Discussion:
"Original Antigenic Sin" and the Xi COVID variant
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Willy Nilly
2021-09-06 09:00:50 UTC
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"Original Antigenic Sin" is explained in this Wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin

In brief, it means that when you encounter a pathogen for the 2nd
time, and that pathogen has evolved a bit from the 1st exposure when
you built your immunity, now your body will manufacture antibodies not
for the new threat but for the old one that it "remembers".
So viruses are nimble whilst your body a bit slow to adjust.

Vaccines can make this problem worse, as the article states:
"In fact, the vaccine might make the infection even worse, by
'trapping' the immune response into the first, ineffective, response
it made against the virus."

Now Jacinda is going to get us all vaccinated against the COVID Alpha
variant (which all the vaccines are designed for), but darn if she's
going to let us use that vaccine-based immunity against the Delta
variant (which is not too different from the Alpha) -- nosirreee,
she'll stamp it out! Silly us with our fading vaccine immunity.
Let's booster up with more Alpha !

So while we lurch toward the year 2022 with our Alpha-vaccined status,
the future Xi variant will grow in the overseas-vaccinated population
and arrive at our shores. But it'll be quite different from the Alpha
variant -- our vaccine won't bother it much because it mutated in an
Alpha-vaccinated environment so is very resistant to it. Don't
believe me? Read some science for yourselves:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510


Here's where Original Antigenic Sin does its Devil's work -- when your
body tries to defend itself against the Xi variant, it'll only be able
to produce Alpha antibodies! This is because our wonderful vaccine
has "trapped" our immune system into that Alpha response.

Meanwhile, the unvaccinated have a better chance -- their bodies can
analyse the Xi variant and devise antibodies against it, since they
are not vaccine-trapped into an Alpha response.

PS: In this discussion I've upped the contrast a bit to make the point
easy to understand. The actual experience will probably vary. But
one thing is clear: the virus is nimble and the COVID vaccines are a
clumsy tool, trying to replace accurate aim with a vast horde of
off-target antibodies. When the virus mutates, how long do you wait
for the targeted booster shot? At least the unvaccinated don't need
to wait for anything, but they will be in a cage match alone.

Hopefully, the Xi variant will never happen.
Firu
2021-09-06 12:08:04 UTC
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On 6/09/21 9:00 pm, Willy Nilly wrote:

Some stuff full of really dodgy reasoning and justification.

Just because a virus mutates it doesn't mean existing vaccines are
totally ineffective. Much depends on the bit of the virus that has mutated.

If the protein spike a vaccine targets is completely new and novel then
your scenario might be valid. BUT, only if your body recognises Xi as
Alpha, and if the virus has mutated to such an extent then that's not a
given! And then, you're only better off if all other variants have
disappeared.

Arguing that this means it's better to be unvaccinated is just wrong. No
vaccine means you can get every variant. Limited protection is better
than none. The US experience supports this idea. US victims of Delta are
largely the unvaccinated.


Something is better than nothing is the thinking behind flu
vaccinations. The variants the flu jab protects against changes too,
depending on the prevalence of the various strains.

Guess this might be a future covid strategy.
Willy Nilly
2021-09-06 21:45:06 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Firu
If the protein spike a vaccine targets is completely new and novel then
your scenario might be valid. BUT, only if your body recognises Xi as
Alpha, and if the virus has mutated to such an extent then that's not a
given!
That's exactly right, Xi would need to be recognised as Alpha for the
problem to happen. We don't well-understand the thresholds by which
one variant is or isn't recognised as another.
Post by Firu
Arguing that this means it's better to be unvaccinated is just wrong. No
vaccine means you can get every variant.
Yesss, but the natural immunity from the first encounter would help
protect against later variants. The "original antigenic sin" would
become a problem for the unvaccinated too (subsequent to the first
infection), but maybe not as much compared with the vaccinated --
again, not well understood.
Post by Firu
US victims of Delta are largely the unvaccinated.
Yes, Delta came out of the unvaccinated population (in India) so the
Alpha "vaccine" is pretty effective against it. But it will be a very
different story for a variant which comes out of the vaccinated
population -- the as-yet hypothetical "Xi" variant.
Firu
2021-09-06 22:47:48 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Firu
If the protein spike a vaccine targets is completely new and novel then
your scenario might be valid. BUT, only if your body recognises Xi as
Alpha, and if the virus has mutated to such an extent then that's not a
given!
That's exactly right, Xi would need to be recognised as Alpha for the
problem to happen. We don't well-understand the thresholds by which
one variant is or isn't recognised as another.
Post by Firu
Arguing that this means it's better to be unvaccinated is just wrong. No
vaccine means you can get every variant.
Yesss, but the natural immunity from the first encounter would help
protect against later variants. The "original antigenic sin" would
become a problem for the unvaccinated too (subsequent to the first
infection), but maybe not as much compared with the vaccinated --
again, not well understood
Post by Firu
US victims of Delta are largely the unvaccinated.
Yes, Delta came out of the unvaccinated population (in India) so the
Alpha "vaccine" is pretty effective against it. But it will be a very
different story for a variant which comes out of the vaccinated
population -- the as-yet hypothetical "Xi" variant.
This is a whole bunch of pseudo science.

Doesn't matter where you get your antibodies from, a needle or a
possibly deadly infection. They all work on the same basic principal.
So you get the same problems, (real and imagined or even undiscovered!)
and the ongoing benefits from the little buggers.

Good things about vaccines, they give your body a leg up so you have a
fighting chance and you don't need to get ill with every variant that
comes along. New variant, new vaccine. and if you have to wait for the
new vaccine to be made? Still worth it in the long run.

Get a bloody jab!
Willy Nilly
2021-09-06 23:13:45 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Firu
Get a bloody jab!
Yes, anyone who wants to make a lifestyle out of being a human
pin-cushion should get their jabs, because, make no mistake, there
will be a lot of them.
Gordon
2021-09-07 01:48:06 UTC
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Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Firu
Get a bloody jab!
Yes, anyone who wants to make a lifestyle out of being a human
pin-cushion should get their jabs, because, make no mistake, there
will be a lot of them.
Hey, Willy no one wants to be a human pin cushion. However jabbing is how we
get protection. A good thing. So we do it.
Firu
2021-09-09 19:29:30 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Firu
Get a bloody jab!
Yes, anyone who wants to make a lifestyle out of being a human
pin-cushion should get their jabs, because, make no mistake, there
will be a lot of them.
Bit late replying. I've been away.

This week I ripped an arm open on a hedge trimmer. Had to have it
stitched up. 'Cos I'm an old fart, and it's years since my last tetanus
booster I was offered (strongly advised!) to get one.

Being a 'pincushion' isn't a lifestyle choice. Not dying from
potentially fatal illness is.

Gordon
2021-09-07 01:44:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Firu
If the protein spike a vaccine targets is completely new and novel then
your scenario might be valid. BUT, only if your body recognises Xi as
Alpha, and if the virus has mutated to such an extent then that's not a
given!
That's exactly right, Xi would need to be recognised as Alpha for the
problem to happen. We don't well-understand the thresholds by which
one variant is or isn't recognised as another.
Post by Firu
Arguing that this means it's better to be unvaccinated is just wrong. No
vaccine means you can get every variant.
Yesss, but the natural immunity from the first encounter would help
protect against later variants. The "original antigenic sin" would
become a problem for the unvaccinated too (subsequent to the first
infection), but maybe not as much compared with the vaccinated --
again, not well understood
Post by Firu
US victims of Delta are largely the unvaccinated.
Yes, Delta came out of the unvaccinated population (in India) so the
Alpha "vaccine" is pretty effective against it. But it will be a very
different story for a variant which comes out of the vaccinated
population -- the as-yet hypothetical "Xi" variant.
This is a whole bunch of pseudo science.
Doesn't matter where you get your antibodies from, a needle or a
possibly deadly infection. They all work on the same basic principal.
So you get the same problems, (real and imagined or even undiscovered!)
and the ongoing benefits from the little buggers.
Good things about vaccines, they give your body a leg up so you have a
fighting chance and you don't need to get ill with every variant that
comes along. New variant, new vaccine. and if you have to wait for the
new vaccine to be made? Still worth it in the long run.
It is not the design of making of the vaccine, it is the trials which take
the time. Add on some reviewing of trials and it is most of the time.
Post by Firu
Get a bloody jab!
Rich80105
2021-09-07 02:09:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Firu
If the protein spike a vaccine targets is completely new and novel then
your scenario might be valid. BUT, only if your body recognises Xi as
Alpha, and if the virus has mutated to such an extent then that's not a
given!
That's exactly right, Xi would need to be recognised as Alpha for the
problem to happen. We don't well-understand the thresholds by which
one variant is or isn't recognised as another.
Post by Firu
Arguing that this means it's better to be unvaccinated is just wrong. No
vaccine means you can get every variant.
Yesss, but the natural immunity from the first encounter would help
protect against later variants. The "original antigenic sin" would
become a problem for the unvaccinated too (subsequent to the first
infection), but maybe not as much compared with the vaccinated --
again, not well understood
Post by Firu
US victims of Delta are largely the unvaccinated.
Yes, Delta came out of the unvaccinated population (in India) so the
Alpha "vaccine" is pretty effective against it. But it will be a very
different story for a variant which comes out of the vaccinated
population -- the as-yet hypothetical "Xi" variant.
This is a whole bunch of pseudo science.
Doesn't matter where you get your antibodies from, a needle or a
possibly deadly infection. They all work on the same basic principal.
So you get the same problems, (real and imagined or even undiscovered!)
and the ongoing benefits from the little buggers.
Good things about vaccines, they give your body a leg up so you have a
fighting chance and you don't need to get ill with every variant that
comes along. New variant, new vaccine. and if you have to wait for the
new vaccine to be made? Still worth it in the long run.
Get a bloody jab!
Well said. Some appear to be just trying to create trouble; others are
deluded, still others appear not to be able to think and believe that
deaths are justified in getting our country opened up to visitors as
soon as possible.

There has been a lot of talk about immunisation as through it was a
guarantee of total immunity to the virus - that has never been
claimed, although for some diseases it has been close to being
correct. The vaccines currently available do reduce the chance of
catching Covid lower, and also usually reduce the severity of the
infection for those unlucky enough to get it. Later vaccines may do
better, but we now know that the multile variants do mean something -
some are less harmful than the initial strain; Delta is much more
infectious.

So far the tradeoff of Lockdown and severe restrictions at our borders
has saved a lot of lives, and our economy has done better overall than
other countries that we compare ourselves to. The support given by our
government to businesses has been excellent - and yes there are gaps
and complications, and for some it is not enough, but it has also been
sufficient to save many from dire poverty - and some businesses have
thrived, while others will fail - that is how a free market is
supposed to work, but here that is tempered by the kindness of
government in enabling change to be based on longer term prospects
rather than the sudden shock of the first lockdown.

Every person that does not get vaccinated puts our country in
additional danger - our target must be 100% of those who do not have
medical advice not to vaccinate. Those that do get vaccinated are
protecting themselves and their family and improving New Zealand for
all of us.
Tony
2021-09-07 02:23:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Firu
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Firu
If the protein spike a vaccine targets is completely new and novel then
your scenario might be valid. BUT, only if your body recognises Xi as
Alpha, and if the virus has mutated to such an extent then that's not a
given!
That's exactly right, Xi would need to be recognised as Alpha for the
problem to happen. We don't well-understand the thresholds by which
one variant is or isn't recognised as another.
Post by Firu
Arguing that this means it's better to be unvaccinated is just wrong. No
vaccine means you can get every variant.
Yesss, but the natural immunity from the first encounter would help
protect against later variants. The "original antigenic sin" would
become a problem for the unvaccinated too (subsequent to the first
infection), but maybe not as much compared with the vaccinated --
again, not well understood
Post by Firu
US victims of Delta are largely the unvaccinated.
Yes, Delta came out of the unvaccinated population (in India) so the
Alpha "vaccine" is pretty effective against it. But it will be a very
different story for a variant which comes out of the vaccinated
population -- the as-yet hypothetical "Xi" variant.
This is a whole bunch of pseudo science.
Doesn't matter where you get your antibodies from, a needle or a
possibly deadly infection. They all work on the same basic principal.
So you get the same problems, (real and imagined or even undiscovered!)
and the ongoing benefits from the little buggers.
Good things about vaccines, they give your body a leg up so you have a
fighting chance and you don't need to get ill with every variant that
comes along. New variant, new vaccine. and if you have to wait for the
new vaccine to be made? Still worth it in the long run.
Get a bloody jab!
Well said. Some appear to be just trying to create trouble; others are
deluded, still others appear not to be able to think and believe that
deaths are justified in getting our country opened up to visitors as
soon as possible.
I happen to disagree with WillyNilly but unlike you I am not being abusive
to/about him. Why do you have to assume that he is trying to make trouble, is
deluded or is in favour of more deaths. Maybe he genuinely believes what he is
saying, there is certainly some evidence that he has provided.
You are an intolerably abusive old man. The last few weeks have taken its toll
on you, I suspect. Time for a holiday, may I suggest NSW?
Post by Rich80105
There has been a lot of talk about immunisation as through it was a
guarantee of total immunity to the virus - that has never been
claimed, although for some diseases it has been close to being
correct. The vaccines currently available do reduce the chance of
catching Covid lower, and also usually reduce the severity of the
infection for those unlucky enough to get it. Later vaccines may do
better, but we now know that the multile variants do mean something -
some are less harmful than the initial strain; Delta is much more
infectious.
So far the tradeoff of Lockdown and severe restrictions at our borders
has saved a lot of lives, and our economy has done better overall than
other countries that we compare ourselves to. The support given by our
government to businesses has been excellent - and yes there are gaps
and complications, and for some it is not enough, but it has also been
sufficient to save many from dire poverty - and some businesses have
thrived, while others will fail - that is how a free market is
supposed to work, but here that is tempered by the kindness of
government in enabling change to be based on longer term prospects
rather than the sudden shock of the first lockdown.
Every person that does not get vaccinated puts our country in
additional danger - our target must be 100% of those who do not have
medical advice not to vaccinate. Those that do get vaccinated are
protecting themselves and their family and improving New Zealand for
all of us.
James Christophers
2021-09-07 04:26:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Firu
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Firu
If the protein spike a vaccine targets is completely new and novel then
your scenario might be valid. BUT, only if your body recognises Xi as
Alpha, and if the virus has mutated to such an extent then that's not a
given!
That's exactly right, Xi would need to be recognised as Alpha for the
problem to happen. We don't well-understand the thresholds by which
one variant is or isn't recognised as another.
Post by Firu
Arguing that this means it's better to be unvaccinated is just wrong. No
vaccine means you can get every variant.
Yesss, but the natural immunity from the first encounter would help
protect against later variants. The "original antigenic sin" would
become a problem for the unvaccinated too (subsequent to the first
infection), but maybe not as much compared with the vaccinated --
again, not well understood
Post by Firu
US victims of Delta are largely the unvaccinated.
Yes, Delta came out of the unvaccinated population (in India) so the
Alpha "vaccine" is pretty effective against it. But it will be a very
different story for a variant which comes out of the vaccinated
population -- the as-yet hypothetical "Xi" variant.
This is a whole bunch of pseudo science.
Doesn't matter where you get your antibodies from, a needle or a
possibly deadly infection. They all work on the same basic principal.
So you get the same problems, (real and imagined or even undiscovered!)
and the ongoing benefits from the little buggers.
Good things about vaccines, they give your body a leg up so you have a
fighting chance and you don't need to get ill with every variant that
comes along. New variant, new vaccine. and if you have to wait for the
new vaccine to be made? Still worth it in the long run.
Get a bloody jab!
Well said. Some appear to be just trying to create trouble; others are
deluded, still others appear not to be able to think and believe that
deaths are justified in getting our country opened up to visitors as
soon as possible.
A universal condition shared by both polemicist and saboteur-provocateur alike, including those determined to sow discord and division simply for the perverse pleasure of it. It tends to occur where there is necessarily insufficient and/or incomplete authoritative and conclusive evidence that matters during crises and other such critical scenarios.
Post by Tony
I happen to disagree with WillyNilly but unlike you I am not being abusive
to/about him. Why do you have to assume that he is trying to make trouble, is
deluded or is in favour of more deaths. Maybe he genuinely believes what he is
saying, there is certainly some evidence that he has provided.
Quite so. But it is a fact of life universally observed that those who must go looking for offence where none is intended will surely find it, if only in their imaginations - the moreso when there is already a long and well-established animus between another party and themselves. It therefore behoves such folk to be even more circumspect when naming and blaming, when in fact they cannot be 100% factually certain that their own selective inferences are 100% watertight.

For what little it is worth from my layman's perspective, and from what I have read so far in these matters, I find Firu the more convincing of the two protagonists if only in his lucidity of thought and clarity of expression.
Post by Tony
You are an intolerably abusive old man. The last few weeks have taken its toll
on you, I suspect. Time for a holiday, may I suggest NSW?
Post by Rich80105
There has been a lot of talk about immunisation as through it was a
guarantee of total immunity to the virus - that has never been
claimed, although for some diseases it has been close to being
correct. The vaccines currently available do reduce the chance of
catching Covid lower, and also usually reduce the severity of the
infection for those unlucky enough to get it. Later vaccines may do
better, but we now know that the multile variants do mean something -
some are less harmful than the initial strain; Delta is much more
infectious.
So far the tradeoff of Lockdown and severe restrictions at our borders
has saved a lot of lives, and our economy has done better overall than
other countries that we compare ourselves to. The support given by our
government to businesses has been excellent - and yes there are gaps
and complications, and for some it is not enough, but it has also been
sufficient to save many from dire poverty - and some businesses have
thrived, while others will fail - that is how a free market is
supposed to work, but here that is tempered by the kindness of
government in enabling change to be based on longer term prospects
rather than the sudden shock of the first lockdown.
Every person that does not get vaccinated puts our country in
additional danger - our target must be 100% of those who do not have
medical advice not to vaccinate. Those that do get vaccinated are
protecting themselves and their family and improving New Zealand for
all of us.
Rich80105
2021-09-07 06:04:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 21:26:05 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Firu
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Firu
If the protein spike a vaccine targets is completely new and novel then
your scenario might be valid. BUT, only if your body recognises Xi as
Alpha, and if the virus has mutated to such an extent then that's not a
given!
That's exactly right, Xi would need to be recognised as Alpha for the
problem to happen. We don't well-understand the thresholds by which
one variant is or isn't recognised as another.
Post by Firu
Arguing that this means it's better to be unvaccinated is just wrong. No
vaccine means you can get every variant.
Yesss, but the natural immunity from the first encounter would help
protect against later variants. The "original antigenic sin" would
become a problem for the unvaccinated too (subsequent to the first
infection), but maybe not as much compared with the vaccinated --
again, not well understood
Post by Firu
US victims of Delta are largely the unvaccinated.
Yes, Delta came out of the unvaccinated population (in India) so the
Alpha "vaccine" is pretty effective against it. But it will be a very
different story for a variant which comes out of the vaccinated
population -- the as-yet hypothetical "Xi" variant.
This is a whole bunch of pseudo science.
Doesn't matter where you get your antibodies from, a needle or a
possibly deadly infection. They all work on the same basic principal.
So you get the same problems, (real and imagined or even undiscovered!)
and the ongoing benefits from the little buggers.
Good things about vaccines, they give your body a leg up so you have a
fighting chance and you don't need to get ill with every variant that
comes along. New variant, new vaccine. and if you have to wait for the
new vaccine to be made? Still worth it in the long run.
Get a bloody jab!
Well said. Some appear to be just trying to create trouble; others are
deluded, still others appear not to be able to think and believe that
deaths are justified in getting our country opened up to visitors as
soon as possible.
A universal condition shared by both polemicist and saboteur-provocateur alike, including those determined to sow discord and division simply for the perverse pleasure of it. It tends to occur where there is necessarily insufficient and/or incomplete authoritative and conclusive evidence that matters during crises and other such critical scenarios.
Post by Tony
I happen to disagree with WillyNilly but unlike you I am not being abusive
to/about him. Why do you have to assume that he is trying to make trouble, is
deluded or is in favour of more deaths. Maybe he genuinely believes what he is
saying, there is certainly some evidence that he has provided.
Quite so. But it is a fact of life universally observed that those who must go looking for offence where none is intended will surely find it, if only in their imaginations - the moreso when there is already a long and well-established animus between another party and themselves. It therefore behoves such folk to be even more circumspect when naming and blaming, when in fact they cannot be 100% factually certain that their own selective inferences are 100% watertight.
Indeed, in posting my response I was not referring specifically to
Willy Nilly or anyone else in particular - indeed I referred to a
range of views held by different people. In a general discussion some
posts are justthe expression of a general view based on a range of
previous posts and other publicly available material - I have never
believed that usenet posts are able to be "controlled" by any
particular poster - they are a group discussion rather than a serial
exchange between a poster and the post immediately prior in the
thread. It is well known that there is misinformation available over
the internet - I was not intending to attribute criticisms of that
material to Willy Nilly or anyone else. It is common for people to
presume that vaccination confers immunity - it does not always, and
specifically does not for Covid.
Post by James Christophers
For what little it is worth from my layman's perspective, and from what I have read so far in these matters, I find Firu the more convincing of the two protagonists if only in his lucidity of thought and clarity of expression.
Post by Tony
You are an intolerably abusive old man. The last few weeks have taken its toll
on you, I suspect. Time for a holiday, may I suggest NSW?
Post by Rich80105
There has been a lot of talk about immunisation as through it was a
guarantee of total immunity to the virus - that has never been
claimed, although for some diseases it has been close to being
correct. The vaccines currently available do reduce the chance of
catching Covid lower, and also usually reduce the severity of the
infection for those unlucky enough to get it. Later vaccines may do
better, but we now know that the multile variants do mean something -
some are less harmful than the initial strain; Delta is much more
infectious.
So far the tradeoff of Lockdown and severe restrictions at our borders
has saved a lot of lives, and our economy has done better overall than
other countries that we compare ourselves to. The support given by our
government to businesses has been excellent - and yes there are gaps
and complications, and for some it is not enough, but it has also been
sufficient to save many from dire poverty - and some businesses have
thrived, while others will fail - that is how a free market is
supposed to work, but here that is tempered by the kindness of
government in enabling change to be based on longer term prospects
rather than the sudden shock of the first lockdown.
Every person that does not get vaccinated puts our country in
additional danger - our target must be 100% of those who do not have
medical advice not to vaccinate. Those that do get vaccinated are
protecting themselves and their family and improving New Zealand for
all of us.
Tony
2021-09-07 07:20:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 21:26:05 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Firu
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Firu
If the protein spike a vaccine targets is completely new and novel then
your scenario might be valid. BUT, only if your body recognises Xi as
Alpha, and if the virus has mutated to such an extent then that's not a
given!
That's exactly right, Xi would need to be recognised as Alpha for the
problem to happen. We don't well-understand the thresholds by which
one variant is or isn't recognised as another.
Post by Firu
Arguing that this means it's better to be unvaccinated is just wrong. No
vaccine means you can get every variant.
Yesss, but the natural immunity from the first encounter would help
protect against later variants. The "original antigenic sin" would
become a problem for the unvaccinated too (subsequent to the first
infection), but maybe not as much compared with the vaccinated --
again, not well understood
Post by Firu
US victims of Delta are largely the unvaccinated.
Yes, Delta came out of the unvaccinated population (in India) so the
Alpha "vaccine" is pretty effective against it. But it will be a very
different story for a variant which comes out of the vaccinated
population -- the as-yet hypothetical "Xi" variant.
This is a whole bunch of pseudo science.
Doesn't matter where you get your antibodies from, a needle or a
possibly deadly infection. They all work on the same basic principal.
So you get the same problems, (real and imagined or even undiscovered!)
and the ongoing benefits from the little buggers.
Good things about vaccines, they give your body a leg up so you have a
fighting chance and you don't need to get ill with every variant that
comes along. New variant, new vaccine. and if you have to wait for the
new vaccine to be made? Still worth it in the long run.
Get a bloody jab!
Well said. Some appear to be just trying to create trouble; others are
deluded, still others appear not to be able to think and believe that
deaths are justified in getting our country opened up to visitors as
soon as possible.
A universal condition shared by both polemicist and saboteur-provocateur
alike, including those determined to sow discord and division simply for the
perverse pleasure of it. It tends to occur where there is necessarily
insufficient and/or incomplete authoritative and conclusive evidence that
matters during crises and other such critical scenarios.
Post by Tony
I happen to disagree with WillyNilly but unlike you I am not being abusive
to/about him. Why do you have to assume that he is trying to make trouble, is
deluded or is in favour of more deaths. Maybe he genuinely believes what he is
saying, there is certainly some evidence that he has provided.
Quite so. But it is a fact of life universally observed that those who must
go looking for offence where none is intended will surely find it, if only in
their imaginations - the moreso when there is already a long and
well-established animus between another party and themselves. It therefore
behoves such folk to be even more circumspect when naming and blaming, when in
fact they cannot be 100% factually certain that their own selective inferences
are 100% watertight.
Indeed, in posting my response I was not referring specifically to
Willy Nilly or anyone else in particular - indeed I referred to a
range of views held by different people. In a general discussion some
posts are justthe expression of a general view based on a range of
previous posts and other publicly available material - I have never
believed that usenet posts are able to be "controlled" by any
particular poster - they are a group discussion rather than a serial
exchange between a poster and the post immediately prior in the
thread. It is well known that there is misinformation available over
the internet - I was not intending to attribute criticisms of that
material to Willy Nilly or anyone else. It is common for people to
presume that vaccination confers immunity - it does not always, and
specifically does not for Covid.
Firstly you were most certainly referring to one poster. We all know that.
And secondly you are always the first to try to control what others post.
Do get off the grass.
Post by Rich80105
Post by James Christophers
For what little it is worth from my layman's perspective, and from what I
have read so far in these matters, I find Firu the more convincing of the two
protagonists if only in his lucidity of thought and clarity of expression.
Post by Tony
You are an intolerably abusive old man. The last few weeks have taken its toll
on you, I suspect. Time for a holiday, may I suggest NSW?
Post by Rich80105
There has been a lot of talk about immunisation as through it was a
guarantee of total immunity to the virus - that has never been
claimed, although for some diseases it has been close to being
correct. The vaccines currently available do reduce the chance of
catching Covid lower, and also usually reduce the severity of the
infection for those unlucky enough to get it. Later vaccines may do
better, but we now know that the multile variants do mean something -
some are less harmful than the initial strain; Delta is much more
infectious.
So far the tradeoff of Lockdown and severe restrictions at our borders
has saved a lot of lives, and our economy has done better overall than
other countries that we compare ourselves to. The support given by our
government to businesses has been excellent - and yes there are gaps
and complications, and for some it is not enough, but it has also been
sufficient to save many from dire poverty - and some businesses have
thrived, while others will fail - that is how a free market is
supposed to work, but here that is tempered by the kindness of
government in enabling change to be based on longer term prospects
rather than the sudden shock of the first lockdown.
Every person that does not get vaccinated puts our country in
additional danger - our target must be 100% of those who do not have
medical advice not to vaccinate. Those that do get vaccinated are
protecting themselves and their family and improving New Zealand for
all of us.
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