Discussion:
Many holes in mental health?
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John Bowes
2021-09-24 06:48:40 UTC
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Nah. Just one $1.9 billion one!
But Little Andy the union stooge doesn't believe it!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300415575/government-attempts-to-shore-up-its-defences-on-mental-health-but-many-holes-remain

Makes you wonder how good the Apartheid health system is going to work...
Firu
2021-09-24 20:07:13 UTC
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Post by John Bowes
Nah. Just one $1.9 billion one!
But Little Andy the union stooge doesn't believe it!
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300415575/government-attempts-to-shore-up-its-defences-on-mental-health-but-many-holes-remain
Makes you wonder how good the Apartheid health system is going to work...
FFS! This is one of those areas that governments of all parties have
screwed up successively. It needs some urgent action, it needs someone
to take control, not just rely on 'reports' prepared by aides. (That
turn out to be less than accurate!)

But despite the seriousness of the failing it just becomes another
political point scoring exercise in blamestorming and name calling.

Lets be perfectly clear, governments of all parties dropped the ball on
this one!
Gordon
2021-09-25 07:24:22 UTC
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Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Nah. Just one $1.9 billion one!
But Little Andy the union stooge doesn't believe it!
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300415575/government-attempts-to-shore-up-its-defences-on-mental-health-but-many-holes-remain
Makes you wonder how good the Apartheid health system is going to work...
FFS! This is one of those areas that governments of all parties have
screwed up successively. It needs some urgent action, it needs someone
to take control, not just rely on 'reports' prepared by aides. (That
turn out to be less than accurate!)
But despite the seriousness of the failing it just becomes another
political point scoring exercise in blamestorming and name calling.
Lets be perfectly clear, governments of all parties dropped the ball on
this one!
It is more a matter of no Government having every picked the ball up.

However I do agree that there are some things which apply to every citzern,
good health care is one of them. As such the opposition should help/guide
the party which is in power by pointing out things that they have missed.
Work on the problem from all angles. Bi-partisan approach.

Yep, pigs will be flying first.
John Bowes
2021-09-25 09:22:15 UTC
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Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Nah. Just one $1.9 billion one!
But Little Andy the union stooge doesn't believe it!
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300415575/government-attempts-to-shore-up-its-defences-on-mental-health-but-many-holes-remain
Makes you wonder how good the Apartheid health system is going to work...
FFS! This is one of those areas that governments of all parties have
screwed up successively. It needs some urgent action, it needs someone
to take control, not just rely on 'reports' prepared by aides. (That
turn out to be less than accurate!)
But despite the seriousness of the failing it just becomes another
political point scoring exercise in blamestorming and name calling.
Lets be perfectly clear, governments of all parties dropped the ball on
this one!
In this governments case it was a $1.9 billion ball. something no other government has done plus Ardern claimed it was important!
Firu
2021-09-25 10:05:17 UTC
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Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Nah. Just one $1.9 billion one!
But Little Andy the union stooge doesn't believe it!
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300415575/government-attempts-to-shore-up-its-defences-on-mental-health-but-many-holes-remain
Makes you wonder how good the Apartheid health system is going to work...
FFS! This is one of those areas that governments of all parties have
screwed up successively. It needs some urgent action, it needs someone
to take control, not just rely on 'reports' prepared by aides. (That
turn out to be less than accurate!)
But despite the seriousness of the failing it just becomes another
political point scoring exercise in blamestorming and name calling.
Lets be perfectly clear, governments of all parties dropped the ball on
this one!
In this governments case it was a $1.9 billion ball. something no other government has done plus Ardern claimed it was important!
And that's a valid argument. I'd have expected more for $1.9 billion
too. Ardern's right, it is important, even more so now.

The wriggling from the Health Minister over his piss poor oversight of
the spending is telling. He might not have the right levers to pull to
tell departments what to spend the money on, (it was doled out for
mental health!) but I' m pretty sure he could have demanded to know some
details of where the money was being spent, y'know, how much had been
spent and on what. But it's all covid's fault, or his officials.

Might be time to have a new health minister or get him some new, more
honest, officials?

Either way, where's the money?
John Bowes
2021-09-25 23:30:07 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Nah. Just one $1.9 billion one!
But Little Andy the union stooge doesn't believe it!
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300415575/government-attempts-to-shore-up-its-defences-on-mental-health-but-many-holes-remain
Makes you wonder how good the Apartheid health system is going to work...
FFS! This is one of those areas that governments of all parties have
screwed up successively. It needs some urgent action, it needs someone
to take control, not just rely on 'reports' prepared by aides. (That
turn out to be less than accurate!)
But despite the seriousness of the failing it just becomes another
political point scoring exercise in blamestorming and name calling.
Lets be perfectly clear, governments of all parties dropped the ball on
this one!
In this governments case it was a $1.9 billion ball. something no other government has done plus Ardern claimed it was important!
And that's a valid argument. I'd have expected more for $1.9 billion
too. Ardern's right, it is important, even more so now.
The wriggling from the Health Minister over his piss poor oversight of
the spending is telling. He might not have the right levers to pull to
tell departments what to spend the money on, (it was doled out for
mental health!) but I' m pretty sure he could have demanded to know some
details of where the money was being spent, y'know, how much had been
spent and on what. But it's all covid's fault, or his officials.
Might be time to have a new health minister or get him some new, more
honest, officials?
Honest Ministers would be nice. But Ministers who are actually capable of ensuring the necessary changes would be nice. I can see a major disaster coming in health in New Zealand (along with several other ministry's) with the rush to central control. It didn't work in the Soviet Union and sure ain't going to work with the incompetent clowns we have as government now!
Post by Firu
Either way, where's the money?
Firu
2021-09-27 21:14:35 UTC
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Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Might be time to have a new health minister or get him some new, more
honest, officials?
Honest Ministers would be nice. But Ministers who are actually capable of ensuring the necessary changes would be nice. I can see a major disaster coming in health in New Zealand (along with several other ministry's) with the rush to central control. It didn't work in the Soviet Union and sure ain't going to work with the incompetent clowns we have as government now!
Health is really in the spotlight these days worldwide.

This harsh light has shown how marginal the health services are. They
are now pared back to the minimum and have no hope of reacting to, let
alone coping with, anything over the everyday levels of illness.

Monetising health care around the world has been shown time and again to
be ineffective and expensive. The US system is just a huge money making
opportunity for the few to make money. In Ireland the national maternity
service was nearly handed over to a religious order who hadn't dealt
with previous abuse allegations against pregnant women.

We all know the problems with the fragmented and disjointed NZ system.
So it's going to be reorganised. If it's run like the UK NHS, top down
and under political control, it will be monolithic and overly
bureaucratic. Even more so when we'll be running a second health service
for the Maori population. This is simply stupid on both a financial and
a Maori rights stand point, creating yet more division rather that
integration.

Sorting out blatant discrimination would be more worthwhile and might
end up benefiting more than just health outcomes.

Now we need two ministers and officials with the balls to do the jobs!
BR
2021-09-28 04:01:56 UTC
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Post by Firu
Monetising health care around the world has been shown time and again to
be ineffective and expensive.
Is health care a human right or a commodity?

Bill.
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Firu
2021-10-01 12:29:24 UTC
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Post by BR
Post by Firu
Monetising health care around the world has been shown time and again to
be ineffective and expensive.
Is health care a human right or a commodity?
Bill.
Another one of your weird questions. But WTF, here goes....

It could be argues that GOOD health is a human right. Health care is
something else altogether.

Health care provision should never be a commodity which implies
something to be traded and profited from. Down this road lies the $20
asprin.
BR
2021-10-02 00:15:33 UTC
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Post by Firu
Post by BR
Post by Firu
Monetising health care around the world has been shown time and again to
be ineffective and expensive.
Is health care a human right or a commodity?
Bill.
Another one of your weird questions. But WTF, here goes....
It could be argues that GOOD health is a human right. Health care is
something else altogether.
Health care provision should never be a commodity
So if it isn't a commodity, what is it? Is it a human right, or
something else?
Post by Firu
which implies something to be traded and profited from.
Human rights such as freedom of expression are inalienable. Healthcare
has to be paid for.
Post by Firu
Down this road lies the $20 asprin.
$20 aspirin? Really? The only cost is manufacturing and
distribution.You can buy them in the supermarket at about 30 cents
each. In places like the Soviet Union it might have cost $20, if it
were even available.

Bill.
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This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Firu
2021-10-02 09:18:22 UTC
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Post by BR
Post by Firu
Post by BR
Post by Firu
Monetising health care around the world has been shown time and again to
be ineffective and expensive.
Is health care a human right or a commodity?
Bill.
Another one of your weird questions. But WTF, here goes....
It could be argues that GOOD health is a human right. Health care is
something else altogether.
Health care provision should never be a commodity
So if it isn't a commodity, what is it? Is it a human right, or
something else?
I'd have to go with something else. Maybe part of a social contract?
Government says you pay taxes we provide 'free' healthcare? But Just for
the clarity, HEALTHCARE SHOULD NOT BE A FOR PROFIT ACTIVITY!. S0 not a
commodity ↓↓↓↓↓↓
Post by BR
Post by Firu
which implies something to be traded and profited from.
Human rights such as freedom of expression are inalienable. Healthcare
has to be paid for.
Healthcare is always paid for. Either from general taxation, a health
levy or private insurance.

The argument here isn't anything to do with political axe grinding,
philosophical or existential arguments or even political dogma. It's
about getting the best value for money in healthcare provision. The
existing NZ system is pretty poor in this respect. The proposed system
has the potential to do better. And it could be better still.
Post by BR
Post by Firu
Down this road lies the $20 asprin.
$20 aspirin? Really? The only cost is manufacturing and
distribution.You can buy them in the supermarket at about 30 cents
each. In places like the Soviet Union it might have cost $20, if it
were even available.
The $20 aspirin has nothing to do with the Soviet Union (Which doesn't
exist any more) and more to do with the US insurance based healthcare
system. Mark-ups in the US system are the highest in the world, 300 to
400% is nor unususal. 400% price increases are not unknown either.
Post by BR
Bill.
Crash
2021-10-02 01:35:46 UTC
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Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Might be time to have a new health minister or get him some new, more
honest, officials?
Honest Ministers would be nice. But Ministers who are actually capable of ensuring the necessary changes would be nice. I can see a major disaster coming in health in New Zealand (along with several other ministry's) with the rush to central control. It didn't work in the Soviet Union and sure ain't going to work with the incompetent clowns we have as government now!
Health is really in the spotlight these days worldwide.
This harsh light has shown how marginal the health services are. They
are now pared back to the minimum and have no hope of reacting to, let
alone coping with, anything over the everyday levels of illness.
Monetising health care around the world has been shown time and again to
be ineffective and expensive. The US system is just a huge money making
opportunity for the few to make money. In Ireland the national maternity
service was nearly handed over to a religious order who hadn't dealt
with previous abuse allegations against pregnant women.
We all know the problems with the fragmented and disjointed NZ system.
So it's going to be reorganised. If it's run like the UK NHS, top down
and under political control, it will be monolithic and overly
bureaucratic. Even more so when we'll be running a second health service
for the Maori population. This is simply stupid on both a financial and
a Maori rights stand point, creating yet more division rather that
integration.
Sorting out blatant discrimination would be more worthwhile and might
end up benefiting more than just health outcomes.
Now we need two ministers and officials with the balls to do the jobs!
Here is a summary of the way health services have been delivered in
NZ. Note that there is a 5-paragraph summary at the beginning.

https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/research-papers/document/00PLSocRP09031/new-zealand-health-system-reforms

This is the current restructure plan:

https://dpmc.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2021-04/heallth-reform-white-paper-summary-apr21.pdf

While there is still provision for health to be administered at a
regional level, the new model eliminates the overheads of every DHB
having its own management structure - so as long as there is some
accountability for delivery of services in each region, the new
structure is less top-heavy at the equivalent of DHB level.


--
Crash McBash
Rich80105
2021-10-02 02:12:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Crash
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Might be time to have a new health minister or get him some new, more
honest, officials?
Honest Ministers would be nice. But Ministers who are actually capable of ensuring the necessary changes would be nice. I can see a major disaster coming in health in New Zealand (along with several other ministry's) with the rush to central control. It didn't work in the Soviet Union and sure ain't going to work with the incompetent clowns we have as government now!
Health is really in the spotlight these days worldwide.
This harsh light has shown how marginal the health services are. They
are now pared back to the minimum and have no hope of reacting to, let
alone coping with, anything over the everyday levels of illness.
Monetising health care around the world has been shown time and again to
be ineffective and expensive. The US system is just a huge money making
opportunity for the few to make money. In Ireland the national maternity
service was nearly handed over to a religious order who hadn't dealt
with previous abuse allegations against pregnant women.
We all know the problems with the fragmented and disjointed NZ system.
So it's going to be reorganised. If it's run like the UK NHS, top down
and under political control, it will be monolithic and overly
bureaucratic. Even more so when we'll be running a second health service
for the Maori population. This is simply stupid on both a financial and
a Maori rights stand point, creating yet more division rather that
integration.
Sorting out blatant discrimination would be more worthwhile and might
end up benefiting more than just health outcomes.
Now we need two ministers and officials with the balls to do the jobs!
Here is a summary of the way health services have been delivered in
NZ. Note that there is a 5-paragraph summary at the beginning.
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/research-papers/document/00PLSocRP09031/new-zealand-health-system-reforms
https://dpmc.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2021-04/heallth-reform-white-paper-summary-apr21.pdf
While there is still provision for health to be administered at a
regional level, the new model eliminates the overheads of every DHB
having its own management structure - so as long as there is some
accountability for delivery of services in each region, the new
structure is less top-heavy at the equivalent of DHB level.
And here's some old thoughts being put fowrd again . . .
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/fund-human-healthcare-like-veterinary-care
John Bowes
2021-10-02 03:42:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Crash
Post by Firu
Post by John Bowes
Post by Firu
Might be time to have a new health minister or get him some new, more
honest, officials?
Honest Ministers would be nice. But Ministers who are actually capable of ensuring the necessary changes would be nice. I can see a major disaster coming in health in New Zealand (along with several other ministry's) with the rush to central control. It didn't work in the Soviet Union and sure ain't going to work with the incompetent clowns we have as government now!
Health is really in the spotlight these days worldwide.
This harsh light has shown how marginal the health services are. They
are now pared back to the minimum and have no hope of reacting to, let
alone coping with, anything over the everyday levels of illness.
Monetising health care around the world has been shown time and again to
be ineffective and expensive. The US system is just a huge money making
opportunity for the few to make money. In Ireland the national maternity
service was nearly handed over to a religious order who hadn't dealt
with previous abuse allegations against pregnant women.
We all know the problems with the fragmented and disjointed NZ system.
So it's going to be reorganised. If it's run like the UK NHS, top down
and under political control, it will be monolithic and overly
bureaucratic. Even more so when we'll be running a second health service
for the Maori population. This is simply stupid on both a financial and
a Maori rights stand point, creating yet more division rather that
integration.
Sorting out blatant discrimination would be more worthwhile and might
end up benefiting more than just health outcomes.
Now we need two ministers and officials with the balls to do the jobs!
Here is a summary of the way health services have been delivered in
NZ. Note that there is a 5-paragraph summary at the beginning.
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/research-papers/document/00PLSocRP09031/new-zealand-health-system-reforms
https://dpmc.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2021-04/heallth-reform-white-paper-summary-apr21.pdf
While there is still provision for health to be administered at a
regional level, the new model eliminates the overheads of every DHB
having its own management structure - so as long as there is some
accountability for delivery of services in each region, the new
structure is less top-heavy at the equivalent of DHB level.
And here's some old thoughts being put fowrd again . . .
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/fund-human-healthcare-like-veterinary-care
Get back on topic rich prick! It's about the hole Ardern has overseen in mental health! Vets aren't run by the government which probably explains the lack of waiting lists...
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