the case in the past) is it not a normal part of
political management to ensure that answers are given only by the one
person likely to have previously seen all of those papers, the Prime
Minister? There is no restriction on what the media do with the
papers, no shutting down of discussion for anything but a short time,
but I suspect giving a welcome relief to a government that still has
somedifficult decisions to make in just a few short days - they quite
reasonable wan to concentrate on making the right decisions now rather
than have time wasted by re-hashing decisions that are no past.
So just what is your beef, Tony? Would you have preferred there to
have not been a leak? This is normal control of the time available
to the Prime Minister and Cabinet when there are still some critical
decisions to be made in relation to the Covid-19 crisis - those
decisions take precedence over helping a journalist write a story
about papers that are readily available.
This is democracy in action, Tony; the only actions inconsistent with
democracy appear to be your deliberate mis-characterisation of normal
democratic processes.
Liar
Democracy in action would result in Ministers not being instructed to ignore
questions from the press. Or is that neyond your comprehension?
They have not been asked to ignore questions from the press - it
appears that this fact is indeed beyond your comprehension.
Post by Tony
Are you a communist, or fascist or merely a lover of the North Korean
dictatorship?
None of those - you may have noticed that your views are consistently
closer to those regimes than mine
Post by Tony
You are the only poster in this thread that does not agree that we should have
an open governmment, as promised more than once. The only one.
Liar.
I have never disagreed with our having open government, and certainly
the current government is a significant improvement on previous
governments int hat regard. They have just released a large amount of
correspondence and advice to cabinet relating ot an issue that is
still current! Restricting answers to the press to enquiries to the
minister responsible (in this case the prime minister) is the sort of
normal precaution that every organisation practices from time to time
- the Key government was famous for it.
There you go, you have to blame a previous government for the failures of this
one.
I have not done that at all - I have demonstrated to you that the
convention of a government deciding who would speak on behalf of the
government on specific issue is long standing - and has been practiced
by different governments.
Post by Tony
The Ministers of this government were instructed to not engage with the press.
That is the second time you have lied about what they were told what
to do - they can and have engaged with the press on other issues, but
the spokesperson for this issue is the Minister responsible. Quite
straightfarward really but you are determined to misunderstand.
No you are the liar. They have issued what is effectively a gag order and you
know it. That is not an opinion - it is fact.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
That is effectiively ignoring them.
No it is not.
Post by Tony
Your intent to distract has failed and nobody here agrees with you.
You have implied somethng similar before, but you have no proof of
that statement - it is a worthless opinion.
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
So what are you left with - the government releases a huge amount of
information, and you are upset that the politicians don't want to
answer questions before the journalsist have read it, or that
questions will be answered by the responsible Minister.
So there is no "Attack on Democracy", no closed government, instead a
government that is more "open and transparent" than previous
governments. I suspect that if someone smiled at you, you would accuse
them of threatening behaviour.
Abusive prick.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- but which part of what the
government has done is in your voew undemocratic, Tony? Deciding not
to answer questions until reporters have had a chance to read it? Or
perhaps you thought they should have read it to the media?
I suspect that part of it is the times we have just been through - the
government spent a lot of time deciding what to do, to read a vast
amount of material, and to make decisions based on changing, and
possibly at times conflicint advice and priorities. We appear to have
now moved from having to take actions where there were a number of
alternatives, any of which could have proved to be wrong or
sub-optimal. It was noticeable that the Prime Minister refused to
answer on topics other than Covid-19 for quite a long time, as that
subject was taking most of government's time.
Nonsense and off topic
Post by Rich80105
We are not in a situation where at least some public servants, and the
Prime Minister herself, have had time to address the build up of OIA
requests, but also to see that actions that were taken had been
properly documented - and when that had been put together to have
authorised the release. There would have been a natural reluctance to
do that in stages during some of the past weeks, as the re-hashing of
old material and second-guessing and cherry picking of advice would
not have been helpful to decisions still needing to be made. I am
hopeful that we are now emerging from the crisis, and that decisions
on moving to lower levels may still not be easy, they will not be as
contentious as those until we were able to move from level 4.
Absolutely off topic, this was a deliberate instruction to not engage. Period!
Post by Rich80105
A lot of the material now released is well within the time for any OIA
request, and indeed some of it may not have been asked for, but
releasing a coherent package does seem to me to be more likely to get
coherent analysis from at least some media. Already Radio New Zealand
seem to have done a good job on starting to go through the papers.
Off topic
Post by Rich80105
So yes, this possibly is the most open and transparent government ever
in relation to this crisis at least.
Nonsense.
Post by Rich80105
It will however take some time for the material now available to be
absorbed and analysed, and it is clear that will not be done by some
posters to nz.general.
Irrelevant and off topic.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/416190/covid-19-government-releases-hundreds-of-documents-on-its-response
Which does make a good start on that analysis
and for contrast
https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/the-hollow-men-2008
which covers a previous "open and transparent" government
John Bowes
2020-05-09 22:16:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 09 May 2020 01:36:44 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 23:06:53 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 22:46:41 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
More like most deceptive, arrogant and condescending government
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I
could
not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing -
is
that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is
that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour
at
all
times and flag it - as in this case.
So you are objecting to the information not being released earlier,
then objecting to it being released
No I am not. Read the article, that is what I am objecting to - the government
by way of the PM requiring Ministers to not engage with questions from the
press (or anywhere else). Do try to keep on topic.
Oh is that all? Then perhaps you could explain why instructions to
ministers (on whatever topic) are inconsistent with democracy or
democratic behaviour. It is clear that similar instructions or
internal rules have applied within every other government in living
memory. Given that a large amount of information had been made
available to the media (instead of drip-fed to favoured "reporters" as
we know has been the case in the past) is it not a normal part of
political management to ensure that answers are given only by the one
person likely to have previously seen all of those papers, the Prime
Minister? There is no restriction on what the media do with the
papers, no shutting down of discussion for anything but a short time,
but I suspect giving a welcome relief to a government that still has
somedifficult decisions to make in just a few short days - they quite
reasonable wan to concentrate on making the right decisions now rather
than have time wasted by re-hashing decisions that are no past.
So just what is your beef, Tony? Would you have preferred there to
have not been a leak? This is normal control of the time available
to the Prime Minister and Cabinet when there are still some critical
decisions to be made in relation to the Covid-19 crisis - those
decisions take precedence over helping a journalist write a story
about papers that are readily available.
This is democracy in action, Tony; the only actions inconsistent with
democracy appear to be your deliberate mis-characterisation of normal
democratic processes.
Liar
Democracy in action would result in Ministers not being instructed to ignore
questions from the press. Or is that neyond your comprehension?
They have not been asked to ignore questions from the press - it
appears that this fact is indeed beyond your comprehension.
Post by Tony
Are you a communist, or fascist or merely a lover of the North Korean
dictatorship?
None of those - you may have noticed that your views are consistently
closer to those regimes than mine
Post by Tony
You are the only poster in this thread that does not agree that we should have
an open governmment, as promised more than once. The only one.
Liar.
I have never disagreed with our having open government, and certainly
the current government is a significant improvement on previous
governments int hat regard. They have just released a large amount of
correspondence and advice to cabinet relating ot an issue that is
still current! Restricting answers to the press to enquiries to the
minister responsible (in this case the prime minister) is the sort of
normal precaution that every organisation practices from time to time
- the Key government was famous for it.
There you go, you have to blame a previous government for the failures of this
one.
I have not done that at all - I have demonstrated to you that the
convention of a government deciding who would speak on behalf of the
government on specific issue is long standing - and has been practiced
by different governments.
Post by Tony
The Ministers of this government were instructed to not engage with the press.
That is the second time you have lied about what they were told what
to do - they can and have engaged with the press on other issues, but
the spokesperson for this issue is the Minister responsible. Quite
straightfarward really but you are determined to misunderstand.
No you are the liar. They have issued what is effectively a gag order and you
know it. That is not an opinion - it is fact.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
That is effectiively ignoring them.
No it is not.
Post by Tony
Your intent to distract has failed and nobody here agrees with you.
You have implied somethng similar before, but you have no proof of
that statement - it is a worthless opinion.
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
So what are you left with - the government releases a huge amount of
information, and you are upset that the politicians don't want to
answer questions before the journalsist have read it, or that
questions will be answered by the responsible Minister.
So there is no "Attack on Democracy", no closed government, instead a
government that is more "open and transparent" than previous
governments. I suspect that if someone smiled at you, you would accuse
them of threatening behaviour.
Abusive prick.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
- but which part of what the
government has done is in your voew undemocratic, Tony? Deciding not
to answer questions until reporters have had a chance to read it? Or
perhaps you thought they should have read it to the media?
I suspect that part of it is the times we have just been through - the
government spent a lot of time deciding what to do, to read a vast
amount of material, and to make decisions based on changing, and
possibly at times conflicint advice and priorities. We appear to have
now moved from having to take actions where there were a number of
alternatives, any of which could have proved to be wrong or
sub-optimal. It was noticeable that the Prime Minister refused to
answer on topics other than Covid-19 for quite a long time, as that
subject was taking most of government's time.
Nonsense and off topic
Post by Rich80105
We are not in a situation where at least some public servants, and the
Prime Minister herself, have had time to address the build up of OIA
requests, but also to see that actions that were taken had been
properly documented - and when that had been put together to have
authorised the release. There would have been a natural reluctance to
do that in stages during some of the past weeks, as the re-hashing of
old material and second-guessing and cherry picking of advice would
not have been helpful to decisions still needing to be made. I am
hopeful that we are now emerging from the crisis, and that decisions
on moving to lower levels may still not be easy, they will not be as
contentious as those until we were able to move from level 4.
Absolutely off topic, this was a deliberate instruction to not engage. Period!
Post by Rich80105
A lot of the material now released is well within the time for any OIA
request, and indeed some of it may not have been asked for, but
releasing a coherent package does seem to me to be more likely to get
coherent analysis from at least some media. Already Radio New Zealand
seem to have done a good job on starting to go through the papers.
Off topic
Post by Rich80105
So yes, this possibly is the most open and transparent government ever
in relation to this crisis at least.
Nonsense.
Post by Rich80105
It will however take some time for the material now available to be
absorbed and analysed, and it is clear that will not be done by some
posters to nz.general.
Irrelevant and off topic.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/416190/covid-19-government-releases-hundreds-of-documents-on-its-response
Which does make a good start on that analysis
and for contrast
https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/the-hollow-men-2008
which covers a previous "open and transparent" government
Remember Tony, Rich believe this government can do no wrong no matter how often they trample on our freedoms or show their desire to control every aspect of our lives!
Tony
2020-05-09 20:45:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 09 May 2020 01:36:44 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 23:06:53 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 22:46:41 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I
could
not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing -
is
that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour
at
all
times and flag it - as in this case.
So you are objecting to the information not being released earlier,
then objecting to it being released
No I am not. Read the article, that is what I am objecting to - the government
by way of the PM requiring Ministers to not engage with questions from the
press (or anywhere else). Do try to keep on topic.
Oh is that all? Then perhaps you could explain why instructions to
ministers (on whatever topic) are inconsistent with democracy or
democratic behaviour. It is clear that similar instructions or
internal rules have applied within every other government in living
memory. Given that a large amount of information had been made
available to the media (instead of drip-fed to favoured "reporters" as
we know has been the case in the past) is it not a normal part of
political management to ensure that answers are given only by the one
person likely to have previously seen all of those papers, the Prime
Minister? There is no restriction on what the media do with the
papers, no shutting down of discussion for anything but a short time,
but I suspect giving a welcome relief to a government that still has
somedifficult decisions to make in just a few short days - they quite
reasonable wan to concentrate on making the right decisions now rather
than have time wasted by re-hashing decisions that are no past.
So just what is your beef, Tony? Would you have preferred there to
have not been a leak? This is normal control of the time available
to the Prime Minister and Cabinet when there are still some critical
decisions to be made in relation to the Covid-19 crisis - those
decisions take precedence over helping a journalist write a story
about papers that are readily available.
This is democracy in action, Tony; the only actions inconsistent with
democracy appear to be your deliberate mis-characterisation of normal
democratic processes.
Liar
Democracy in action would result in Ministers not being instructed to ignore
questions from the press. Or is that neyond your comprehension?
They have not been asked to ignore questions from the press - it
appears that this fact is indeed beyond your comprehension.
Post by Tony
Are you a communist, or fascist or merely a lover of the North Korean
dictatorship?
None of those - you may have noticed that your views are consistently
closer to those regimes than mine
Post by Tony
You are the only poster in this thread that does not agree that we should have
an open governmment, as promised more than once. The only one.
Liar.
I have never disagreed with our having open government, and certainly
the current government is a significant improvement on previous
governments int hat regard. They have just released a large amount of
correspondence and advice to cabinet relating ot an issue that is
still current! Restricting answers to the press to enquiries to the
minister responsible (in this case the prime minister) is the sort of
normal precaution that every organisation practices from time to time
- the Key government was famous for it.
There you go, you have to blame a previous government for the failures of this
one.
I have not done that at all - I have demonstrated to you that the
convention of a government deciding who would speak on behalf of the
government on specific issue is long standing - and has been practiced
by different governments.
Post by Tony
The Ministers of this government were instructed to not engage with the press.
That is the second time you have lied about what they were told what
to do - they can and have engaged with the press on other issues, but
the spokesperson for this issue is the Minister responsible. Quite
straightfarward really but you are determined to misunderstand.
Post by Tony
That is effectiively ignoring them.
No it is not.
Post by Tony
Your intent to distract has failed and nobody here agrees with you.
You have implied somethng similar before, but you have no proof of
that statement - it is a worthless opinion.
<snipped for brevity>
And here is a relevant opinion.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121463969/are-these-the-first-signs-of-third-term-arrogance-from-a-first-term-government
Tony
2020-05-09 21:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 09 May 2020 01:36:44 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 23:06:53 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 22:46:41 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I
could
not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing -
is
that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing -
is
that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour
at
all
times and flag it - as in this case.
So you are objecting to the information not being released earlier,
then objecting to it being released
No I am not. Read the article, that is what I am objecting to - the government
by way of the PM requiring Ministers to not engage with questions from the
press (or anywhere else). Do try to keep on topic.
Oh is that all? Then perhaps you could explain why instructions to
ministers (on whatever topic) are inconsistent with democracy or
democratic behaviour. It is clear that similar instructions or
internal rules have applied within every other government in living
memory. Given that a large amount of information had been made
available to the media (instead of drip-fed to favoured "reporters" as
we know has been the case in the past) is it not a normal part of
political management to ensure that answers are given only by the one
person likely to have previously seen all of those papers, the Prime
Minister? There is no restriction on what the media do with the
papers, no shutting down of discussion for anything but a short time,
but I suspect giving a welcome relief to a government that still has
somedifficult decisions to make in just a few short days - they quite
reasonable wan to concentrate on making the right decisions now rather
than have time wasted by re-hashing decisions that are no past.
So just what is your beef, Tony? Would you have preferred there to
have not been a leak? This is normal control of the time available
to the Prime Minister and Cabinet when there are still some critical
decisions to be made in relation to the Covid-19 crisis - those
decisions take precedence over helping a journalist write a story
about papers that are readily available.
This is democracy in action, Tony; the only actions inconsistent with
democracy appear to be your deliberate mis-characterisation of normal
democratic processes.
Liar
Democracy in action would result in Ministers not being instructed to ignore
questions from the press. Or is that neyond your comprehension?
They have not been asked to ignore questions from the press - it
appears that this fact is indeed beyond your comprehension.
Post by Tony
Are you a communist, or fascist or merely a lover of the North Korean
dictatorship?
None of those - you may have noticed that your views are consistently
closer to those regimes than mine
Post by Tony
You are the only poster in this thread that does not agree that we should have
an open governmment, as promised more than once. The only one.
Liar.
I have never disagreed with our having open government, and certainly
the current government is a significant improvement on previous
governments int hat regard. They have just released a large amount of
correspondence and advice to cabinet relating ot an issue that is
still current! Restricting answers to the press to enquiries to the
minister responsible (in this case the prime minister) is the sort of
normal precaution that every organisation practices from time to time
- the Key government was famous for it.
There you go, you have to blame a previous government for the failures of this
one.
I have not done that at all - I have demonstrated to you that the
convention of a government deciding who would speak on behalf of the
government on specific issue is long standing - and has been practiced
by different governments.
Post by Tony
The Ministers of this government were instructed to not engage with the press.
That is the second time you have lied about what they were told what
to do - they can and have engaged with the press on other issues, but
the spokesperson for this issue is the Minister responsible. Quite
straightfarward really but you are determined to misunderstand.
Post by Tony
That is effectiively ignoring them.
No it is not.
Post by Tony
Your intent to distract has failed and nobody here agrees with you.
You have implied somethng similar before, but you have no proof of
that statement - it is a worthless opinion.
<snipped for brevity>
And here is a relevant opinion.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121463969/are-these-the-first-signs-of-third-term-arrogance-from-a-first-term-government
And here
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330745
It seems that nobody agrees with your attempts to excuse the inexcusable.
Tony
2020-05-09 21:56:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 09 May 2020 01:36:44 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 23:06:53 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 22:46:41 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
More like most deceptive, arrogant and condescending government
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I
could
not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing -
is
that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing -
is
that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour
at
all
times and flag it - as in this case.
So you are objecting to the information not being released earlier,
then objecting to it being released
No I am not. Read the article, that is what I am objecting to - the government
by way of the PM requiring Ministers to not engage with questions from the
press (or anywhere else). Do try to keep on topic.
Oh is that all? Then perhaps you could explain why instructions to
ministers (on whatever topic) are inconsistent with democracy or
democratic behaviour. It is clear that similar instructions or
internal rules have applied within every other government in living
memory. Given that a large amount of information had been made
available to the media (instead of drip-fed to favoured "reporters" as
we know has been the case in the past) is it not a normal part of
political management to ensure that answers are given only by the one
person likely to have previously seen all of those papers, the Prime
Minister? There is no restriction on what the media do with the
papers, no shutting down of discussion for anything but a short time,
but I suspect giving a welcome relief to a government that still has
somedifficult decisions to make in just a few short days - they quite
reasonable wan to concentrate on making the right decisions now rather
than have time wasted by re-hashing decisions that are no past.
So just what is your beef, Tony? Would you have preferred there to
have not been a leak? This is normal control of the time available
to the Prime Minister and Cabinet when there are still some critical
decisions to be made in relation to the Covid-19 crisis - those
decisions take precedence over helping a journalist write a story
about papers that are readily available.
This is democracy in action, Tony; the only actions inconsistent with
democracy appear to be your deliberate mis-characterisation of normal
democratic processes.
Liar
Democracy in action would result in Ministers not being instructed to ignore
questions from the press. Or is that neyond your comprehension?
They have not been asked to ignore questions from the press - it
appears that this fact is indeed beyond your comprehension.
Post by Tony
Are you a communist, or fascist or merely a lover of the North Korean
dictatorship?
None of those - you may have noticed that your views are consistently
closer to those regimes than mine
Post by Tony
You are the only poster in this thread that does not agree that we should have
an open governmment, as promised more than once. The only one.
Liar.
I have never disagreed with our having open government, and certainly
the current government is a significant improvement on previous
governments int hat regard. They have just released a large amount of
correspondence and advice to cabinet relating ot an issue that is
still current! Restricting answers to the press to enquiries to the
minister responsible (in this case the prime minister) is the sort of
normal precaution that every organisation practices from time to time
- the Key government was famous for it.
There you go, you have to blame a previous government for the failures of this
one.
I have not done that at all - I have demonstrated to you that the
convention of a government deciding who would speak on behalf of the
government on specific issue is long standing - and has been practiced
by different governments.
Post by Tony
The Ministers of this government were instructed to not engage with the press.
That is the second time you have lied about what they were told what
to do - they can and have engaged with the press on other issues, but
the spokesperson for this issue is the Minister responsible. Quite
straightfarward really but you are determined to misunderstand.
Post by Tony
That is effectiively ignoring them.
No it is not.
Post by Tony
Your intent to distract has failed and nobody here agrees with you.
You have implied somethng similar before, but you have no proof of
that statement - it is a worthless opinion.
<snipped for brevity>
And here is a relevant opinion.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121463969/are-these-the-first-signs-of-third-term-arrogance-from-a-first-term-government
And here
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330745
It seems that nobody agrees with your attempts to excuse the inexcusable.
With Rich's attempts of course.
John Bowes
2020-05-09 22:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 09 May 2020 01:36:44 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 23:06:53 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 22:46:41 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
More like most deceptive, arrogant and condescending government
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I
could
not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it
is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing -
is
that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing -
is
that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September
2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour
at
all
times and flag it - as in this case.
So you are objecting to the information not being released earlier,
then objecting to it being released
No I am not. Read the article, that is what I am objecting to - the
government
by way of the PM requiring Ministers to not engage with questions from the
press (or anywhere else). Do try to keep on topic.
Oh is that all? Then perhaps you could explain why instructions to
ministers (on whatever topic) are inconsistent with democracy or
democratic behaviour. It is clear that similar instructions or
internal rules have applied within every other government in living
memory. Given that a large amount of information had been made
available to the media (instead of drip-fed to favoured "reporters" as
we know has been the case in the past) is it not a normal part of
political management to ensure that answers are given only by the one
person likely to have previously seen all of those papers, the Prime
Minister? There is no restriction on what the media do with the
papers, no shutting down of discussion for anything but a short time,
but I suspect giving a welcome relief to a government that still has
somedifficult decisions to make in just a few short days - they quite
reasonable wan to concentrate on making the right decisions now rather
than have time wasted by re-hashing decisions that are no past.
So just what is your beef, Tony? Would you have preferred there to
have not been a leak? This is normal control of the time available
to the Prime Minister and Cabinet when there are still some critical
decisions to be made in relation to the Covid-19 crisis - those
decisions take precedence over helping a journalist write a story
about papers that are readily available.
This is democracy in action, Tony; the only actions inconsistent with
democracy appear to be your deliberate mis-characterisation of normal
democratic processes.
Liar
Democracy in action would result in Ministers not being instructed to ignore
questions from the press. Or is that neyond your comprehension?
They have not been asked to ignore questions from the press - it
appears that this fact is indeed beyond your comprehension.
Post by Tony
Are you a communist, or fascist or merely a lover of the North Korean
dictatorship?
None of those - you may have noticed that your views are consistently
closer to those regimes than mine
Post by Tony
You are the only poster in this thread that does not agree that we should have
an open governmment, as promised more than once. The only one.
Liar.
I have never disagreed with our having open government, and certainly
the current government is a significant improvement on previous
governments int hat regard. They have just released a large amount of
correspondence and advice to cabinet relating ot an issue that is
still current! Restricting answers to the press to enquiries to the
minister responsible (in this case the prime minister) is the sort of
normal precaution that every organisation practices from time to time
- the Key government was famous for it.
There you go, you have to blame a previous government for the failures of this
one.
I have not done that at all - I have demonstrated to you that the
convention of a government deciding who would speak on behalf of the
government on specific issue is long standing - and has been practiced
by different governments.
Post by Tony
The Ministers of this government were instructed to not engage with the press.
That is the second time you have lied about what they were told what
to do - they can and have engaged with the press on other issues, but
the spokesperson for this issue is the Minister responsible. Quite
straightfarward really but you are determined to misunderstand.
Post by Tony
That is effectiively ignoring them.
No it is not.
Post by Tony
Your intent to distract has failed and nobody here agrees with you.
You have implied somethng similar before, but you have no proof of
that statement - it is a worthless opinion.
<snipped for brevity>
And here is a relevant opinion.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/121463969/are-these-the-first-signs-of-third-term-arrogance-from-a-first-term-government
And here
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330745
It seems that nobody agrees with your attempts to excuse the inexcusable.
Pretty much a standard for any thread Rich responds to Tony. i'd even go so far as to say Rich excels at failing to defend the inexcusable:)
Crash
2020-05-09 03:45:41 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour at all
times and flag it - as in this case.
Tony, elections are the mechanism by which voters record their wishes.
If those elected do not deliver as promised, then the voters will
register their disapproval or otherwise at the next election. Voters
may disapprove of the current government, but fear that the
alternative is worse. This is the eternal conundrum of democracy.
Perfect it is not, but more perfect that one-party-states it almost
always is.

The only fault in our current democracy is that each voter cannot
choose 'none of the above'. They can only abstain (and be lumped in
with those who could not be bothered to vote) or cast an invalid vote
(and be lumped in with those who could not figure out how to cast a
valid vote).


--
Crash McBash
Tony
2020-05-09 03:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour at all
times and flag it - as in this case.
Tony, elections are the mechanism by which voters record their wishes.
If those elected do not deliver as promised, then the voters will
register their disapproval or otherwise at the next election. Voters
may disapprove of the current government, but fear that the
alternative is worse. This is the eternal conundrum of democracy.
Perfect it is not, but more perfect that one-party-states it almost
always is.
The only fault in our current democracy is that each voter cannot
choose 'none of the above'. They can only abstain (and be lumped in
with those who could not be bothered to vote) or cast an invalid vote
(and be lumped in with those who could not figure out how to cast a
valid vote).
--
Crash McBash
Crash that is correct but I reserve the right (not a privilege, but a right) to
air my concerns when I believe the line has been crossed. And I fervently hope
that others will do so also.
James Christophers
2020-05-09 23:47:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour at all
times and flag it - as in this case.
Tony, elections are the mechanism by which voters record their wishes.
If those elected do not deliver as promised, then the voters will
register their disapproval or otherwise at the next election. Voters
may disapprove of the current government, but fear that the
alternative is worse. This is the eternal conundrum of democracy.
Perfect it is not, but more perfect that one-party-states it almost
always is.
The only fault in our current democracy is that each voter cannot
choose 'none of the above'. They can only abstain (and be lumped in
with those who could not be bothered to vote) or cast an invalid vote
(and be lumped in with those who could not figure out how to cast a
valid vote).
--
Crash McBash
Crash that is correct but I reserve the right (not a privilege, but a right) to
air my concerns when I believe the line has been crossed.
Like anyone, it is your right to air your concerns.

Like anyone, it is not a right but a privilege to air your concerns on a forum provided for you by a third party, but even then only on condition that you comply with that third party's conditions of service.
Tony
2020-05-10 00:43:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 21:39:04 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Correction
They are saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happening to democracy?
Well, I have not heard that there will be a poll taken 19 September 2020.
Gordon that is irrelevant.
Elections do not, ever, guarantee democratic behaviour by the elected
government. The onus is on all of us to watch for undemocratic behaviour
at
all
times and flag it - as in this case.
Tony, elections are the mechanism by which voters record their wishes.
If those elected do not deliver as promised, then the voters will
register their disapproval or otherwise at the next election. Voters
may disapprove of the current government, but fear that the
alternative is worse. This is the eternal conundrum of democracy.
Perfect it is not, but more perfect that one-party-states it almost
always is.
The only fault in our current democracy is that each voter cannot
choose 'none of the above'. They can only abstain (and be lumped in
with those who could not be bothered to vote) or cast an invalid vote
(and be lumped in with those who could not figure out how to cast a
valid vote).
--
Crash McBash
Crash that is correct but I reserve the right (not a privilege, but a right) to
air my concerns when I believe the line has been crossed.
Like anyone, it is your right to air your concerns.
Like anyone, it is not a right but a privilege to air your concerns on a forum
provided for you by a third party, but even then only on condition that you
comply with that third party's conditions of service.
Of course, and I do.

Willy Nilly
2020-05-08 21:51:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Wait a couple months for the people to internalise that they're
prisoners within our borders with nobody able to come in or go out,
and then there will be a reckoning.
Rich80105
2020-05-08 21:56:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Tony
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Wait a couple months for the people to internalise that they're
prisoners within our borders with nobody able to come in or go out,
and then there will be a reckoning.
In a cuple of mnths it may be possible to travel overseas again -
subject to quarantine restrictions in the country yu want to go to. We
have been receiving a small number of returning New Zealanders, I
expect a couple I know to be back in New Zealand within the next
couple of months; they are staying in China where there is currently
more freedom to move around . . .
Willy Nilly
2020-05-09 08:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Willy Nilly
Wait a couple months for the people to internalise that they're
prisoners within our borders with nobody able to come in or go out,
and then there will be a reckoning.
In a cuple of mnths it may be possible to travel overseas again -
subject to quarantine restrictions in the country yu want to go to.
But when you return, you will also get quarantined for 2 weeks here.
And you'll have to pay for it too -- otherwise there'll be a new
industry of people flying to New Caledonia and then immediately
returning to live for 2 weeks on the fat.

So add 2 weeks and $3000 to your travel experience, and see how "free"
people will feel to travel overseas.
Rich80105
2020-05-09 10:19:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Willy Nilly
Wait a couple months for the people to internalise that they're
prisoners within our borders with nobody able to come in or go out,
and then there will be a reckoning.
In a couple of mnths it may be possible to travel overseas again -
subject to quarantine restrictions in the country you want to go to.
But when you return, you will also get quarantined for 2 weeks here.
And you'll have to pay for it too -- otherwise there'll be a new
industry of people flying to New Caledonia and then immediately
returning to live for 2 weeks on the fat.
So add 2 weeks and $3000 to your travel experience, and see how "free"
people will feel to travel overseas.
The commercial costs of doing what you want to do are the result of
free market forces, Willy Nilly - if you can afford it, you could
indeed decide you want to spend some time in New Caledonia. So are you
admitting that nobody is a prisoner in New Zealand, or are you trying
to argue that the government should subsidise costs of New Zealanders
wanting to travel outside our borders? Wha sort of a reckoning do
you think there would be if the government started paying for trips
abroad that potentially increase risk to new Zealand on their return?

There hasn't been mention of those coming in paying for the cost of
quarantine, but it certainly is possible - would you object to a
reasonable charge?
Willy Nilly
2020-05-09 20:45:28 UTC
Permalink
... would you object to a reasonable charge?
You're being so willfully obtuse, Rich, that all I have left to say to
you is the well-known quote:

"When you argue with a fool, chances are he is doing the same."
Tony
2020-05-08 21:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Tony
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Wait a couple months for the people to internalise that they're
prisoners within our borders with nobody able to come in or go out,
and then there will be a reckoning.
If that happens there will be real unrest, that is a prediction and not a
threat. I have no expectation of travelling overseas in the near future but I
know many that are hoping to.
Rich80105
2020-05-08 22:49:44 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:58:42 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Tony
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Wait a couple months for the people to internalise that they're
prisoners within our borders with nobody able to come in or go out,
and then there will be a reckoning.
If that happens there will be real unrest, that is a prediction and not a
threat. I have no expectation of travelling overseas in the near future but I
know many that are hoping to.
I would expect so too, Tony, so it is good that there is, as far as I
am aware, no prohibition on you leaving New Zealand, or any intention
of there being government restrictions. True there are few passenger
flights or cruise ships leaving New Zealand, but that is our free
market working as intended; I suspect you cuold if you wish charter a
flight. Other countries may not permit you to stay in their country,
or may require you to stay in qualrantine (at your expense) should you
arrive - should that be the case that is of course nothing to do with
New Zealand or our government. I am sad that you have no intention of
travelling; I suspect you would find some parts of the United States
much to your liking for example.
Tony
2020-05-08 22:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:58:42 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Tony
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Wait a couple months for the people to internalise that they're
prisoners within our borders with nobody able to come in or go out,
and then there will be a reckoning.
If that happens there will be real unrest, that is a prediction and not a
threat. I have no expectation of travelling overseas in the near future but I
know many that are hoping to.
I would expect so too, Tony, so it is good that there is, as far as I
am aware, no prohibition on you leaving New Zealand, or any intention
of there being government restrictions. True there are few passenger
flights or cruise ships leaving New Zealand, but that is our free
market working as intended; I suspect you cuold if you wish charter a
flight. Other countries may not permit you to stay in their country,
or may require you to stay in qualrantine (at your expense) should you
arrive - should that be the case that is of course nothing to do with
New Zealand or our government. I am sad that you have no intention of
travelling; I suspect you would find some parts of the United States
much to your liking for example.
You are so wrong, however I know that you would enjoy living in North Korea, a
state run in exactly the way you advocate for us.
Rich80105
2020-05-08 23:20:51 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 May 2020 17:51:51 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:58:42 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Tony
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Wait a couple months for the people to internalise that they're
prisoners within our borders with nobody able to come in or go out,
and then there will be a reckoning.
If that happens there will be real unrest, that is a prediction and not a
threat. I have no expectation of travelling overseas in the near future but I
know many that are hoping to.
I would expect so too, Tony, so it is good that there is, as far as I
am aware, no prohibition on you leaving New Zealand, or any intention
of there being government restrictions. True there are few passenger
flights or cruise ships leaving New Zealand, but that is our free
market working as intended; I suspect you cuold if you wish charter a
flight. Other countries may not permit you to stay in their country,
or may require you to stay in qualrantine (at your expense) should you
arrive - should that be the case that is of course nothing to do with
New Zealand or our government. I am sad that you have no intention of
travelling; I suspect you would find some parts of the United States
much to your liking for example.
You are so wrong, however I know that you would enjoy living in North Korea, a
state run in exactly the way you advocate for us.
I what way do you think I was wrong, Tony? Are there in fact
restrictions on leaving New Zealand? If so I look forward to your
advice.
Tony
2020-05-08 23:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 17:51:51 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:58:42 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Tony
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Wait a couple months for the people to internalise that they're
prisoners within our borders with nobody able to come in or go out,
and then there will be a reckoning.
If that happens there will be real unrest, that is a prediction and not a
threat. I have no expectation of travelling overseas in the near future but I
know many that are hoping to.
I would expect so too, Tony, so it is good that there is, as far as I
am aware, no prohibition on you leaving New Zealand, or any intention
of there being government restrictions. True there are few passenger
flights or cruise ships leaving New Zealand, but that is our free
market working as intended; I suspect you cuold if you wish charter a
flight. Other countries may not permit you to stay in their country,
or may require you to stay in qualrantine (at your expense) should you
arrive - should that be the case that is of course nothing to do with
New Zealand or our government. I am sad that you have no intention of
travelling; I suspect you would find some parts of the United States
much to your liking for example.
You are so wrong, however I know that you would enjoy living in North Korea, a
state run in exactly the way you advocate for us.
I what way do you think I was wrong, Tony? Are there in fact
restrictions on leaving New Zealand? If so I look forward to your
advice.
Another stupid question of yours. I was, obviously, referring to your barbed
comment about the USA, and my response made that clear citing your preference
for authoritarian governments.
Rich80105
2020-05-08 23:58:22 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 May 2020 18:35:01 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 17:51:51 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:58:42 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Tony
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Wait a couple months for the people to internalise that they're
prisoners within our borders with nobody able to come in or go out,
and then there will be a reckoning.
If that happens there will be real unrest, that is a prediction and not a
threat. I have no expectation of travelling overseas in the near future but I
know many that are hoping to.
I would expect so too, Tony, so it is good that there is, as far as I
am aware, no prohibition on you leaving New Zealand, or any intention
of there being government restrictions. True there are few passenger
flights or cruise ships leaving New Zealand, but that is our free
market working as intended; I suspect you cuold if you wish charter a
flight. Other countries may not permit you to stay in their country,
or may require you to stay in qualrantine (at your expense) should you
arrive - should that be the case that is of course nothing to do with
New Zealand or our government. I am sad that you have no intention of
travelling; I suspect you would find some parts of the United States
much to your liking for example.
You are so wrong, however I know that you would enjoy living in North Korea, a
state run in exactly the way you advocate for us.
I what way do you think I was wrong, Tony? Are there in fact
restrictions on leaving New Zealand? If so I look forward to your
advice.
Another stupid question of yours. I was, obviously, referring to your barbed
comment about the USA, and my response made that clear citing your preference
for authoritarian governments.
I have no knowledge as to whether the USA would allow you to be
admitted Tony, but I am also unaware of any restrictions from our
government for you leaving - nor are there any plans other than
perhaps in your mind or that of your totalitarian mates to intrisuce
any such restrictions. Besides, your assertions in that direction have
nothing to do with our having the most open and transparent government
ever . . . You are off topic again, Tony - you may now flagelate
yourself . . .
Tony
2020-05-09 00:24:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 18:35:01 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 17:51:51 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:58:42 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Tony
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
What is happened to democracy?
Wait a couple months for the people to internalise that they're
prisoners within our borders with nobody able to come in or go out,
and then there will be a reckoning.
If that happens there will be real unrest, that is a prediction and not a
threat. I have no expectation of travelling overseas in the near future
but
I
know many that are hoping to.
I would expect so too, Tony, so it is good that there is, as far as I
am aware, no prohibition on you leaving New Zealand, or any intention
of there being government restrictions. True there are few passenger
flights or cruise ships leaving New Zealand, but that is our free
market working as intended; I suspect you cuold if you wish charter a
flight. Other countries may not permit you to stay in their country,
or may require you to stay in qualrantine (at your expense) should you
arrive - should that be the case that is of course nothing to do with
New Zealand or our government. I am sad that you have no intention of
travelling; I suspect you would find some parts of the United States
much to your liking for example.
You are so wrong, however I know that you would enjoy living in North
Korea,
a
state run in exactly the way you advocate for us.
I what way do you think I was wrong, Tony? Are there in fact
restrictions on leaving New Zealand? If so I look forward to your
advice.
Another stupid question of yours. I was, obviously, referring to your barbed
comment about the USA, and my response made that clear citing your preference
for authoritarian governments.
I have no knowledge as to whether the USA would allow you to be
admitted Tony, but I am also unaware of any restrictions from our
government for you leaving - nor are there any plans other than
perhaps in your mind or that of your totalitarian mates to intrisuce
any such restrictions. Besides, your assertions in that direction have
nothing to do with our having the most open and transparent government
ever . . . You are off topic again, Tony - you may now flagelate
yourself . . .
I don't self flagelate I leave that to you.
You took this off topic now go away and be a good little self abuser.
Rich80105
2020-05-08 21:52:08 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:00:18 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, that is your arte, Tony - misinterpreting some fairly clear
statements. It is a large amount of information, that will take some
time to read. If journalists have not read it, then they may well get
misunderstandings from only reading a small part. Better to give them
time to ask informed questions. If a particular Minister is not aware
of what is on page 834, why should he be exposed to a 'gotcha'
question that turns out to be irrelevant when all pages are read.
Besides, a lot of the people that would be answering questions will
have had a long few weeks or months, and perhaps deserve a few days of
relaxation while the papers are pored thrugh and analysed, and able to
be put in perspective by the better journalists and experts who will
then be able to ask intelligent questions. Not that is "right", Tony.
Post by Tony
What is happened to democracy?
Still there, Tony, your lot haven't done away with it yet.
Tony
2020-05-08 21:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:00:18 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, that is your arte, Tony - misinterpreting some fairly clear
statements. It is a large amount of information, that will take some
time to read. If journalists have not read it, then they may well get
misunderstandings from only reading a small part. Better to give them
time to ask informed questions. If a particular Minister is not aware
of what is on page 834, why should he be exposed to a 'gotcha'
question that turns out to be irrelevant when all pages are read.
Besides, a lot of the people that would be answering questions will
have had a long few weeks or months, and perhaps deserve a few days of
relaxation while the papers are pored thrugh and analysed, and able to
be put in perspective by the better journalists and experts who will
then be able to ask intelligent questions. Not that is "right", Tony.
Post by Tony
What is happened to democracy?
Still there, Tony, your lot haven't done away with it yet.
That is all just stupid.
They are being told to not engage with the press or anybody else. That is all.
I don't have a "lot" unlike you. The opposition is doing what we pay them to do
but I suspect you believe they should do as the government tells them to, yes?
Rich80105
2020-05-08 22:41:35 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:56:01 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:00:18 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, that is your arte, Tony - misinterpreting some fairly clear
statements. It is a large amount of information, that will take some
time to read. If journalists have not read it, then they may well get
misunderstandings from only reading a small part. Better to give them
time to ask informed questions. If a particular Minister is not aware
of what is on page 834, why should he be exposed to a 'gotcha'
question that turns out to be irrelevant when all pages are read.
Besides, a lot of the people that would be answering questions will
have had a long few weeks or months, and perhaps deserve a few days of
relaxation while the papers are pored thrugh and analysed, and able to
be put in perspective by the better journalists and experts who will
then be able to ask intelligent questions. Not that is "right", Tony.
Post by Tony
What is happened to democracy?
Still there, Tony, your lot haven't done away with it yet.
That is all just stupid.
They are being told to not engage with the press or anybody else. That is all.
I don't have a "lot" unlike you. The opposition is doing what we pay them to do
but I suspect you believe they should do as the government tells them to, yes?
You are correct, Tony. That is what the opposition are doing - holding
the government to account.
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.otto/videos/10158638355647033/?t=122

The longer version is available here:
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/sc/scl/epidemic-response/news-archive/watch-public-meetings-of-the-epidemic-response-committee/
By the end of that discussion I suspect Simon Bridges understood that
a fortnight is 14 days, and that the 11 May was the first logical date
to assess whether further cases had been incubated due to the move
from Level 4 to Level 3, and hence assess whether it is safe to then
move to Level 2. I am sure you will agree with me that the more New
Zealanders that have the opportunity to see him in action the better
for New Zealand's future.
Tony
2020-05-08 22:44:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:56:01 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:00:18 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, that is your arte, Tony - misinterpreting some fairly clear
statements. It is a large amount of information, that will take some
time to read. If journalists have not read it, then they may well get
misunderstandings from only reading a small part. Better to give them
time to ask informed questions. If a particular Minister is not aware
of what is on page 834, why should he be exposed to a 'gotcha'
question that turns out to be irrelevant when all pages are read.
Besides, a lot of the people that would be answering questions will
have had a long few weeks or months, and perhaps deserve a few days of
relaxation while the papers are pored thrugh and analysed, and able to
be put in perspective by the better journalists and experts who will
then be able to ask intelligent questions. Not that is "right", Tony.
Post by Tony
What is happened to democracy?
Still there, Tony, your lot haven't done away with it yet.
That is all just stupid.
They are being told to not engage with the press or anybody else. That is all.
I don't have a "lot" unlike you. The opposition is doing what we pay them to do
but I suspect you believe they should do as the government tells them to, yes?
You are correct, Tony. That is what the opposition are doing - holding
the government to account.
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.otto/videos/10158638355647033/?t=122
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/sc/scl/epidemic-response/news-archive/watch-public-meetings-of-the-epidemic-response-committee/
By the end of that discussion I suspect Simon Bridges understood that
a fortnight is 14 days, and that the 11 May was the first logical date
to assess whether further cases had been incubated due to the move
from Level 4 to Level 3, and hence assess whether it is safe to then
move to Level 2. I am sure you will agree with me that the more New
Zealanders that have the opportunity to see him in action the better
for New Zealand's future.
This is not about the opposition, this is about potentially undemocratic
government. Anything about the opposition belongs in another thread so stop
diverting the attention of people that care to an unrelated subject.
Rich80105
2020-05-08 23:19:54 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 May 2020 17:44:41 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:56:01 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:00:18 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, that is your arte, Tony - misinterpreting some fairly clear
statements. It is a large amount of information, that will take some
time to read. If journalists have not read it, then they may well get
misunderstandings from only reading a small part. Better to give them
time to ask informed questions. If a particular Minister is not aware
of what is on page 834, why should he be exposed to a 'gotcha'
question that turns out to be irrelevant when all pages are read.
Besides, a lot of the people that would be answering questions will
have had a long few weeks or months, and perhaps deserve a few days of
relaxation while the papers are pored thrugh and analysed, and able to
be put in perspective by the better journalists and experts who will
then be able to ask intelligent questions. Not that is "right", Tony.
Post by Tony
What is happened to democracy?
Still there, Tony, your lot haven't done away with it yet.
That is all just stupid.
They are being told to not engage with the press or anybody else. That is all.
I don't have a "lot" unlike you. The opposition is doing what we pay them to do
but I suspect you believe they should do as the government tells them to, yes?
You are correct, Tony. That is what the opposition are doing - holding
the government to account.
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.otto/videos/10158638355647033/?t=122
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/sc/scl/epidemic-response/news-archive/watch-public-meetings-of-the-epidemic-response-committee/
By the end of that discussion I suspect Simon Bridges understood that
a fortnight is 14 days, and that the 11 May was the first logical date
to assess whether further cases had been incubated due to the move
from Level 4 to Level 3, and hence assess whether it is safe to then
move to Level 2. I am sure you will agree with me that the more New
Zealanders that have the opportunity to see him in action the better
for New Zealand's future.
This is not about the opposition, this is about potentially undemocratic
government. Anything about the opposition belongs in another thread so stop
diverting the attention of people that care to an unrelated subject.
I was responding to (and agreeing with the first part of) your
comment:
"The opposition is doing what we pay them to do
but I suspect you believe they should do as the government tells them
to, yes?"

Since you are the self-appointed arbiter of relevance, doubtless you
will remonstrate with yourself.
Tony
2020-05-08 23:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 17:44:41 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:56:01 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:00:18 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, that is your arte, Tony - misinterpreting some fairly clear
statements. It is a large amount of information, that will take some
time to read. If journalists have not read it, then they may well get
misunderstandings from only reading a small part. Better to give them
time to ask informed questions. If a particular Minister is not aware
of what is on page 834, why should he be exposed to a 'gotcha'
question that turns out to be irrelevant when all pages are read.
Besides, a lot of the people that would be answering questions will
have had a long few weeks or months, and perhaps deserve a few days of
relaxation while the papers are pored thrugh and analysed, and able to
be put in perspective by the better journalists and experts who will
then be able to ask intelligent questions. Not that is "right", Tony.
Post by Tony
What is happened to democracy?
Still there, Tony, your lot haven't done away with it yet.
That is all just stupid.
They are being told to not engage with the press or anybody else. That is all.
I don't have a "lot" unlike you. The opposition is doing what we pay them
to
do
but I suspect you believe they should do as the government tells them to, yes?
You are correct, Tony. That is what the opposition are doing - holding
the government to account.
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.otto/videos/10158638355647033/?t=122
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/sc/scl/epidemic-response/news-archive/watch-public-meetings-of-the-epidemic-response-committee/
By the end of that discussion I suspect Simon Bridges understood that
a fortnight is 14 days, and that the 11 May was the first logical date
to assess whether further cases had been incubated due to the move
from Level 4 to Level 3, and hence assess whether it is safe to then
move to Level 2. I am sure you will agree with me that the more New
Zealanders that have the opportunity to see him in action the better
for New Zealand's future.
This is not about the opposition, this is about potentially undemocratic
government. Anything about the opposition belongs in another thread so stop
diverting the attention of people that care to an unrelated subject.
I was responding to (and agreeing with the first part of) your
"The opposition is doing what we pay them to do
but I suspect you believe they should do as the government tells them
to, yes?"
Since you are the self-appointed arbiter of relevance, doubtless you
will remonstrate with yourself.
More stupid posts from Rich.
Crash
2020-05-09 00:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:00:18 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, that is your arte, Tony - misinterpreting some fairly clear
statements. It is a large amount of information, that will take some
time to read. If journalists have not read it, then they may well get
misunderstandings from only reading a small part. Better to give them
time to ask informed questions. If a particular Minister is not aware
of what is on page 834, why should he be exposed to a 'gotcha'
question that turns out to be irrelevant when all pages are read.
Besides, a lot of the people that would be answering questions will
have had a long few weeks or months, and perhaps deserve a few days of
relaxation while the papers are pored thrugh and analysed, and able to
be put in perspective by the better journalists and experts who will
then be able to ask intelligent questions. Not that is "right", Tony.
Here's the detail Rich:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330612

Note this: "The documents reveal top-level advice received by
ministers, draft policy plans and hundreds of reports spanning a
period since early February."

So much of this information could have been released gradually and
some time ago. Instead the government has waited and released a lot
of information all in one go. Why do you think they did that Rich?
There is nothing in your post that excuses this behaviour. The
information that is now on "Page 834" may well have been on page 2
progressive and earlier releases had been made.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happened to democracy?
Still there, Tony, your lot haven't done away with it yet.
Its "your lot" that are in Government Rich, and they have deliberately
tried to obscure information by releasing it in volume. No doubt past
National governments have done the same thing, and no doubt you would
have been enraged by this at the time. As per the subject, the
Government's commitment to being open and transparent is proving to be
an aspiration not yet met.

Yet again you try to defend the indefensible.


--
Crash McBash
John Bowes
2020-05-09 02:40:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 08 May 2020 16:00:18 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
I saw this reported on one of the news programmes last night, I could not
believe it and thought I would wait for corroboration and here it is.
They arte saying - so we don't need to justify what we are doing - is that
right?
No, that is your arte, Tony - misinterpreting some fairly clear
statements.
BULLSHIT! YOU practice that on almost a daily basis Rich and always have!
<further stupid bullshit from the resident idiot snipped>
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
What is happened to democracy?
Still there, Tony, your lot haven't done away with it yet.
A true statement from you at last rich. however your lot have certainly ridden rough shod over freedom and democracy with the pandemic! They are now pushing through more legislation under urgency than your good friend John Key ever did and ALL of it limits our freedom!!!
James Christophers
2020-05-08 22:05:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnO
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330684
What a disgrace.
More detailed info here:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/416190/covid-19-government-releases-hundreds-of-documents-on-its-response
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