Discussion:
Is first cousin marriage allowed in NZ?
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Tilly
2011-01-02 00:28:59 UTC
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I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.Initially I was doing some
research on inbreeding in dogs but then got on to inbreeding in humans
which I know
I couldn't find any info regarding this here.

It has destroyed dynasties and effected the royal houses of Europe . For
the last 1400 years since the prophet
allowed first cousin marriage it has become commonplace in many Muslim
countries.


In the UK 55% of Pakistanis marry first cousins , however in Bradford
the rate is much higher , more 75% of Pakistanis marry first cousins in
order to keep wealth within the family .
Despite warnings about the dangers of inbreeding most Pakistani families
are refusing to heed the cautions, even when their own children have
serious genetic disorders. They blame other things for such disasters,
eg. doctors, prescribed drugs, ir Allah's will etc...

It has been disastrous in terms of their offsprings health. In the UK
even though Muslims represent only 3.4% of births nationally, the
incidence of recessive gene disorders from the group accounts for 30% of
all births nationally.
In Bradford they have identified more than 140 recessive gene disorders
amongst local children.
In the UK Pakistani families are 13 times more likely to have family
with recessive gene disorders.

NB: The article is written by a Dane so it mentions the effect
inbreeding is having on the Muslim community in Denmark.

Muslim Inbreeding: Impacts on intelligence, sanity, health and society

Massive inbreeding within the Muslim culture during the last 1.400 years
may have done catastrophic damage to their gene pool. The consequences
of intermarriage between first cousins often have serious impact on the
offspring's intelligence, sanity, health and on their surroundings
The most famous example of inbreeding is in ancient Egypt, where several
Pharaonic dynasties collapsed after a couple of hundred years. In order
to keep wealth and power within the family, the Pharaohs often married
their own sister or half-sister and after a handful of generations the
offspring were mentally and physically unfit to rule. Another historical
example is the royal houses of Europe where royal families often married
among each other because tradition did not allow them to marry people of
non-royal class.

The high amount of mentally retarded and handicapped royalties
throughout European history shows the unhealthy consequences of this
practice. Luckily, the royal families have now allowed themselves to
marry for love and not just for status.

The Muslim culture still practices inbreeding and has been doing so for
longer than any Egyptian dynasty. This practice also predates the
world's
oldest monarchy (the Danish) by 300 years.

A rough estimate shows that close to half of all Muslims in the world
are inbred: In Pakistan, 70 percent of all marriages are between first
cousins (so-called "consanguinity") and in Turkey the amount is between
25-30 percent (Jyllands-Posten, 27/2 2009 More stillbirths among
immigrants"

Statistical research on Arabic countries shows that up to 34 percent of
all marriages in Algiers are consanguine (blood related), 46 percent in
Bahrain, 33 percent in Egypt, 80 percent in Nubia (southern area in
Egypt), 60 percent in Iraq, 64 percent in Jordan, 64 percent in Kuwait,
42 percent in Lebanon, 48 percent in Libya, 47 percent in Mauritania, 54
percent in Qatar, 67 percent in Saudi Arabia, 63 percent in Sudan, 40
percent in Syria, 39 percent in Tunisia, 54 percent in the United Arabic
Emirates and 45 percent in Yemen (Reproductive Health Journal, 2009
Consanguinity and reproductive health among Arabs.).

A large part of inbred Muslims are born from parents who are themselves
inbred - which increase the risks of negative mental and physical
consequenses greatly........................................

Would a ban on inbreeding by Western governments be the answer ? Maybe
not since many ofnthem would return to their country of origin to marry
and then return.


http://europenews.dk/en/node/34368


http://europenews.dk/en/node/34368--
***@gmail.com
Lyndon Watson
2011-01-02 00:41:58 UTC
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Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
It is perfectly legal and always has been under both the common law
and statute.

[Religious ranting deleted.]

LW
Tilly
2011-01-02 01:09:13 UTC
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Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
It is perfectly legal and always has been under both the common law
and statute.

[Religious ranting deleted.]

LW



Why do you call it religious ranting? It isn't.
It could just as well be people of any group .It used to be commonplace
amogst European royalty until recently , it just so happens that it is
still commonplace ,predominantly in Muslim countries.

***@gmail.com
Fred
2011-01-02 01:30:36 UTC
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Post by Lyndon Watson
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the
law is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
It is perfectly legal and always has been under both the common law
and statute.
[Religious ranting deleted.]
LW
Why do you call it religious ranting? It isn't.
It could just as well be people of any group .It used to be
commonplace amogst European royalty until recently , it just so
happens that it is still commonplace ,predominantly in Muslim
countries.
And it also just happens to have no basis for all the claims about insanity
and inbreeding etc.
Tilly
2011-01-02 02:03:24 UTC
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Post by Fred
Post by Lyndon Watson
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the
law is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
It is perfectly legal and always has been under both the common law
and statute.
[Religious ranting deleted.]
LW
Why do you call it religious ranting? It isn't.
It could just as well be people of any group .It used to be
commonplace amogst European royalty until recently , it just so
happens that it is still commonplace ,predominantly in Muslim
countries.
And it also just happens to have no basis for all the claims about
insanity and inbreeding etc.
That's not what the research seems to show Fred.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20435442

Cosanguity may contribute to the incidence of schizophrenia even as a
polygenic illness.

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/15622970701849960
--
***@gmail.com
Sweetpea
2011-01-02 03:00:05 UTC
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It is perfectly legal and always has been under both the common law and
statute.
[Religious ranting deleted.]
Why do you call it religious ranting?
Please fix the quoting settings of your NNTP client.

It didn't appear to be religious ranting to me. It was discussing
inbreeding.
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
Tilly
2011-01-02 03:10:59 UTC
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Post by Sweetpea
It is perfectly legal and always has been under both the common law and
statute.
[Religious ranting deleted.]
Why do you call it religious ranting?
Please fix the quoting settings of your NNTP client.
It didn't appear to be religious ranting to me. It was discussing
inbreeding.
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
Tilly said:

Yes it is a dicussion about inbreeding not Islam.

Sweetpea my quote settings are correct.
Is this better?
--
***@gmail.com
Sweetpea
2011-01-02 03:37:40 UTC
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Post by Tilly
Post by Sweetpea
Please fix the quoting settings of your NNTP client.
It didn't appear to be religious ranting to me. It was discussing
inbreeding.
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
Yes it is a dicussion about inbreeding not Islam.
Sweetpea my quote settings are correct. Is this better?
Better, but it is still not removing signatures, and you don't need to
say "Tilly said". :)
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
Tilly
2011-01-02 03:45:09 UTC
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Post by Sweetpea
Post by Tilly
Post by Sweetpea
Please fix the quoting settings of your NNTP client.
It didn't appear to be religious ranting to me. It was discussing
inbreeding.
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
Yes it is a dicussion about inbreeding not Islam.
Sweetpea my quote settings are correct. Is this better?
Better, but it is still not removing signatures, and you don't need to
say "Tilly said". :)
How is it now?
--
***@gmail.com
Sweetpea
2011-01-02 03:47:25 UTC
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Post by Tilly
Post by Sweetpea
Post by Tilly
Post by Sweetpea
Please fix the quoting settings of your NNTP client.
It didn't appear to be religious ranting to me. It was discussing
inbreeding.
Yes it is a dicussion about inbreeding not Islam.
Sweetpea my quote settings are correct. Is this better?
Better, but it is still not removing signatures, and you don't need to
say "Tilly said". :)
How is it now?
Perfect! :)
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
Tilly
2011-01-02 03:52:25 UTC
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Post by Sweetpea
Post by Tilly
Post by Sweetpea
Post by Tilly
Post by Sweetpea
Please fix the quoting settings of your NNTP client.
It didn't appear to be religious ranting to me. It was discussing
inbreeding.
Yes it is a dicussion about inbreeding not Islam.
Sweetpea my quote settings are correct. Is this better?
Better, but it is still not removing signatures, and you don't need to
say "Tilly said". :)
How is it now?
Perfect! :)
The problem is that for some reason it keeps changing of it's own
accord.
Let's hope it lasts longer than five minutes this time!
Katipo
2011-01-02 21:28:06 UTC
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Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
It is perfectly legal and always has been under both the common law
and statute.
I was under the impression that first cousin marriages were illegal in NZ.

Mind you it is probably too late - at least for those of us of UK descent!
Prior to about the late 19th century most people there spent their entire
lives in the one town. In most cases several generations of the same family
stuck to the one town. This of course drastically reduced marriage partner
choices. First cousin marriages were rare (from what I have seen) but
marriage to more distant cousins was common.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2011-01-02 01:04:00 UTC
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Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Tilly
2011-01-02 01:11:04 UTC
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Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Nothing, but the problem is that many of these children ae betrothed to
first cousins when they are children and have no say over who they
marry. They are forced marriages .
--
***@gmail.com
Fred
2011-01-02 01:31:21 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Nothing, but the problem is that many of these children ae betrothed
to first cousins when they are children and have no say over who they
marry. They are forced marriages .
That is quite a different matter.
-Newsman-
2011-01-02 01:34:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fred
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Nothing, but the problem is that many of these children ae betrothed
to first cousins when they are children and have no say over who they
marry. They are forced marriages .
That is quite a different matter.
Yup. But who is doing all this all too evident forcing all over
Southland?
Tilly
2011-01-02 01:43:19 UTC
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Post by -Newsman-
Post by Fred
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Nothing, but the problem is that many of these children ae betrothed
to first cousins when they are children and have no say over who they
marry. They are forced marriages .
That is quite a different matter.
Yup. But who is doing all this all too evident forcing all over
Southland?
Please expand on that, what are you saying?
--
***@gmail.com
Tilly
2011-01-02 01:46:16 UTC
Reply
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Post by -Newsman-
Post by Fred
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Nothing, but the problem is that many of these children ae betrothed
to first cousins when they are children and have no say over who they
marry. They are forced marriages .
That is quite a different matter.
Yup. But who is doing all this all too evident forcing all over
Southland?
No one AFAIK but I do know of forced marriages here.Often the women
escape to refuges.
--
***@gmail.com
Kuee
2011-01-02 06:05:54 UTC
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Post by Tilly
Post by Fred
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Nothing, but the problem is that many of these children ae betrothed
to first cousins when they are children and have no say over who they
marry. They are forced marriages .
That is quite a different matter.
Yup.  But who is doing all this all too evident forcing all over
Southland?
No one AFAIK but I do know of forced marriages here.Often the women
escape to refuges.
--
yes a lot of women in this situation do manage to either escape the
family which is often difficult with the close family links extending
far, but what about the guys, a lot of them don't want to marry the
one betrothed, no one seems to ask them how they really feel.
Tilly
2011-01-02 01:47:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by -Newsman-
Post by Fred
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Nothing, but the problem is that many of these children ae betrothed
to first cousins when they are children and have no say over who they
marry. They are forced marriages .
That is quite a different matter.
Yup. But who is doing all this all too evident forcing all over
Southland?
The problem of forced marriage must be a problem here because I read not
long ago about a group setting a Womens Refuge for Muslim women.


***@gmail.com
Sweetpea
2011-01-02 03:05:37 UTC
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Post by Tilly
I read not
long ago about a group setting a Womens Refuge for Muslim women.
Why would Islamic women need to have a separate version of Womens Refuge
exclusively for them?

Isn't it bad enough that such a sexist organisation exists in the first
place - let alone have one specifically for women of one particular
religion?!
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
Tilly
2011-01-02 03:15:34 UTC
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Post by Sweetpea
Post by Tilly
I read not
long ago about a group setting a Womens Refuge for Muslim women.
Why would Islamic women need to have a separate version of Womens Refuge
exclusively for them?
IIRC it's a group of Muslim women setting up a refuge in Hamilton.
They seem to think that better understand the problems faced by Muslim
women in abusive relationships.
Post by Sweetpea
Isn't it bad enough that such a sexist organisation exists in the first
place - let alone have one specifically for women of one particular
religion?!
I agree, but maybe there are religious demands that can't be met in
other refuges.


***@gmail.com
Sweetpea
2011-01-02 03:34:12 UTC
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Post by Sweetpea
Why would Islamic women need to have a separate version of Womens
Refuge exclusively for them?
IIRC it's a group of Muslim women setting up a refuge in Hamilton. They
seem to think that better understand the problems faced by Muslim women
in abusive relationships.
Since when can't a person be trained to deal with victims who have been
indoctrinated by Islam?
Post by Sweetpea
Isn't it bad enough that such a sexist organisation exists in the first
place - let alone have one specifically for women of one particular
religion?!
I agree, but maybe there are religious demands that can't be met in
other refuges.
Really? Name 2!
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
Kuee
2011-01-02 06:12:00 UTC
Reply
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Post by Sweetpea
Post by Sweetpea
Why would Islamic women need to have a separate version of Womens
Refuge exclusively for them?
IIRC it's a group of Muslim women setting up a refuge in Hamilton. They
seem to think that better understand the problems faced by Muslim women
in abusive relationships.
Since when can't a person be trained to deal with victims who have been
indoctrinated by Islam?
Post by Sweetpea
Isn't it bad enough that such a sexist organisation exists in the first
place - let alone have one specifically for women of one particular
religion?!
I agree, but maybe there are religious demands that can't be met in
other refuges.
Really? Name 2!
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
oh ffs the same argument about you have never been to china so you
cant tell anyone anything about it, if a group of one armed little
people with green eyes want to set up a support group for only same
type people, let them do it, who are we to say they cant, if they dont
present any danger just butt out everyone.
Sweetpea
2011-01-02 07:10:06 UTC
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if they dont present any danger
just butt out everyone.
Islamic Fundies not presenting any danger???

They're actually WORSE than Christian Fundies (and that's saying a lot!)
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
Tilly
2011-01-04 03:26:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sweetpea
Post by Sweetpea
Why would Islamic women need to have a separate version of Womens
Refuge exclusively for them?
IIRC it's a group of Muslim women setting up a refuge in Hamilton. They
seem to think that better understand the problems faced by Muslim women
in abusive relationships.
Since when can't a person be trained to deal with victims who have been
indoctrinated by Islam?
Post by Sweetpea
Isn't it bad enough that such a sexist organisation exists in the first
place - let alone have one specifically for women of one particular
religion?!
I agree, but maybe there are religious demands that can't be met in
other refuges.
Really? Name 2!
A place to pray that is separate and quiet and halal food.
Tilly
2011-01-04 03:29:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Sweetpea
Post by Sweetpea
Why would Islamic women need to have a separate version of Womens
Refuge exclusively for them?
IIRC it's a group of Muslim women setting up a refuge in Hamilton. They
seem to think that better understand the problems faced by Muslim women
in abusive relationships.
Since when can't a person be trained to deal with victims who have been
indoctrinated by Islam?
Post by Sweetpea
Isn't it bad enough that such a sexist organisation exists in the first
place - let alone have one specifically for women of one particular
religion?!
I agree, but maybe there are religious demands that can't be met in
other refuges.
Really? Name 2!
A place to pray that is separate and quiet and halal food.
Here's a third reason : Ramadan.
Kuee
2011-01-02 06:09:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sweetpea
Post by Tilly
I read not
long ago about a group setting a Womens Refuge for Muslim women.
Why would Islamic women need to have a separate version of Womens Refuge
exclusively for them?
Isn't it bad enough that such a sexist organisation exists in the first
place - let alone have one specifically for women of one particular
religion?!
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
mysogynistic as him too, but I will have to take your word, especially
a post of yesterday suggesting multiple genital operations to do on
Elana Bobbet in the eye for and eye discussion, and then of course
Manager Scwooter told you off, you are one in the same, or he is
paying you good money (from his illegal trading in kiddy porn probably)
Sweetpea
2011-01-02 07:12:36 UTC
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Post by Kuee
mysogynistic
Yes - I can see your point. It must be VERY misogynistic to stand up for
EQUALITY in all respects.
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
John Cawston
2011-01-02 02:48:05 UTC
Reply
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Post by -Newsman-
Post by Fred
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Nothing, but the problem is that many of these children ae betrothed
to first cousins when they are children and have no say over who they
marry. They are forced marriages .
That is quite a different matter.
Yup. But who is doing all this all too evident forcing all over
Southland?
Duh.. thats with sheep. Thats how decent Southlanders can marry for
love, not sex.

JC
Tilly
2011-01-02 01:40:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fred
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Nothing, but the problem is that many of these children ae betrothed
to first cousins when they are children and have no say over who they
marry. They are forced marriages .
That is quite a different matter.
It is done for the purpose of preserving wealth within the family Fred
and in most cases the couple have no choice in the matter.. They are
betrothed as children If they object when they come of age to marry it
is considered a dishonour to the family.





***@gmail.com
Tilly
2011-01-02 02:59:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Fred
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Nothing, but the problem is that many of these children ae betrothed
to first cousins when they are children and have no say over who they
marry. They are forced marriages .
That is quite a different matter.
It is done for the purpose of preserving wealth within the family
Fred and in most cases the couple have no choice in the matter.. They
are betrothed as children If they object when they come of age to
marry it is considered a dishonour to the family.
In closed Ashkenazi Jewish populations ( Charedim)
the strict concept of random mating does not apply because matchmakers
introduce couples from their own group.. The net effectis similar to
consanguineous marriage, with a higher frequency of community-specific
inherited disorders.
In Israel and the US Ashkenazi couples intending to marry are strongly
encouraged to have genetic testing for automal recessive genes .
Diseases such as Tay-Sachs, Gaucher disease, canavan disease,Fanconia
anemia and Neimann -Pick , are all disease which are serious and often
fatal and which occur more frequently in Ashkenazi Jews.
In the Charedi community where marriages are arranged by matchmakers
(but the marriages are not forced) the individuals are tested
anonomaously using a code . The Rabbi views the results by code and if
both people carry the same disorder the Rabbi informs them that the
marriage may not take place.The rate for Tay-Sachs has now fallen below
the rate for the normal population.

Since this seems to work the obvious thing would be to have a similar
programme in countries where cosanguinous marriages are commonplace ,
but the financial cost would probably be beyond their means.--


***@gmail.com
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2011-01-02 06:17:42 UTC
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Post by Tilly
They are forced marriages .
You should have said that to begin with. That is truly objectionable,
nothing to do with whether they’re first cousins or not.
Tilly
2011-01-02 07:52:35 UTC
Reply
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Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
They are forced marriages .
You should have said that to begin with. That is truly objectionable,
nothing to do with whether they're first cousins or not.
I thought you might bother to read the article. <sigh>
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2011-01-03 06:10:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
They are forced marriages .
You should have said that to begin with. That is truly objectionable,
nothing to do with whether they're first cousins or not.
I thought you might bother to read the article. <sigh>
You mean, the way you read it, picked up on the “first cousin” bit, and
totally lost the real point?
Tilly
2011-01-02 01:16:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Does it become the business of governments if the effects of inbreeding
are very costly on the health system?
--
***@gmail.com
Cosmik de Bris
2011-01-02 01:25:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Does it become the business of governments if the effects of inbreeding
are very costly on the health system?
1st cousin marriage is legal here, the stats for birth defects seems to
be double that for the non-related, i.e. 1 - 2% goes to 2 - 4%.
Tilly
2011-01-02 01:29:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cosmik de Bris
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Does it become the business of governments if the effects of
inbreeding
are very costly on the health system?
1st cousin marriage is legal here, the stats for birth defects seems
to be double that for the non-related, i.e. 1 - 2% goes to 2 - 4%.
Logically speaking those countries/ communities in which consanguinity
is commonplace
must be destroying themselves because of the damage of the gene pool..
--
***@gmail.com
Sweetpea
2011-01-02 03:08:01 UTC
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Post by Tilly
Logically speaking those countries/ communities in which consanguinity
is commonplace
must be destroying themselves because of the damage of the gene pool..
What does this tell you about man's ability to faithfully replicate our
DNA?
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
Tilly
2011-01-02 03:19:45 UTC
Reply
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Post by Sweetpea
Post by Tilly
Logically speaking those countries/ communities in which
consanguinity
is commonplace
must be destroying themselves because of the damage of the gene pool..
What does this tell you about man's ability to faithfully replicate our
DNA?
That if we're not careful/watchful we can f**k up. lol

Seriously, diversity is important and if there is a limited gene pool
evolution ('survival of the fittest' )will weed you out eventually.
--
***@gmail.com
Tilly
2011-01-02 01:31:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cosmik de Bris
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Does it become the business of governments if the effects of
inbreeding
are very costly on the health system?
1st cousin marriage is legal here, the stats for birth defects seems
to be double that for the non-related, i.e. 1 - 2% goes to 2 - 4%.
Do you have a link Cosmik?
I presume it's not very common here.
--
***@gmail.com
Cosmik de Bris
2011-01-02 02:00:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Cosmik de Bris
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Does it become the business of governments if the effects of inbreeding
are very costly on the health system?
1st cousin marriage is legal here, the stats for birth defects seems
to be double that for the non-related, i.e. 1 - 2% goes to 2 - 4%.
Do you have a link Cosmik?
I presume it's not very common here.
I don't have a link off-hand, I remember looking it up a while back for
a similar discussion at work. Sorry.
Fred
2011-01-02 01:31:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cosmik de Bris
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the
law is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Does it become the business of governments if the effects of
inbreeding are very costly on the health system?
1st cousin marriage is legal here, the stats for birth defects seems
to be double that for the non-related, i.e. 1 - 2% goes to 2 - 4%.
Cite ?
John Cawston
2011-01-02 01:48:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cosmik de Bris
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Does it become the business of governments if the effects of inbreeding
are very costly on the health system?
1st cousin marriage is legal here, the stats for birth defects seems to
be double that for the non-related, i.e. 1 - 2% goes to 2 - 4%.
Which, I think, compound and progeny of cousins intermarry.

Some years ago there was a TV programme here on girls and pregnancy..
one Maori girl related that it was a common belief in her crowd that
cousins couldn't get pregnant, and that line was used by one of her
cousins to bed her :)

JC
Kuee
2011-01-02 06:03:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Jan 2, 2:25 pm, Cosmik de Bris
Post by Cosmik de Bris
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Does it become the business of governments if the effects of inbreeding
are very costly on the health system?
1st cousin marriage is legal here, the stats for birth defects seems to
be double that for the non-related, i.e. 1 - 2% goes to 2 - 4%.
I would just like to have a bloody cousin!
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2011-01-02 06:16:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the
law is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they
get up to in their private lives?
Does it become the business of governments if the effects of inbreeding
are very costly on the health system?
What costly effects?
Tilly
2011-01-02 07:41:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the
law is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they
get up to in their private lives?
Does it become the business of governments if the effects of
inbreeding
are very costly on the health system?
What costly effects?
The matter has been raised in the British Parliament .
Do a search.
Tilly
2011-01-02 07:54:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the
law is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they
get up to in their private lives?
Does it become the business of governments if the effects of
inbreeding
are very costly on the health system?
What costly effects?
The matter has been raised in the British Parliament .
Do a search.
Here's something about it.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/250164
Sweetpea
2011-01-02 03:02:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get
up to in their private lives?
Translated:

"What business does the law have to tell me and my sister what we get up
to in our private lives".
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
Brian 6424
2011-01-02 05:33:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
What business does the law have to tell consenting adults what they get up
to in their private lives?
Quite correct. Otherwise just what would the simple provincial
dwelling agrarian kiwis have left to do on a cold, wet winter night in
the provinces?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2011-01-02 06:18:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In message
Post by Brian 6424
Otherwise just what would the simple provincial
dwelling agrarian kiwis have left to do on a cold, wet winter night in
the provinces?
They don’t need to be married to do that.
Brian 6424
2011-01-02 18:39:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
In message
Post by Brian 6424
Otherwise just what would the simple provincial
dwelling agrarian kiwis have left to do on a cold, wet winter night in
the provinces?
They don’t need to be married to do that.
I shall defer to your obvious expertise in the matter.
Sweetpea
2011-01-02 02:38:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
A rough estimate shows that close to half of all Muslims in the world
are inbred
That could explain their aggression. Could also explain the Koran and
their willingness to blow themselves up.
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
Tilly
2011-01-02 03:21:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sweetpea
Post by Tilly
A rough estimate shows that close to half of all Muslims in the world
are inbred
That could explain their aggression. Could also explain the Koran and
their willingness to blow themselves up.
Pssssssssttt I hadn't thought of it, but you are supposed to even
suggest things like that. ;-)
--
***@gmail.com
Tilly
2011-01-02 03:23:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Sweetpea
Post by Tilly
A rough estimate shows that close to half of all Muslims in the world
are inbred
That could explain their aggression. Could also explain the Koran and
their willingness to blow themselves up.
Pssssssssttt I hadn't thought of it, but you are supposed to even
suggest things like that. ;-)
--
Correction:

Pssssssssttt I hadn't thought of it, but you **aren't** supposed to
even
Post by Tilly
suggest things like that. ;-)
--
***@gmail.com
Miche
2011-01-02 02:45:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.Initially I was doing some
research on inbreeding in dogs but then got on to inbreeding in humans
which I know
I couldn't find any info regarding this here.
It has destroyed dynasties and effected the royal houses of Europe . For
the last 1400 years since the prophet
allowed first cousin marriage it has become commonplace in many Muslim
countries.
First cousin marriage is legal here.

Miche
--
Electricians do it in three phases
Mgr. Scooter
2011-01-02 09:08:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On , , Sun, 02 Jan 2011 15:45:59 +1300, Re: Is first cousin marriage allowed in
Post by Miche
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.Initially I was doing some
research on inbreeding in dogs but then got on to inbreeding in humans
which I know
I couldn't find any info regarding this here.
It has destroyed dynasties and effected the royal houses of Europe . For
the last 1400 years since the prophet
allowed first cousin marriage it has become commonplace in many Muslim
countries.
First cousin marriage is legal here.
I believe Catholicism forbids first cousin marriage.
--
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor
to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
Anatole France.
Geopelia
2011-01-03 01:09:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mgr. Scooter
On , , Sun, 02 Jan 2011 15:45:59 +1300, Re: Is first cousin marriage allowed in
Post by Miche
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.Initially I was doing some
research on inbreeding in dogs but then got on to inbreeding in humans
which I know
I couldn't find any info regarding this here.
It has destroyed dynasties and effected the royal houses of Europe . For
the last 1400 years since the prophet
allowed first cousin marriage it has become commonplace in many Muslim
countries.
First cousin marriage is legal here.
I believe Catholicism forbids first cousin marriage.
Can't they get a dispensation?

In the Bible a brother should marry his brother's widow. Are the children
considered his or his brother's though?
Seven brothers married the same woman, one after the other. Whose wife is
she in heaven? See Matthew 22.

Can a woman marry her divorced sister's ex husband? I knew a girl who wanted
to do that. It seemed it would be allowed if her sister had died, but not
before. Is that right? It seems a temptation to family murder!

Remember the old song "I'm my own grandpa"?
A man married a widow, and his father married the widow's daughter, as I
remember the song.
Mgr. Scooter
2011-01-03 05:54:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On , , Mon, 3 Jan 2011 14:09:14 +1300, Re: Is first cousin marriage allowed in
Post by Geopelia
Post by Mgr. Scooter
On , , Sun, 02 Jan 2011 15:45:59 +1300, Re: Is first cousin marriage allowed in
Post by Miche
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.Initially I was doing some
research on inbreeding in dogs but then got on to inbreeding in humans
which I know
I couldn't find any info regarding this here.
It has destroyed dynasties and effected the royal houses of Europe . For
the last 1400 years since the prophet
allowed first cousin marriage it has become commonplace in many Muslim
countries.
First cousin marriage is legal here.
I believe Catholicism forbids first cousin marriage.
Can't they get a dispensation?
I think that is generally the case.
Post by Geopelia
In the Bible a brother should marry his brother's widow. Are the children
considered his or his brother's though?
He would look after them but they would be his brothers.
Post by Geopelia
Seven brothers married the same woman, one after the other. Whose wife is
she in heaven? See Matthew 22.
Can a woman marry her divorced sister's ex husband? I knew a girl who wanted
to do that. It seemed it would be allowed if her sister had died, but not
before. Is that right? It seems a temptation to family murder!
Remember the old song "I'm my own grandpa"?
A man married a widow, and his father married the widow's daughter, as I
remember the song.
--
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor
to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
Anatole France.
Kuee
2011-01-03 11:03:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mgr. Scooter
On , , Mon, 3 Jan 2011 14:09:14 +1300, Re: Is first cousin marriage allowed in
Post by Geopelia
Post by Mgr. Scooter
On , , Sun, 02 Jan 2011 15:45:59 +1300, Re: Is first cousin marriage allowed in
Post by Miche
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.Initially I was doing some
research on inbreeding in dogs but then got on to inbreeding in humans
which I know
I couldn't find any info regarding this here.
It has destroyed dynasties and effected the royal houses of Europe . For
the last 1400 years since the prophet
allowed first cousin marriage it has become commonplace in many Muslim
countries.
First cousin marriage is legal here.
I believe Catholicism forbids first cousin marriage.
Can't they get a dispensation?
I think that is generally the case.
Post by Geopelia
In the Bible a brother should marry his brother's widow. Are the children
considered his or his brother's though?
He would look after them but they would be his brothers.
Post by Geopelia
Seven brothers married the same woman, one after the other. Whose wife is
she in heaven? See Matthew 22.
Can a woman marry her divorced sister's ex husband? I knew a girl who wanted
to do that. It seemed it would be allowed if her sister had died, but not
before. Is that right? It seems a temptation to family murder!
Remember the old song "I'm my own grandpa"?
A man married a widow, and his father married the widow's daughter, as I
remember the song.
--
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor
to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
Anatole France.
How the fuck would you know if this was the case your dirty Bahai,
given the name you randomly dropped into conversation a few nights
ago, it seems that being a filthy pervert is a prerequisite for being
a member of your faith, oh well, at least your neigbours will be able
to recognise you with out any problem now you have two different
colored eyes, dont worry, it will be pointed out as a probable lie,
but hell, you thinking anyone here gave a shit about your poxy eye is
a lie, so who would know, mmm whats that smell, oh god, gweg, thats
disgusting!
Apteryx
2011-01-03 08:17:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Geopelia
Post by Mgr. Scooter
On , , Sun, 02 Jan 2011 15:45:59 +1300, Re: Is first cousin marriage allowed in
Post by Miche
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.Initially I was doing some
research on inbreeding in dogs but then got on to inbreeding in humans
which I know
I couldn't find any info regarding this here.
It has destroyed dynasties and effected the royal houses of Europe . For
the last 1400 years since the prophet
allowed first cousin marriage it has become commonplace in many Muslim
countries.
First cousin marriage is legal here.
I believe Catholicism forbids first cousin marriage.
Can't they get a dispensation?
In the Bible a brother should marry his brother's widow. Are the children
considered his or his brother's though?
Children born within a year of the brother's death would be considered
his children.

That is where Onan got into trouble. The "Sin of Onan" is generally
considered to be masturbation, but that is not what Onan did. After the
death of his elder brother, without children, the Lord directly ordered
Onan to have sex with his brother's widow. But Onan knew a bit more
biology than the Mosaic Law. He knew any child he fathered in the next 3
months would be considered his brother's and would inherit his brother's
estate ahead of him. So he came up with the idea of practising the
withdrawal method during that time.

That is why the Lord caused the earth to open up and swallow him, for
the ultimate biblical sin - being a smart-arse.

Apteryx
Fred
2011-01-03 09:10:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Apteryx
Post by Geopelia
In the Bible a brother should marry his brother's widow. Are the
children considered his or his brother's though?
Children born within a year of the brother's death would be considered
his children.
That is where Onan got into trouble. The "Sin of Onan" is generally
considered to be masturbation, but that is not what Onan did. After
the death of his elder brother, without children, the Lord directly
ordered Onan to have sex with his brother's widow. But Onan knew a
bit more biology than the Mosaic Law. He knew any child he fathered
in the next 3 months would be considered his brother's and would
inherit his brother's estate ahead of him. So he came up with the
idea of practising the withdrawal method during that time.
That is why the Lord caused the earth to open up and swallow him, for
the ultimate biblical sin - being a smart-arse.
Certainly good for a laugh - that bible thing.
Geopelia
2011-01-03 11:01:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fred
Post by Apteryx
Post by Geopelia
In the Bible a brother should marry his brother's widow. Are the
children considered his or his brother's though?
Children born within a year of the brother's death would be considered
his children.
That is where Onan got into trouble. The "Sin of Onan" is generally
considered to be masturbation, but that is not what Onan did. After
the death of his elder brother, without children, the Lord directly
ordered Onan to have sex with his brother's widow. But Onan knew a
bit more biology than the Mosaic Law. He knew any child he fathered
in the next 3 months would be considered his brother's and would
inherit his brother's estate ahead of him. So he came up with the
idea of practising the withdrawal method during that time.
That is why the Lord caused the earth to open up and swallow him, for
the ultimate biblical sin - being a smart-arse.
Certainly good for a laugh - that bible thing.
But not so funny for all those poor lads in Victorian times with the dire
threats against masturbation.
Kuee
2011-01-03 11:06:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Apteryx
Post by Geopelia
Post by Mgr. Scooter
On , , Sun, 02 Jan 2011 15:45:59 +1300, Re: Is first cousin marriage allowed in
Post by Miche
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.Initially I was doing some
research on inbreeding in dogs but then got on to inbreeding in humans
which I know
I couldn't find any info regarding this here.
It has destroyed dynasties and effected the royal houses of Europe . For
the last 1400 years since the prophet
allowed first cousin marriage it has become commonplace in many Muslim
countries.
First cousin marriage is legal here.
I believe Catholicism forbids first cousin marriage.
Can't they get a dispensation?
In the Bible a brother should marry his brother's widow. Are the children
considered his or his brother's though?
Children born within a year of the brother's death would be considered
his children.
That is where Onan got into trouble. The "Sin of Onan" is generally
considered to be masturbation, but that is not what Onan did. After the
death of his elder brother, without children, the Lord directly ordered
Onan to have sex with his brother's widow. But Onan knew a bit more
biology than the Mosaic Law. He knew any child he fathered in the next 3
months would be considered his brother's and would inherit his brother's
estate ahead of him. So he came up with the idea of practising the
withdrawal method during that time.
That is why the Lord caused the earth to open up and swallow him, for
the ultimate biblical sin - being a smart-arse.
Apteryx
lolol I love it, yes even if you look up onanism in recently published
books it refers to onanism as an old term for masturbation, but
christians are very good at making all things fun a sin, like eating
pork, what do you mean thats not in the bible??? Sure it is,
Leviticus I think from memory, oh so being the old testement doesnt
count, great then that means men can lie with men as they do women
again, awesome :)
Geopelia
2011-01-03 21:01:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Apteryx
Post by Geopelia
Post by Mgr. Scooter
On , , Sun, 02 Jan 2011 15:45:59 +1300, Re: Is first cousin marriage allowed in
Post by Miche
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.Initially I was doing some
research on inbreeding in dogs but then got on to inbreeding in humans
which I know
I couldn't find any info regarding this here.
It has destroyed dynasties and effected the royal houses of Europe . For
the last 1400 years since the prophet
allowed first cousin marriage it has become commonplace in many Muslim
countries.
First cousin marriage is legal here.
I believe Catholicism forbids first cousin marriage.
Can't they get a dispensation?
In the Bible a brother should marry his brother's widow. Are the children
considered his or his brother's though?
Children born within a year of the brother's death would be considered
his children.
That is where Onan got into trouble. The "Sin of Onan" is generally
considered to be masturbation, but that is not what Onan did. After the
death of his elder brother, without children, the Lord directly ordered
Onan to have sex with his brother's widow. But Onan knew a bit more
biology than the Mosaic Law. He knew any child he fathered in the next 3
months would be considered his brother's and would inherit his brother's
estate ahead of him. So he came up with the idea of practising the
withdrawal method during that time.
That is why the Lord caused the earth to open up and swallow him, for
the ultimate biblical sin - being a smart-arse.
Apteryx
lolol I love it, yes even if you look up onanism in recently published
books it refers to onanism as an old term for masturbation, but
christians are very good at making all things fun a sin, like eating
pork, what do you mean thats not in the bible??? Sure it is,
Leviticus I think from memory, oh so being the old testement doesnt
count, great then that means men can lie with men as they do women
again, awesome :)
---------------------------------

It's in the New Testament too. Romans 1 : 26,27

Read the whole chapter.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/romans-kjv.html

If you liked the Rome TV series, keep it in mind when you read Romans.
It's good to know the people and culture that St Paul was writing for.
Geopelia
2011-01-02 10:42:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Miche
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.Initially I was doing some
research on inbreeding in dogs but then got on to inbreeding in humans
which I know
I couldn't find any info regarding this here.
It has destroyed dynasties and effected the royal houses of Europe . For
the last 1400 years since the prophet
allowed first cousin marriage it has become commonplace in many Muslim
countries.
First cousin marriage is legal here.
Miche
Provided there are no genetic problems, there should be no problem with
first cousin marriages. But it would be as well to have some kind of genetic
tests or counselling first.

Is it close enough to be called inbreeding?

Years ago, most country people in Britain married folks either from their
own village, or neighbouring villages.
That might be a problem after several generations, as many people would be
related in some way, and carry the same genes.

As for the Royal families of Europe, Queen Victoria passed on haemophilia
through her daughters. (Males may be affected, female aren't but can carry
it).
The Russian and I think the Spanish royal families had it. Edward VII
fortunately was male and not affected, so Britain's royals are free of it.
I wonder if any descendants still carry it.
Lyndon Watson
2011-01-03 05:12:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Geopelia
Provided there are no genetic problems, there should be no problem with
first cousin marriages. But it would be as well to have some kind of genetic
tests or counselling first.
Provided there are no genetic problems, there should be no problem
with brother & sister marriages. The problem is in the proviso. We
have no way of determining with certainty that the interbreeding of
two people will not lead to some recessive defect surfacing.

But, then, there is no way of ensuring that the mating of people as
unrelated as any can be will not result in some disastrous mutation.

LW
misanthropic_curmudgeon
2011-01-02 07:20:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.Initially I was doing some
research on inbreeding in dogs but then got on to inbreeding in humans
which I know
I couldn't find any info regarding this here.
A list of who one can and cant marry:
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1955/0092/latest/DLM292639.html
ChristianKnight
2011-01-02 08:48:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Jan 2, 8:20 pm, misanthropic_curmudgeon
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.Initially I was doing some
research on inbreeding in dogs but then got on to inbreeding in humans
which I know
I couldn't find any info regarding this here.
A list of who one can and cant marry:http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1955/0092/latest/DLM292639....
How many of them have no detremental effect on the Gene pool.
Stepfather,Son's daughter's husband, Daughter's daughter's husband,
3 from 20 have no relationship through the gene pool.
I am happy to marry a nice lady thats not from my immeadiate family.
Christ's love
victor
2011-01-02 09:18:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by misanthropic_curmudgeon
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.Initially I was doing some
research on inbreeding in dogs but then got on to inbreeding in humans
which I know
I couldn't find any info regarding this here.
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1955/0092/latest/DLM292639.html
Inside or outside those legal limits the risk can be mitigated by
genetic screening.
Even well outside the family group gingers should not attempt to breed.
ChristianKnight
2011-01-03 21:35:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by victor
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.Initially I was doing some
research on inbreeding in dogs but then got on to inbreeding in humans
which I know
I couldn't find any info regarding this here.
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1955/0092/latest/DLM292639....
Inside or outside those legal limits the risk can be mitigated by
genetic screening.
Even well outside the family group gingers should not attempt to breed.
Whys that because you want to eradicate them?
Christ's love
Sweetpea
2011-01-03 22:14:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by victor
Even well outside the family group gingers should not attempt to breed.
Whys that because you want to eradicate them? Christ's love
He's suggesting that they're genetic mutants.
--
"Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
victor
2011-01-03 22:43:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sweetpea
Post by victor
Even well outside the family group gingers should not attempt to breed.
Whys that because you want to eradicate them? Christ's love
He's suggesting that they're genetic mutants.
Their higher probability of developing melanoma would result in extra
health costs.
That was the OP's reasoning against first cousin marriage wasn't it ?
Geopelia
2011-01-04 02:00:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by victor
Post by Sweetpea
Post by victor
Even well outside the family group gingers should not attempt to breed.
Whys that because you want to eradicate them? Christ's love
He's suggesting that they're genetic mutants.
Their higher probability of developing melanoma would result in extra
health costs.
That was the OP's reasoning against first cousin marriage wasn't it ?
The mutatiom is on the gene MC1R on chromosome 16 It is recessive.
They are no more different from the rest of us than natural platinum blonds.
Both have to be careful in the sun.

Why shouldn't they breed? It isn't a dangerous condition. And unless their
partners also carry the gene, the children probably won't be ginger, though
they may carry the gene to their descendants.

"Dangerous human mutants" belong in science fiction.
John Cawston
2011-01-04 02:36:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Geopelia
Post by victor
Post by Sweetpea
Post by victor
Even well outside the family group gingers should not attempt to breed.
Whys that because you want to eradicate them? Christ's love
He's suggesting that they're genetic mutants.
Their higher probability of developing melanoma would result in extra
health costs.
That was the OP's reasoning against first cousin marriage wasn't it ?
The mutatiom is on the gene MC1R on chromosome 16 It is recessive.
They are no more different from the rest of us than natural platinum blonds.
Both have to be careful in the sun.
Why shouldn't they breed? It isn't a dangerous condition. And unless their
partners also carry the gene, the children probably won't be ginger, though
they may carry the gene to their descendants.
"Dangerous human mutants" belong in science fiction.
The original prohibition by the Catholic Church out to the fouth or even
seventh degree was to break down tribalism and petty wars between
families. So young men and women who married outsiders effectively
became hostages to improved relationships with wider groupings.

I suspect that this practice helped unite the various European tribal
groups so well they were able to mount increasingly formidable
opposition to Muslim incursions and was a factor in the development of
loyalty to the nation rather than the family.

The Church gradually relaxed the prohibition over the centuries to now
when all but first cousin marriages became accepted. At that point the
Church dug in its heels because in the still rural world there was the
strong prospect of corruption (of young girls) by cousins who either
lived under the same roof, just down the street or across the river.

JC
victor
2011-01-04 03:16:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Cawston
The original prohibition by the Catholic Church out to the fouth or even
seventh degree was to break down tribalism and petty wars between
families. So young men and women who married outsiders effectively
became hostages to improved relationships with wider groupings.
I suspect that this practice helped unite the various European tribal
groups so well they were able to mount increasingly formidable
opposition to Muslim incursions and was a factor in the development of
loyalty to the nation rather than the family.
The Church gradually relaxed the prohibition over the centuries to now
when all but first cousin marriages became accepted. At that point the
Church dug in its heels because in the still rural world there was the
strong prospect of corruption (of young girls) by cousins who either
lived under the same roof, just down the street or across the river.
JC
There must have been considerable income potential in the sale of
dispensations for consanguinity in the fourth degree (first cousins)
because there was a lot of it.
David
2011-01-02 19:56:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Would a ban on inbreeding by Western governments  be the answer ? Maybe
not since many ofnthem would return to their country of origin to marry
and then return.
The great Psychologist Abraham Maslow was the product of cousin
marriage
and he himself married his cousin.

Inter family breeding leads to strong positive characeristics as well
as
bad ones...

in this global world i see a whole lot of variance in who people
choose to
have family with.


This is positive.... middle eastern cultures have a propensity for
internal
marriage... as they sit astride Africa Asia and Europe there must be
a fairly big gene pool...

so both approaches are not mutually exclusive.
Tilly
2011-01-02 22:44:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Would a ban on inbreeding by Western governments be the answer ? Maybe
not since many ofnthem would return to their country of origin to marry
and then return.
The great Psychologist Abraham Maslow was the product of cousin
marriage
and he himself married his cousin.

We are talking first cousin marriages for generation after generation.

Inter family breeding leads to strong positive characeristics as well
as
bad ones...


What strong positive characteritics are there in cosanguination apart
from preserving wealth?




in this global world i see a whole lot of variance in who people
choose to
have family with.

In most cases *they don't have a choice*, they are arranged,forced
marriages to preserve wealth.
Did you bother to read the article?
Obviously not.


This is positive.... middle eastern cultures have a propensity for
internal
marriage... as they sit astride Africa Asia and Europe there must be
a fairly big gene pool...

WTF?
There is a big gene pool but they don't take advantage of it,
cosanguination is very common .
It is having a negative effect genetically not a postive effect.


so both approaches are not mutually exclusive.
Geopelia
2011-01-03 01:22:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Would a ban on inbreeding by Western governments be the answer ? Maybe
not since many ofnthem would return to their country of origin to marry
and then return.
The great Psychologist Abraham Maslow was the product of cousin
marriage
and he himself married his cousin.

Inter family breeding leads to strong positive characeristics as well
as
bad ones...

in this global world i see a whole lot of variance in who people
choose to
have family with.


This is positive.... middle eastern cultures have a propensity for
internal
marriage... as they sit astride Africa Asia and Europe there must be
a fairly big gene pool...

so both approaches are not mutually exclusive.


------------------------
Hitler was illegitimate, the child of uncle and niece. And he was having an
affair with his own niece.
So much for Aryan purity!

Perhaps that is why he only had one ball, as the song goes.
But I don't think they were all very close blood relations.

(Now watch all the cross posting Nazi lot descend upon this thread. I
haven't cross posted it)
ChristianKnight
2011-01-03 02:36:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David
Would a ban on inbreeding by Western governments be the answer ? Maybe
not since many ofnthem would return to their country of origin to marry
and then return.
The great Psychologist Abraham Maslow was the product of cousin
marriage
and he himself married his cousin.
Inter family breeding leads to strong positive characeristics as well
as
bad ones...
in this global world i see a whole lot of variance in who people
choose to
have family with.
This is positive.... middle eastern cultures have a propensity for
internal
marriage... as they sit astride Africa Asia and Europe there must be
a fairly big gene pool...
so both approaches are not mutually exclusive.
------------------------
Hitler was illegitimate, the child of uncle and niece. And he was having an
affair with his own niece.
So much for Aryan purity!
Perhaps that is why he only had one ball, as the song goes.
But I don't think they were all very close blood relations.
(Now watch all the cross posting Nazi lot descend upon this thread. I
haven't cross posted it)
You havn't taken birth defects into account at all.
Yuck I do not want a mutant child.,
I'm glad the cat has taken it's mutant kittin away. If I see iyt again
sure I'll look after it and massage it's mutant paws but if I have a
child please please pleaSE LET HIM BE handsome clean swift and smart
just like his mum.
Christ's love
Apteryx
2011-01-03 08:20:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
First cousin marriage is permitted in virtually all Western countries
except the most primitive - ie, some states of the US.

Apteryx
collector.nz
2011-01-03 08:55:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Apteryx
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
First cousin marriage is permitted in virtually all Western countries
except the most primitive - ie, some states of the US.
Apteryx
Where it is considered obligatory :)
Fred
2011-01-03 09:11:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by collector.nz
Post by Apteryx
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the
law is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
First cousin marriage is permitted in virtually all Western countries
except the most primitive - ie, some states of the US.
Apteryx
Where it is considered obligatory :)
Anywhere where you have a particularly horny cousiness.
Geopelia
2011-01-03 11:05:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fred
Post by collector.nz
Post by Apteryx
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the
law is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
First cousin marriage is permitted in virtually all Western countries
except the most primitive - ie, some states of the US.
Apteryx
Where it is considered obligatory :)
Anywhere where you have a particularly horny cousiness.
Old saying - A Southern virgin is a girl who can run faster than her
brother.
Kuee
2011-01-03 11:35:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fred
Post by collector.nz
Post by Apteryx
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the
law is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
First cousin marriage is permitted in virtually all Western countries
except the most primitive - ie, some states of the US.
Apteryx
Where it is considered obligatory :)
Anywhere where you have a particularly horny cousiness.
I have been told by a very reliable source (but kept it quiet until
the appropriate thread came up) That Gwegs mummy walked in on him
playing blow up dolls with his cousin, the problem was that then, as
it is now, the cousin was quite a few years younger than Gweg, his
mother was sooo angry as she had also found him whacking one out in
the bath one night, that she grabbed his little weaner, pulled it out
until he begged, in tears for her to let go, then produced a massive
cleaver and threatened to cut it off if ever he touched it again, or
touched another persons as he did with his cousin. This would more
than adequately make sense given his (apparent) sudden predilection
towards all thing male, members and bottoms, if you have been here for
as long as I have, you will realise his self confessed outing "I have
outed more paedophiles in this group than anyone else" of anyone who
dares to upset his tiny little yet very warped mind.

He yearns to complete what he began with his much younger cousin,
hence his obsession with homosexual males, and he loathes what his
mummy did to him, hence his loathing of lesbians, or any woman if you
follow the thread right back. Because his mother cut him off in his
prime (pardon the pun) he now truly believes that all homosexual males
are child molesters, burning with fury inside and out that he never
got to feel the final outcome of his abuse on his cousin, who btw was
far to young to know what was happening. He over compensates as I am
sure you can see from his posts, and really, someone should have put
him out of his misery years ago, bugger all this political
correctness, he only obsesses (without continuity) about my sexuality,
because I called him on his abuse of young men as far back as 1993,
pre Internet in NP. If you really believe he will tell you the truth,
ask him why he was sacked as Janitor for the (then) local Polytechnic,
if you dont wish to ask, but are up for a laugh, just Google names and
alias's and occupations.

I have a sworn affidavits in a secure setting in town, of not just one
of these much younger men Gweg encountered and abused, not even
connected by same age, class or subject. Now the question still
remains unanswered, because giving away the punchline is no fun, the
unanswered question is what type of abuse has been sworn to, and who
by?

He will more than likely come up with numerous names and possible
accusations, followed by lashings of justifications, polished I might
add, but probably barking up the wrong tree even then, in a pathetic
attempt to cover all his guilty secrets, but I hope he doesn't,
because I know for a fact, he cannot even recall the names or faces of
the guys I have the documents of. He is much older than me, yet he has
looked the same since at least the 80's I suspect all of his life
(adult)

All in time, now someone did point out that my rants were quite
disturbing, may I suggest that anyone who feels this way learn how to
filter my posts out, because the reality these documents hold, and the
other not so young men (now) who did not put anything in writing, but
have never forgotten their encounter with Mr Mop, will one day
surface, maybe in this group, maybe not, but as I swore way back in
the mid nineties when I heard the allegations for the first time, then
was presented with proof of more than one instance, I would never
leave this piece of scum alone, until I saw justice served. it is
only a matter of time, not by my choosing, but ensuring the co-
ordination of people, documentation and evidence is presented to the
right people at the right time, this I have no control over, so as I
said if my "rants" disturb you, ignore me, as Gweg claims to do, yet
another lie I have proven to be. But if I was Manager Scooter, I would
be the last person to piss off right now, I gave him every chance of
meeting in private, but in a public place as he fears me so much, yet
time and time again he ignored my invitations, so as some would say,
it is in the lap of the Gods, I guess some would ask, is it the right
gods, the Bahai Gods that he believes in, of the God of creation
deliverer of truth and purity according to CK?? or Gods we have yet to
learn of, Who knows, so I will just wait, and wait and
wait.............................. gosh, look at the time, Must file
the fangs and fly peeps lolol
Tilly
2011-01-04 00:35:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Apteryx
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
First cousin marriage is permitted in virtually all Western countries
except the most primitive - ie, some states of the US.
Apteryx
True but it's not forced marriage.
According to the Independent In the UK approximately 17,000 women p.a
are victims of forced marriage.
When two cousins have children, the risk of having a handicapped child
is doubled and it is reflected in UK
health statistics.In areas where there is a concentration of Pakistanis
the stats show that Pakistanis havea much higher rate of handicapped
children than other groups.
victor
2011-01-04 01:04:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Apteryx
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
First cousin marriage is permitted in virtually all Western countries
except the most primitive - ie, some states of the US.
Apteryx
True but it's not forced marriage.
According to the Independent In the UK approximately 17,000 women p.a
are victims of forced marriage.
When two cousins have children, the risk of having a handicapped child
is doubled and it is reflected in UK
health statistics.In areas where there is a concentration of Pakistanis
the stats show that Pakistanis havea much higher rate of handicapped
children than other groups.
Are you making an argument for a health campaign for voluntary genetic
testing ?
Tilly
2011-01-04 01:50:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by victor
Post by Tilly
Post by Apteryx
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
First cousin marriage is permitted in virtually all Western
countries
except the most primitive - ie, some states of the US.
Apteryx
True but it's not forced marriage.
According to the Independent In the UK approximately 17,000 women p.a
are victims of forced marriage.
When two cousins have children, the risk of having a handicapped child
is doubled and it is reflected in UK
health statistics.In areas where there is a concentration of
Pakistanis
the stats show that Pakistanis havea much higher rate of handicapped
children than other groups.
Are you making an argument for a health campaign for voluntary genetic
testing ?
Yes, but how many would take advantage of it if they believe handicapped
children are "Allahs will "?
victor
2011-01-04 02:06:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Yes, but how many would take advantage of it if they believe handicapped
children are "Allahs will "?
They could breed with anyone they like and just chop the kids leg off if
that is what they wanted.
Tilly
2011-01-04 02:18:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by victor
Post by Tilly
Yes, but how many would take advantage of it if they believe
handicapped
children are "Allahs will "?
They could breed with anyone they like and just chop the kids leg off
if that is what they wanted.
These marriages are frequently pre-arranged when the couple are
children and the mmarriages are often forced ie.they have no choice.
victor
2011-01-04 02:34:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by victor
Post by Tilly
Yes, but how many would take advantage of it if they believe
handicapped
children are "Allahs will "?
They could breed with anyone they like and just chop the kids leg off
if that is what they wanted.
These marriages are frequently pre-arranged when the couple are
children and the mmarriages are often forced ie.they have no choice.
That would be just as objectionable regardless of the genetic
relationship wouldn't it ?
Tilly
2011-01-04 03:12:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by victor
Post by Tilly
Post by victor
Post by Tilly
Yes, but how many would take advantage of it if they believe handicapped
children are "Allahs will "?
They could breed with anyone they like and just chop the kids leg off
if that is what they wanted.
These marriages are frequently pre-arranged when the couple are
children and the mmarriages are often forced ie.they have no choice.
That would be just as objectionable regardless of the genetic
relationship wouldn't it ?
Of course, but this is their traditional way of doing things.
victor
2011-01-04 04:04:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Of course, but this is their traditional way of doing things.
The Pakistani clan forced marriages don't stipulate that the couple
should be first cousins.
Tilly
2011-01-04 04:09:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by victor
Post by Tilly
Of course, but this is their traditional way of doing things.
The Pakistani clan forced marriages don't stipulate that the couple
should be first cousins.
It's very commonplace, especially to conserve wealth within a family.
Tilly
2011-01-04 04:11:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by victor
Post by Tilly
Of course, but this is their traditional way of doing things.
The Pakistani clan forced marriages don't stipulate that the couple
should be first cousins.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9746828
Tilly
2011-01-04 04:24:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by victor
Post by Tilly
Of course, but this is their traditional way of doing things.
The Pakistani clan forced marriages don't stipulate that the couple
should be first cousins.
I wasn't just referring to Pakistan, it is very commonplace in much of
the Middle East.

Cousin marriage has often been chosen to keep cultural values intact
through several generations, ensure the compatibility of spouses, and
preserve familial wealth, sometimes via advantages relating to dowry or
bride price. Other reasons may include geographic proximity, tradition,
strengthening of family ties, maintenance of family structure, a closer
relationship between the wife and her in-laws, greater marital stability
and durability, ease of prenuptial negotiations, enhanced female
autonomy, the desire to avoid hidden health problems and other
undesirable traits in a lesser-known spouse, and romantic love. Lower
domestic violence and divorce rates have also been claimed. Many such
marriages are arranged and facilitated by other extended family members

Among British Pakistanis most marriages are transnational and have the
effect of bringing in another Pakistani under the constraints of British
immigration control. In one small sample, 92% of transnational marriages
were with either first or second cousins.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage

Geopelia
2011-01-04 02:27:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by victor
Post by Tilly
Post by Apteryx
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
First cousin marriage is permitted in virtually all Western countries
except the most primitive - ie, some states of the US.
Apteryx
True but it's not forced marriage.
According to the Independent In the UK approximately 17,000 women p.a
are victims of forced marriage.
When two cousins have children, the risk of having a handicapped child
is doubled and it is reflected in UK
health statistics.In areas where there is a concentration of Pakistanis
the stats show that Pakistanis havea much higher rate of handicapped
children than other groups.
Are you making an argument for a health campaign for voluntary genetic
testing ?
Ideally, all couples intending to have children should have genetic testing.
But that might be too expensive as a routine check.

However, they should be aware of any genetic condition in their families
which could be passed on to the children, if both carry it.
e.g. Cystic fibrosis is one.
Genetic testing would be advisable if something like that is anywhere among
the blood relations.

What are two carriers to do, if they want a child who is the child of both
of them?
Perhaps IVF and having the embryos tested before implantation? Again, the
cost may be too high.
Or simply abort any affected foetus, if it is possible to do genetic tests
on one.
But they are human beings with human feelings, not experimental animals.
victor
2011-01-04 02:48:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Geopelia
Post by victor
Post by Tilly
Post by Apteryx
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what the law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
First cousin marriage is permitted in virtually all Western countries
except the most primitive - ie, some states of the US.
Apteryx
True but it's not forced marriage.
According to the Independent In the UK approximately 17,000 women p.a
are victims of forced marriage.
When two cousins have children, the risk of having a handicapped child
is doubled and it is reflected in UK
health statistics.In areas where there is a concentration of Pakistanis
the stats show that Pakistanis havea much higher rate of handicapped
children than other groups.
Are you making an argument for a health campaign for voluntary genetic
testing ?
Ideally, all couples intending to have children should have genetic testing.
But that might be too expensive as a routine check.
However, they should be aware of any genetic condition in their families
which could be passed on to the children, if both carry it.
e.g. Cystic fibrosis is one.
Genetic testing would be advisable if something like that is anywhere among
the blood relations.
What are two carriers to do, if they want a child who is the child of both
of them?
Perhaps IVF and having the embryos tested before implantation? Again, the
cost may be too high.
Or simply abort any affected foetus, if it is possible to do genetic tests
on one.
But they are human beings with human feelings, not experimental animals.
A higher incidence of first cousins breeding must have been quite normal
throughout pre urban pre industrial history.

The high incidence of Tay-Sachs disease in Ashkenazi Jews and the
subsequent success of screening programs is an example of the benefit of
using science rather than prejudice dealing with closed genetic groups.
Tilly
2011-01-04 03:20:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by victor
Post by Geopelia
Post by victor
Post by Tilly
Post by Apteryx
Post by Tilly
I have been reading an article on the subject and wondred what
the
law
is in NZ regarding first cousin marriage.
First cousin marriage is permitted in virtually all Western countries
except the most primitive - ie, some states of the US.
Apteryx
True but it's not forced marriage.
According to the Independent In the UK approximately 17,000 women p.a
are victims of forced marriage.
When two cousins have children, the risk of having a handicapped child
is doubled and it is reflected in UK
health statistics.In areas where there is a concentration of Pakistanis
the stats show that Pakistanis havea much higher rate of
handicapped
children than other groups.
Are you making an argument for a health campaign for voluntary genetic
testing ?
Ideally, all couples intending to have children should have genetic testing.
But that might be too expensive as a routine check.
However, they should be aware of any genetic condition in their families
which could be passed on to the children, if both carry it.
e.g. Cystic fibrosis is one.
Genetic testing would be advisable if something like that is
anywhere among
the blood relations.
What are two carriers to do, if they want a child who is the child of both
of them?
Perhaps IVF and having the embryos tested before implantation? Again, the
cost may be too high.
Or simply abort any affected foetus, if it is possible to do genetic tests
on one.
But they are human beings with human feelings, not experimental animals.
A higher incidence of first cousins breeding must have been quite
normal throughout pre urban pre industrial history.
The high incidence of Tay-Sachs disease in Ashkenazi Jews and the
subsequent success of screening programs is an example of the benefit
of using science rather than prejudice dealing with closed genetic
groups.
Correct , but community leaders particularly Rabbis were/are very
involved
in promoting genetic testing for Ashkenazi Jews, particularly to the
ultra-orthodox
who still have arranged marriages .(not forced marriages as either young
person who
is matched can opt out ). Since they don't have TV's etc......they
don't have the same access to information
as the general Ashkenazi population.
What would probably be required in the Pakistani community and other
communities where this is the norm is that community leaders and
religious leaders get involved. Unfortunately some of them thhink it is
'God's will'.
victor
2011-01-04 04:14:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Correct , but community leaders particularly Rabbis were/are very
involved
in promoting genetic testing for Ashkenazi Jews, particularly to the
ultra-orthodox
who still have arranged marriages .(not forced marriages as either young
person who
is matched can opt out ). Since they don't have TV's etc......they
don't have the same access to information
as the general Ashkenazi population.
What would probably be required in the Pakistani community and other
communities where this is the norm is that community leaders and
religious leaders get involved. Unfortunately some of them thhink it is
'God's will'.
Then they will be less likely to seek treatment, so you can take some
relief that the cost to the health system might be less than for secular
mutants.
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