Discussion:
Securing our Future
(too old to reply)
Rich80105
2021-02-17 21:41:56 UTC
Permalink
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country

and

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year

The North is showing the way!
Willy Nilly
2021-02-18 00:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
You mean, like Texas & California are showing the way -- to major
blackouts! You know nothing about how electricity works, unless you
actually *want* us to lose our electricity, which i wouldn't put past
you.
Rich80105
2021-02-18 00:38:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
You mean, like Texas & California are showing the way -- to major
blackouts! You know nothing about how electricity works, unless you
actually *want* us to lose our electricity, which i wouldn't put past
you.
So do you want the refinery to make losses (as well as taxpayers
subsidising refinery operations)? Do you want to stop a company
generating electricity that they believe they can make a good return
on capital from?

Perhaps you missed this:
" The Far North also has the highest wholesale electricity prices in
the country, allowing the company to get a good price for its power,
Andrews said.

The solar farm may help bring down the price of power in the Far
North, “although we don't want it to lower too much, of course”, he
said. "

So what is your alternative, Willy Nilly? Do you want the government
to step in and take over all generation?

(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Willy Nilly
2021-02-18 00:59:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Because the laws of physics & electricity are the same here as there,
duh. And if you want us to lose our ability to refine petrochemicals,
you're totally wanting us to lose our economic independence and become
the subjects of our new Chinese masters. You are shameless in your
hate of NZ and its people.
Rich80105
2021-02-18 03:10:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Because the laws of physics & electricity are the same here as there,
duh. And if you want us to lose our ability to refine petrochemicals,
you're totally wanting us to lose our economic independence and become
the subjects of our new Chinese masters. You are shameless in your
hate of NZ and its people.
You deleted the relevant url's - here they are again:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country

and

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year

So for the solar farm business, how will that cause blackouts?

For Refinery NZ, what do you want the government to do to force the
company to make a particular decision that they may believe is
contrary to shareholder interests?
Gordon
2021-02-18 08:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Because the laws of physics & electricity are the same here as there,
duh. And if you want us to lose our ability to refine petrochemicals,
you're totally wanting us to lose our economic independence and become
the subjects of our new Chinese masters. You are shameless in your
hate of NZ and its people.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
So for the solar farm business, how will that cause blackouts?
For Refinery NZ, what do you want the government to do to force the
company to make a particular decision that they may believe is
contrary to shareholder interests?
Willy does have a good point that it might be worth the cost of subsidy to
be able to refine oil.
Rich80105
2021-02-18 09:50:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Because the laws of physics & electricity are the same here as there,
duh. And if you want us to lose our ability to refine petrochemicals,
you're totally wanting us to lose our economic independence and become
the subjects of our new Chinese masters. You are shameless in your
hate of NZ and its people.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
So for the solar farm business, how will that cause blackouts?
For Refinery NZ, what do you want the government to do to force the
company to make a particular decision that they may believe is
contrary to shareholder interests?
Willy does have a good point that it might be worth the cost of subsidy to
be able to refine oil.
They are already getting a subsidy; the projected decision relates to
the likelihood of a smaller market and a phasing out of subsidies.
Willy Nilly
2021-02-18 20:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
Willy does have a good point that it might be worth the cost of subsidy to
be able to refine oil.
They are already getting a subsidy; the projected decision relates to
the likelihood of a smaller market and a phasing out of subsidies.
So obviously the subsidy should be maintained, if the possible closure
is because of losing those subsidies. It's a national security
matter, like maintaining armed forces -- funding is required.

Similarly, NZ should be re-establishing its manufacturing & textile &
clothing industries. And our steel industry is totally national
security and must not be lost.

Rich wants to spend only on unimportant and disruptive things. Rich
and a Chinese agent, what's the difference?
Rich80105
2021-02-18 21:54:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
Willy does have a good point that it might be worth the cost of subsidy to
be able to refine oil.
They are already getting a subsidy; the projected decision relates to
the likelihood of a smaller market and a phasing out of subsidies.
So obviously the subsidy should be maintained, if the possible closure
is because of losing those subsidies. It's a national security
matter, like maintaining armed forces -- funding is required.
The current subsidy is in relation to undesirable emissions. There are
a lot of things that should be maintained for the long term security
and benefit of New Zealand - food production being one. Why should a
refinery be given a subsidy?
Post by Willy Nilly
Similarly, NZ should be re-establishing its manufacturing & textile &
clothing industries. And our steel industry is totally national
security and must not be lost.
Those are political rather than national security considerations,
although I accept at the extremes the two can overlay. Are you
advocating government subsidies to those industries as well? Which
political parties would give that any priority at present, Willy?
Post by Willy Nilly
Rich wants to spend only on unimportant and disruptive things. Rich
and a Chinese agent, what's the difference?
Health, Education, Police, Conservation, Social Security? Which of
those are unimportant and disruptive, Willy?
Willy Nilly
2021-02-18 22:16:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willy Nilly
Similarly, NZ should be re-establishing its manufacturing & textile &
clothing industries. And our steel industry is totally national
security and must not be lost.
... Which political parties would give that any priority at present, Willy?
None currently have the brains to, I'll grant you that.
Post by Willy Nilly
Rich wants to spend only on unimportant and disruptive things. Rich
and a Chinese agent, what's the difference?
Health, Education, Police, Conservation, Social Security? Which of
those are unimportant and disruptive, Willy?
You'll be for the Police until you're against them, Rich, what with
all the American Wokeness that our media are working tirelessly to
import.
John Bowes
2021-02-18 23:22:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
Willy does have a good point that it might be worth the cost of subsidy to
be able to refine oil.
They are already getting a subsidy; the projected decision relates to
the likelihood of a smaller market and a phasing out of subsidies.
So obviously the subsidy should be maintained, if the possible closure
is because of losing those subsidies. It's a national security
matter, like maintaining armed forces -- funding is required.
Similarly, NZ should be re-establishing its manufacturing & textile &
clothing industries. And our steel industry is totally national
security and must not be lost.
Rich wants to spend only on unimportant and disruptive things. Rich
and a Chinese agent, what's the difference?
The Chinese agent knows what he's doing........
John Bowes
2021-02-18 11:04:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Because the laws of physics & electricity are the same here as there,
duh. And if you want us to lose our ability to refine petrochemicals,
you're totally wanting us to lose our economic independence and become
the subjects of our new Chinese masters. You are shameless in your
hate of NZ and its people.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
So for the solar farm business, how will that cause blackouts?
By taking funding away from hydro, geothermal and gas fired generation Rich. Solar and wind can't provide all the energy needed. Hell it'll take twenty years to set up solar and wind powered generation and even then it's never going to be as reliable as what we currently have!
Post by Rich80105
For Refinery NZ, what do you want the government to do to force the
company to make a particular decision that they may believe is
contrary to shareholder interests?
Nope let the government show some sense for once in their (and your) useless lives and resume drilling for gas and oil!
George Black
2021-02-18 18:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Because the laws of physics & electricity are the same here as there,
duh. And if you want us to lose our ability to refine petrochemicals,
you're totally wanting us to lose our economic independence and become
the subjects of our new Chinese masters. You are shameless in your
hate of NZ and its people.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
So for the solar farm business, how will that cause blackouts?
By taking funding away from hydro, geothermal and gas fired generation Rich. Solar and wind can't provide all the energy needed. Hell it'll take twenty years to set up solar and wind powered generation and even then it's never going to be as reliable as what we currently have!
Post by Rich80105
For Refinery NZ, what do you want the government to do to force the
company to make a particular decision that they may believe is
contrary to shareholder interests?
Nope let the government show some sense for once in their (and your) useless lives and resume drilling for gas and oil!
Currently in the entire US all wind power generators are frozen in the
country wide storms
And the much vaunted solar has to get sunlight to work.
Strange how our fake news hasn't reported this
Rich80105
2021-02-18 19:13:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Black
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Because the laws of physics & electricity are the same here as there,
duh. And if you want us to lose our ability to refine petrochemicals,
you're totally wanting us to lose our economic independence and become
the subjects of our new Chinese masters. You are shameless in your
hate of NZ and its people.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
So for the solar farm business, how will that cause blackouts?
By taking funding away from hydro, geothermal and gas fired generation Rich. Solar and wind can't provide all the energy needed. Hell it'll take twenty years to set up solar and wind powered generation and even then it's never going to be as reliable as what we currently have!
Post by Rich80105
For Refinery NZ, what do you want the government to do to force the
company to make a particular decision that they may believe is
contrary to shareholder interests?
Nope let the government show some sense for once in their (and your) useless lives and resume drilling for gas and oil!
There is still a considerable area with permits issued that allow for
further drilling - last year one of the permit holders decided to
cease operations due to low expected return - the government did not
stp them, and I think some of the permits allow further exploration
for over another 10 years - but I am not an expert in that area. The
government cannot force them to drill, and the government does not
hold the right to drill itself in those areas still covered by an
active permit. What is it you want the government to do?
Post by George Black
Currently in the entire US all wind power generators are frozen in the
country wide storms
I had heard about Texas, but I had not realised that the storm winds
covered all of the United States. Power generation needs wind between
lower and upper bounds, and these are factored in to design and
placement. Climate change is clearly affecting the US badly to have
such a massive wind storm that it affects the whole country, but still
there will be times when generation can start again Hydro can have
outages as well in times of drought, and some systems have limits on
releasing water to ensure that lake levels are kept to a minimum
(Taupo) and that rivers have adequate flow (Wanganui).
Post by George Black
And the much vaunted solar has to get sunlight to work.
Indeed that may have been factored in to the calculations of the firm
planning to build a 16 MW solar farm at Pukenui
Post by George Black
Strange how our fake news hasn't reported this
They may have come close when they said "The site is also strategic
for the company, and not just because the area has bright sunshine
with little cloud cover."
John Bowes
2021-02-18 23:20:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Because the laws of physics & electricity are the same here as there,
duh. And if you want us to lose our ability to refine petrochemicals,
you're totally wanting us to lose our economic independence and become
the subjects of our new Chinese masters. You are shameless in your
hate of NZ and its people.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
So for the solar farm business, how will that cause blackouts?
By taking funding away from hydro, geothermal and gas fired generation Rich. Solar and wind can't provide all the energy needed. Hell it'll take twenty years to set up solar and wind powered generation and even then it's never going to be as reliable as what we currently have!
Post by Rich80105
For Refinery NZ, what do you want the government to do to force the
company to make a particular decision that they may believe is
contrary to shareholder interests?
Nope let the government show some sense for once in their (and your) useless lives and resume drilling for gas and oil!
There is still a considerable area with permits issued that allow for
further drilling - last year one of the permit holders decided to
cease operations due to low expected return - the government did not
stp them, and I think some of the permits allow further exploration
for over another 10 years - but I am not an expert in that area. The
government cannot force them to drill, and the government does not
hold the right to drill itself in those areas still covered by an
active permit. What is it you want the government to do?
you need to get your head out of your arse Rich! Ardern has made it quite clear that while she is dictator industry can kiss using ol, gas and coal goodbye! Shit the Climate Change Commission (i.e. government pet fuckwits) have told us we have to destroy the economy by 2034!
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Currently in the entire US all wind power generators are frozen in the
country wide storms
I had heard about Texas, but I had not realised that the storm winds
covered all of the United States. Power generation needs wind between
lower and upper bounds, and these are factored in to design and
placement. Climate change is clearly affecting the US badly to have
such a massive wind storm that it affects the whole country, but still
there will be times when generation can start again Hydro can have
outages as well in times of drought, and some systems have limits on
releasing water to ensure that lake levels are kept to a minimum
(Taupo) and that rivers have adequate flow (Wanganui).
No Rich. What is affecting the states is a massive storm that's come down from the Arctic! It's not just Texas being affected but Europe is suffering from the same weather. Different storm but the same low temperatures and violent winds!
How did the Wanganui river get in here? It has no hydro and relies on snow melt from Ruapehu and friends for it's water.
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
And the much vaunted solar has to get sunlight to work.
Indeed that may have been factored in to the calculations of the firm
planning to build a 16 MW solar farm at Pukenui
Post by George Black
Strange how our fake news hasn't reported this
They may have come close when they said "The site is also strategic
for the company, and not just because the area has bright sunshine
with little cloud cover."
ffs! It's not just sunshine needed Rich. It's the quality of it. That's why most of the major solar farms are in areas either side of the equator! Don't you read anything your detractors post or even fact check them? Oops sorry fact checking is anathema to you Rich isn't it :)
Rich80105
2021-02-19 00:09:11 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 15:20:10 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Because the laws of physics & electricity are the same here as there,
duh. And if you want us to lose our ability to refine petrochemicals,
you're totally wanting us to lose our economic independence and become
the subjects of our new Chinese masters. You are shameless in your
hate of NZ and its people.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
So for the solar farm business, how will that cause blackouts?
By taking funding away from hydro, geothermal and gas fired generation Rich. Solar and wind can't provide all the energy needed. Hell it'll take twenty years to set up solar and wind powered generation and even then it's never going to be as reliable as what we currently have!
Post by Rich80105
For Refinery NZ, what do you want the government to do to force the
company to make a particular decision that they may believe is
contrary to shareholder interests?
Nope let the government show some sense for once in their (and your) useless lives and resume drilling for gas and oil!
There is still a considerable area with permits issued that allow for
further drilling - last year one of the permit holders decided to
cease operations due to low expected return - the government did not
stp them, and I think some of the permits allow further exploration
for over another 10 years - but I am not an expert in that area. The
government cannot force them to drill, and the government does not
hold the right to drill itself in those areas still covered by an
active permit. What is it you want the government to do?
you need to get your head out of your arse Rich! Ardern has made it quite clear that while she is dictator industry can kiss using ol, gas and coal goodbye! Shit the Climate Change Commission (i.e. government pet fuckwits) have told us we have to destroy the economy by 2034!
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Currently in the entire US all wind power generators are frozen in the
country wide storms
I had heard about Texas, but I had not realised that the storm winds
covered all of the United States. Power generation needs wind between
lower and upper bounds, and these are factored in to design and
placement. Climate change is clearly affecting the US badly to have
such a massive wind storm that it affects the whole country, but still
there will be times when generation can start again Hydro can have
outages as well in times of drought, and some systems have limits on
releasing water to ensure that lake levels are kept to a minimum
(Taupo) and that rivers have adequate flow (Wanganui).
No Rich. What is affecting the states is a massive storm that's come down from the Arctic! It's not just Texas being affected but Europe is suffering from the same weather. Different storm but the same low temperatures and violent winds!
I had not realised that it affected the whole of the US . . .
Post by John Bowes
How did the Wanganui river get in here? It has no hydro and relies on snow melt from Ruapehu and friends for it's water.
Part of the head waters for the Wanganui River (or Whanganui if you
prefer) re diverted and come down neat Tokaanu - there are agreements
about volumes so that the Wanganui River retains sufficient flow
levels.
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
And the much vaunted solar has to get sunlight to work.
Indeed that may have been factored in to the calculations of the firm
planning to build a 16 MW solar farm at Pukenui
Post by George Black
Strange how our fake news hasn't reported this
They may have come close when they said "The site is also strategic
for the company, and not just because the area has bright sunshine
with little cloud cover."
ffs! It's not just sunshine needed Rich. It's the quality of it. That's why most of the major solar farms are in areas either side of the equator! Don't you read anything your detractors post or even fact check them? Oops sorry fact checking is anathema to you Rich isn't it :)
Did you read the article? There was a picture of a floating solar farm
. . .
John Bowes
2021-02-19 08:50:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 15:20:10 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Because the laws of physics & electricity are the same here as there,
duh. And if you want us to lose our ability to refine petrochemicals,
you're totally wanting us to lose our economic independence and become
the subjects of our new Chinese masters. You are shameless in your
hate of NZ and its people.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
So for the solar farm business, how will that cause blackouts?
By taking funding away from hydro, geothermal and gas fired generation Rich. Solar and wind can't provide all the energy needed. Hell it'll take twenty years to set up solar and wind powered generation and even then it's never going to be as reliable as what we currently have!
Post by Rich80105
For Refinery NZ, what do you want the government to do to force the
company to make a particular decision that they may believe is
contrary to shareholder interests?
Nope let the government show some sense for once in their (and your) useless lives and resume drilling for gas and oil!
There is still a considerable area with permits issued that allow for
further drilling - last year one of the permit holders decided to
cease operations due to low expected return - the government did not
stp them, and I think some of the permits allow further exploration
for over another 10 years - but I am not an expert in that area. The
government cannot force them to drill, and the government does not
hold the right to drill itself in those areas still covered by an
active permit. What is it you want the government to do?
you need to get your head out of your arse Rich! Ardern has made it quite clear that while she is dictator industry can kiss using ol, gas and coal goodbye! Shit the Climate Change Commission (i.e. government pet fuckwits) have told us we have to destroy the economy by 2034!
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Currently in the entire US all wind power generators are frozen in the
country wide storms
I had heard about Texas, but I had not realised that the storm winds
covered all of the United States. Power generation needs wind between
lower and upper bounds, and these are factored in to design and
placement. Climate change is clearly affecting the US badly to have
such a massive wind storm that it affects the whole country, but still
there will be times when generation can start again Hydro can have
outages as well in times of drought, and some systems have limits on
releasing water to ensure that lake levels are kept to a minimum
(Taupo) and that rivers have adequate flow (Wanganui).
No Rich. What is affecting the states is a massive storm that's come down from the Arctic! It's not just Texas being affected but Europe is suffering from the same weather. Different storm but the same low temperatures and violent winds!
I had not realised that it affected the whole of the US . . .
So your stupid enough to think as freezing storm can just suddenly pop up in Texas? You are dumber than I thought you were Rich.....
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
How did the Wanganui river get in here? It has no hydro and relies on snow melt from Ruapehu and friends for it's water.
Part of the head waters for the Wanganui River (or Whanganui if you
prefer) re diverted and come down neat Tokaanu - there are agreements
about volumes so that the Wanganui River retains sufficient flow
levels.
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
And the much vaunted solar has to get sunlight to work.
Indeed that may have been factored in to the calculations of the firm
planning to build a 16 MW solar farm at Pukenui
Post by George Black
Strange how our fake news hasn't reported this
They may have come close when they said "The site is also strategic
for the company, and not just because the area has bright sunshine
with little cloud cover."
ffs! It's not just sunshine needed Rich. It's the quality of it. That's why most of the major solar farms are in areas either side of the equator! Don't you read anything your detractors post or even fact check them? Oops sorry fact checking is anathema to you Rich isn't it :)
Did you read the article? There was a picture of a floating solar farm
. . .
What does that have to do with your stupidity Rich? You suggesting we cover Taupo with them? funny but like Hydrogen cells they're still trying to improve solar even after all these years!
Rich80105
2021-02-19 19:56:17 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 00:50:47 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 15:20:10 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Because the laws of physics & electricity are the same here as there,
duh. And if you want us to lose our ability to refine petrochemicals,
you're totally wanting us to lose our economic independence and become
the subjects of our new Chinese masters. You are shameless in your
hate of NZ and its people.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
So for the solar farm business, how will that cause blackouts?
By taking funding away from hydro, geothermal and gas fired generation Rich. Solar and wind can't provide all the energy needed. Hell it'll take twenty years to set up solar and wind powered generation and even then it's never going to be as reliable as what we currently have!
Post by Rich80105
For Refinery NZ, what do you want the government to do to force the
company to make a particular decision that they may believe is
contrary to shareholder interests?
Nope let the government show some sense for once in their (and your) useless lives and resume drilling for gas and oil!
There is still a considerable area with permits issued that allow for
further drilling - last year one of the permit holders decided to
cease operations due to low expected return - the government did not
stp them, and I think some of the permits allow further exploration
for over another 10 years - but I am not an expert in that area. The
government cannot force them to drill, and the government does not
hold the right to drill itself in those areas still covered by an
active permit. What is it you want the government to do?
you need to get your head out of your arse Rich! Ardern has made it quite clear that while she is dictator industry can kiss using ol, gas and coal goodbye! Shit the Climate Change Commission (i.e. government pet fuckwits) have told us we have to destroy the economy by 2034!
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
Currently in the entire US all wind power generators are frozen in the
country wide storms
I had heard about Texas, but I had not realised that the storm winds
covered all of the United States. Power generation needs wind between
lower and upper bounds, and these are factored in to design and
placement. Climate change is clearly affecting the US badly to have
such a massive wind storm that it affects the whole country, but still
there will be times when generation can start again Hydro can have
outages as well in times of drought, and some systems have limits on
releasing water to ensure that lake levels are kept to a minimum
(Taupo) and that rivers have adequate flow (Wanganui).
No Rich. What is affecting the states is a massive storm that's come down from the Arctic! It's not just Texas being affected but Europe is suffering from the same weather. Different storm but the same low temperatures and violent winds!
I had not realised that it affected the whole of the US . . .
So your stupid enough to think as freezing storm can just suddenly pop up in Texas? You are dumber than I thought you were Rich.....
The storm was not in the entire US, and not all wind power generators
throughout the US were frozen. I "had now realised" that the storm
had affected the whole of the US because our assertion was not true.
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
How did the Wanganui river get in here? It has no hydro and relies on snow melt from Ruapehu and friends for it's water.
Part of the head waters for the Wanganui River (or Whanganui if you
prefer) re diverted and come down neat Tokaanu - there are agreements
about volumes so that the Wanganui River retains sufficient flow
levels.
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by George Black
And the much vaunted solar has to get sunlight to work.
Indeed that may have been factored in to the calculations of the firm
planning to build a 16 MW solar farm at Pukenui
Post by George Black
Strange how our fake news hasn't reported this
They may have come close when they said "The site is also strategic
for the company, and not just because the area has bright sunshine
with little cloud cover."
ffs! It's not just sunshine needed Rich. It's the quality of it. That's why most of the major solar farms are in areas either side of the equator! Don't you read anything your detractors post or even fact check them? Oops sorry fact checking is anathema to you Rich isn't it :)
Did you read the article? There was a picture of a floating solar farm
. . .
What does that have to do with your stupidity Rich?
You suggesting we cover Taupo with them?
No, why would I want to be that silly?
Post by John Bowes
funny but like Hydrogen cells they're still trying to improve solar even after all these years!
Funny but they are still trying to improve petrol driven vehicles
after all these years!

Was there a point you were trying to make?
John Bowes
2021-02-18 23:09:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Black
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Because the laws of physics & electricity are the same here as there,
duh. And if you want us to lose our ability to refine petrochemicals,
you're totally wanting us to lose our economic independence and become
the subjects of our new Chinese masters. You are shameless in your
hate of NZ and its people.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
So for the solar farm business, how will that cause blackouts?
By taking funding away from hydro, geothermal and gas fired generation Rich. Solar and wind can't provide all the energy needed. Hell it'll take twenty years to set up solar and wind powered generation and even then it's never going to be as reliable as what we currently have!
Post by Rich80105
For Refinery NZ, what do you want the government to do to force the
company to make a particular decision that they may believe is
contrary to shareholder interests?
Nope let the government show some sense for once in their (and your) useless lives and resume drilling for gas and oil!
Currently in the entire US all wind power generators are frozen in the
country wide storms
And the much vaunted solar has to get sunlight to work.
Strange how our fake news hasn't reported this
Or the problems getting rid of blades and panels when they wear out. The sort of things imbeciles like Rich,Adern and the stupid Greens think about. Telling Rich about it is a lot like herding cats :)
Rich80105
2021-02-19 00:00:03 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 15:09:52 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by George Black
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Because the laws of physics & electricity are the same here as there,
duh. And if you want us to lose our ability to refine petrochemicals,
you're totally wanting us to lose our economic independence and become
the subjects of our new Chinese masters. You are shameless in your
hate of NZ and its people.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
So for the solar farm business, how will that cause blackouts?
By taking funding away from hydro, geothermal and gas fired generation Rich. Solar and wind can't provide all the energy needed. Hell it'll take twenty years to set up solar and wind powered generation and even then it's never going to be as reliable as what we currently have!
Post by Rich80105
For Refinery NZ, what do you want the government to do to force the
company to make a particular decision that they may believe is
contrary to shareholder interests?
Nope let the government show some sense for once in their (and your) useless lives and resume drilling for gas and oil!
Currently in the entire US all wind power generators are frozen in the
country wide storms
And the much vaunted solar has to get sunlight to work.
Strange how our fake news hasn't reported this
Or the problems getting rid of blades and panels when they wear out. The sort of things imbeciles like Rich,Adern and the stupid Greens think about. Telling Rich about it is a lot like herding cats :)
I'm glad you are pleased by those who are thinking about those
problems - it must save you a lot of concern. There are similar
propblems with disposal of various building products, motor vehicles
(which contain a lot of both metal and plastics), electronic goods,
vehicle tires. Happy to be of service, John.
John Bowes
2021-02-19 08:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 15:09:52 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by George Black
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
(And by the way I know nothing about blackouts in Texas & California -
perhaps you could explain their relevance to us in New Zealand, and to
these articles in particulr . . .)
Because the laws of physics & electricity are the same here as there,
duh. And if you want us to lose our ability to refine petrochemicals,
you're totally wanting us to lose our economic independence and become
the subjects of our new Chinese masters. You are shameless in your
hate of NZ and its people.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
So for the solar farm business, how will that cause blackouts?
By taking funding away from hydro, geothermal and gas fired generation Rich. Solar and wind can't provide all the energy needed. Hell it'll take twenty years to set up solar and wind powered generation and even then it's never going to be as reliable as what we currently have!
Post by Rich80105
For Refinery NZ, what do you want the government to do to force the
company to make a particular decision that they may believe is
contrary to shareholder interests?
Nope let the government show some sense for once in their (and your) useless lives and resume drilling for gas and oil!
Currently in the entire US all wind power generators are frozen in the
country wide storms
And the much vaunted solar has to get sunlight to work.
Strange how our fake news hasn't reported this
Or the problems getting rid of blades and panels when they wear out. The sort of things imbeciles like Rich,Adern and the stupid Greens think about. Telling Rich about it is a lot like herding cats :)
I'm glad you are pleased by those who are thinking about those
problems - it must save you a lot of concern. There are similar
propblems with disposal of various building products, motor vehicles
(which contain a lot of both metal and plastics), electronic goods,
vehicle tires. Happy to be of service, John.
Happy for nothing I as usual Rich. Just self serving crap like we get from your PM!
Firu
2021-02-19 12:38:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willy Nilly
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
You mean, like Texas & California are showing the way -- to major
blackouts! You know nothing about how electricity works, unless you
actually *want* us to lose our electricity, which i wouldn't put past
you.
Cople of things about the Texas power failures.
First up, the gas fired generating stations failed. They're not designed
for the low temperatures seen recently.

Secondly, Texas is the only state in the continental US to not be
connected to the US nationwide grids. All to do with Texas not wanting
federal oversight of 'their' electric.

Adding wind and solar to the mix in no way made the situation worse.
Tony
2021-02-18 02:53:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong. They are both at best ancillary sources
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
Rich80105
2021-02-18 03:27:23 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:53:31 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
Nobody is asking for that to be the case. Hydro will continue to be
our main means of electricity generation for many years to come, but
it can be hard to get that power to the far north . . .
Post by Tony
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
What needs to be perfected?
Post by Tony
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
So? Caol has problems too. The issue is whether the overall costs
outweigh the overall benefits.
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
Who has suggested that. By 'showing the way"I was implying that the
north are making something happen - what they do may not be
appropriate elsewhere, but they are not just sitting around asking for
a government handout - we voted against that mentailty in 2017.
Post by Tony
They are both at best ancillary sources
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
Indeed, as I said above hydro is likely to remain our major source of
power for some time to come.
Post by Tony
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Come back when someone has got it working . . .
Post by Tony
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
Again, come back when someone has got it working . . .
Tony
2021-02-18 04:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:53:31 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
Nobody is asking for that to be the case. Hydro will continue to be
our main means of electricity generation for many years to come, but
it can be hard to get that power to the far north . . .
Off topic.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
What needs to be perfected?
Obviously storage in dams.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
So? Caol has problems too. The issue is whether the overall costs
outweigh the overall benefits.
No what nonsense. The issue is what actually works without making things worse.
And wind and solar might just do that.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
Who has suggested that. By 'showing the way"I was implying that the
north are making something happen - what they do may not be
appropriate elsewhere, but they are not just sitting around asking for
a government handout - we voted against that mentailty in 2017.
No we did not, it is alive and well in your posts. What you meant is obvious.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
They are both at best ancillary sources
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
Indeed, as I said above hydro is likely to remain our major source of
power for some time to come.
SO, do you have anything of value to add?
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Come back when someone has got it working . . .
So let's just do what we can even if it is stupid. Yeah right, good on you
Rich. Bury your head and fart into the wind./
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
Again, come back when someone has got it working . . .
Again read above, meanwhile go away.
Rich80105
2021-02-18 09:37:56 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 22:15:46 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:53:31 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
Nobody is asking for that to be the case. Hydro will continue to be
our main means of electricity generation for many years to come, but
it can be hard to get that power to the far north . . .
Off topic.
You referred to current power generation - nobody has suggested
replacing hydro. Direct response to your comment!
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
What needs to be perfected?
Obviously storage in dams.
We have a lot of experience building dams - what is the problem that
you see?
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
So? Caol has problems too. The issue is whether the overall costs
outweigh the overall benefits.
No what nonsense. The issue is what actually works without making things worse.
And wind and solar might just do that.
So are you calling for the companies to make other decisions than the
ones they have made or are likely to make? What are you arguing
against?
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
Who has suggested that. By 'showing the way"I was implying that the
north are making something happen - what they do may not be
appropriate elsewhere, but they are not just sitting around asking for
a government handout - we voted against that mentailty in 2017.
No we did not, it is alive and well in your posts. What you meant is obvious.
You are out on your own there. Are you objecting to these two
companies making the decisions they have or are likely to make? Do you
know more about refining or power generation than they do?
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
They are both at best ancillary sources
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
Indeed, as I said above hydro is likely to remain our major source of
power for some time to come.
SO, do you have anything of value to add?
I drew the attention of nz.general to some significant company
decisions - what are you expecting? Do you distrust listed companies?
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Come back when someone has got it working . . .
So let's just do what we can even if it is stupid. Yeah right, good on you
Rich. Bury your head and fart into the wind./
What is stupid? You are advocating fusion power - do you have an
example of how it works and whether there are adverse side-effects?
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
Again, come back when someone has got it working . . .
Again read above, meanwhile go away.
Who has it working as a regular fuel source, Tony?
Tony
2021-02-18 20:01:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 22:15:46 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:53:31 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
Nobody is asking for that to be the case. Hydro will continue to be
our main means of electricity generation for many years to come, but
it can be hard to get that power to the far north . . .
Off topic.
You referred to current power generation - nobody has suggested
replacing hydro.
I did not say they had, what are you on?
Post by Rich80105
Direct response to your comment!
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
What needs to be perfected?
Obviously storage in dams.
We have a lot of experience building dams - what is the problem that
you see?
It has not yet been done, so why don't you come back when it has (Where did I
read that???)
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
So? Caol has problems too. The issue is whether the overall costs
outweigh the overall benefits.
No what nonsense. The issue is what actually works without making things worse.
And wind and solar might just do that.
So are you calling for the companies to make other decisions than the
ones they have made or are likely to make? What are you arguing
against?
Nonsensical question, please translate into English.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
Who has suggested that. By 'showing the way"I was implying that the
north are making something happen - what they do may not be
appropriate elsewhere, but they are not just sitting around asking for
a government handout - we voted against that mentailty in 2017.
No we did not, it is alive and well in your posts. What you meant is obvious.
You are out on your own there. Are you objecting to these two
companies making the decisions they have or are likely to make?
What two companies?
Post by Rich80105
Do you
know more about refining or power generation than they do?
Don't be silly but I doi have a degree in a related subject.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
They are both at best ancillary sources
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
Indeed, as I said above hydro is likely to remain our major source of
power for some time to come.
SO, do you have anything of value to add?
I drew the attention of nz.general to some significant company
decisions - what are you expecting? Do you distrust listed companies?
You stupid man, I suggested nothing of the sort, you are being deliberately
obtuse.
They are in fact not at all significant which is my point really, you called
this thread "Securing the future". You have posted nothing that points to that
- just politics.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Come back when someone has got it working . . .
So let's just do what we can even if it is stupid. Yeah right, good on you
Rich. Bury your head and fart into the wind./
What is stupid? You are advocating fusion power - do you have an
example of how it works and whether there are adverse side-effects?
The point is that you are urging us to use a form of energy that has
significant drawbacks - I am suggesting that we have time to wait for something
dramatically better. If you want to learn about fusion just google it, there is
heaps of information available.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
Again, come back when someone has got it working . . .
Again read above, meanwhile go away.
Who has it working as a regular fuel source, Tony?
Several car manufacturers all over the wordl. Just google it. Hydrogen cars and
other vehicles are in use today. If you did not know that then maybe you have
done no research.
Gordon
2021-02-18 08:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:53:31 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
Nobody is asking for that to be the case. Hydro will continue to be
our main means of electricity generation for many years to come, but
it can be hard to get that power to the far north . . .
Hard? expensive. Look NZ takes power from the Southern lakes and "ships" it
the way to Auckland and beyond.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
What needs to be perfected?
Well, one needs a no full dam and some pumps and pipes in the right place.
Then things need to be tuned to get good effeciency.

As I said NZ solar and wind power is so low in relation to hydro and
geothermal that all wind and solar can go straight to the grid.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
So? Caol has problems too. The issue is whether the overall costs
outweigh the overall benefits.
Okay Rich, you are now your name sake for you must know how to recycle the
batteries.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
Who has suggested that. By 'showing the way"I was implying that the
north are making something happen - what they do may not be
appropriate elsewhere, but they are not just sitting around asking for
a government handout - we voted against that mentailty in 2017.
Post by Tony
They are both at best ancillary sources
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
Indeed, as I said above hydro is likely to remain our major source of
power for some time to come.
Post by Tony
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Come back when someone has got it working . . .
Post by Tony
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
Again, come back when someone has got it working . . .
They have.

https://www.thebridgenewsng.com/2018/03/23/the-hydrogen-powered-cars-big-setback/

as an example. Another

https://www.wired.com/2014/09/toyotas-new-hydrogen-powered-car-asks-high-price-mediocrity/
Rich80105
2021-02-18 09:49:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:53:31 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
Nobody is asking for that to be the case. Hydro will continue to be
our main means of electricity generation for many years to come, but
it can be hard to get that power to the far north . . .
Hard? expensive. Look NZ takes power from the Southern lakes and "ships" it
the way to Auckland and beyond.
With significant transmission loss. Is there still DC across the
strait so there would be conversion losses as well? Apparently the
company thinks it can make money, so long as they are not so succesful
that the price drops too much . . .
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
What needs to be perfected?
Well, one needs a no full dam and some pumps and pipes in the right place.
Then things need to be tuned to get good effeciency.
As I said NZ solar and wind power is so low in relation to hydro and
geothermal that all wind and solar can go straight to the grid.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
So? Caol has problems too. The issue is whether the overall costs
outweigh the overall benefits.
Okay Rich, you are now your name sake for you must know how to recycle the
batteries.
What batteries? The solar panels aresaid in the article to be
supplying houses. Plenty of houses do already use batteries - what
happens to them now, Gordon?
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
Who has suggested that. By 'showing the way"I was implying that the
north are making something happen - what they do may not be
appropriate elsewhere, but they are not just sitting around asking for
a government handout - we voted against that mentailty in 2017.
Post by Tony
They are both at best ancillary sources
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
Indeed, as I said above hydro is likely to remain our major source of
power for some time to come.
Post by Tony
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Come back when someone has got it working . . .
Post by Tony
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
Again, come back when someone has got it working . . .
They have.
https://www.thebridgenewsng.com/2018/03/23/the-hydrogen-powered-cars-big-setback/
as an example. Another
https://www.wired.com/2014/09/toyotas-new-hydrogen-powered-car-asks-high-price-mediocrity/
Thanks for those links - I wasn't aware of them. Sounds like there is
a way to go, but it is most encouraging - again I suspect we will
keep using hydro for houses and factories for a long time, and the
decisions being made by the companies I referred to are an indication
that New Zealand does have some companies not just sitting ont heir
hands.
Tony
2021-02-18 19:51:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:53:31 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
Nobody is asking for that to be the case. Hydro will continue to be
our main means of electricity generation for many years to come, but
it can be hard to get that power to the far north . . .
Hard? expensive. Look NZ takes power from the Southern lakes and "ships" it
the way to Auckland and beyond.
With significant transmission loss. Is there still DC across the
strait so there would be conversion losses as well? Apparently the
company thinks it can make money, so long as they are not so succesful
that the price drops too much . . .
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
What needs to be perfected?
Well, one needs a no full dam and some pumps and pipes in the right place.
Then things need to be tuned to get good effeciency.
As I said NZ solar and wind power is so low in relation to hydro and
geothermal that all wind and solar can go straight to the grid.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
So? Caol has problems too. The issue is whether the overall costs
outweigh the overall benefits.
Okay Rich, you are now your name sake for you must know how to recycle the
batteries.
What batteries? The solar panels aresaid in the article to be
supplying houses. Plenty of houses do already use batteries - what
happens to them now, Gordon?
Batteries are used in EVs and houses and any solar installation and they are
not currently re-used or recycled. Pretending the problem does not exist will
not work.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
Who has suggested that. By 'showing the way"I was implying that the
north are making something happen - what they do may not be
appropriate elsewhere, but they are not just sitting around asking for
a government handout - we voted against that mentailty in 2017.
Post by Tony
They are both at best ancillary sources
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
Indeed, as I said above hydro is likely to remain our major source of
power for some time to come.
Post by Tony
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Come back when someone has got it working . . .
Post by Tony
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
Again, come back when someone has got it working . . .
They have.
https://www.thebridgenewsng.com/2018/03/23/the-hydrogen-powered-cars-big-setback/
as an example. Another
https://www.wired.com/2014/09/toyotas-new-hydrogen-powered-car-asks-high-price-mediocrity/
Thanks for those links - I wasn't aware of them. Sounds like there is
a way to go, but it is most encouraging - again I suspect we will
keep using hydro for houses and factories for a long time, and the
decisions being made by the companies I referred to are an indication
that New Zealand does have some companies not just sitting ont heir
hands.
John Bowes
2021-02-18 11:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:53:31 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
Nobody is asking for that to be the case. Hydro will continue to be
our main means of electricity generation for many years to come, but
it can be hard to get that power to the far north . . .
BULLSHIT! Theirs a 440kv transmission line between Marsden and Auckland. Reverse the flow when they shut down Marsden point and the North will have power to burn!
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
What needs to be perfected?
Post by Tony
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
So? Caol has problems too. The issue is whether the overall costs
outweigh the overall benefits.
What has coal (or as you put it caol) got to do with Marsden Point? It's bloody important to NZSteel because you can't make steel without coal. Electricity doesn't give the needed heat!
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
Who has suggested that. By 'showing the way"I was implying that the
north are making something happen - what they do may not be
appropriate elsewhere, but they are not just sitting around asking for
a government handout - we voted against that mentailty in 2017.
The North isn't doing anything but getting ready to watch hundreds or even thousands of jobs disappear and we didn't vote for Ardern to be PM she had to bribe Winston to achieve that!
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
They are both at best ancillary sources
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
Indeed, as I said above hydro is likely to remain our major source of
power for some time to come.
And it will need coal and gas to support it as is the case today. In fact if we go full ev they'll be even more important because our power generation is only just keeping up with demand now!
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Come back when someone has got it working . . .
It is working Rich. Blindly denying it's going to be needed in your carbon zero world is just drug dreams of half wits, Marxist and imbeciles like you :)
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
Again, come back when someone has got it working . . .
Nissan is building trucks using hydrogen cells today Rich and the USA is getting on board with the technology!
I suggest Rich that YOU come back when Ardern gets her government working......
Gordon
2021-02-18 07:46:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Tony, wind power has no batteries, fed straight into the national grid. Cars
have the batteries.

In (green) powered NZ you use solar and wind and then use hydro for to top up.
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
I did not read it that way. Rich was saying that the North was leading the
way on the "green" path



They are both at best ancillary sources
Post by Tony
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
The hydrogen economy. Been talked about for many years. To date plants are
the only ones doing it in any numbers.

Question, How, where do you get the hydrogen from? Very abundant on earth
but bound to other atoms. Hydrogen also leaks easily, burns when all to
easily and gives one range anxiety.
Tony
2021-02-18 19:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Tony, wind power has no batteries, fed straight into the national grid. Cars
have the batteries.
Yes Gordon I knwo that, but the increased generation of electricity by either
of those means almost demands storage which at the moment is only batteries.
Post by Gordon
In (green) powered NZ you use solar and wind and then use hydro for to top up.
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
I did not read it that way. Rich was saying that the North was leading the
way on the "green" path
They are both at best ancillary sources
Post by Tony
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
The hydrogen economy. Been talked about for many years. To date plants are
the only ones doing it in any numbers.
Question, How, where do you get the hydrogen from? Very abundant on earth
but bound to other atoms. Hydrogen also leaks easily, burns when all to
easily and gives one range anxiety.
Read it up Gordon, there are hydrogen vehicles today. Some believe that trucks,
aircraft and ships would be a good use for hydrogen fuel cells and if the
intent was to reduce polution then cars could follow.
Rich80105
2021-02-18 20:32:19 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:48:13 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Tony, wind power has no batteries, fed straight into the national grid. Cars
have the batteries.
Yes Gordon I knwo that, but the increased generation of electricity by either
of those means almost demands storage which at the moment is only batteries.
The balancing of supply and demand is very complex; but the simplest
use of excess supply is to build up water levels behind dams. That is
why the power stations are largely remotely controlled using meters
and electronics to open and close valves - Waikaremoana for example is
I have been told controlled from Tokaanu, enbling output to be
adjusted in real time across a large system (and the loss of jobs in
some hydro towns). In the North, it may be possible to use excess
supply to pump water to small dams and power irrigation for farmers;
or to enable hydroponics. The projections are however for an increase
in demand for electricity for a variety of uses. Clearly one company
sees sufficient demand to build a solar array. If they get it right
they will prosper, if they are wrong you can tell them they should
have asked you.
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
In (green) powered NZ you use solar and wind and then use hydro for to top up.
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
I did not read it that way. Rich was saying that the North was leading the
way on the "green" path
Yes - but also a more distributed system, with less reliance on coal
and oil and long transmission distances, and lower costs for climate
change commitments which have been verbally supported by successive
governments but with little action to reduce the cost of failure to
meet commitments.
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
They are both at best ancillary sources
Post by Tony
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
The hydrogen economy. Been talked about for many years. To date plants are
the only ones doing it in any numbers.
Question, How, where do you get the hydrogen from? Very abundant on earth
but bound to other atoms. Hydrogen also leaks easily, burns when all to
easily and gives one range anxiety.
Read it up Gordon, there are hydrogen vehicles today. Some believe that trucks,
aircraft and ships would be a good use for hydrogen fuel cells and if the
intent was to reduce polution then cars could follow.
Hydrogen vehicles are not widely available; solar power is. We cannot
keep waiting for a silver bullet to meet costs of non-compliance with
agreements we willingly entered into, and we have the opportunity now
to take advantage of our wind and sunshine - the articles show two
companies who ar helping New Zealand to meet wider goals, while also
meeting the needs of their shareholders. That is the way markets are
supposed to work - is there some other way you want things to happen?
Do you disagree with the companies? Do you think the government should
be invovled somehow?
Tony
2021-02-18 23:04:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:48:13 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Tony, wind power has no batteries, fed straight into the national grid. Cars
have the batteries.
Yes Gordon I knwo that, but the increased generation of electricity by either
of those means almost demands storage which at the moment is only batteries.
The balancing of supply and demand is very complex; but the simplest
use of excess supply is to build up water levels behind dams. That is
why the power stations are largely remotely controlled using meters
and electronics to open and close valves - Waikaremoana for example is
I have been told controlled from Tokaanu, enbling output to be
adjusted in real time across a large system (and the loss of jobs in
some hydro towns). In the North, it may be possible to use excess
supply to pump water to small dams and power irrigation for farmers;
or to enable hydroponics. The projections are however for an increase
in demand for electricity for a variety of uses. Clearly one company
sees sufficient demand to build a solar array. If they get it right
they will prosper, if they are wrong you can tell them they should
have asked you.
You rude prick.
Do some research, what you describe is not actually done yet, we do not pump
water back up into dams.
It is a massive project and so far as I know not approved at this time.
When it happens do come back here and make a contribution instead of making
stuff up.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
In (green) powered NZ you use solar and wind and then use hydro for to top up.
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
I did not read it that way. Rich was saying that the North was leading the
way on the "green" path
Yes - but also a more distributed system, with less reliance on coal
and oil and long transmission distances, and lower costs for climate
change commitments which have been verbally supported by successive
governments but with little action to reduce the cost of failure to
meet commitments.
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
They are both at best ancillary sources
Post by Tony
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also
do
not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes
they
are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
The hydrogen economy. Been talked about for many years. To date plants are
the only ones doing it in any numbers.
Question, How, where do you get the hydrogen from? Very abundant on earth
but bound to other atoms. Hydrogen also leaks easily, burns when all to
easily and gives one range anxiety.
Read it up Gordon, there are hydrogen vehicles today. Some believe that trucks,
aircraft and ships would be a good use for hydrogen fuel cells and if the
intent was to reduce polution then cars could follow.
Hydrogen vehicles are not widely available; solar power is. We cannot
keep waiting for a silver bullet to meet costs of non-compliance with
agreements we willingly entered into, and we have the opportunity now
to take advantage of our wind and sunshine - the articles show two
companies who ar helping New Zealand to meet wider goals, while also
meeting the needs of their shareholders. That is the way markets are
supposed to work - is there some other way you want things to happen?
Do you disagree with the companies? Do you think the government should
be invovled somehow?
I argue that the insistence by people like you on using solar and wind is in
fact your "silver bullet". Both technologies are in their infancy and both have
serious drawbacks.
John Bowes
2021-02-18 23:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:48:13 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been
perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Tony, wind power has no batteries, fed straight into the national grid. Cars
have the batteries.
Yes Gordon I knwo that, but the increased generation of electricity by either
of those means almost demands storage which at the moment is only batteries.
The balancing of supply and demand is very complex; but the simplest
use of excess supply is to build up water levels behind dams. That is
why the power stations are largely remotely controlled using meters
and electronics to open and close valves - Waikaremoana for example is
I have been told controlled from Tokaanu, enbling output to be
adjusted in real time across a large system (and the loss of jobs in
some hydro towns). In the North, it may be possible to use excess
supply to pump water to small dams and power irrigation for farmers;
or to enable hydroponics. The projections are however for an increase
in demand for electricity for a variety of uses. Clearly one company
sees sufficient demand to build a solar array. If they get it right
they will prosper, if they are wrong you can tell them they should
have asked you.
You rude prick.
Do some research, what you describe is not actually done yet, we do not pump
water back up into dams.
Is it a perpetual motion dream? How much energy will be used to do this? Things fools like Rich never think about let alone comprehend.
Post by Tony
It is a massive project and so far as I know not approved at this time.
When it happens do come back here and make a contribution instead of making
stuff up.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
In (green) powered NZ you use solar and wind and then use hydro for to top up.
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
I did not read it that way. Rich was saying that the North was leading the
way on the "green" path
Yes - but also a more distributed system, with less reliance on coal
and oil and long transmission distances, and lower costs for climate
change commitments which have been verbally supported by successive
governments but with little action to reduce the cost of failure to
meet commitments.
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
They are both at best ancillary sources
Post by Tony
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also
do
not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes
they
are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
The hydrogen economy. Been talked about for many years. To date plants are
the only ones doing it in any numbers.
Question, How, where do you get the hydrogen from? Very abundant on earth
but bound to other atoms. Hydrogen also leaks easily, burns when all to
easily and gives one range anxiety.
Read it up Gordon, there are hydrogen vehicles today. Some believe that trucks,
aircraft and ships would be a good use for hydrogen fuel cells and if the
intent was to reduce polution then cars could follow.
Hydrogen vehicles are not widely available; solar power is. We cannot
keep waiting for a silver bullet to meet costs of non-compliance with
agreements we willingly entered into, and we have the opportunity now
to take advantage of our wind and sunshine - the articles show two
companies who ar helping New Zealand to meet wider goals, while also
meeting the needs of their shareholders. That is the way markets are
supposed to work - is there some other way you want things to happen?
Do you disagree with the companies? Do you think the government should
be invovled somehow?
I argue that the insistence by people like you on using solar and wind is in
fact your "silver bullet". Both technologies are in their infancy and both have
serious drawbacks.
To meet the demands of future energy they should have been working on this twenty years ago. We're going to need several new uninterruptible energy sources to meet the needs of an electric car using society. One suggestion with merit is a geothermal plant in Auckland. Mt. Albert would be a good site the mountain being a dormant volcanoe and not needing drilling to go very deep to reach the heat source needed...
Tony
2021-02-19 00:20:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:48:13 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been
perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Tony, wind power has no batteries, fed straight into the national grid. Cars
have the batteries.
Yes Gordon I knwo that, but the increased generation of electricity by either
of those means almost demands storage which at the moment is only batteries.
The balancing of supply and demand is very complex; but the simplest
use of excess supply is to build up water levels behind dams. That is
why the power stations are largely remotely controlled using meters
and electronics to open and close valves - Waikaremoana for example is
I have been told controlled from Tokaanu, enbling output to be
adjusted in real time across a large system (and the loss of jobs in
some hydro towns). In the North, it may be possible to use excess
supply to pump water to small dams and power irrigation for farmers;
or to enable hydroponics. The projections are however for an increase
in demand for electricity for a variety of uses. Clearly one company
sees sufficient demand to build a solar array. If they get it right
they will prosper, if they are wrong you can tell them they should
have asked you.
You rude prick.
Do some research, what you describe is not actually done yet, we do not pump
water back up into dams.
Is it a perpetual motion dream? How much energy will be used to do this?
Things fools like Rich never think about let alone comprehend.
Post by Tony
It is a massive project and so far as I know not approved at this time.
When it happens do come back here and make a contribution instead of making
stuff up.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
In (green) powered NZ you use solar and wind and then use hydro for to
top
up.
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them
in
any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
I did not read it that way. Rich was saying that the North was leading the
way on the "green" path
Yes - but also a more distributed system, with less reliance on coal
and oil and long transmission distances, and lower costs for climate
change commitments which have been verbally supported by successive
governments but with little action to reduce the cost of failure to
meet commitments.
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
They are both at best ancillary sources
Post by Tony
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and
that
is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly
innacurate
fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also
do
not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes
they
are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
The hydrogen economy. Been talked about for many years. To date plants are
the only ones doing it in any numbers.
Question, How, where do you get the hydrogen from? Very abundant on earth
but bound to other atoms. Hydrogen also leaks easily, burns when all to
easily and gives one range anxiety.
Read it up Gordon, there are hydrogen vehicles today. Some believe that trucks,
aircraft and ships would be a good use for hydrogen fuel cells and if the
intent was to reduce polution then cars could follow.
Hydrogen vehicles are not widely available; solar power is. We cannot
keep waiting for a silver bullet to meet costs of non-compliance with
agreements we willingly entered into, and we have the opportunity now
to take advantage of our wind and sunshine - the articles show two
companies who ar helping New Zealand to meet wider goals, while also
meeting the needs of their shareholders. That is the way markets are
supposed to work - is there some other way you want things to happen?
Do you disagree with the companies? Do you think the government should
be invovled somehow?
I argue that the insistence by people like you on using solar and wind is in
fact your "silver bullet". Both technologies are in their infancy and both have
serious drawbacks.
To meet the demands of future energy they should have been working on this
twenty years ago. We're going to need several new uninterruptible energy
sources to meet the needs of an electric car using society. One suggestion with
merit is a geothermal plant in Auckland. Mt. Albert would be a good site the
mountain being a dormant volcanoe and not needing drilling to go very deep to
reach the heat source needed...
Geothermal is an option and has very few emissions, however it is relatively
short lived but it may buy some areas a little time so that we can actually go
in an intelligent direction.
Rich80105
2021-02-18 23:53:01 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 17:04:43 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:48:13 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Tony, wind power has no batteries, fed straight into the national grid. Cars
have the batteries.
Yes Gordon I knwo that, but the increased generation of electricity by either
of those means almost demands storage which at the moment is only batteries.
The balancing of supply and demand is very complex; but the simplest
use of excess supply is to build up water levels behind dams. That is
why the power stations are largely remotely controlled using meters
and electronics to open and close valves - Waikaremoana for example is
I have been told controlled from Tokaanu, enbling output to be
adjusted in real time across a large system (and the loss of jobs in
some hydro towns). In the North, it may be possible to use excess
supply to pump water to small dams and power irrigation for farmers;
or to enable hydroponics. The projections are however for an increase
in demand for electricity for a variety of uses. Clearly one company
sees sufficient demand to build a solar array. If they get it right
they will prosper, if they are wrong you can tell them they should
have asked you.
You rude prick.
Do some research, what you describe is not actually done yet, we do not pump
water back up into dams.
It is a massive project and so far as I know not approved at this time.
When it happens do come back here and make a contribution instead of making
stuff up.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
In (green) powered NZ you use solar and wind and then use hydro for to top up.
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
I did not read it that way. Rich was saying that the North was leading the
way on the "green" path
Yes - but also a more distributed system, with less reliance on coal
and oil and long transmission distances, and lower costs for climate
change commitments which have been verbally supported by successive
governments but with little action to reduce the cost of failure to
meet commitments.
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
They are both at best ancillary sources
Post by Tony
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also
do
not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes
they
are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
The hydrogen economy. Been talked about for many years. To date plants are
the only ones doing it in any numbers.
Question, How, where do you get the hydrogen from? Very abundant on earth
but bound to other atoms. Hydrogen also leaks easily, burns when all to
easily and gives one range anxiety.
Read it up Gordon, there are hydrogen vehicles today. Some believe that trucks,
aircraft and ships would be a good use for hydrogen fuel cells and if the
intent was to reduce polution then cars could follow.
Hydrogen vehicles are not widely available; solar power is. We cannot
keep waiting for a silver bullet to meet costs of non-compliance with
agreements we willingly entered into, and we have the opportunity now
to take advantage of our wind and sunshine - the articles show two
companies who ar helping New Zealand to meet wider goals, while also
meeting the needs of their shareholders. That is the way markets are
supposed to work - is there some other way you want things to happen?
Do you disagree with the companies? Do you think the government should
be invovled somehow?
I argue that the insistence by people like you on using solar and wind is in
fact your "silver bullet". Both technologies are in their infancy and both have
serious drawbacks.
Only you have claimed that solar and wind are "silver bullets", Tony,
but we have had small scale pumping using windmills for a long time;
many farm irrigation systems use petrol motors to drive pumps, and yes
many farms around New Zealand have used the natural landscape to
divert small amounts from streams or used natural land formations to
form small ponds for water retention purposes. I can remember a farm I
visited many years ago where they grew fish as the pond was not
emptied in the peak of summer; it was fed by a culvert that followed
an original natural stream.
Tony
2021-02-19 00:18:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 17:04:43 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:48:13 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Tony, wind power has no batteries, fed straight into the national grid. Cars
have the batteries.
Yes Gordon I knwo that, but the increased generation of electricity by either
of those means almost demands storage which at the moment is only batteries.
The balancing of supply and demand is very complex; but the simplest
use of excess supply is to build up water levels behind dams. That is
why the power stations are largely remotely controlled using meters
and electronics to open and close valves - Waikaremoana for example is
I have been told controlled from Tokaanu, enbling output to be
adjusted in real time across a large system (and the loss of jobs in
some hydro towns). In the North, it may be possible to use excess
supply to pump water to small dams and power irrigation for farmers;
or to enable hydroponics. The projections are however for an increase
in demand for electricity for a variety of uses. Clearly one company
sees sufficient demand to build a solar array. If they get it right
they will prosper, if they are wrong you can tell them they should
have asked you.
You rude prick.
Do some research, what you describe is not actually done yet, we do not pump
water back up into dams.
It is a massive project and so far as I know not approved at this time.
When it happens do come back here and make a contribution instead of making
stuff up.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
In (green) powered NZ you use solar and wind and then use hydro for to top up.
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
I did not read it that way. Rich was saying that the North was leading the
way on the "green" path
Yes - but also a more distributed system, with less reliance on coal
and oil and long transmission distances, and lower costs for climate
change commitments which have been verbally supported by successive
governments but with little action to reduce the cost of failure to
meet commitments.
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
They are both at best ancillary sources
Post by Tony
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and
that
is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly
innacurate
fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also
do
not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes
they
are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
The hydrogen economy. Been talked about for many years. To date plants are
the only ones doing it in any numbers.
Question, How, where do you get the hydrogen from? Very abundant on earth
but bound to other atoms. Hydrogen also leaks easily, burns when all to
easily and gives one range anxiety.
Read it up Gordon, there are hydrogen vehicles today. Some believe that trucks,
aircraft and ships would be a good use for hydrogen fuel cells and if the
intent was to reduce polution then cars could follow.
Hydrogen vehicles are not widely available; solar power is. We cannot
keep waiting for a silver bullet to meet costs of non-compliance with
agreements we willingly entered into, and we have the opportunity now
to take advantage of our wind and sunshine - the articles show two
companies who ar helping New Zealand to meet wider goals, while also
meeting the needs of their shareholders. That is the way markets are
supposed to work - is there some other way you want things to happen?
Do you disagree with the companies? Do you think the government should
be invovled somehow?
I argue that the insistence by people like you on using solar and wind is in
fact your "silver bullet". Both technologies are in their infancy and both have
serious drawbacks.
Only you have claimed that solar and wind are "silver bullets", Tony,
I claimed nothing of the sort, I was merely pointing out what you and your ilk
seem to believe.
Post by Rich80105
but we have had small scale pumping using windmills for a long time;
many farm irrigation systems use petrol motors to drive pumps, and yes
many farms around New Zealand have used the natural landscape to
divert small amounts from streams or used natural land formations to
form small ponds for water retention purposes. I can remember a farm I
visited many years ago where they grew fish as the pond was not
emptied in the peak of summer; it was fed by a culvert that followed
an original natural stream.
All irrelevant. Small windmills and wind generators are not even similar in
scale or construction. And batteries are still a serious issue.
Rich80105
2021-02-19 04:20:23 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 18:18:21 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 17:04:43 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:48:13 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Tony, wind power has no batteries, fed straight into the national grid. Cars
have the batteries.
Yes Gordon I knwo that, but the increased generation of electricity by either
of those means almost demands storage which at the moment is only batteries.
The balancing of supply and demand is very complex; but the simplest
use of excess supply is to build up water levels behind dams. That is
why the power stations are largely remotely controlled using meters
and electronics to open and close valves - Waikaremoana for example is
I have been told controlled from Tokaanu, enbling output to be
adjusted in real time across a large system (and the loss of jobs in
some hydro towns). In the North, it may be possible to use excess
supply to pump water to small dams and power irrigation for farmers;
or to enable hydroponics. The projections are however for an increase
in demand for electricity for a variety of uses. Clearly one company
sees sufficient demand to build a solar array. If they get it right
they will prosper, if they are wrong you can tell them they should
have asked you.
You rude prick.
Do some research, what you describe is not actually done yet, we do not pump
water back up into dams.
It is a massive project and so far as I know not approved at this time.
When it happens do come back here and make a contribution instead of making
stuff up.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
In (green) powered NZ you use solar and wind and then use hydro for to top up.
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
I did not read it that way. Rich was saying that the North was leading the
way on the "green" path
Yes - but also a more distributed system, with less reliance on coal
and oil and long transmission distances, and lower costs for climate
change commitments which have been verbally supported by successive
governments but with little action to reduce the cost of failure to
meet commitments.
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
They are both at best ancillary sources
Post by Tony
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and
that
is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly
innacurate
fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also
do
not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes
they
are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
The hydrogen economy. Been talked about for many years. To date plants are
the only ones doing it in any numbers.
Question, How, where do you get the hydrogen from? Very abundant on earth
but bound to other atoms. Hydrogen also leaks easily, burns when all to
easily and gives one range anxiety.
Read it up Gordon, there are hydrogen vehicles today. Some believe that trucks,
aircraft and ships would be a good use for hydrogen fuel cells and if the
intent was to reduce polution then cars could follow.
Hydrogen vehicles are not widely available; solar power is. We cannot
keep waiting for a silver bullet to meet costs of non-compliance with
agreements we willingly entered into, and we have the opportunity now
to take advantage of our wind and sunshine - the articles show two
companies who ar helping New Zealand to meet wider goals, while also
meeting the needs of their shareholders. That is the way markets are
supposed to work - is there some other way you want things to happen?
Do you disagree with the companies? Do you think the government should
be invovled somehow?
I argue that the insistence by people like you on using solar and wind is in
fact your "silver bullet". Both technologies are in their infancy and both have
serious drawbacks.
Only you have claimed that solar and wind are "silver bullets", Tony,
I claimed nothing of the sort, I was merely pointing out what you and your ilk
seem to believe.
I apologise, you were misrepresenting other posters, both with
claiming an insistence on using solar and wind, as well as your
claiming that these were "your "silver bullet" "

I have of course indicated that we will continue to have hydro as our
main generation for many years, and no-one else as used the words
"silver bullet." You are entitled to at least say 10% of the outrage
others are entitled to have from your continued mi-representation.
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
but we have had small scale pumping using windmills for a long time;
many farm irrigation systems use petrol motors to drive pumps, and yes
many farms around New Zealand have used the natural landscape to
divert small amounts from streams or used natural land formations to
form small ponds for water retention purposes. I can remember a farm I
visited many years ago where they grew fish as the pond was not
emptied in the peak of summer; it was fed by a culvert that followed
an original natural stream.
All irrelevant. Small windmills and wind generators are not even similar in
scale or construction. And batteries are still a serious issue.
You are irrelevant Tony as you try to dictate (and misrepresent) other
posters, and dictate what you consider to be the limits of discussion.
Tony
2021-02-19 04:30:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 18:18:21 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 17:04:43 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:48:13 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing
excess
power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Tony, wind power has no batteries, fed straight into the national grid. Cars
have the batteries.
Yes Gordon I knwo that, but the increased generation of electricity by either
of those means almost demands storage which at the moment is only batteries.
The balancing of supply and demand is very complex; but the simplest
use of excess supply is to build up water levels behind dams. That is
why the power stations are largely remotely controlled using meters
and electronics to open and close valves - Waikaremoana for example is
I have been told controlled from Tokaanu, enbling output to be
adjusted in real time across a large system (and the loss of jobs in
some hydro towns). In the North, it may be possible to use excess
supply to pump water to small dams and power irrigation for farmers;
or to enable hydroponics. The projections are however for an increase
in demand for electricity for a variety of uses. Clearly one company
sees sufficient demand to build a solar array. If they get it right
they will prosper, if they are wrong you can tell them they should
have asked you.
You rude prick.
Do some research, what you describe is not actually done yet, we do not pump
water back up into dams.
It is a massive project and so far as I know not approved at this time.
When it happens do come back here and make a contribution instead of making
stuff up.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
In (green) powered NZ you use solar and wind and then use hydro for to
top
up.
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them
in
any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
I did not read it that way. Rich was saying that the North was leading the
way on the "green" path
Yes - but also a more distributed system, with less reliance on coal
and oil and long transmission distances, and lower costs for climate
change commitments which have been verbally supported by successive
governments but with little action to reduce the cost of failure to
meet commitments.
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
They are both at best ancillary sources
Post by Tony
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and
that
is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly
innacurate
fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also
do
not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes
they
are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
The hydrogen economy. Been talked about for many years. To date plants are
the only ones doing it in any numbers.
Question, How, where do you get the hydrogen from? Very abundant on earth
but bound to other atoms. Hydrogen also leaks easily, burns when all to
easily and gives one range anxiety.
Read it up Gordon, there are hydrogen vehicles today. Some believe that trucks,
aircraft and ships would be a good use for hydrogen fuel cells and if the
intent was to reduce polution then cars could follow.
Hydrogen vehicles are not widely available; solar power is. We cannot
keep waiting for a silver bullet to meet costs of non-compliance with
agreements we willingly entered into, and we have the opportunity now
to take advantage of our wind and sunshine - the articles show two
companies who ar helping New Zealand to meet wider goals, while also
meeting the needs of their shareholders. That is the way markets are
supposed to work - is there some other way you want things to happen?
Do you disagree with the companies? Do you think the government should
be invovled somehow?
I argue that the insistence by people like you on using solar and wind is in
fact your "silver bullet". Both technologies are in their infancy and both have
serious drawbacks.
Only you have claimed that solar and wind are "silver bullets", Tony,
I claimed nothing of the sort, I was merely pointing out what you and your ilk
seem to believe.
I apologise, you were misrepresenting other posters, both with
claiming an insistence on using solar and wind, as well as your
claiming that these were "your "silver bullet" "
Not at all. Your apology is accepted. You have made it clear that you are the
one that misrepresents what others write, that you defame people and that you
make stuff up. So apology accepted.
Post by Rich80105
I have of course indicated that we will continue to have hydro as our
main generation for many years, and no-one else as used the words
"silver bullet." You are entitled to at least say 10% of the outrage
others are entitled to have from your continued mi-representation.
No need to apologise further, your abject apology is clear and permanantely
saved in the minds of those of us that abhor silly and excessive sarcasm.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
but we have had small scale pumping using windmills for a long time;
many farm irrigation systems use petrol motors to drive pumps, and yes
many farms around New Zealand have used the natural landscape to
divert small amounts from streams or used natural land formations to
form small ponds for water retention purposes. I can remember a farm I
visited many years ago where they grew fish as the pond was not
emptied in the peak of summer; it was fed by a culvert that followed
an original natural stream.
All irrelevant. Small windmills and wind generators are not even similar in
scale or construction. And batteries are still a serious issue.
You are irrelevant Tony as you try to dictate (and misrepresent) other
posters, and dictate what you consider to be the limits of discussion.
My irrelevance is only exceeded by your lies and deliberate refusal to accept
the facts that have been offered to you. So run away little man and hide in
yourt cesspit of political delusions.
John Bowes
2021-02-18 23:28:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 13:48:13 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Tony, wind power has no batteries, fed straight into the national grid. Cars
have the batteries.
Yes Gordon I knwo that, but the increased generation of electricity by either
of those means almost demands storage which at the moment is only batteries.
The balancing of supply and demand is very complex; but the simplest
use of excess supply is to build up water levels behind dams. That is
why the power stations are largely remotely controlled using meters
and electronics to open and close valves - Waikaremoana for example is
I have been told controlled from Tokaanu, enbling output to be
adjusted in real time across a large system (and the loss of jobs in
some hydro towns). In the North, it may be possible to use excess
supply to pump water to small dams and power irrigation for farmers;
or to enable hydroponics. The projections are however for an increase
in demand for electricity for a variety of uses. Clearly one company
sees sufficient demand to build a solar array. If they get it right
they will prosper, if they are wrong you can tell them they should
have asked you.
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
In (green) powered NZ you use solar and wind and then use hydro for to top up.
Post by Tony
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong.
I did not read it that way. Rich was saying that the North was leading the
way on the "green" path
Yes - but also a more distributed system, with less reliance on coal
and oil and long transmission distances, and lower costs for climate
change commitments which have been verbally supported by successive
governments but with little action to reduce the cost of failure to
meet commitments.
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
They are both at best ancillary sources
Post by Tony
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
The hydrogen economy. Been talked about for many years. To date plants are
the only ones doing it in any numbers.
Question, How, where do you get the hydrogen from? Very abundant on earth
but bound to other atoms. Hydrogen also leaks easily, burns when all to
easily and gives one range anxiety.
Read it up Gordon, there are hydrogen vehicles today. Some believe that trucks,
aircraft and ships would be a good use for hydrogen fuel cells and if the
intent was to reduce polution then cars could follow.
Hydrogen vehicles are not widely available; solar power is.
If so why are they planning on building more?
Post by Rich80105
We cannot
keep waiting for a silver bullet to meet costs of non-compliance with
agreements we willingly entered into, and we have the opportunity now
to take advantage of our wind and sunshine
Who's this 'we' you talk about Rich? When were we consulted? Where was the debate? Have you been overdoing the ganja again? >- the articles show two
Post by Rich80105
companies who ar helping New Zealand to meet wider goals, while also
meeting the needs of their shareholders. That is the way markets are
supposed to work - is there some other way you want things to happen?
Do you disagree with the companies? Do you think the government should
be invovled somehow?
What about the workers who'll lose their jobs because of Arderns rush to show what a good little Marxist to the UN? The government should remember it's supposed to be the servant of the people NOT responsible to a coterie of fucking imbeciles like you and the Greens Rich!
Firu
2021-02-19 13:03:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Tony, wind power has no batteries, fed straight into the national grid. Cars
have the batteries.
In (green) powered NZ you use solar and wind and then use hydro for to top up.
Real problem is you can't turn the sun or the wind on and off. So you
will need to store excess power to use when the sun and the wind stop
playing. Pumped hydro is just a big battery, helps when there's just not
enough ordinary hydro.
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
The hydrogen economy. Been talked about for many years. To date plants are
the only ones doing it in any numbers.
Question, How, where do you get the hydrogen from? Very abundant on earth
but bound to other atoms. Hydrogen also leaks easily, burns when all to
easily and gives one range anxiety.
Water, that's the easiest. And if you use solar and wind to get your
hydrogen it's pretty clean too. Using hydrogen for cars has no more
range anxiety than a tank of petrol.

The big but, we need the infrastructure. The cost of creating a
cryogenic hydrogen distribution system will be very pricey.
Firu
2021-02-19 12:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong. They are both at best ancillary sources
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
I agree that wind/solar are not the universal answer to power
generation. Pumped hydro storage might help even out supplies but you
need some hills and a lot of water. We have these in NZ, just not close
enough to major population centres. Mega batteries are at best a short
term solution given the way batteries degrade with each recharge cycle.

I hope I see commercial fusion plants in my lifetime. For most of my
life they've always been 10 years away. Sadly I doubt if I have enough
'10 years' left!

But I quite like these ideas for hydrogen generation.

https://www.rechargenews.com/transition/worlds-largest-floating-wind-farm-to-power-landmark-green-hydrogen-project/2-1-883061

https://maritime-executive.com/article/shell-plans-floating-solar-hydrogen-generation-at-new-wind-farm

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/floating-solar-fuel-rigs-could-produce-hydrogen-fuel
Tony
2021-02-19 20:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong. They are both at best ancillary sources
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
I agree that wind/solar are not the universal answer to power
generation. Pumped hydro storage might help even out supplies but you
need some hills and a lot of water. We have these in NZ, just not close
enough to major population centres. Mega batteries are at best a short
term solution given the way batteries degrade with each recharge cycle.
I hope I see commercial fusion plants in my lifetime. For most of my
life they've always been 10 years away. Sadly I doubt if I have enough
'10 years' left!
At least there is one being built in France, but it is a 35 year project and
will be used to design the real thing in due course.
My concern is that we are panicking and going down a path that we barely
understand while the question of how much climate change is natural and how
much is man made is yet to be answered.
Post by Firu
But I quite like these ideas for hydrogen generation.
https://www.rechargenews.com/transition/worlds-largest-floating-wind-farm-to-power-landmark-green-hydrogen-project/2-1-883061
https://maritime-executive.com/article/shell-plans-floating-solar-hydrogen-generation-at-new-wind-farm
https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/floating-solar-fuel-rigs-could-produce-hydrogen-fuel
The advantage of hydrogen fuel cells is that the science is well established
and has been so for decades. It can be made safe (at least as safe as petrol
driven vehicles) and answers the need to reduce emissions to zero with no nasty
waste products to handle (unlike batteries and solar arrays).
James Christophers
2021-02-19 23:41:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Firu
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
As you have been told many times, wind and solar energy cannot replace our
current power generation.
They are too weather dependant and have no viable way of storing excess power.
The use of hydro dams has been suggested but as yet has not been perfected.
Wind and solar both have problems with disposal of batteries and solar panels.
Both are fairly reasonable options but to suggest that either of them in any
way secure our future is plain wrong. They are both at best ancillary sources
of power with problems yet to be resolved.
There is only one known, but yet to be achieved, real opportunity and that is
atomic fusion reactors. But they carry an undeserved and highly innacurate fear
of atomic reactors (fusion reactors are not fission reactors). They also do not
fix the battery disposal problem.
Meanwhile hydrogen powered cars could be the answer. Mr. Musk believes they are
stupid but he is known for criticising anything he is not involved in.
I agree that wind/solar are not the universal answer to power
generation. Pumped hydro storage might help even out supplies but you
need some hills and a lot of water. We have these in NZ, just not close
enough to major population centres. Mega batteries are at best a short
term solution given the way batteries degrade with each recharge cycle.
I hope I see commercial fusion plants in my lifetime. For most of my
life they've always been 10 years away. Sadly I doubt if I have enough
'10 years' left!
At least there is one being built in France, but it is a 35 year project and
will be used to design the real thing in due course.
My concern is that we are panicking and going down a path that we barely
understand while the question of how much climate change is natural and how
much is man made is yet to be answered.
Post by Firu
But I quite like these ideas for hydrogen generation.
https://www.rechargenews.com/transition/worlds-largest-floating-wind-farm-to-power-landmark-green-hydrogen-project/2-1-883061
https://maritime-executive.com/article/shell-plans-floating-solar-hydrogen-generation-at-new-wind-farm
https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/floating-solar-fuel-rigs-could-produce-hydrogen-fuel
The advantage of hydrogen fuel cells is that the science is well established
and has been so for decades. It can be made safe (at least as safe as petrol
driven vehicles) and answers the need to reduce emissions to zero with no nasty
waste products to handle (unlike batteries and solar arrays).
This thread fiddles around the issue.

All the concerns and suggestions above are about the per-kwh energy efficiencies and the potential/actual benefits/impacts on the planet and its peoples of each methodology in the urgent search for the ideal ratio; this to compensate for what has gone before and to allay or snuff out even more increasingly intractable problems down the track. Good try, and so far so good.

Think of it as the end-to-end per kwh of energy expended/conserved. First begin with the end point, the costs/benefits of global environmental/human-need/greed impact, and then work backwards to the “beginning”, i.e. the costs/benefits of the finding, identifying and acquiring of the original source of energy. You may be surprised how it works out.

Consider, now, some of the topic-relevant implications of the present-day conundrum:

Ultimately, it’s about today’s all-embracing existential issue of total global all-species-bar-one survival versus just one small percentage of that one “bar-one” species, Man. “Having dominion over all the earth” is now unthinkingly - cynically, even - taken as an invitation to an open-slather incontinent greed and compulsion to extract, acquire and exploit ever more of as much of the world’s finite natural resources as he can get his hands on; and worse, to increase this extraction to way beyond more than he can ever possibly need.

When finite resources meet compulsive, incontinent greed, the selfish fractional minority with the power and, ergo, the influence will increasingly win out - the quasi-exponential effect. Those not so “blessed” will - must - lose out, and ever more disproportionately and in increasing numbers. They are, simply, dispossessed through exploitation.

It is no longer about the Natural Order, i.e. the universally paraphrased “survival of the fittest”. It is about the stratospheric trickery and thievery of the greediest and the most corrupt; i.e. Man the only species to systematically defile and despoil his and his fellow species’ own environment; that one unique species whose ineffable conscience, intellect and learning supposingly raise him above the beasts of the field.

Think on.

So what you’re really up against is the exploiter’s Faustian pact with the material and the heedless both of which are steadily subverting the spiritual and the humanistic (TV1 prime-time, anyone?) In time, you **will** get what you’re already starting to see -the eventual collapse and destruction of the global “Social Contract” (Hobbes and Locke).

You are then, irrevocably, beyond all hope of salvation.
Crash
2021-02-18 07:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
How is that Rich?

The solar array in the first article is indeed interesting but enough
power to supply "2750 homes" is a tiny proportion of our electricity
needs. No mention of the economic benefits is made.

The second article covers the conversion of the Marsden Point refinery
to a refined-product port terminal. This being caused by the fact
that the existing plant cannot compete with the landed cost of fuels
refined overseas, particularly in a projected decline in petrol and
diesel consumption. Job losses will ensue, though some parts of the
current refining plant may be re-purposed.

Neither are major developments of any significance.


--
Crash McBash
John Bowes
2021-02-18 11:00:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
The North is showing the way!
Only in your dreams Rich :)
John Bowes
2021-02-19 21:16:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
Will power 2750 homes. WOW! But how many EV's will it power Rich?
Post by Rich80105
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
Will destroy hundreds of business and thousands of jobs!
Post by Rich80105
The North is showing the way!
Showing the way to what? Higher unemployment and poverty? Hasn't it got enough of that already Rich?
Rich80105
2021-02-19 21:44:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 13:16:59 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
Will power 2750 homes. WOW! But how many EV's will it power Rich?
Post by Rich80105
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
Will destroy hundreds of business and thousands of jobs!
Really? Naah; maybe a few, but their going will mean the government
can stop the subsidies - do you want the government to keep paying to
retain the jobs, Johnboyes?
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
The North is showing the way!
Showing the way to what? Higher unemployment and poverty? Hasn't it got enough of that already Rich?
Anticipating the future, recognising the expected lower demand for
refined petroleum, and seeking better profit for shareholders. What
did you want them to do, johnboy?
John Bowes
2021-02-20 02:29:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 13:16:59 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
Will power 2750 homes. WOW! But how many EV's will it power Rich?
What no pathetic answer here. Is the reality finally penetrating the solid lump of bone that keeps your ears apart?
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
Will destroy hundreds of business and thousands of jobs!
Really? Naah; maybe a few, but their going will mean the government
can stop the subsidies - do you want the government to keep paying to
retain the jobs, Johnboyes?
YES Realy Rich! Try doing some research for once in your useless life!
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
The North is showing the way!
Showing the way to what? Higher unemployment and poverty? Hasn't it got enough of that already Rich?
Anticipating the future, recognising the expected lower demand for
refined petroleum, and seeking better profit for shareholders. What
did you want them to do, johnboy?
Get ready for the demand of natural gas another petroleum products that will still be needed for EV cars and maybe actualy look at what they're setting New Zealand up for when the climate Change fraud finally collapses!
Rich80105
2021-02-20 07:57:03 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:29:44 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 13:16:59 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
Will power 2750 homes. WOW! But how many EV's will it power Rich?
You work it out - it will produce 16MW - presumably on a sunny day,
but powering 2750 homes is quite a lot of electricity that will not
need to be gnenerated elsewhere.
Post by John Bowes
What no pathetic answer here. Is the reality finally penetrating the solid lump of bone that keeps your ears apart?
Better than no answer from you . . .
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
Will destroy hundreds of business and thousands of jobs!
Really? Naah; maybe a few, but their going will mean the government
can stop the subsidies - do you want the government to keep paying to
retain the jobs, Johnboyes?
YES Realy Rich! Try doing some research for once in your useless life!
I always knew you were a closet socialist - except you are a National
Socialist - socialise losses and capitalise profits . . .
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
The North is showing the way!
Showing the way to what? Higher unemployment and poverty? Hasn't it got enough of that already Rich?
Anticipating the future, recognising the expected lower demand for
refined petroleum, and seeking better profit for shareholders. What
did you want them to do, johnboy?
Get ready for the demand of natural gas another petroleum products that will still be needed for EV cars and maybe actualy look at what they're setting New Zealand up for when the climate Change fraud finally collapses!
Natural gas is not unlimited at present - the sooner we prepare for
using other sources the better. Gas used ot be preferable for home
kitchens, those that have tried both tend to prefer induction tops.
Tony
2021-02-20 19:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:29:44 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 13:16:59 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
Will power 2750 homes. WOW! But how many EV's will it power Rich?
You work it out - it will produce 16MW - presumably on a sunny day,
but powering 2750 homes is quite a lot of electricity that will not
need to be gnenerated elsewhere.
Post by John Bowes
What no pathetic answer here. Is the reality finally penetrating the solid
lump of bone that keeps your ears apart?
Better than no answer from you . . .
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
Will destroy hundreds of business and thousands of jobs!
Really? Naah; maybe a few, but their going will mean the government
can stop the subsidies - do you want the government to keep paying to
retain the jobs, Johnboyes?
YES Realy Rich! Try doing some research for once in your useless life!
I always knew you were a closet socialist - except you are a National
Socialist - socialise losses and capitalise profits . . .
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
The North is showing the way!
Showing the way to what? Higher unemployment and poverty? Hasn't it got
enough of that already Rich?
Anticipating the future, recognising the expected lower demand for
refined petroleum, and seeking better profit for shareholders. What
did you want them to do, johnboy?
Get ready for the demand of natural gas another petroleum products that will
still be needed for EV cars and maybe actualy look at what they're setting New
Zealand up for when the climate Change fraud finally collapses!
Natural gas is not unlimited at present - the sooner we prepare for
using other sources the better. Gas used ot be preferable for home
kitchens, those that have tried both tend to prefer induction tops.
Don't tell a chef that, Chefs almost universally prefer gas hobs (and electric
fan forced ovens).
Rich80105
2021-02-20 19:52:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 13:08:00 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:29:44 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 13:16:59 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
Will power 2750 homes. WOW! But how many EV's will it power Rich?
You work it out - it will produce 16MW - presumably on a sunny day,
but powering 2750 homes is quite a lot of electricity that will not
need to be gnenerated elsewhere.
Post by John Bowes
What no pathetic answer here. Is the reality finally penetrating the solid
lump of bone that keeps your ears apart?
Better than no answer from you . . .
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
Will destroy hundreds of business and thousands of jobs!
Really? Naah; maybe a few, but their going will mean the government
can stop the subsidies - do you want the government to keep paying to
retain the jobs, Johnboyes?
YES Realy Rich! Try doing some research for once in your useless life!
I always knew you were a closet socialist - except you are a National
Socialist - socialise losses and capitalise profits . . .
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
The North is showing the way!
Showing the way to what? Higher unemployment and poverty? Hasn't it got
enough of that already Rich?
Anticipating the future, recognising the expected lower demand for
refined petroleum, and seeking better profit for shareholders. What
did you want them to do, johnboy?
Get ready for the demand of natural gas another petroleum products that will
still be needed for EV cars and maybe actualy look at what they're setting New
Zealand up for when the climate Change fraud finally collapses!
Natural gas is not unlimited at present - the sooner we prepare for
using other sources the better. Gas used to be preferable for home
kitchens, those that have tried both tend to prefer induction tops.
Don't tell a chef that, Chefs almost universally prefer gas hobs (and electric
fan forced ovens).
You are correct; and there are some other specialist applications
where gas is appropriate. As supply falls, costs for natural gas are
likely to increase anyway, but some will be prepared to pay additional
costs for gas whether natural or manufactured. I use gas for cooking
and home heating; at some stage it will become more efficient to
replace the efficient double-burning boiler with an electric
appliance.
John Bowes
2021-02-20 22:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 13:08:00 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:29:44 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 13:16:59 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
Will power 2750 homes. WOW! But how many EV's will it power Rich?
You work it out - it will produce 16MW - presumably on a sunny day,
but powering 2750 homes is quite a lot of electricity that will not
need to be gnenerated elsewhere.
Post by John Bowes
What no pathetic answer here. Is the reality finally penetrating the solid
lump of bone that keeps your ears apart?
Better than no answer from you . . .
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
Will destroy hundreds of business and thousands of jobs!
Really? Naah; maybe a few, but their going will mean the government
can stop the subsidies - do you want the government to keep paying to
retain the jobs, Johnboyes?
YES Realy Rich! Try doing some research for once in your useless life!
I always knew you were a closet socialist - except you are a National
Socialist - socialise losses and capitalise profits . . .
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
The North is showing the way!
Showing the way to what? Higher unemployment and poverty? Hasn't it got
enough of that already Rich?
Anticipating the future, recognising the expected lower demand for
refined petroleum, and seeking better profit for shareholders. What
did you want them to do, johnboy?
Get ready for the demand of natural gas another petroleum products that will
still be needed for EV cars and maybe actualy look at what they're setting New
Zealand up for when the climate Change fraud finally collapses!
Natural gas is not unlimited at present - the sooner we prepare for
using other sources the better. Gas used to be preferable for home
kitchens, those that have tried both tend to prefer induction tops.
Don't tell a chef that, Chefs almost universally prefer gas hobs (and electric
fan forced ovens).
You are correct; and there are some other specialist applications
where gas is appropriate. As supply falls, costs for natural gas are
likely to increase anyway, but some will be prepared to pay additional
costs for gas whether natural or manufactured. I use gas for cooking
and home heating; at some stage it will become more efficient to
replace the efficient double-burning boiler with an electric
appliance.
So your just another hypocritical climate change fanatic! There are a lot of uses we have now that will disappear if the government continues it's drive to look good while destroying New Zealand because of UN and Marxist stupidity!
John Bowes
2021-02-20 22:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:29:44 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 13:16:59 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
Will power 2750 homes. WOW! But how many EV's will it power Rich?
You work it out - it will produce 16MW - presumably on a sunny day,
but powering 2750 homes is quite a lot of electricity that will not
need to be gnenerated elsewhere.
Post by John Bowes
What no pathetic answer here. Is the reality finally penetrating the solid
lump of bone that keeps your ears apart?
Better than no answer from you . . .
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
Will destroy hundreds of business and thousands of jobs!
Really? Naah; maybe a few, but their going will mean the government
can stop the subsidies - do you want the government to keep paying to
retain the jobs, Johnboyes?
YES Realy Rich! Try doing some research for once in your useless life!
I always knew you were a closet socialist - except you are a National
Socialist - socialise losses and capitalise profits . . .
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
The North is showing the way!
Showing the way to what? Higher unemployment and poverty? Hasn't it got
enough of that already Rich?
Anticipating the future, recognising the expected lower demand for
refined petroleum, and seeking better profit for shareholders. What
did you want them to do, johnboy?
Get ready for the demand of natural gas another petroleum products that will
still be needed for EV cars and maybe actualy look at what they're setting New
Zealand up for when the climate Change fraud finally collapses!
Natural gas is not unlimited at present - the sooner we prepare for
using other sources the better. Gas used ot be preferable for home
kitchens, those that have tried both tend to prefer induction tops.
Don't tell a chef that, Chefs almost universally prefer gas hobs (and electric
fan forced ovens).
Ask an Indian the best thing for making chapatis :) They'll tell you charcoal or gas. Guess Rich will be more than happy for people to use more charcoal.....
James Christophers
2021-02-21 00:45:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:29:44 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 13:16:59 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
Will power 2750 homes. WOW! But how many EV's will it power Rich?
You work it out - it will produce 16MW - presumably on a sunny day,
but powering 2750 homes is quite a lot of electricity that will not
need to be gnenerated elsewhere.
Post by John Bowes
What no pathetic answer here. Is the reality finally penetrating the solid
lump of bone that keeps your ears apart?
Better than no answer from you . . .
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
Will destroy hundreds of business and thousands of jobs!
Really? Naah; maybe a few, but their going will mean the government
can stop the subsidies - do you want the government to keep paying to
retain the jobs, Johnboyes?
YES Realy Rich! Try doing some research for once in your useless life!
I always knew you were a closet socialist - except you are a National
Socialist - socialise losses and capitalise profits . . .
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
The North is showing the way!
Showing the way to what? Higher unemployment and poverty? Hasn't it got
enough of that already Rich?
Anticipating the future, recognising the expected lower demand for
refined petroleum, and seeking better profit for shareholders. What
did you want them to do, johnboy?
Get ready for the demand of natural gas another petroleum products that will
still be needed for EV cars and maybe actualy look at what they're setting New
Zealand up for when the climate Change fraud finally collapses!
Natural gas is not unlimited at present - the sooner we prepare for
using other sources the better. Gas used ot be preferable for home
kitchens, those that have tried both tend to prefer induction tops.
Don't tell a chef that, Chefs almost universally prefer gas hobs (and electric
fan forced ovens).
Ask an Indian the best thing for making chapatis :) They'll tell you charcoal or gas. Guess Rich will be more than happy for people to use more charcoal.....
At point of use, electricity is 100% toxin-free and non-polluting. Not so gas or charcoal.

In which case, if every New Zealander is to be honest about their aspirations to a highest quality, low-toxicity environment, and the contribution this makes to everyone’s welfare, they will willingly accept a hefty charge on all forms of domestic energy usage other than electricity. 50%-plus sounds about right to me. Draconian disincentive is the key.

As for gas-squandering professional chefs and their epicurean clientèle: if these worthy people are to be equally honest in their claims to support the same common-good aspirations, they will accept the changes that must be made to their pleasurable indulgences and the toxic means of satisfying them – this, again, entirely for their own good and everyone else’s. Any chef worth his salt and with an ounce of nous and inspiration will adapt within moments and still meet the expectations of his customers who, likewise, will have adapted their gourmet palates for their own and the common good.

The Indian in his motherland may well use gas and charcoal. He will almost certainly have no alternatives, particularly in the poorer and more remote areas of his country where life tends more towards a lowly, meagrely waged subsistence than to destructive western man’s indulgent habits and hedonistic excesses.

On the driveway three doors along from me stands a (reputably) environmentally-friendly Tesla 3. Its owners are naturally tickled pink at being the first in this gracious hideaway cul-de-sac to go climate-conscious when schlepping their considerable lard about on four wheels. This summer, as usual, barbecues on their deck are held from time to time – as one does – and high-pollution charcoal brings the crispy, carcinogenic T-bones and fatburgers - plus equally carcinogenic condoms stuffed with laboratory-flavoured ground-gristle, otherwise known hereabouts as “sausages", to the very apogee of all known toxicity.

A little later, as the discreet easing of swollen bellies and stifled farting takes over, twilght descends and a southerly chill moves in. At which moment two overhead gas heaters are brought into play to keep everyone warm. Well, what environmentally concerned Tesla 3 owner wouldn’t be so rightfully attentive to his guests’ every need, eh?

And you can’t make this stuff up...

(Disclaimer: this house is 100% electric – plus one woodburner used only as a "kickstarter" to get up to the required background temperature, when the (mostly) hydro-powered heatpumps take over and the burner once again retires itself from its brief duty.)
John Bowes
2021-02-20 22:34:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:29:44 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 13:16:59 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
Will power 2750 homes. WOW! But how many EV's will it power Rich?
You work it out - it will produce 16MW - presumably on a sunny day,
but powering 2750 homes is quite a lot of electricity that will not
need to be gnenerated elsewhere.
1. It's only available on sunny days and
2.It's an insignificant amount of energy in the country's current and future needs.
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
What no pathetic answer here. Is the reality finally penetrating the solid lump of bone that keeps your ears apart?
Better than no answer from you . . .
I just follow your example on that Rich! try practicing what you preach for once in your sorry life!
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
Will destroy hundreds of business and thousands of jobs!
Really? Naah; maybe a few, but their going will mean the government
can stop the subsidies - do you want the government to keep paying to
retain the jobs, Johnboyes?
YES Realy Rich! Try doing some research for once in your useless life!
I always knew you were a closet socialist - except you are a National
Socialist - socialise losses and capitalise profits . . .
BULLSHIT! You praise Labour to the sky. Find somewhere I've given National better than çaould do better'! I'm a realist Rich not a virtue signalling Marxist imbecile like you!
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
The North is showing the way!
Showing the way to what? Higher unemployment and poverty? Hasn't it got enough of that already Rich?
Anticipating the future, recognising the expected lower demand for
refined petroleum, and seeking better profit for shareholders. What
did you want them to do, johnboy?
Get ready for the demand of natural gas another petroleum products that will still be needed for EV cars and maybe actualy look at what they're setting New Zealand up for when the climate Change fraud finally collapses!
Natural gas is not unlimited at present - the sooner we prepare for
using other sources the better. Gas used ot be preferable for home
kitchens, those that have tried both tend to prefer induction tops.
Tell that to restaurants and take aways Rich. Do you know where to find an electric bar bq? The humble bar bq is part of most peoples disaster survival kit. How would electricity work? Hunters and trampers rely on gas. Are they supposed to go back to wood fires?
Yes natural gas is limited at present but only because Ardern took orders from Greenpiece and killed the industry by stopping exploration! Hell New Zealand was set to make $billions from it that could have been used to pay for our miniscule carbon foot print!
Rich80105
2021-02-21 01:03:59 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 14:34:32 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:29:44 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 13:16:59 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
Will power 2750 homes. WOW! But how many EV's will it power Rich?
You work it out - it will produce 16MW - presumably on a sunny day,
but powering 2750 homes is quite a lot of electricity that will not
need to be gnenerated elsewhere.
1. It's only available on sunny days and
2.It's an insignificant amount of energy in the country's current and future needs.
Not your decision or mine, John - the Company clearly believes they
can make a good profit by providing a needed service. If they succeed
others may learn from them and follow, if they don't then we will know
more about the desirability of attempting to use solar power in one of
the sunniest parts of New Zealand. You seem to be demonstrating a very
jaundiced view of a market economy - you appear to prefer that
decisions on meeting power needs be made from the centre, and profits
directed in the leaders interests - how very National Party . . .
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
What no pathetic answer here. Is the reality finally penetrating the solid lump of bone that keeps your ears apart?
Better than no answer from you . . .
I just follow your example on that Rich! try practicing what you preach for once in your sorry life!
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
Will destroy hundreds of business and thousands of jobs!
Really? Naah; maybe a few, but their going will mean the government
can stop the subsidies - do you want the government to keep paying to
retain the jobs, Johnboyes?
YES Realy Rich! Try doing some research for once in your useless life!
I always knew you were a closet socialist - except you are a National
Socialist - socialise losses and capitalise profits . . .
BULLSHIT! You praise Labour to the sky. Find somewhere I've given National better than çaould do better'! I'm a realist Rich not a virtue signalling Marxist imbecile like you!
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
The North is showing the way!
Showing the way to what? Higher unemployment and poverty? Hasn't it got enough of that already Rich?
Anticipating the future, recognising the expected lower demand for
refined petroleum, and seeking better profit for shareholders. What
did you want them to do, johnboy?
Get ready for the demand of natural gas another petroleum products that will still be needed for EV cars and maybe actualy look at what they're setting New Zealand up for when the climate Change fraud finally collapses!
Natural gas is not unlimited at present - the sooner we prepare for
using other sources the better. Gas used ot be preferable for home
kitchens, those that have tried both tend to prefer induction tops.
Tell that to restaurants and take aways Rich. Do you know where to find an electric bar bq? The humble bar bq is part of most peoples disaster survival kit. How would electricity work? Hunters and trampers rely on gas. Are they supposed to go back to wood fires?
Yes natural gas is limited at present but only because Ardern took orders from Greenpiece and killed the industry by stopping exploration! Hell New Zealand was set to make $billions from it that could have been used to pay for our miniscule carbon foot print!
John Bowes
2021-02-21 03:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 14:34:32 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:29:44 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 13:16:59 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
Will power 2750 homes. WOW! But how many EV's will it power Rich?
You work it out - it will produce 16MW - presumably on a sunny day,
but powering 2750 homes is quite a lot of electricity that will not
need to be gnenerated elsewhere.
1. It's only available on sunny days and
2.It's an insignificant amount of energy in the country's current and future needs.
Not your decision or mine, John - the Company clearly believes they
can make a good profit by providing a needed service. If they succeed
others may learn from them and follow, if they don't then we will know
more about the desirability of attempting to use solar power in one of
the sunniest parts of New Zealand. You seem to be demonstrating a very
jaundiced view of a market economy - you appear to prefer that
decisions on meeting power needs be made from the centre, and profits
directed in the leaders interests - how very National Party . . .
ffs! More fake news from Rich! Where have I shown a jaundiced attitude? We were talking about a sight that fits YOUR jaundiced and ill considered view of what we should be doing Rich! The land would be better used to grow your ganja Rich.....
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
What no pathetic answer here. Is the reality finally penetrating the solid lump of bone that keeps your ears apart?
Better than no answer from you . . .
I just follow your example on that Rich! try practicing what you preach for once in your sorry life!
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
Will destroy hundreds of business and thousands of jobs!
Really? Naah; maybe a few, but their going will mean the government
can stop the subsidies - do you want the government to keep paying to
retain the jobs, Johnboyes?
YES Realy Rich! Try doing some research for once in your useless life!
I always knew you were a closet socialist - except you are a National
Socialist - socialise losses and capitalise profits . . .
BULLSHIT! You praise Labour to the sky. Find somewhere I've given National better than çaould do better'! I'm a realist Rich not a virtue signalling Marxist imbecile like you!
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
The North is showing the way!
Showing the way to what? Higher unemployment and poverty? Hasn't it got enough of that already Rich?
Anticipating the future, recognising the expected lower demand for
refined petroleum, and seeking better profit for shareholders. What
did you want them to do, johnboy?
Get ready for the demand of natural gas another petroleum products that will still be needed for EV cars and maybe actualy look at what they're setting New Zealand up for when the climate Change fraud finally collapses!
Natural gas is not unlimited at present - the sooner we prepare for
using other sources the better. Gas used ot be preferable for home
kitchens, those that have tried both tend to prefer induction tops.
Tell that to restaurants and take aways Rich. Do you know where to find an electric bar bq? The humble bar bq is part of most peoples disaster survival kit. How would electricity work? Hunters and trampers rely on gas. Are they supposed to go back to wood fires?
Yes natural gas is limited at present but only because Ardern took orders from Greenpiece and killed the industry by stopping exploration! Hell New Zealand was set to make $billions from it that could have been used to pay for our miniscule carbon foot print!
James Christophers
2021-02-21 21:23:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:29:44 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 13:16:59 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
Will power 2750 homes. WOW! But how many EV's will it power Rich?
You work it out - it will produce 16MW - presumably on a sunny day,
but powering 2750 homes is quite a lot of electricity that will not
need to be gnenerated elsewhere.
1. It's only available on sunny days and
2.It's an insignificant amount of energy in the country's current and future needs.
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
What no pathetic answer here. Is the reality finally penetrating the solid lump of bone that keeps your ears apart?
Better than no answer from you . . .
I just follow your example on that Rich! try practicing what you preach for once in your sorry life!
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124266092/plan-to-quit-refining-at-marsden-point-could-happen-next-year
Will destroy hundreds of business and thousands of jobs!
Really? Naah; maybe a few, but their going will mean the government
can stop the subsidies - do you want the government to keep paying to
retain the jobs, Johnboyes?
YES Realy Rich! Try doing some research for once in your useless life!
I always knew you were a closet socialist - except you are a National
Socialist - socialise losses and capitalise profits . . .
BULLSHIT! You praise Labour to the sky. Find somewhere I've given National better than çaould do better'! I'm a realist Rich not a virtue signalling Marxist imbecile like you!
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
The North is showing the way!
Showing the way to what? Higher unemployment and poverty? Hasn't it got enough of that already Rich?
Anticipating the future, recognising the expected lower demand for
refined petroleum, and seeking better profit for shareholders. What
did you want them to do, johnboy?
Get ready for the demand of natural gas another petroleum products that will still be needed for EV cars and maybe actualy look at what they're setting New Zealand up for when the climate Change fraud finally collapses!
Natural gas is not unlimited at present - the sooner we prepare for
using other sources the better. Gas used ot be preferable for home
kitchens, those that have tried both tend to prefer induction tops.
Similar to gas for near-instantaneous controlling of heat. Sounds very favourable.
Post by John Bowes
Tell that to restaurants and take aways Rich. Do you know where to find an electric bar bq? The humble bar bq is part of most peoples disaster survival kit. How would electricity work? Hunters and trampers rely on gas. Are they supposed to go back to wood fires?
Yes natural gas is limited at present but only because Ardern took orders from Greenpiece and killed the industry by stopping exploration! Hell New Zealand was set to make $billions from it that could have been used to pay for our miniscule carbon foot print!
From an OECD December 2018 report;

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/109053475/new-zealands-outsized-climate-change-contribution

No matter how you interpret the referenced report, to outsiders "100% Pure, clean and green" New Zealanders look a pretty crummy lot when it comes to their emissions. How can any nation hope to talk away charges of cynicism and hypocrisy when such damning data is made global?

Sorry folks, but perception is reality, and this applies in spades to Little Miss Goody Two-Shoes with more emissions **per capita** to answer for (end of 2018) than most other OECD countries. So when it comes to New Zealand claiming to "punch above its weight", perhaps New Zealand should **first** consider whether it might well be punching in the wrong division - maybe even in the wrong category.
James Christophers
2021-02-21 23:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:29:44 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 13:16:59 -0800 (PST), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/green-business/124224899/new-zealands-largest-solar-farm-proposed-for-top-of-country
Will power 2750 homes. WOW! But how many EV's will it power Rich?
You work it out - it will produce 16MW - presumably on a sunny day,
but powering 2750 homes is quite a lot of electricity that will not
need to be gnenerated elsewhere.
1. It's only available on sunny days and
2.It's an insignificant amount of energy in the country's current and future needs.
Solar power is uniquely attractive since the source that drives it is limitless, free and 100% non-polluting at point of collection. The source’s forever diurnal and seasonal periodicity is also 100% predictable and calculable.

Downsides are variable and unpredictable weather patterns plus any prolonged or short-term occlusion of the source - e.g. local atmospheric pollution. Battery storage and onward conversion (as needed) at each individual point of consumption could alleviate if not eliminate these.

But now also consider total overall capital and environmental costs of manufacturing, supplying and applying the means of collection and storage; but this is already a given with whatever source of energy extraction you choose.

Add practical, tangible costs of disposing and/or recycling and replacement of original solar energy equipment. Then add total cost in environmental and all-global-species terms that the foregoing entail.

Quite an exercise and one for the boffins to sort.
Post by John Bowes
Do you know where to find an electric bar bq? The humble bar bq is part of most peoples disaster survival kit.
In which case its use would be relatively brief and therefore not a long term hazard to the environment.
Post by John Bowes
How would electricity work? Hunters and trampers rely on gas. Are they supposed to go back to wood fires?
Nope. Just stop hunting and tramping - both 100% inessential to modern man's survival.

Come to think of it, they could even divert their energies to a little mind improvement and, doubtless with it, a significant raising of the consciousness by, say, reading poetry and drinking weak tea. All this while watching 24/7 re-runs of Attenborough's environmentally concerned penguins being torn to shreds by no less environmentally concerned leopard seals.
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