Discussion:
NZ Athletes must boycott the 2008 Olympics in China
(too old to reply)
Clone Gunman
2004-10-11 10:18:16 UTC
Permalink
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.

http://no2008china.tripod.com
Merv
2004-10-11 12:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?

Merv
James
2004-10-11 21:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Merv
Much easier to boycott games than to win medals.
Bill Moore
2004-10-11 22:14:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by James
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Merv
Much easier to boycott games than to win medals.
The US boycott of the USSR games in 1980 was far from
easy for the athletes who had trained so hard.
tom
2004-10-11 23:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Moore
Post by James
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Merv
Much easier to boycott games than to win medals.
The US boycott of the USSR games in 1980 was far from
easy for the athletes who had trained so hard.
NZ ain't the USA.
Bill Moore
2004-10-12 00:15:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by tom
Post by Bill Moore
Post by James
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Merv
Much easier to boycott games than to win medals.
The US boycott of the USSR games in 1980 was far from
easy for the athletes who had trained so hard.
NZ ain't the USA.
Its athletes don't train hard?
tom
2004-10-12 03:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Moore
Post by tom
Post by Bill Moore
Post by James
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Merv
Much easier to boycott games than to win medals.
The US boycott of the USSR games in 1980 was far from
easy for the athletes who had trained so hard.
NZ ain't the USA.
Its athletes don't train hard?
No, they mainly just lack talent.
Brian Damage
2004-10-12 00:29:51 UTC
Permalink
It is always the ones that hate the Chinese most pushing for "free"
Tibet. Tibet was part of China before Imperial Britain took over NZ
from the natives. Naziland is probably the most racist against
non-whites when compared to other ex white dominated colonies.

If I were you, I would worry about the yellow peril that is supposedly
sweeping your Naziland according to your MPs and that Winston fella.
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Merv
Bill Moore
2004-10-12 03:51:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Damage
It is always the ones that hate the Chinese most pushing for "free"
Tibet.
Only in your drug-addled little mind.

You can't blast the Americans while dismissing Chinese
atrocities. They both suck.
Post by Brian Damage
Tibet was part of China before Imperial Britain took over NZ
from the natives. Naziland is probably the most racist against
non-whites when compared to other ex white dominated colonies.
If I were you, I would worry about the yellow peril that is supposedly
sweeping your Naziland according to your MPs and that Winston fella.
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Merv
Brian Damage
2004-10-12 20:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Bill, the difference is that I am defending the Chinese people and
culture and that gives me the right to blast the hypocrits like you
out there. You however is the typical national socialist that usually
thought he is a hippie for world peace. When it comes down to it, you
are just another eurocentric hypocrit.

The result of what you see today in China and the rest of the Chinese
world is partly the direct result of your ancestor's racialist point
of view a century ago. National borders were drawn at the whim of the
european imperialists without considering the after effect. Cultures
were looted and raped because they were seen an inferior....The list
goes on and on. Up to only few years ago, Europeans still testing
nuclear weapons on Pacific islands because they "owned" it. Autralia
only recently relaxed its white only immigration(1973) but cultural it
is still very much whites only. NZ with its dwindling economic status
tries to attract talents and money into the country but due to current
world political climate, it can't just attract
white people vene though the local whites hate Chinamen and other
non-whites because of the longstanding white supremacy in NZ.



And.....I don't blast the US on everything except Tibet(natioanl
socialist invention) and Neo-Con rhetorcs. I would rather Bush gets
elected. Atl east i don;t get that "lower expectation' from a Repub.
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Brian Damage
It is always the ones that hate the Chinese most pushing for "free"
Tibet.
Only in your drug-addled little mind.
You can't blast the Americans while dismissing Chinese
atrocities. They both suck.
Post by Brian Damage
Tibet was part of China before Imperial Britain took over NZ
from the natives. Naziland is probably the most racist against
non-whites when compared to other ex white dominated colonies.
If I were you, I would worry about the yellow peril that is supposedly
sweeping your Naziland according to your MPs and that Winston fella.
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Merv
Bill Moore
2004-10-12 21:41:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Damage
Bill, the difference is that I am defending the Chinese people and
culture and that gives me the right to blast the hypocrits like you
out there. You however is the typical national socialist that usually
thought he is a hippie for world peace. When it comes down to it, you
are just another eurocentric hypocrit.
In fact, it is you who are stuck in a rut rattling off the
same old idiotic stereotypes. You think that people who
criticize the Chinese government don't understand China
and must be afraid of some "yellow peril". And when the likes
of Yu and Lee spout even the most absurd shit you remain silent
and then tell me I'm a hypocrite. You don't know a thing about
my ancestors but you moronically babble as though they were
personally selling opium to your ancestors.

I don't know what you're smoking, but you are obviously the hypocrite
and fool here. But it's OK, I understand how your bitter anger keeps
you from seeing things rationally.
Post by Brian Damage
The result of what you see today in China and the rest of the Chinese
world is partly the direct result of your ancestor's racialist point
of view a century ago. National borders were drawn at the whim of the
european imperialists without considering the after effect. Cultures
were looted and raped because they were seen an inferior....The list
goes on and on. Up to only few years ago, Europeans still testing
nuclear weapons on Pacific islands because they "owned" it. Autralia
only recently relaxed its white only immigration(1973) but cultural it
is still very much whites only. NZ with its dwindling economic status
tries to attract talents and money into the country but due to current
world political climate, it can't just attract
white people vene though the local whites hate Chinamen and other
non-whites because of the longstanding white supremacy in NZ.
And.....I don't blast the US on everything except Tibet(natioanl
socialist invention) and Neo-Con rhetorcs. I would rather Bush gets
elected. Atl east i don;t get that "lower expectation' from a Repub.
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Brian Damage
It is always the ones that hate the Chinese most pushing for "free"
Tibet.
Only in your drug-addled little mind.
You can't blast the Americans while dismissing Chinese
atrocities. They both suck.
Post by Brian Damage
Tibet was part of China before Imperial Britain took over NZ
from the natives. Naziland is probably the most racist against
non-whites when compared to other ex white dominated colonies.
If I were you, I would worry about the yellow peril that is supposedly
sweeping your Naziland according to your MPs and that Winston fella.
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Merv
LT Lee
2004-10-13 18:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Brian Damage
Bill, the difference is that I am defending the Chinese people and
culture and that gives me the right to blast the hypocrits like you
out there. You however is the typical national socialist that usually
thought he is a hippie for world peace. When it comes down to it, you
are just another eurocentric hypocrit.
In fact, it is you who are stuck in a rut rattling off the
same old idiotic stereotypes. You think that people who
criticize the Chinese government don't understand China
and must be afraid of some "yellow peril".
I won't say everyone is like that. However, it is save to say that
most people who criticize the Chinese governemnt don't understand
China and Chinese enough. Their criticism largely reflect their own
problems which come in many shapes and forms. Afraid of "yellow peril"
is one of them. After all, it was not the Chinese who coined the word
"yellow peril."
Post by Bill Moore
And when the likes
of Yu and Lee spout even the most absurd shit you remain silent
and then tell me I'm a hypocrite. You don't know a thing about
my ancestors but you moronically babble as though they were
personally selling opium to your ancestors.
It is quite difficult to determine to one's ancestor over the
internet. Of course, you can choose to clarify if you find it an
important issue. However, whether other readers want to believe you is
another issue.

Just curious. Since you bring it up, may I ask how do you establish
the fact that your ancestors did not personally sold opium to the
other netters' ancestors or anyone else? Of course, you are under no
obligation to answer.
Post by Bill Moore
I don't know what you're smoking, but you are obviously the hypocrite
and fool here. But it's OK, I understand how your bitter anger keeps
you from seeing things rationally.
Post by Brian Damage
The result of what you see today in China and the rest of the Chinese
world is partly the direct result of your ancestor's racialist point
of view a century ago. National borders were drawn at the whim of the
european imperialists without considering the after effect. Cultures
were looted and raped because they were seen an inferior....The list
goes on and on. Up to only few years ago, Europeans still testing
nuclear weapons on Pacific islands because they "owned" it. Autralia
only recently relaxed its white only immigration(1973) but cultural it
is still very much whites only. NZ with its dwindling economic status
tries to attract talents and money into the country but due to current
world political climate, it can't just attract
white people vene though the local whites hate Chinamen and other
non-whites because of the longstanding white supremacy in NZ.
And.....I don't blast the US on everything except Tibet(natioanl
socialist invention) and Neo-Con rhetorcs. I would rather Bush gets
elected. Atl east i don;t get that "lower expectation' from a Repub.
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Brian Damage
It is always the ones that hate the Chinese most pushing for "free"
Tibet.
Only in your drug-addled little mind.
You can't blast the Americans while dismissing Chinese
atrocities. They both suck.
Post by Brian Damage
Tibet was part of China before Imperial Britain took over NZ
from the natives. Naziland is probably the most racist against
non-whites when compared to other ex white dominated colonies.
If I were you, I would worry about the yellow peril that is supposedly
sweeping your Naziland according to your MPs and that Winston fella.
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Merv
Bill Moore
2004-10-13 18:28:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Brian Damage
Bill, the difference is that I am defending the Chinese people and
culture and that gives me the right to blast the hypocrits like you
out there. You however is the typical national socialist that usually
thought he is a hippie for world peace. When it comes down to it, you
are just another eurocentric hypocrit.
In fact, it is you who are stuck in a rut rattling off the
same old idiotic stereotypes. You think that people who
criticize the Chinese government don't understand China
and must be afraid of some "yellow peril".
I won't say everyone is like that. However, it is save to say that
most people who criticize the Chinese governemnt don't understand
China and Chinese enough. Their criticism largely reflect their own
problems which come in many shapes and forms. Afraid of "yellow peril"
is one of them. After all, it was not the Chinese who coined the word
"yellow peril."
Post by Bill Moore
And when the likes
of Yu and Lee spout even the most absurd shit you remain silent
and then tell me I'm a hypocrite. You don't know a thing about
my ancestors but you moronically babble as though they were
personally selling opium to your ancestors.
It is quite difficult to determine to one's ancestor over the
internet. Of course, you can choose to clarify if you find it an
important issue. However, whether other readers want to believe you is
another issue.
Just curious. Since you bring it up, may I ask how do you establish
the fact that your ancestors did not personally sold opium to the
other netters' ancestors or anyone else? Of course, you are under no
obligation to answer.
Why don't you ask the OP to prove the accusation? Why is it up
to me to refute the silly accusation? Are you nuts?
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
I don't know what you're smoking, but you are obviously the hypocrite
and fool here. But it's OK, I understand how your bitter anger keeps
you from seeing things rationally.
Post by Brian Damage
The result of what you see today in China and the rest of the Chinese
world is partly the direct result of your ancestor's racialist point
of view a century ago. National borders were drawn at the whim of the
european imperialists without considering the after effect. Cultures
were looted and raped because they were seen an inferior....The list
goes on and on. Up to only few years ago, Europeans still testing
nuclear weapons on Pacific islands because they "owned" it. Autralia
only recently relaxed its white only immigration(1973) but cultural it
is still very much whites only. NZ with its dwindling economic status
tries to attract talents and money into the country but due to current
world political climate, it can't just attract
white people vene though the local whites hate Chinamen and other
non-whites because of the longstanding white supremacy in NZ.
And.....I don't blast the US on everything except Tibet(natioanl
socialist invention) and Neo-Con rhetorcs. I would rather Bush gets
elected. Atl east i don;t get that "lower expectation' from a Repub.
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Brian Damage
It is always the ones that hate the Chinese most pushing for "free"
Tibet.
Only in your drug-addled little mind.
You can't blast the Americans while dismissing Chinese
atrocities. They both suck.
Post by Brian Damage
Tibet was part of China before Imperial Britain took over NZ
from the natives. Naziland is probably the most racist against
non-whites when compared to other ex white dominated colonies.
If I were you, I would worry about the yellow peril that is supposedly
sweeping your Naziland according to your MPs and that Winston fella.
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Merv
LT Lee
2004-10-14 13:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Moore
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Brian Damage
Bill, the difference is that I am defending the Chinese people and
culture and that gives me the right to blast the hypocrits like you
out there. You however is the typical national socialist that usually
thought he is a hippie for world peace. When it comes down to it, you
are just another eurocentric hypocrit.
In fact, it is you who are stuck in a rut rattling off the
same old idiotic stereotypes. You think that people who
criticize the Chinese government don't understand China
and must be afraid of some "yellow peril".
I won't say everyone is like that. However, it is save to say that
most people who criticize the Chinese governemnt don't understand
China and Chinese enough. Their criticism largely reflect their own
problems which come in many shapes and forms. Afraid of "yellow peril"
is one of them. After all, it was not the Chinese who coined the word
"yellow peril."
Post by Bill Moore
And when the likes
of Yu and Lee spout even the most absurd shit you remain silent
and then tell me I'm a hypocrite. You don't know a thing about
my ancestors but you moronically babble as though they were
personally selling opium to your ancestors.
It is quite difficult to determine to one's ancestor over the
internet. Of course, you can choose to clarify if you find it an
important issue. However, whether other readers want to believe you is
another issue.
Just curious. Since you bring it up, may I ask how do you establish
the fact that your ancestors did not personally sold opium to the
other netters' ancestors or anyone else? Of course, you are under no
obligation to answer.
Why don't you ask the OP to prove the accusation? Why is it up
to me to refute the silly accusation? Are you nuts?
I think you are the only one who made your ancestors not selling opium an issue.
Post by Bill Moore
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
I don't know what you're smoking, but you are obviously the hypocrite
and fool here. But it's OK, I understand how your bitter anger keeps
you from seeing things rationally.
Post by Brian Damage
The result of what you see today in China and the rest of the Chinese
world is partly the direct result of your ancestor's racialist point
of view a century ago. National borders were drawn at the whim of the
european imperialists without considering the after effect. Cultures
were looted and raped because they were seen an inferior....The list
goes on and on. Up to only few years ago, Europeans still testing
nuclear weapons on Pacific islands because they "owned" it. Autralia
only recently relaxed its white only immigration(1973) but cultural it
is still very much whites only. NZ with its dwindling economic status
tries to attract talents and money into the country but due to current
world political climate, it can't just attract
white people vene though the local whites hate Chinamen and other
non-whites because of the longstanding white supremacy in NZ.
And.....I don't blast the US on everything except Tibet(natioanl
socialist invention) and Neo-Con rhetorcs. I would rather Bush gets
elected. Atl east i don;t get that "lower expectation' from a Repub.
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Brian Damage
It is always the ones that hate the Chinese most pushing for "free"
Tibet.
Only in your drug-addled little mind.
You can't blast the Americans while dismissing Chinese
atrocities. They both suck.
Post by Brian Damage
Tibet was part of China before Imperial Britain took over NZ
from the natives. Naziland is probably the most racist against
non-whites when compared to other ex white dominated colonies.
If I were you, I would worry about the yellow peril that is supposedly
sweeping your Naziland according to your MPs and that Winston fella.
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Merv
Harold Buck
2004-10-14 15:07:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
Why don't you ask the OP to prove the accusation? Why is it up
to me to refute the silly accusation? Are you nuts?
I think you are the only one who made your ancestors not selling opium an issue.
Dude, learn how to trim the quoted text. Geez.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
LT Lee
2004-10-14 22:13:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harold Buck
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
Why don't you ask the OP to prove the accusation? Why is it up
to me to refute the silly accusation? Are you nuts?
I think you are the only one who made your ancestors not selling opium an issue.
Dude, learn how to trim the quoted text. Geez.
Thank you for the advice.
However, not trimming also has its advantage in making it clearer who
had written what.
Post by Harold Buck
--Harold Buck
"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson
Tarla
2004-10-15 03:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
Post by Harold Buck
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
Why don't you ask the OP to prove the accusation? Why is it up
to me to refute the silly accusation? Are you nuts?
I think you are the only one who made your ancestors not selling opium an issue.
Dude, learn how to trim the quoted text. Geez.
Thank you for the advice.
However, not trimming also has its advantage in making it clearer who
had written what.
That's what the attributions are for. There's no advantage to not
trimming. It's just rude.

--
Tarla
****
"He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep,
pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon
the heart, and in our own despair, against our will,
comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God."
**Robert F. Kennedy
LT Lee
2004-10-15 17:11:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tarla
Post by LT Lee
Post by Harold Buck
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
Why don't you ask the OP to prove the accusation? Why is it up
to me to refute the silly accusation? Are you nuts?
I think you are the only one who made your ancestors not selling opium an issue.
Dude, learn how to trim the quoted text. Geez.
Thank you for the advice.
However, not trimming also has its advantage in making it clearer who
had written what.
That's what the attributions are for. There's no advantage to not
trimming. It's just rude.
Thank you for your advice.

You have an intriguing quote. I am wondering under what circumstances
did Bob Kennedy wrote that.

"He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep,
pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon
the heart, and in our own despair, against our will,
comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God."
**Robert F. Kennedy

But I also wonder whether his kind of thinking can stand the
challenges from Buddhism and from Existentialism.
Guru Google
2004-10-23 23:24:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
Post by Tarla
Post by LT Lee
Thank you for the advice.
However, not trimming also has its advantage in making it clearer who
had written what.
That's what the attributions are for. There's no advantage to not
trimming. It's just rude.
Thank you for your advice.
You have an intriguing quote. I am wondering under what circumstances
did Bob Kennedy wrote that.
"He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep,
pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon
the heart, and in our own despair, against our will,
comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God."
**Robert F. Kennedy
But I also wonder whether his kind of thinking can stand the
challenges from Buddhism and from Existentialism.
It's interesting when LT Lee, the man always defend CCP and criticize
USA democracy in soc.culture.china, wanna test Kennedy's thinking with
Buddhism and Existentialism rather than communism.
Bill Moore
2004-10-14 16:24:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
Post by LT Lee
Just curious. Since you bring it up, may I ask how do you establish
the fact that your ancestors did not personally sold opium to the
other netters' ancestors or anyone else? Of course, you are under no
obligation to answer.
Why don't you ask the OP to prove the accusation? Why is it up
to me to refute the silly accusation? Are you nuts?
I think you are the only one who made your ancestors not selling opium an issue.
Mr. Lee, you are being deceptive. Again. Shame on you.

The OP attacked me for some notion that my ancestors' attitudes
are part of the reason the CCP tortures its citizens. I responded
that he was acting like my ancestors personally sold opium to his.

Then, incredibly, you asked to me to prove that my ancestors *didn't*
sell his ancestors opium. You're either being a jerk or you're nuts.

Is it possible to have conversation with you where you *don't* try
some dishonest tactic?

Oh, and when did you stop beating your wife?
LT Lee
2004-10-14 22:31:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Moore
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
Post by LT Lee
Just curious. Since you bring it up, may I ask how do you establish
the fact that your ancestors did not personally sold opium to the
other netters' ancestors or anyone else? Of course, you are under no
obligation to answer.
Why don't you ask the OP to prove the accusation? Why is it up
to me to refute the silly accusation? Are you nuts?
I think you are the only one who made your ancestors not selling opium an issue.
Mr. Lee, you are being deceptive. Again. Shame on you.
I don't think I am trying to be deceptive at all. Why would I do that.
Post by Bill Moore
The OP attacked me for some notion that my ancestors' attitudes
are part of the reason the CCP tortures its citizens. I responded
that he was acting like my ancestors personally sold opium to his.
I read his post, the gist of the attack is cut and pasted for your
convenience.

"The result of what you see today in China and the rest of the Chinese
world is partly the direct result of your ancestor's racialist point
of view a century ago."

I don't see any mention of your ancestors selling opium.
Post by Bill Moore
Then, incredibly, you asked to me to prove that my ancestors *didn't*
sell his ancestors opium. You're either being a jerk or you're nuts.
No. I did not ask you to prove anything. Given the fact that opium
selling occured at about 200 years ago which is equivalent to 8 to 10
generations ago, I am just curious how do you establish that fact. For
example, if you come from a well known family, such fact could then be
readily established. In contrast, one's ancestors 8 to 10 generations
back could be difficult to establish, let alone what they did or did
not do.
Post by Bill Moore
Is it possible to have conversation with you where you *don't* try
some dishonest tactic?
Whether to converse with me is your choice. Internet is a great tool
to improve intercultural exchanges if one uses it wisely.
Post by Bill Moore
Oh, and when did you stop beating your wife?
Bill Moore
2004-10-14 23:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
Post by LT Lee
Just curious. Since you bring it up, may I ask how do you establish
the fact that your ancestors did not personally sold opium to the
other netters' ancestors or anyone else? Of course, you are under no
obligation to answer.
Why don't you ask the OP to prove the accusation? Why is it up
to me to refute the silly accusation? Are you nuts?
I think you are the only one who made your ancestors not selling opium an issue.
Mr. Lee, you are being deceptive. Again. Shame on you.
I don't think I am trying to be deceptive at all. Why would I do that.
Post by Bill Moore
The OP attacked me for some notion that my ancestors' attitudes
are part of the reason the CCP tortures its citizens. I responded
that he was acting like my ancestors personally sold opium to his.
I read his post, the gist of the attack is cut and pasted for your
convenience.
"The result of what you see today in China and the rest of the Chinese
world is partly the direct result of your ancestor's racialist point
of view a century ago."
I don't see any mention of your ancestors selling opium.
You are being obtuse. Maybe it's a language problem.
I know you feel you are always right about everything,
but this time, as usual, you're just confused.
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
Then, incredibly, you asked to me to prove that my ancestors *didn't*
sell his ancestors opium. You're either being a jerk or you're nuts.
No. I did not ask you to prove anything. Given the fact that opium
selling occured at about 200 years ago which is equivalent to 8 to 10
generations ago, I am just curious how do you establish that fact. For
example, if you come from a well known family, such fact could then be
readily established. In contrast, one's ancestors 8 to 10 generations
back could be difficult to establish, let alone what they did or did
not do.
I see, you have been *smoking* opium.

My ancestors were Chinese. How could they be selling opium?
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
Is it possible to have conversation with you where you *don't* try
some dishonest tactic?
Whether to converse with me is your choice. Internet is a great tool
to improve intercultural exchanges if one uses it wisely.
Post by Bill Moore
Oh, and when did you stop beating your wife?
Tarla
2004-10-14 19:31:47 UTC
Permalink
On 14 Oct 2004 06:14:04 -0700, ***@hotmail.com (LT Lee) wrote:

Fucking Christ, if you have to pester us with this shit, can you at
least learn to trim a post?

--
Tarla
****
dance like it hurts
love like you need the money
work when people are watching
Brian Damage
2004-10-15 03:59:13 UTC
Permalink
You can say all you want Bill but the truth of the fact is the world's
resources (human or not) are being used by the eurocentrics because of
the status quo that was attained by force decades ago. To complain
about China and anything else Chinese through manufactured propoganda
only shows how hypocritical you are. China has no military projections
outside China. The Chinese Diaspora living in various countries do not
have any political or military power but sheer hardwork and
discipline. They do not control the world media that continues to
spew anti-Chinese people propaganda from propogating the usual ugly
Chinese stereotypes to evil China.

We need more people like Yu and Lee because we don't have enough
people that cares about their own people and let the others push them
around like Chinamen coolies of old. We need to speak up more and
stop gunning for instant gain by selling out.


And Tibet is not a legit issue no matter how you twist it. The most
laughable thing is we also got people from Naziland crying Free
Tibet.. That's funny. Must be the free concerts and cool hippie
chicks thingy. Naziland is one of the most racist ex Brit colony on
earth next to Australia.


What you want me to smoke? Opium?
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Brian Damage
Bill, the difference is that I am defending the Chinese people and
culture and that gives me the right to blast the hypocrits like you
out there. You however is the typical national socialist that usually
thought he is a hippie for world peace. When it comes down to it, you
are just another eurocentric hypocrit.
In fact, it is you who are stuck in a rut rattling off the
same old idiotic stereotypes. You think that people who
criticize the Chinese government don't understand China
and must be afraid of some "yellow peril". And when the likes
of Yu and Lee spout even the most absurd shit you remain silent
and then tell me I'm a hypocrite. You don't know a thing about
my ancestors but you moronically babble as though they were
personally selling opium to your ancestors.
I don't know what you're smoking, but you are obviously the hypocrite
and fool here. But it's OK, I understand how your bitter anger keeps
you from seeing things rationally.
Post by Brian Damage
The result of what you see today in China and the rest of the Chinese
world is partly the direct result of your ancestor's racialist point
of view a century ago. National borders were drawn at the whim of the
european imperialists without considering the after effect. Cultures
were looted and raped because they were seen an inferior....The list
goes on and on. Up to only few years ago, Europeans still testing
nuclear weapons on Pacific islands because they "owned" it. Autralia
only recently relaxed its white only immigration(1973) but cultural it
is still very much whites only. NZ with its dwindling economic status
tries to attract talents and money into the country but due to current
world political climate, it can't just attract
white people vene though the local whites hate Chinamen and other
non-whites because of the longstanding white supremacy in NZ.
And.....I don't blast the US on everything except Tibet(natioanl
socialist invention) and Neo-Con rhetorcs. I would rather Bush gets
elected. Atl east i don;t get that "lower expectation' from a Repub.
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Brian Damage
It is always the ones that hate the Chinese most pushing for "free"
Tibet.
Only in your drug-addled little mind.
You can't blast the Americans while dismissing Chinese
atrocities. They both suck.
Post by Brian Damage
Tibet was part of China before Imperial Britain took over NZ
from the natives. Naziland is probably the most racist against
non-whites when compared to other ex white dominated colonies.
If I were you, I would worry about the yellow peril that is supposedly
sweeping your Naziland according to your MPs and that Winston fella.
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Merv
Bill Moore
2004-10-15 16:39:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Damage
You can say all you want Bill but the truth of the fact is the world's
Truth? The truth is simple. China has improved a lot. But as long as
liars like Lee and Yu lie, their bullshit needs to be called.

Maybe you like to ignore their blatant lies and attack me instead.
That says something about you, not me.
Post by Brian Damage
resources (human or not) are being used by the eurocentrics because of
the status quo that was attained by force decades ago. To complain
about China and anything else Chinese through manufactured propoganda
only shows how hypocritical you are. China has no military projections
outside China. The Chinese Diaspora living in various countries do not
have any political or military power but sheer hardwork and
discipline. They do not control the world media that continues to
spew anti-Chinese people propaganda from propogating the usual ugly
Chinese stereotypes to evil China.
We need more people like Yu and Lee because we don't have enough
people that cares about their own people and let the others push them
They have degrees in "pretending". You think that is good?
We need people to stand up for themselves, yes. but these guys
do it by being super-deceitful. That's *bad* for China's cause,
not good.
Post by Brian Damage
around like Chinamen coolies of old. We need to speak up more and
stop gunning for instant gain by selling out.
And Tibet is not a legit issue no matter how you twist it.
Wrong. Torture of innocent people is an issue. Duh. No question.
If you don't care about it, or want to twist in into an
imperialist thing that's your business. You're still wrong,
no matter what you say. I'm not saying "Free Tibet", I'm saying
the torture is real and is bad. Yu and Lee say there is no
torture. And you're on their side?
Post by Brian Damage
The most
laughable thing is we also got people from Naziland crying Free
Tibet.. That's funny. Must be the free concerts and cool hippie
chicks thingy. Naziland is one of the most racist ex Brit colony on
earth next to Australia.
You have a funny obsession with "hippies".
Post by Brian Damage
What you want me to smoke? Opium?
Oh, no! I'm the big bad white guy continuing the abuse started
by my ancestors!

Your shtick is getting real old. I'll bet you think most white
people look at you funny because you're Chinese. Poor, victimized
you.
Post by Brian Damage
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Brian Damage
Bill, the difference is that I am defending the Chinese people and
culture and that gives me the right to blast the hypocrits like you
out there. You however is the typical national socialist that usually
thought he is a hippie for world peace. When it comes down to it, you
are just another eurocentric hypocrit.
In fact, it is you who are stuck in a rut rattling off the
same old idiotic stereotypes. You think that people who
criticize the Chinese government don't understand China
and must be afraid of some "yellow peril". And when the likes
of Yu and Lee spout even the most absurd shit you remain silent
and then tell me I'm a hypocrite. You don't know a thing about
my ancestors but you moronically babble as though they were
personally selling opium to your ancestors.
I don't know what you're smoking, but you are obviously the hypocrite
and fool here. But it's OK, I understand how your bitter anger keeps
you from seeing things rationally.
Post by Brian Damage
The result of what you see today in China and the rest of the Chinese
world is partly the direct result of your ancestor's racialist point
of view a century ago. National borders were drawn at the whim of the
european imperialists without considering the after effect. Cultures
were looted and raped because they were seen an inferior....The list
goes on and on. Up to only few years ago, Europeans still testing
nuclear weapons on Pacific islands because they "owned" it. Autralia
only recently relaxed its white only immigration(1973) but cultural it
is still very much whites only. NZ with its dwindling economic status
tries to attract talents and money into the country but due to current
world political climate, it can't just attract
white people vene though the local whites hate Chinamen and other
non-whites because of the longstanding white supremacy in NZ.
And.....I don't blast the US on everything except Tibet(natioanl
socialist invention) and Neo-Con rhetorcs. I would rather Bush gets
elected. Atl east i don;t get that "lower expectation' from a Repub.
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Brian Damage
It is always the ones that hate the Chinese most pushing for "free"
Tibet.
Only in your drug-addled little mind.
You can't blast the Americans while dismissing Chinese
atrocities. They both suck.
Post by Brian Damage
Tibet was part of China before Imperial Britain took over NZ
from the natives. Naziland is probably the most racist against
non-whites when compared to other ex white dominated colonies.
If I were you, I would worry about the yellow peril that is supposedly
sweeping your Naziland according to your MPs and that Winston fella.
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Merv
RT
2004-10-11 13:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merv
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Hmmmm. So NZ actually competes in the Olympics?
Yair. Nuclear banning, sending murdurous French secret agents to resort
islands and selling all their airforce on the assumption that Oz will
protect them.
They usually win medals in all 3. Notta lotta competition
though...........
Natman
2004-10-12 00:38:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
I don't have the slightest sympathy for the way the Chinese have
treated Tibet.

However the Olympics are NOT the place to make your political point.
They are supposed to be a place where political disagreements are put
aside in order to hold worldwide athletic competition. The 1980 and
1984 boycotts were disgraceful wastes that accomplished nothing.

Except in the unlikely event that you yourself are a qualified member
of a 2008 Olympic team, you have no business asking someone ELSE to
sacrifice participating in the Olympics for a political cause YOU
believe in, no matter how worthy.
Yu
2004-10-12 07:39:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Natman
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
I don't have the slightest sympathy for the way the Chinese have
treated Tibet.
However the Olympics are NOT the place to make your political point.
They are supposed to be a place where political disagreements are put
aside in order to hold worldwide athletic competition. The 1980 and
1984 boycotts were disgraceful wastes that accomplished nothing.
Except in the unlikely event that you yourself are a qualified member
of a 2008 Olympic team, you have no business asking someone ELSE to
sacrifice participating in the Olympics for a political cause YOU
believe in, no matter how worthy.
Who are the Tibet activists?
Most of them are whites who live comfortably in the west.
They campaigned to block world bank funding for poverty relieve in western China.
They campaigned for blocking of rail road contruction to Tibet.
Do they ever have to live with the consequence of their campaign?
They want to be super heroes let them do it at home.
They wouldn't lift one finger to help the natives.
Bill Moore
2004-10-12 16:12:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yu
Post by Natman
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
I don't have the slightest sympathy for the way the Chinese have
treated Tibet.
However the Olympics are NOT the place to make your political point.
They are supposed to be a place where political disagreements are put
aside in order to hold worldwide athletic competition. The 1980 and
1984 boycotts were disgraceful wastes that accomplished nothing.
Except in the unlikely event that you yourself are a qualified member
of a 2008 Olympic team, you have no business asking someone ELSE to
sacrifice participating in the Olympics for a political cause YOU
believe in, no matter how worthy.
Who are the Tibet activists?
Most of them are whites who live comfortably in the west.
Sorry Yu, but the previous poster was complaining about politicizing
the Olympics.

That doesn't mean he *supports* the brutality the Communist Chinese
inflict on Tibet that you deny constantly.
Post by Yu
They campaigned to block world bank funding for poverty relieve in western China.
They campaigned for blocking of rail road contruction to Tibet.
Do they ever have to live with the consequence of their campaign?
They want to be super heroes let them do it at home.
They wouldn't lift one finger to help the natives.
Yu
2004-10-13 07:05:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Yu
Post by Natman
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
I don't have the slightest sympathy for the way the Chinese have
treated Tibet.
However the Olympics are NOT the place to make your political point.
They are supposed to be a place where political disagreements are put
aside in order to hold worldwide athletic competition. The 1980 and
1984 boycotts were disgraceful wastes that accomplished nothing.
Except in the unlikely event that you yourself are a qualified member
of a 2008 Olympic team, you have no business asking someone ELSE to
sacrifice participating in the Olympics for a political cause YOU
believe in, no matter how worthy.
Who are the Tibet activists?
Most of them are whites who live comfortably in the west.
Sorry Yu, but the previous poster was complaining about politicizing
the Olympics.
That doesn't mean he *supports* the brutality the Communist Chinese
inflict on Tibet that you deny constantly.
You are one good example of the kind of hypocrit I pointed out in my previous post.
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Yu
They campaigned to block world bank funding for poverty relieve in western China.
They campaigned for blocking of rail road contruction to Tibet.
Do they ever have to live with the consequence of their campaign?
They want to be super heroes let them do it at home.
They wouldn't lift one finger to help the natives.
Bill Moore
2004-10-13 17:50:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yu
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Yu
Post by Natman
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
I don't have the slightest sympathy for the way the Chinese have
treated Tibet.
However the Olympics are NOT the place to make your political point.
They are supposed to be a place where political disagreements are put
aside in order to hold worldwide athletic competition. The 1980 and
1984 boycotts were disgraceful wastes that accomplished nothing.
Except in the unlikely event that you yourself are a qualified member
of a 2008 Olympic team, you have no business asking someone ELSE to
sacrifice participating in the Olympics for a political cause YOU
believe in, no matter how worthy.
Who are the Tibet activists?
Most of them are whites who live comfortably in the west.
Sorry Yu, but the previous poster was complaining about politicizing
the Olympics.
That doesn't mean he *supports* the brutality the Communist Chinese
inflict on Tibet that you deny constantly.
You are one good example of the kind of hypocrit I pointed out in my previous post.
1) You don't know what the word means.

2) Jerks like Yu in the CCP continue to allow Tibetans to be
persecuted, tortured and killed for things like singing songs.
It's true even when you disgustingly deny it.
Post by Yu
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Yu
They campaigned to block world bank funding for poverty relieve in
western China.
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Yu
They campaigned for blocking of rail road contruction to Tibet.
Do they ever have to live with the consequence of their campaign?
They want to be super heroes let them do it at home.
They wouldn't lift one finger to help the natives.
kakariki
2004-10-12 09:36:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Natman
I don't have the slightest sympathy for the way the Chinese have
treated Tibet.
However the Olympics are NOT the place to make your political point.
They are supposed to be a place where political disagreements are put
aside in order to hold worldwide athletic competition. The 1980 and
1984 boycotts were disgraceful wastes that accomplished nothing.
Except in the unlikely event that you yourself are a qualified member
of a 2008 Olympic team, you have no business asking someone ELSE to
sacrifice participating in the Olympics for a political cause YOU
believe in, no matter how worthy.
Yeah, boycotting isn't that effective when you're small and not that
good at winning much. They'd do much more for the cause if they all
went into the opening ceremony flying Free Tibet flags.
LT Lee
2004-10-12 16:55:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Natman
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
I don't have the slightest sympathy for the way the Chinese have
treated Tibet.
Why? What did the Chinese do according to what you know?
Post by Natman
However the Olympics are NOT the place to make your political point.
They are supposed to be a place where political disagreements are put
aside in order to hold worldwide athletic competition. The 1980 and
1984 boycotts were disgraceful wastes that accomplished nothing.
Except in the unlikely event that you yourself are a qualified member
of a 2008 Olympic team, you have no business asking someone ELSE to
sacrifice participating in the Olympics for a political cause YOU
believe in, no matter how worthy.
Bill Moore
2004-10-12 17:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
Post by Natman
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
I don't have the slightest sympathy for the way the Chinese have
treated Tibet.
Why? What did the Chinese do according to what you know?
Oh oh, looks like the propaganda machine is about to start up.
Stand back everyone!
Post by LT Lee
Post by Natman
However the Olympics are NOT the place to make your political point.
They are supposed to be a place where political disagreements are put
aside in order to hold worldwide athletic competition. The 1980 and
1984 boycotts were disgraceful wastes that accomplished nothing.
Except in the unlikely event that you yourself are a qualified member
of a 2008 Olympic team, you have no business asking someone ELSE to
sacrifice participating in the Olympics for a political cause YOU
believe in, no matter how worthy.
Natman
2004-10-12 20:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
Post by Natman
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
I don't have the slightest sympathy for the way the Chinese have
treated Tibet.
Why? What did the Chinese do according to what you know?
My point was NOT to get sucked into an argument about Chinese
policies, but to make a point that calling for Olympic boycotts is not
an appropriate or effective way to protest ANYTHING, regardless of the
merit or lack of merit a particular cause may have.
Post by LT Lee
Post by Natman
However the Olympics are NOT the place to make your political point.
They are supposed to be a place where political disagreements are put
aside in order to hold worldwide athletic competition. The 1980 and
1984 boycotts were disgraceful wastes that accomplished nothing.
Except in the unlikely event that you yourself are a qualified member
of a 2008 Olympic team, you have no business asking someone ELSE to
sacrifice participating in the Olympics for a political cause YOU
believe in, no matter how worthy.
PaPaPeng
2004-10-13 14:39:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Natman
My point was NOT to get sucked into an argument about Chinese
policies, but to make a point that calling for Olympic boycotts is not
an appropriate or effective way to protest ANYTHING, regardless of the
merit or lack of merit a particular cause may have.
The point is why is everyone so easily fooled by the website. Its a
Falunging sponsored tirade claiming to be THE spokesman for New
Zealand. I am sure the New Zealanders are totally unaware of the
FLG's activities. New Zealanders have no intentions to boycott
anything.

Just ignore the claim.
Natman
2004-10-13 16:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaPaPeng
Post by Natman
My point was NOT to get sucked into an argument about Chinese
policies, but to make a point that calling for Olympic boycotts is not
an appropriate or effective way to protest ANYTHING, regardless of the
merit or lack of merit a particular cause may have.
The point is why is everyone so easily fooled by the website. Its a
Falunging sponsored tirade claiming to be THE spokesman for New
Zealand. I am sure the New Zealanders are totally unaware of the
FLG's activities. New Zealanders have no intentions to boycott
anything.
Just ignore the claim.
Don't worry, I never mistook the original poster for a serious
organization.
Bill Moore
2004-10-13 17:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaPaPeng
Post by Natman
My point was NOT to get sucked into an argument about Chinese
policies, but to make a point that calling for Olympic boycotts is not
an appropriate or effective way to protest ANYTHING, regardless of the
merit or lack of merit a particular cause may have.
The point is why is everyone so easily fooled by the website. Its a
Falunging sponsored tirade claiming to be THE spokesman for New
Zealand. I am sure the New Zealanders are totally unaware of the
FLG's activities. New Zealanders have no intentions to boycott
anything.
Just ignore the claim.
Boycotting the Olympics is probably not the answer,
but the horrible torture inflicted on Falun Gong is
still real and shameful.
SimonFx
2004-10-16 09:35:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Natman
However the Olympics are NOT the place to make your political point.
They are supposed to be a place where political disagreements are put
aside in order to hold worldwide athletic competition. The 1980 and
1984 boycotts were disgraceful wastes that accomplished nothing.
Except in the unlikely event that you yourself are a qualified member
of a 2008 Olympic team, you have no business asking someone ELSE to
sacrifice participating in the Olympics for a political cause YOU
believe in, no matter how worthy.
The olympics and other sporting events can be an excellent venue to make
a political point, but only to those who are interested in the that
event. Many countries don't give a damn about the olympics and the point
would be missed.

Athletes are necessarily single minded and focused on the task at hand,
rather than following the various political nuances on the international
scene. You elect a government to represent you and to make political
decisions on your behalf.

In my opinion, if your government says "Don't go because these people
are really doing some bad things" then you should follow the ruling in
the hopes that your govt has the set you on the path for the higher
good, rather than heading off on your own self-serving agenda. You
should still be able to go, but not with any government assistance.

Joe Public has every right to ask his government to boycott the olympics
if he thinks that there is an issue worth boycotting for. The government
the should either (a) educate Joe about why he is an ignorant dumbass or
(b) agree with Joe and implement the boycott.

I would prefer to see all New Zealand athletes wear "Free Tibet"
T-Shirts rather than not go. They would probably be expelled or
executed, now that would make the papers and be more in the face of the
countries that don't care about the olympics.

Of course, Chinese team could wear shirts with "Maori Land Rights", "New
Zealand seperatists still spurn Australia", "Honour Maori Spiritual Sea
Rights".

In fact, if NZ govt continues with the bill on seabed / marine rights,
perhaps China should refuse them entry to the 2008 olympics?

- SimonFx
Troy Heagy
2004-10-21 13:03:30 UTC
Permalink
In the Ancient Olympics, the Greece city-states would cease fighting
and unite peacefully for sport-competition.

The same should be true for the Modern Olympics. Stop the petty
bickering and peacefully unite for 2 weeks.

No Boycotts.

Troy
Dersu
2004-10-12 07:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
I doubt they would notice we were missing but, yes, I agree in principle.

D.
TK
2004-10-12 07:55:24 UTC
Permalink
The problem is the IOC awarded the games to a agrressively oppressive
imperialsit regime.

The games should be non-political but they are grounds for nationalism. If
anyone thought that LA and Atlanta were a bit much at times just wait for
Beijing.

The Games are definelty political for the CCP dictators. The still ahve the
Sports Schools were in several hundred thousand children identified as
talented endure intense training regimes to achiebve success and glory for
the motherland. Love of sport - don't think so

Sport is a political statement for the CCP.

For a comparison, consider the impact that the rugby boycott had on the
instransient South African racist regime. Nelson Mandela and the ANC seemed
to think it contributed in a real way along with the other sporting &
economic sanctions.

Human rights concerns, ethnis oppression, religious oppression, occupation
of a soverign nation - Tibet, subjugation of East Turkestan and the
continued threatening og Taiwan should have rendered their bid null anfd
viod.

Shame on the IOC !!!!!!!
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Sue Bilstein
2004-10-13 07:45:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Tibet aside, NZ athletes should stay away from Beijing for the sake of
their lungs. Imagine doing intense aerobic exercise in an atmosphere
that is 40% coal smoke, 40% bad IC exhaust, 20% actual air!

(soc.culture.china,rec.sport.olympics,aus.politics snipped)
LT Lee
2004-10-25 10:14:25 UTC
Permalink
http://www.kiwinews.co.nz/cgi-bin/editor/print.pl?article=4879

A Backgrounder On Saturday's Anti-Racism March 23 October, 2004
Derek Cheng

When first-generation Chinese New Zealander Tze Ming Mok talked to a
National Front member outside the Chinese Embassy in June, she was
called a "peasant" and to return to her "third-world country". When
she asked why he refused to look at her, he said the sight of her face
was disgusting and ugly.

It was this kind of abuse that saw the formation of Multicultural
Aotearoa, who has the support of organisations and celebrities
including Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association, the
Alliance Party and author Elizabeth Knox.

MCA is marching to Parliament today with an expected minimum of 3000
supporters. Although formed in response to National Front plans,
spokesperson Ms Mok said the march has a wider objective - to oppose
racism and to promote ethnic groups taking part in all levels of
society.

[...]

--------------------
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
David Pears
2004-10-25 10:44:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
MCA is marching to Parliament today with an expected minimum of 3000
supporters. Although formed in response to National Front plans,
spokesperson Ms Mok said the march has a wider objective - to oppose
racism and to promote ethnic groups taking part in all levels of
society.
So why did they run riot in the street like a mob of facist bully
boys, amazingly making the National Front look reasonable? Looks like
they should have listed "score own goal" as one of their objectives.

David
LT Lee
2004-10-25 15:50:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Pears
Post by LT Lee
MCA is marching to Parliament today with an expected minimum of 3000
supporters. Although formed in response to National Front plans,
spokesperson Ms Mok said the march has a wider objective - to oppose
racism and to promote ethnic groups taking part in all levels of
society.
So why did they run riot in the street like a mob of facist bully
boys, amazingly making the National Front look reasonable? Looks like
they should have listed "score own goal" as one of their objectives.
David
Don't know what you are talking about. The protest march appeared to be orderly.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0410/S00266.htm
David Pears
2004-10-25 21:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
Post by David Pears
Post by LT Lee
MCA is marching to Parliament today with an expected minimum of 3000
supporters. Although formed in response to National Front plans,
spokesperson Ms Mok said the march has a wider objective - to oppose
racism and to promote ethnic groups taking part in all levels of
society.
So why did they run riot in the street like a mob of facist bully
boys, amazingly making the National Front look reasonable? Looks like
they should have listed "score own goal" as one of their objectives.
David
Don't know what you are talking about. The protest march appeared to be orderly.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0410/S00266.htm
I'm talking about...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3074547a11,00.html

David
LT Lee
2004-10-27 09:05:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Pears
Post by LT Lee
Post by David Pears
Post by LT Lee
MCA is marching to Parliament today with an expected minimum of 3000
supporters. Although formed in response to National Front plans,
spokesperson Ms Mok said the march has a wider objective - to oppose
racism and to promote ethnic groups taking part in all levels of
society.
So why did they run riot in the street like a mob of facist bully
boys, amazingly making the National Front look reasonable? Looks like
they should have listed "score own goal" as one of their objectives.
David
Don't know what you are talking about. The protest march appeared to be orderly.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0410/S00266.htm
I'm talking about...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3074547a11,00.html
David
Ouch. That kind of behavior is not good.
Brian Damage
2004-10-25 16:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Quote of a Naziland paper:

"A Sunday Star-Times/BRC poll this month found 53 per cent of New
Zealanders believe that race relations are getting worse.

Just 15 per cent thought race relations were getting better, and 29
per cent thought they were unchanged.

Asians were identified by most respondents as the ethnic group which
suffered most from discrimination. Thirty-nine per cent believed
Asians were most discriminated against, 14 per cent said Pakeha faced
most discrimination, 10 per cent said Maori, 5 per cent per cent said
Pacific Islanders, and 18 per cent said other ethnic groups.

Most pessimistic about race relations were National supporters (66 per
cent) and people aged over 60 (64 per cent). "

Naziland has been and always been racist against non-whites. 1st gen
Nazilander Tze Ming Mok was told to go back to her 3rd world country
by some loser white trash that longed for the "imperial dominance" of
the past didn't even realized that many of the immigrants' home
country are more affluent than Naziland.

These losers need to know that in the 21st century being white does
not guarantee superiority over other people. Being white doesn't mean
that you deserve higher pay and choice jobs.

Naziland is going down the colonial toilet flush.
Post by LT Lee
http://www.kiwinews.co.nz/cgi-bin/editor/print.pl?article=4879
A Backgrounder On Saturday's Anti-Racism March 23 October, 2004
Derek Cheng
When first-generation Chinese New Zealander Tze Ming Mok talked to a
National Front member outside the Chinese Embassy in June, she was
called a "peasant" and to return to her "third-world country". When
she asked why he refused to look at her, he said the sight of her face
was disgusting and ugly.
It was this kind of abuse that saw the formation of Multicultural
Aotearoa, who has the support of organisations and celebrities
including Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association, the
Alliance Party and author Elizabeth Knox.
MCA is marching to Parliament today with an expected minimum of 3000
supporters. Although formed in response to National Front plans,
spokesperson Ms Mok said the march has a wider objective - to oppose
racism and to promote ethnic groups taking part in all levels of
society.
[...]
--------------------
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Anton
2004-10-25 20:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Archive-name: usenet/legends/godwin
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-Modified: October 7, 2003
Version: 1.15
URL: http://www.killfile.org/faqs/godwin.faq
Maintainer: ***@killfile.org (Tim Skirvin)

Godwin's Law FAQ
-or-
"How to post about Nazis and get away with it"

One of the most famous pieces of Usenet trivia out there is "if you mention
Hitler or Nazis in a post, you've automatically ended whatever discussion
you were taking part in". Known as Godwin's Law, this rule of Usenet has a
long and sordid history on the network - and is absolutely wrong. This FAQ
is an attempt to set straight as much of the history and meaning of Godwin's
Law as possible, and hopefully encourage users to invoke it a bit more
sparingly. Of course, knowing Usenet, it won't do an ounce of good...


[Standard Disclaimers: this document assumes you have some basic knowledge
of Usenet; if you don't, go check out news.announce.newusers for a while to
gain said knowledge. Misuse of the information contained within this FAQ
is not the responsibility of the author (though he's pretty confused
exactly
how you could misuse this information). Copyright 1999-2002, Tim Skirvin,
all rights reserved, <FISH><, fnord, furrfu.]


I. The Basics
1. What is Godwin's Law?

Godwin's Law is a natural law of Usenet named after Mike Godwin
(***@eff.org) concerning Usenet "discussions". It reads, according to
the Jargon File:

As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.


2. What does it mean?

It pretty much means exactly what it says - as a Usenet thread
goes on, the chances of somebody or something being compared to a Nazi
approach one.


3. Yes, but what does it *mean*?

Aah, now *there's* the real question.

In case your head has been buried in the sand for the last sixty
years or so, the Nazis were a German political party lead by Adolf Hitler
that slaughtered upwards of ten million people that didn't meet their
standards of "ethnic purity" and set off to conquer Europe and the world
in World War II. They are generally considered the most evil group of
people to live in modern times, and to compare something or someone to
them is usually considered the gravest insult imaginable.

As a Usenet discussion gets longer it tends to get more heated; as
more heat enters the discussion, tensions get higher and people start to
insult each other over anything they can think of. Godwin's Law merely
notes that, eventually, those tensions eventually cause someone to find
the worst insults that come to mind - which will almost always include a
Nazi comparison.


4. That still doesn't answer my question. What does it *MEAN*?

The Law is generally used on Usenet as an indicator of whether a
thread has gone on too long, who's playing fair and who's just slinging
mud, and who finally gets to "win" the discussion. It has, over time,
become the closest thing to an impartial moderator that Usenet can get.

So, what this means in practical terms:

o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
wasn't necessary or germane without it necessarily being an
insult, it's probably about time for the thread to end.
o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
was vaguely related but is basically being used as an insult,
the speaker can be considered to be flaming and not debating.
o If someone brings up Nazis in any conversation that has been
going on too long for one of the parties, it can be used as
a fair excuse to end the thread and declare victory for the
other side.


5. So - *WHAT DOES IT MEAN*?

Fine, fine - it means that somebody's eventually going to say
something about the Nazis in any thread that lasts very long. When it
happens, the thread is going to start either degenerating into a long
flamewar over Nazi Germany or about Godwin's Law. Either way, the thread
is effectively over, and you can safely killfile the thread and move on.


II. What does it mean?
1. Didn't we already spend the last section talking about this?

Well, yeah, but people don't seem to get the point...


2. What happens if we're actually talking about Nazis?

Then you've already invoked Godwin's Law, and the chances are that
your thread isn't going to last all that much longer as a sane discussion.
Them's the breaks.

That isn't to say, of course, that you can't talk about Nazis and
such on Usenet - this *is* Usenet, after all, where virtually every
conversation that goes on is fairly ludicrous in the first place. It's
just going to take you a lot more effort to find real information out of
there and to avoid getting yourself off on side-threads - which you'll
eventually do regardless, but you can try to put it off.

This also applies if a thread mutates into an actual discussion of
Nazis, of course.


3. What about arguing with Neo-Nazis?

Arguing with Neo-Nazis is probably the quickest path to getting
Nazi invocations, because, well, they're actually accurate. Still, trying
to invoke Godwin's Law near a Neo-Nazi isn't really a good idea because
it's not terribly original and they'll probably get off on it anyway.
Just ignore them and occasionally publish a FAQ detailing what actually
happened during the Holocaust and such; arguing probably isn't going to
help you.


4. How can I use Godwin's Law to my advantage?

In the proper kind of flamewar, Godwin's Law can be used as a
gambit - how can you force your opponent to invoke the Law? Actually
teaching these skills is tough, of course, and is best done through
experience. Experience with chess and alt.flame are recommended.


5. What should I do if somebody else invokes Godwin's Law?

The obvious response is to call them on it, say "thread's over",
and declare victory. This is also one of the stupidest possible responses,
because it involves believing far too much in the power of a few rules that
don't say exactly what you wish they said anyway. The proper response to
an invocation is probably to simply followup with a message saying "Oh.
I'm a Nazi? Sure. Bye" and leave, and in most cases even that much of a
post is unnecessary.


6. "Hitler!" Ha! The thread is over!

Nope, doesn't work that way. Not only is it wrong to say that a
thread is over when Godwin's Law is invoked anyway (Usenet threads
virtually always outlive their usefulness), but long ago a corollary to
the Law was proposed and accepted by Taki "Quirk" Kogama (***@swcp.com):

Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called
"Nazi Clause" is ineffectual.

Sorry, folks. Nice try, though.


7. Does Godwin's Law apply in the real world?

Actually, yeah, but usually discussions in Real Life end by
somebody wandering off in disgust before it can be invoked.


8. Are there any topics that lead directly to Godwin Invocations?

Well, yeah. Of course. Case's Corollary to the Law states "if
the subject is Heinlein or homosexuality, the probability of a Hitler/Nazi
comparison being made becomes equal to one" - but that's just an old list.
Abortion and gun control debates always lead to Nazi comparisons; talk
with a Libertarian for more than a few hours and he'll almost certainly
bring up Nazis; book-burning is pretty much considered a sub-topic of
Nazism at this point. Hell, talk about anything politically related and
you'll eventually get there.

If you're really bored, a fun game to play is Six Degrees of Godwin.
Take a topic - any topic - and see how quickly you can relate it to Nazis
using legitimate topic drift methods. For example: a discussion about
computers will eventually lead to discussions of keyboards and which are
best, followed by a lot of complaining about the Windows key on 104-key
keyboards, leading to complaints about Microsoft, forcing the standard
MS-vs-government flamewar that I'm sure you're all aware of, leading to
attacks on Microsoft's "fascist" tactics by one side or another, which
will force the other side to start talking about the differences between
fascism, capitalism, and, of course, Nazism! The fun never stops!



Appendix A: The Many Forms of Godwin's Law

"You can tell when a USENET discussion is getting old when one of the
participants drags out Hitler and the Nazis."
- Richard Sexton (http://www.vrx.net/richard/) stating what would later
be known as Godwin's Law, Message-ID <***@gryphon.COM>, 16 Oct 1989

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21000%40gryphon.COM&output=gplain

"Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies: As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the
probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
- Mike Godwin, first article about the topic in the Google archives,
Message-ID <***@eff.org>, 18 Aug 1991

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1991Aug18.215029.19421%40eff.org

:Godwin's Law: /prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows
longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler
approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once
this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis
has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's
Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on
thread length in those groups.
- The Jargon File (http://www.ccil.org/jargon/)

Hitler, Nazis, nazis, and net.cops:
Warning: now that this FAQ has mentioned Hitler and Nazis, UseNet Rule #4
(also known as Godwin's Rule, after Mike Godwin of the EFF, sci.crypt, and
comp.org.eff.talk, a sometime foe of David Sternlight (q.v.) [even though it
was apparently in use, by Richard Sexton {q.v.} among others, before Mike's
1988 (?) net.advent; the "Godwin's" part seems to stem from "Rich Rosen's
Rules of Net.Debate, which I don't have a copy of]) says it will be coming
to
an irrelevant and off-topic end soon. Just as there will always be newbies
("It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the net" - response to a 1993 wave
of delphi.com postings on a.f.u), there will always be people who see the
net
and are repulsed because there's stuff there they don't want to see - so
they
set out to make sure noone else can, either. They invariably fail, because
there are no net.cops to enforce any such rules on UseNet; in the course of
the heated flamewar that usually follows, things escalate until either
Hitler
or Nazis (or both) put in an appearance, at which point the thread has
officially lost all relevance. People scream at each other a bit more, then
give up and go home. Bleah. "Keep your brains up top; don't be a net.cop."
This has mutated, in true UseNet fashion, to encompass *any* continuing
thread; if you mention Hitler or Nazis out of the blue, the thread is sure
to
die irrelevantly soon (and, incidentally, you've lost the argument, whatever
it was)... and every continuing thread on UseNet *must* contain such a
reference sooner or later. Invoking Rule #4 deliberately in hopes of ending
a thread, however, is doomed to failure (Quirk's Exception)...

UseNet Rules #n:
No firm info at the present time is available on just what the other UseNet
Rules #n are. However, at a guess, they include:
--
Rule #nonumber: There are no hard-and-fast Rules on UseNet, only Guidelines,
which are more or less strictly enforced (and differ) from group to group;
this is why it's generally wise to read any group for a bit before ever
posting to it.
Rule #0: *There* *is* *no* *C*b*l*. There *is*, however, a net-wide
conspiracy designed solely to lead Dave Hayes (q.v.) to believe that there
is a C*b*l.
Corollary: *There* *are* *no* *pods*.
Rule #9: It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the Net.
Dave Fischer's Extension: 1993 was The Year September Never Ended [so far,
there doesn't seem to be much evidence he's wrong...]
Rule #17: Go not to UseNet for counsel, for they will say both `No' and
`Yes' and `Try another newsgroup'.
Rule #2 (John Gilmore): "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes
around it."
Rule #108 (from the soc.motss FAQ): "What will happen to me if I read
soc.motss?" "In general, nothing. (You may be informed or infuriated, of
course; but that's a standard Usenet hazard.)"
Rule #666: Old alt groups never die. They don't fade away nicely, either.
Rule #7-B: There is no topic so thoroughly covered that noone will ever
bring it up again.
Rule #90120: Applying your standards to someone else's post *will* result
in a flamewar.
Rule #1: Spellling and grammer counts. So do grace, wit, and a sense of
humor (the latter two are different), as well as a willingness to meet
odd people, but these are lesser considerations.
Rule #x^2: FAQs are asked frequently. Get used to them.
Rule #29: no rational discourse can happen in a thread cross-posted to
more than two newsgroups.
rule #6 (Eddie Saxe): don't post to misc.test unless you understand the
consequences.
Rule #547 (Arne Adolfsen): When people know they're wrong they resort to ad
hominems.
Rule #37 (Faisal Nameer Jawdat): Read the thread from the beginning, or
else.
Rule #5 (Reimer's Reason): Nobody ever ignores what they should ignore on
Usenet.
Rule $19.99 (Brad `Squid' Shapcott): The Internet *isn't* *free*. It just
has
an economy that makes no sense to capitalism.
Rule #3 ("Why 3?" "Because we felt like it"): For every opinion there is at
least one equally loud and opposing opinion; sometimes stated as:
Rule #27 (Gary Lewandowski): "In cyberspace, *everyone* can hear you
scream."
And for completeness' sake:

Rule #4: (Godwin's Rule) Any off-topic mention of Hitler or Nazis will cause
the thread it is mentioned in to an irrelevant and off-topic end very soon;
every thread on UseNet has a constantly-increasing probability to contain
such a mention.
Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called "Nazi Clause"
is
ineffectual.
Case's Corollary: If the subject is Heinlein or homosexuality, the
probability of a Hitler/Nazi comparison being made becomes equal to one.
- net.legends FAQ (http://www.killfile.org/faqs/legends.html)



Appendix B: Addendums, Commentary, and Miscellaneous

1. Bentsen's Defense

For some, there is another way around Godwin's Law:

"Not this time. I know Mike Godwin. Mike Godwin is a friend of mine.
Senator, you're no Mike Godwin."

This, of course, only applies to friends of Mike Godwin. The
originator of this rule, Earl Cooley III (***@io.com), is one of those
people. If you have to ask, you don't apply. I don't apply, so don't
feel bad.

Note that this was named after Senator Lloyd Bentsen's "You're
no Jack Kennedy" line from the 1988 vice-presidential debates. And the
original usage can be found in <***@news.supernews.com>:


http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=***@news.supernews.c
om


2. Godwin's Commentary

Godwin actually wrote a short article for Wired Magazine on the
Law back in 1994:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html

The article is actually more about the power and danger of memes
(thought-viruses) than about Godwin's Law itself, but it's worthwhile
reading for anybody who actually got this far into the FAQ.


3. Author's Note on the Holocaust

Over the years, I have received several emails regarding this FAQ
regarding the Holocaust itself, either disputing the holocaust or the
numbers listed in this FAQ. I'd just like to make it clear that I don't
have any particular desire to debate these points; this FAQ is meant to
point out and explain a quirk of human nature, not to codify the history
of World War II.


4. Additional Corollaries

There have been many additional corollaries and otherwise related
rules created since the net.legends FAQ codified them, and/or missed in
that FAQ. Those that have been brought to the author's attention:

Stead's Law (named for Lew Stead of alt.pagan fame):
Any discussion between more than 2 Pagans will eventually come around
to Christianity.
- Reported by Donal Brewich <***@brewich.com>
- More information regarding its history would be appreciated

--
Copyright 1999-2003, Tim Skirvin
http://www.killfile.org/faqs/godwin.faq
Post by Brian Damage
"A Sunday Star-Times/BRC poll this month found 53 per cent of New
Zealanders believe that race relations are getting worse.
Just 15 per cent thought race relations were getting better, and 29
per cent thought they were unchanged.
Asians were identified by most respondents as the ethnic group which
suffered most from discrimination. Thirty-nine per cent believed
Asians were most discriminated against, 14 per cent said Pakeha faced
most discrimination, 10 per cent said Maori, 5 per cent per cent said
Pacific Islanders, and 18 per cent said other ethnic groups.
Most pessimistic about race relations were National supporters (66 per
cent) and people aged over 60 (64 per cent). "
Naziland has been and always been racist against non-whites. 1st gen
Nazilander Tze Ming Mok was told to go back to her 3rd world country
by some loser white trash that longed for the "imperial dominance" of
the past didn't even realized that many of the immigrants' home
country are more affluent than Naziland.
These losers need to know that in the 21st century being white does
not guarantee superiority over other people. Being white doesn't mean
that you deserve higher pay and choice jobs.
Naziland is going down the colonial toilet flush.
Post by LT Lee
http://www.kiwinews.co.nz/cgi-bin/editor/print.pl?article=4879
A Backgrounder On Saturday's Anti-Racism March 23 October, 2004
Derek Cheng
When first-generation Chinese New Zealander Tze Ming Mok talked to a
National Front member outside the Chinese Embassy in June, she was
called a "peasant" and to return to her "third-world country". When
she asked why he refused to look at her, he said the sight of her face
was disgusting and ugly.
It was this kind of abuse that saw the formation of Multicultural
Aotearoa, who has the support of organisations and celebrities
including Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association, the
Alliance Party and author Elizabeth Knox.
MCA is marching to Parliament today with an expected minimum of 3000
supporters. Although formed in response to National Front plans,
spokesperson Ms Mok said the march has a wider objective - to oppose
racism and to promote ethnic groups taking part in all levels of
society.
[...]
--------------------
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Brian Damage
2004-10-26 02:30:12 UTC
Permalink
I posted in Usenet since the early 90s. I operate under the
grandfathered law before Godwin's law. If I want to carry on a
discussion, I would use different tact. Obviously, my previous post
was to call a spade a spade. A nazi a nazi. This is not an attempt to
call somebody else a Nazi after a heated discussion BUT AN ACTUAL
DESCRIPTION OF A COLONIAL LEFTOVER THAT STILL THINKS IT IS STILL IN
THE 1800'S SELLING SHEEP PRODUCTS TO MOTHER ENGLAND. Naziland has
been able to get away with anti-white racism for FAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRR
too long. Ever been to Christchurch during the 80s? One fucking
scary experience for a Chinaman like me.
Post by Anton
Archive-name: usenet/legends/godwin
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-Modified: October 7, 2003
Version: 1.15
URL: http://www.killfile.org/faqs/godwin.faq
Godwin's Law FAQ
-or-
"How to post about Nazis and get away with it"
One of the most famous pieces of Usenet trivia out there is "if you mention
Hitler or Nazis in a post, you've automatically ended whatever discussion
you were taking part in". Known as Godwin's Law, this rule of Usenet has a
long and sordid history on the network - and is absolutely wrong. This FAQ
is an attempt to set straight as much of the history and meaning of Godwin's
Law as possible, and hopefully encourage users to invoke it a bit more
sparingly. Of course, knowing Usenet, it won't do an ounce of good...
[Standard Disclaimers: this document assumes you have some basic knowledge
of Usenet; if you don't, go check out news.announce.newusers for a while to
gain said knowledge. Misuse of the information contained within this FAQ
is not the responsibility of the author (though he's pretty confused
exactly
how you could misuse this information). Copyright 1999-2002, Tim Skirvin,
all rights reserved, <FISH><, fnord, furrfu.]
I. The Basics
1. What is Godwin's Law?
Godwin's Law is a natural law of Usenet named after Mike Godwin
As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
2. What does it mean?
It pretty much means exactly what it says - as a Usenet thread
goes on, the chances of somebody or something being compared to a Nazi
approach one.
3. Yes, but what does it *mean*?
Aah, now *there's* the real question.
In case your head has been buried in the sand for the last sixty
years or so, the Nazis were a German political party lead by Adolf Hitler
that slaughtered upwards of ten million people that didn't meet their
standards of "ethnic purity" and set off to conquer Europe and the world
in World War II. They are generally considered the most evil group of
people to live in modern times, and to compare something or someone to
them is usually considered the gravest insult imaginable.
As a Usenet discussion gets longer it tends to get more heated; as
more heat enters the discussion, tensions get higher and people start to
insult each other over anything they can think of. Godwin's Law merely
notes that, eventually, those tensions eventually cause someone to find
the worst insults that come to mind - which will almost always include a
Nazi comparison.
4. That still doesn't answer my question. What does it *MEAN*?
The Law is generally used on Usenet as an indicator of whether a
thread has gone on too long, who's playing fair and who's just slinging
mud, and who finally gets to "win" the discussion. It has, over time,
become the closest thing to an impartial moderator that Usenet can get.
o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
wasn't necessary or germane without it necessarily being an
insult, it's probably about time for the thread to end.
o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
was vaguely related but is basically being used as an insult,
the speaker can be considered to be flaming and not debating.
o If someone brings up Nazis in any conversation that has been
going on too long for one of the parties, it can be used as
a fair excuse to end the thread and declare victory for the
other side.
5. So - *WHAT DOES IT MEAN*?
Fine, fine - it means that somebody's eventually going to say
something about the Nazis in any thread that lasts very long. When it
happens, the thread is going to start either degenerating into a long
flamewar over Nazi Germany or about Godwin's Law. Either way, the thread
is effectively over, and you can safely killfile the thread and move on.
II. What does it mean?
1. Didn't we already spend the last section talking about this?
Well, yeah, but people don't seem to get the point...
2. What happens if we're actually talking about Nazis?
Then you've already invoked Godwin's Law, and the chances are that
your thread isn't going to last all that much longer as a sane discussion.
Them's the breaks.
That isn't to say, of course, that you can't talk about Nazis and
such on Usenet - this *is* Usenet, after all, where virtually every
conversation that goes on is fairly ludicrous in the first place. It's
just going to take you a lot more effort to find real information out of
there and to avoid getting yourself off on side-threads - which you'll
eventually do regardless, but you can try to put it off.
This also applies if a thread mutates into an actual discussion of
Nazis, of course.
3. What about arguing with Neo-Nazis?
Arguing with Neo-Nazis is probably the quickest path to getting
Nazi invocations, because, well, they're actually accurate. Still, trying
to invoke Godwin's Law near a Neo-Nazi isn't really a good idea because
it's not terribly original and they'll probably get off on it anyway.
Just ignore them and occasionally publish a FAQ detailing what actually
happened during the Holocaust and such; arguing probably isn't going to
help you.
4. How can I use Godwin's Law to my advantage?
In the proper kind of flamewar, Godwin's Law can be used as a
gambit - how can you force your opponent to invoke the Law? Actually
teaching these skills is tough, of course, and is best done through
experience. Experience with chess and alt.flame are recommended.
5. What should I do if somebody else invokes Godwin's Law?
The obvious response is to call them on it, say "thread's over",
and declare victory. This is also one of the stupidest possible responses,
because it involves believing far too much in the power of a few rules that
don't say exactly what you wish they said anyway. The proper response to
an invocation is probably to simply followup with a message saying "Oh.
I'm a Nazi? Sure. Bye" and leave, and in most cases even that much of a
post is unnecessary.
6. "Hitler!" Ha! The thread is over!
Nope, doesn't work that way. Not only is it wrong to say that a
thread is over when Godwin's Law is invoked anyway (Usenet threads
virtually always outlive their usefulness), but long ago a corollary to
Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called
"Nazi Clause" is ineffectual.
Sorry, folks. Nice try, though.
7. Does Godwin's Law apply in the real world?
Actually, yeah, but usually discussions in Real Life end by
somebody wandering off in disgust before it can be invoked.
8. Are there any topics that lead directly to Godwin Invocations?
Well, yeah. Of course. Case's Corollary to the Law states "if
the subject is Heinlein or homosexuality, the probability of a Hitler/Nazi
comparison being made becomes equal to one" - but that's just an old list.
Abortion and gun control debates always lead to Nazi comparisons; talk
with a Libertarian for more than a few hours and he'll almost certainly
bring up Nazis; book-burning is pretty much considered a sub-topic of
Nazism at this point. Hell, talk about anything politically related and
you'll eventually get there.
If you're really bored, a fun game to play is Six Degrees of Godwin.
Take a topic - any topic - and see how quickly you can relate it to Nazis
using legitimate topic drift methods. For example: a discussion about
computers will eventually lead to discussions of keyboards and which are
best, followed by a lot of complaining about the Windows key on 104-key
keyboards, leading to complaints about Microsoft, forcing the standard
MS-vs-government flamewar that I'm sure you're all aware of, leading to
attacks on Microsoft's "fascist" tactics by one side or another, which
will force the other side to start talking about the differences between
fascism, capitalism, and, of course, Nazism! The fun never stops!
Appendix A: The Many Forms of Godwin's Law
"You can tell when a USENET discussion is getting old when one of the
participants drags out Hitler and the Nazis."
- Richard Sexton (http://www.vrx.net/richard/) stating what would later
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21000%40gryphon.COM&output=gplain
"Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies: As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the
probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
- Mike Godwin, first article about the topic in the Google archives,
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1991Aug18.215029.19421%40eff.org
:Godwin's Law: /prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows
longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler
approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once
this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis
has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's
Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on
thread length in those groups.
- The Jargon File (http://www.ccil.org/jargon/)
Warning: now that this FAQ has mentioned Hitler and Nazis, UseNet Rule #4
(also known as Godwin's Rule, after Mike Godwin of the EFF, sci.crypt, and
comp.org.eff.talk, a sometime foe of David Sternlight (q.v.) [even though it
was apparently in use, by Richard Sexton {q.v.} among others, before Mike's
1988 (?) net.advent; the "Godwin's" part seems to stem from "Rich Rosen's
Rules of Net.Debate, which I don't have a copy of]) says it will be coming
to
an irrelevant and off-topic end soon. Just as there will always be newbies
("It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the net" - response to a 1993 wave
of delphi.com postings on a.f.u), there will always be people who see the
net
and are repulsed because there's stuff there they don't want to see - so
they
set out to make sure noone else can, either. They invariably fail, because
there are no net.cops to enforce any such rules on UseNet; in the course of
the heated flamewar that usually follows, things escalate until either
Hitler
or Nazis (or both) put in an appearance, at which point the thread has
officially lost all relevance. People scream at each other a bit more, then
give up and go home. Bleah. "Keep your brains up top; don't be a net.cop."
This has mutated, in true UseNet fashion, to encompass *any* continuing
thread; if you mention Hitler or Nazis out of the blue, the thread is sure
to
die irrelevantly soon (and, incidentally, you've lost the argument, whatever
it was)... and every continuing thread on UseNet *must* contain such a
reference sooner or later. Invoking Rule #4 deliberately in hopes of ending
a thread, however, is doomed to failure (Quirk's Exception)...
No firm info at the present time is available on just what the other UseNet
--
Rule #nonumber: There are no hard-and-fast Rules on UseNet, only Guidelines,
which are more or less strictly enforced (and differ) from group to group;
this is why it's generally wise to read any group for a bit before ever
posting to it.
Rule #0: *There* *is* *no* *C*b*l*. There *is*, however, a net-wide
conspiracy designed solely to lead Dave Hayes (q.v.) to believe that there
is a C*b*l.
Corollary: *There* *are* *no* *pods*.
Rule #9: It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the Net.
Dave Fischer's Extension: 1993 was The Year September Never Ended [so far,
there doesn't seem to be much evidence he's wrong...]
Rule #17: Go not to UseNet for counsel, for they will say both `No' and
`Yes' and `Try another newsgroup'.
Rule #2 (John Gilmore): "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes
around it."
Rule #108 (from the soc.motss FAQ): "What will happen to me if I read
soc.motss?" "In general, nothing. (You may be informed or infuriated, of
course; but that's a standard Usenet hazard.)"
Rule #666: Old alt groups never die. They don't fade away nicely, either.
Rule #7-B: There is no topic so thoroughly covered that noone will ever
bring it up again.
Rule #90120: Applying your standards to someone else's post *will* result
in a flamewar.
Rule #1: Spellling and grammer counts. So do grace, wit, and a sense of
humor (the latter two are different), as well as a willingness to meet
odd people, but these are lesser considerations.
Rule #x^2: FAQs are asked frequently. Get used to them.
Rule #29: no rational discourse can happen in a thread cross-posted to
more than two newsgroups.
rule #6 (Eddie Saxe): don't post to misc.test unless you understand the
consequences.
Rule #547 (Arne Adolfsen): When people know they're wrong they resort to ad
hominems.
Rule #37 (Faisal Nameer Jawdat): Read the thread from the beginning, or
else.
Rule #5 (Reimer's Reason): Nobody ever ignores what they should ignore on
Usenet.
Rule $19.99 (Brad `Squid' Shapcott): The Internet *isn't* *free*. It just
has
an economy that makes no sense to capitalism.
Rule #3 ("Why 3?" "Because we felt like it"): For every opinion there is at
Rule #27 (Gary Lewandowski): "In cyberspace, *everyone* can hear you
scream."
Rule #4: (Godwin's Rule) Any off-topic mention of Hitler or Nazis will cause
the thread it is mentioned in to an irrelevant and off-topic end very soon;
every thread on UseNet has a constantly-increasing probability to contain
such a mention.
Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called "Nazi Clause"
is
ineffectual.
Case's Corollary: If the subject is Heinlein or homosexuality, the
probability of a Hitler/Nazi comparison being made becomes equal to one.
- net.legends FAQ (http://www.killfile.org/faqs/legends.html)
Appendix B: Addendums, Commentary, and Miscellaneous
1. Bentsen's Defense
"Not this time. I know Mike Godwin. Mike Godwin is a friend of mine.
Senator, you're no Mike Godwin."
This, of course, only applies to friends of Mike Godwin. The
people. If you have to ask, you don't apply. I don't apply, so don't
feel bad.
Note that this was named after Senator Lloyd Bentsen's "You're
no Jack Kennedy" line from the 1988 vice-presidential debates. And the
om
2. Godwin's Commentary
Godwin actually wrote a short article for Wired Magazine on the
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html
The article is actually more about the power and danger of memes
(thought-viruses) than about Godwin's Law itself, but it's worthwhile
reading for anybody who actually got this far into the FAQ.
3. Author's Note on the Holocaust
Over the years, I have received several emails regarding this FAQ
regarding the Holocaust itself, either disputing the holocaust or the
numbers listed in this FAQ. I'd just like to make it clear that I don't
have any particular desire to debate these points; this FAQ is meant to
point out and explain a quirk of human nature, not to codify the history
of World War II.
4. Additional Corollaries
There have been many additional corollaries and otherwise related
rules created since the net.legends FAQ codified them, and/or missed in
Any discussion between more than 2 Pagans will eventually come around
to Christianity.
- More information regarding its history would be appreciated
--
Copyright 1999-2003, Tim Skirvin
http://www.killfile.org/faqs/godwin.faq
Post by Brian Damage
"A Sunday Star-Times/BRC poll this month found 53 per cent of New
Zealanders believe that race relations are getting worse.
Just 15 per cent thought race relations were getting better, and 29
per cent thought they were unchanged.
Asians were identified by most respondents as the ethnic group which
suffered most from discrimination. Thirty-nine per cent believed
Asians were most discriminated against, 14 per cent said Pakeha faced
most discrimination, 10 per cent said Maori, 5 per cent per cent said
Pacific Islanders, and 18 per cent said other ethnic groups.
Most pessimistic about race relations were National supporters (66 per
cent) and people aged over 60 (64 per cent). "
Naziland has been and always been racist against non-whites. 1st gen
Nazilander Tze Ming Mok was told to go back to her 3rd world country
by some loser white trash that longed for the "imperial dominance" of
the past didn't even realized that many of the immigrants' home
country are more affluent than Naziland.
These losers need to know that in the 21st century being white does
not guarantee superiority over other people. Being white doesn't mean
that you deserve higher pay and choice jobs.
Naziland is going down the colonial toilet flush.
Post by LT Lee
http://www.kiwinews.co.nz/cgi-bin/editor/print.pl?article=4879
A Backgrounder On Saturday's Anti-Racism March 23 October, 2004
Derek Cheng
When first-generation Chinese New Zealander Tze Ming Mok talked to a
National Front member outside the Chinese Embassy in June, she was
called a "peasant" and to return to her "third-world country". When
she asked why he refused to look at her, he said the sight of her face
was disgusting and ugly.
It was this kind of abuse that saw the formation of Multicultural
Aotearoa, who has the support of organisations and celebrities
including Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association, the
Alliance Party and author Elizabeth Knox.
MCA is marching to Parliament today with an expected minimum of 3000
supporters. Although formed in response to National Front plans,
spokesperson Ms Mok said the march has a wider objective - to oppose
racism and to promote ethnic groups taking part in all levels of
society.
[...]
--------------------
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Bill Moore
2004-10-26 17:27:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Damage
I posted in Usenet since the early 90s. I operate under the
grandfathered law before Godwin's law. If I want to carry on a
discussion, I would use different tact. Obviously, my previous post
was to call a spade a spade. A nazi a nazi. This is not an attempt to
call somebody else a Nazi after a heated discussion BUT AN ACTUAL
DESCRIPTION OF A COLONIAL LEFTOVER THAT STILL THINKS IT IS STILL IN
THE 1800'S SELLING SHEEP PRODUCTS TO MOTHER ENGLAND. Naziland has
been able to get away with anti-white racism for FAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRR
too long. Ever been to Christchurch during the 80s? One fucking
scary experience for a Chinaman like me.
Racism is real of course, but how much of a part do you think
that the "angry victim" mentality that you often put forth
on Usenet with no provocation has to do with it?
Post by Brian Damage
Post by Anton
Archive-name: usenet/legends/godwin
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-Modified: October 7, 2003
Version: 1.15
URL: http://www.killfile.org/faqs/godwin.faq
Godwin's Law FAQ
-or-
"How to post about Nazis and get away with it"
One of the most famous pieces of Usenet trivia out there is "if you mention
Hitler or Nazis in a post, you've automatically ended whatever discussion
you were taking part in". Known as Godwin's Law, this rule of Usenet has a
long and sordid history on the network - and is absolutely wrong. This FAQ
is an attempt to set straight as much of the history and meaning of Godwin's
Law as possible, and hopefully encourage users to invoke it a bit more
sparingly. Of course, knowing Usenet, it won't do an ounce of good...
[Standard Disclaimers: this document assumes you have some basic knowledge
of Usenet; if you don't, go check out news.announce.newusers for a while to
gain said knowledge. Misuse of the information contained within this FAQ
is not the responsibility of the author (though he's pretty confused
exactly
how you could misuse this information). Copyright 1999-2002, Tim Skirvin,
all rights reserved, <FISH><, fnord, furrfu.]
I. The Basics
1. What is Godwin's Law?
Godwin's Law is a natural law of Usenet named after Mike Godwin
As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
2. What does it mean?
It pretty much means exactly what it says - as a Usenet thread
goes on, the chances of somebody or something being compared to a Nazi
approach one.
3. Yes, but what does it *mean*?
Aah, now *there's* the real question.
In case your head has been buried in the sand for the last sixty
years or so, the Nazis were a German political party lead by Adolf Hitler
that slaughtered upwards of ten million people that didn't meet their
standards of "ethnic purity" and set off to conquer Europe and the world
in World War II. They are generally considered the most evil group of
people to live in modern times, and to compare something or someone to
them is usually considered the gravest insult imaginable.
As a Usenet discussion gets longer it tends to get more heated; as
more heat enters the discussion, tensions get higher and people start to
insult each other over anything they can think of. Godwin's Law merely
notes that, eventually, those tensions eventually cause someone to find
the worst insults that come to mind - which will almost always include a
Nazi comparison.
4. That still doesn't answer my question. What does it *MEAN*?
The Law is generally used on Usenet as an indicator of whether a
thread has gone on too long, who's playing fair and who's just slinging
mud, and who finally gets to "win" the discussion. It has, over time,
become the closest thing to an impartial moderator that Usenet can get.
o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
wasn't necessary or germane without it necessarily being an
insult, it's probably about time for the thread to end.
o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
was vaguely related but is basically being used as an insult,
the speaker can be considered to be flaming and not debating.
o If someone brings up Nazis in any conversation that has been
going on too long for one of the parties, it can be used as
a fair excuse to end the thread and declare victory for the
other side.
5. So - *WHAT DOES IT MEAN*?
Fine, fine - it means that somebody's eventually going to say
something about the Nazis in any thread that lasts very long. When it
happens, the thread is going to start either degenerating into a long
flamewar over Nazi Germany or about Godwin's Law. Either way, the thread
is effectively over, and you can safely killfile the thread and move on.
II. What does it mean?
1. Didn't we already spend the last section talking about this?
Well, yeah, but people don't seem to get the point...
2. What happens if we're actually talking about Nazis?
Then you've already invoked Godwin's Law, and the chances are that
your thread isn't going to last all that much longer as a sane discussion.
Them's the breaks.
That isn't to say, of course, that you can't talk about Nazis and
such on Usenet - this *is* Usenet, after all, where virtually every
conversation that goes on is fairly ludicrous in the first place. It's
just going to take you a lot more effort to find real information out of
there and to avoid getting yourself off on side-threads - which you'll
eventually do regardless, but you can try to put it off.
This also applies if a thread mutates into an actual discussion of
Nazis, of course.
3. What about arguing with Neo-Nazis?
Arguing with Neo-Nazis is probably the quickest path to getting
Nazi invocations, because, well, they're actually accurate. Still, trying
to invoke Godwin's Law near a Neo-Nazi isn't really a good idea because
it's not terribly original and they'll probably get off on it anyway.
Just ignore them and occasionally publish a FAQ detailing what actually
happened during the Holocaust and such; arguing probably isn't going to
help you.
4. How can I use Godwin's Law to my advantage?
In the proper kind of flamewar, Godwin's Law can be used as a
gambit - how can you force your opponent to invoke the Law? Actually
teaching these skills is tough, of course, and is best done through
experience. Experience with chess and alt.flame are recommended.
5. What should I do if somebody else invokes Godwin's Law?
The obvious response is to call them on it, say "thread's over",
and declare victory. This is also one of the stupidest possible responses,
because it involves believing far too much in the power of a few rules that
don't say exactly what you wish they said anyway. The proper response to
an invocation is probably to simply followup with a message saying "Oh.
I'm a Nazi? Sure. Bye" and leave, and in most cases even that much of a
post is unnecessary.
6. "Hitler!" Ha! The thread is over!
Nope, doesn't work that way. Not only is it wrong to say that a
thread is over when Godwin's Law is invoked anyway (Usenet threads
virtually always outlive their usefulness), but long ago a corollary to
Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called
"Nazi Clause" is ineffectual.
Sorry, folks. Nice try, though.
7. Does Godwin's Law apply in the real world?
Actually, yeah, but usually discussions in Real Life end by
somebody wandering off in disgust before it can be invoked.
8. Are there any topics that lead directly to Godwin Invocations?
Well, yeah. Of course. Case's Corollary to the Law states "if
the subject is Heinlein or homosexuality, the probability of a Hitler/Nazi
comparison being made becomes equal to one" - but that's just an old list.
Abortion and gun control debates always lead to Nazi comparisons; talk
with a Libertarian for more than a few hours and he'll almost certainly
bring up Nazis; book-burning is pretty much considered a sub-topic of
Nazism at this point. Hell, talk about anything politically related and
you'll eventually get there.
If you're really bored, a fun game to play is Six Degrees of Godwin.
Take a topic - any topic - and see how quickly you can relate it to Nazis
using legitimate topic drift methods. For example: a discussion about
computers will eventually lead to discussions of keyboards and which are
best, followed by a lot of complaining about the Windows key on 104-key
keyboards, leading to complaints about Microsoft, forcing the standard
MS-vs-government flamewar that I'm sure you're all aware of, leading to
attacks on Microsoft's "fascist" tactics by one side or another, which
will force the other side to start talking about the differences between
fascism, capitalism, and, of course, Nazism! The fun never stops!
Appendix A: The Many Forms of Godwin's Law
"You can tell when a USENET discussion is getting old when one of the
participants drags out Hitler and the Nazis."
- Richard Sexton (http://www.vrx.net/richard/) stating what would later
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21000%40gryphon.COM&output=gplain
"Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies: As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the
probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
- Mike Godwin, first article about the topic in the Google archives,
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1991Aug18.215029.19421%40eff.org
:Godwin's Law: /prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows
longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler
approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once
this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis
has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's
Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on
thread length in those groups.
- The Jargon File (http://www.ccil.org/jargon/)
Warning: now that this FAQ has mentioned Hitler and Nazis, UseNet Rule #4
(also known as Godwin's Rule, after Mike Godwin of the EFF, sci.crypt, and
comp.org.eff.talk, a sometime foe of David Sternlight (q.v.) [even though it
was apparently in use, by Richard Sexton {q.v.} among others, before Mike's
1988 (?) net.advent; the "Godwin's" part seems to stem from "Rich Rosen's
Rules of Net.Debate, which I don't have a copy of]) says it will be coming
to
an irrelevant and off-topic end soon. Just as there will always be newbies
("It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the net" - response to a 1993 wave
of delphi.com postings on a.f.u), there will always be people who see the
net
and are repulsed because there's stuff there they don't want to see - so
they
set out to make sure noone else can, either. They invariably fail, because
there are no net.cops to enforce any such rules on UseNet; in the course of
the heated flamewar that usually follows, things escalate until either
Hitler
or Nazis (or both) put in an appearance, at which point the thread has
officially lost all relevance. People scream at each other a bit more, then
give up and go home. Bleah. "Keep your brains up top; don't be a net.cop."
This has mutated, in true UseNet fashion, to encompass *any* continuing
thread; if you mention Hitler or Nazis out of the blue, the thread is sure
to
die irrelevantly soon (and, incidentally, you've lost the argument, whatever
it was)... and every continuing thread on UseNet *must* contain such a
reference sooner or later. Invoking Rule #4 deliberately in hopes of ending
a thread, however, is doomed to failure (Quirk's Exception)...
No firm info at the present time is available on just what the other UseNet
--
Rule #nonumber: There are no hard-and-fast Rules on UseNet, only Guidelines,
which are more or less strictly enforced (and differ) from group to group;
this is why it's generally wise to read any group for a bit before ever
posting to it.
Rule #0: *There* *is* *no* *C*b*l*. There *is*, however, a net-wide
conspiracy designed solely to lead Dave Hayes (q.v.) to believe that there
is a C*b*l.
Corollary: *There* *are* *no* *pods*.
Rule #9: It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the Net.
Dave Fischer's Extension: 1993 was The Year September Never Ended [so far,
there doesn't seem to be much evidence he's wrong...]
Rule #17: Go not to UseNet for counsel, for they will say both `No' and
`Yes' and `Try another newsgroup'.
Rule #2 (John Gilmore): "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes
around it."
Rule #108 (from the soc.motss FAQ): "What will happen to me if I read
soc.motss?" "In general, nothing. (You may be informed or infuriated, of
course; but that's a standard Usenet hazard.)"
Rule #666: Old alt groups never die. They don't fade away nicely, either.
Rule #7-B: There is no topic so thoroughly covered that noone will ever
bring it up again.
Rule #90120: Applying your standards to someone else's post *will* result
in a flamewar.
Rule #1: Spellling and grammer counts. So do grace, wit, and a sense of
humor (the latter two are different), as well as a willingness to meet
odd people, but these are lesser considerations.
Rule #x^2: FAQs are asked frequently. Get used to them.
Rule #29: no rational discourse can happen in a thread cross-posted to
more than two newsgroups.
rule #6 (Eddie Saxe): don't post to misc.test unless you understand the
consequences.
Rule #547 (Arne Adolfsen): When people know they're wrong they resort to ad
hominems.
Rule #37 (Faisal Nameer Jawdat): Read the thread from the beginning, or
else.
Rule #5 (Reimer's Reason): Nobody ever ignores what they should ignore on
Usenet.
Rule $19.99 (Brad `Squid' Shapcott): The Internet *isn't* *free*. It just
has
an economy that makes no sense to capitalism.
Rule #3 ("Why 3?" "Because we felt like it"): For every opinion there is at
Rule #27 (Gary Lewandowski): "In cyberspace, *everyone* can hear you
scream."
Rule #4: (Godwin's Rule) Any off-topic mention of Hitler or Nazis will cause
the thread it is mentioned in to an irrelevant and off-topic end very soon;
every thread on UseNet has a constantly-increasing probability to contain
such a mention.
Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called "Nazi Clause"
is
ineffectual.
Case's Corollary: If the subject is Heinlein or homosexuality, the
probability of a Hitler/Nazi comparison being made becomes equal to one.
- net.legends FAQ (http://www.killfile.org/faqs/legends.html)
Appendix B: Addendums, Commentary, and Miscellaneous
1. Bentsen's Defense
"Not this time. I know Mike Godwin. Mike Godwin is a friend of mine.
Senator, you're no Mike Godwin."
This, of course, only applies to friends of Mike Godwin. The
people. If you have to ask, you don't apply. I don't apply, so don't
feel bad.
Note that this was named after Senator Lloyd Bentsen's "You're
no Jack Kennedy" line from the 1988 vice-presidential debates. And the
om
2. Godwin's Commentary
Godwin actually wrote a short article for Wired Magazine on the
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html
The article is actually more about the power and danger of memes
(thought-viruses) than about Godwin's Law itself, but it's worthwhile
reading for anybody who actually got this far into the FAQ.
3. Author's Note on the Holocaust
Over the years, I have received several emails regarding this FAQ
regarding the Holocaust itself, either disputing the holocaust or the
numbers listed in this FAQ. I'd just like to make it clear that I don't
have any particular desire to debate these points; this FAQ is meant to
point out and explain a quirk of human nature, not to codify the history
of World War II.
4. Additional Corollaries
There have been many additional corollaries and otherwise related
rules created since the net.legends FAQ codified them, and/or missed in
Any discussion between more than 2 Pagans will eventually come around
to Christianity.
- More information regarding its history would be appreciated
--
Copyright 1999-2003, Tim Skirvin
http://www.killfile.org/faqs/godwin.faq
Post by Brian Damage
"A Sunday Star-Times/BRC poll this month found 53 per cent of New
Zealanders believe that race relations are getting worse.
Just 15 per cent thought race relations were getting better, and 29
per cent thought they were unchanged.
Asians were identified by most respondents as the ethnic group which
suffered most from discrimination. Thirty-nine per cent believed
Asians were most discriminated against, 14 per cent said Pakeha faced
most discrimination, 10 per cent said Maori, 5 per cent per cent said
Pacific Islanders, and 18 per cent said other ethnic groups.
Most pessimistic about race relations were National supporters (66 per
cent) and people aged over 60 (64 per cent). "
Naziland has been and always been racist against non-whites. 1st gen
Nazilander Tze Ming Mok was told to go back to her 3rd world country
by some loser white trash that longed for the "imperial dominance" of
the past didn't even realized that many of the immigrants' home
country are more affluent than Naziland.
These losers need to know that in the 21st century being white does
not guarantee superiority over other people. Being white doesn't mean
that you deserve higher pay and choice jobs.
Naziland is going down the colonial toilet flush.
Post by LT Lee
http://www.kiwinews.co.nz/cgi-bin/editor/print.pl?article=4879
A Backgrounder On Saturday's Anti-Racism March 23 October, 2004
Derek Cheng
When first-generation Chinese New Zealander Tze Ming Mok talked to a
National Front member outside the Chinese Embassy in June, she was
called a "peasant" and to return to her "third-world country". When
she asked why he refused to look at her, he said the sight of her face
was disgusting and ugly.
It was this kind of abuse that saw the formation of Multicultural
Aotearoa, who has the support of organisations and celebrities
including Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association, the
Alliance Party and author Elizabeth Knox.
MCA is marching to Parliament today with an expected minimum of 3000
supporters. Although formed in response to National Front plans,
spokesperson Ms Mok said the march has a wider objective - to oppose
racism and to promote ethnic groups taking part in all levels of
society.
[...]
--------------------
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
Tarla
2004-10-26 19:18:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Moore
Racism is real of course, but how much of a part do you think
that the "angry victim" mentality that you often put forth
on Usenet with no provocation has to do with it?
Oh you should be SHOT! 458 lines for THIS response? FUCK YOU!
Bill Moore
2004-10-26 19:55:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tarla
Post by Bill Moore
Racism is real of course, but how much of a part do you think
that the "angry victim" mentality that you often put forth
on Usenet with no provocation has to do with it?
Oh you should be SHOT! 458 lines for THIS response? FUCK YOU!
That's not what your sister said.

But seriously, here on soc.culture.china the standard
practice is to leave the whole post in. I'll try to be
more careful and trim crossposted articles in the future.
Brian Damage
2004-10-27 05:03:09 UTC
Permalink
That's why top posting the way to go. I have been posting on BBS with
300bps modems and usenets using mainframes and I have decided that top
posting is the best to go unless you have to reply to various points.

And yes, the Dalai Lama is a fraud and a stooge for the yellow peril
people like Billy boy here and the Nazilanders down there. I wonder
when will Pauline Hanson jump into the action.
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Tarla
Post by Bill Moore
Racism is real of course, but how much of a part do you think
that the "angry victim" mentality that you often put forth
on Usenet with no provocation has to do with it?
Oh you should be SHOT! 458 lines for THIS response? FUCK YOU!
That's not what your sister said.
But seriously, here on soc.culture.china the standard
practice is to leave the whole post in. I'll try to be
more careful and trim crossposted articles in the future.
Bill Moore
2004-10-27 14:11:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Damage
That's why top posting the way to go. I have been posting on BBS with
300bps modems and usenets using mainframes and I have decided that top
posting is the best to go unless you have to reply to various points.
Actually, if you want to avoid large amounts of data, trimming is
the way to go. But since you primarily just throw insults without
any logic I guess top-posting is better.
Post by Brian Damage
And yes, the Dalai Lama is a fraud and a stooge for the yellow peril
people like Billy boy
You seem to know what everyone's motives are, and you never seem to
let the facts get oin the way. Your only tactic is to
scream "racism" at every corner. It's too bad that so many Chinese
(primarily those numbed by the CCP - don't know what your excuse is)
treat an incredibly kind man like some kind of criminal. And of course
they've never read a word of his teachings. It's like schoolboys mocking
Einstein for his funny accent.
Tarla
2004-10-27 17:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Damage
That's why top posting the way to go. I have been posting on BBS with
300bps modems and usenets using mainframes and I have decided that top
posting is the best to go unless you have to reply to various points.
No that's not a good reason to top post. Then you have to scroll
through 458 lines to figure out what the top three were responding TO.
Just fucking snip whatever you're not responding to and answer under
the point.
Geoff McCaughan
2004-10-27 21:56:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Damage
That's why top posting the way to go.
What's why top posting the way to go?
Post by Brian Damage
I have been posting on BBS with 300bps modems and usenets using mainframes
and I have decided that top posting is the best to go unless you have to
reply to various points.
You also appear to have decided that trimming your posts is some thing you
can't be bothered doing. Why?
--
Burn the land and boil the sea,
You can't take the sky from me.
Tarla
2004-10-27 05:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Moore
Post by Tarla
Post by Bill Moore
Racism is real of course, but how much of a part do you think
that the "angry victim" mentality that you often put forth
on Usenet with no provocation has to do with it?
Oh you should be SHOT! 458 lines for THIS response? FUCK YOU!
That's not what your sister said.
But seriously, here on soc.culture.china the standard
practice is to leave the whole post in. I'll try to be
more careful and trim crossposted articles in the future.
Good Gobs Almighty, how long are your threads?
Bill Moore
2004-10-27 14:14:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tarla
Post by Bill Moore
But seriously, here on soc.culture.china the standard
practice is to leave the whole post in. I'll try to be
more careful and trim crossposted articles in the future.
Good Gobs Almighty, how long are your threads?
You don't want to know. We have a lot of people who can
say almost nothing with many words ;-)
LT Lee
2004-10-27 09:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tarla
Post by Bill Moore
Racism is real of course, but how much of a part do you think
that the "angry victim" mentality that you often put forth
on Usenet with no provocation has to do with it?
Oh you should be SHOT! 458 lines for THIS response? FUCK YOU!
What's wrong with "THIS response?"
1. You are not obligated to read any line.
2. If you internet connection is slow, may be it is time for you to upgrade.

Anyway, you response is uncalled for.
Tarla
2004-10-27 19:12:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
Post by Tarla
Post by Bill Moore
Racism is real of course, but how much of a part do you think
that the "angry victim" mentality that you often put forth
on Usenet with no provocation has to do with it?
Oh you should be SHOT! 458 lines for THIS response? FUCK YOU!
What's wrong with "THIS response?"
1. You are not obligated to read any line.
2. If you internet connection is slow, may be it is time for you to upgrade.
Anyway, you response is uncalled for.
No, Mr. Lee it's not uncalled for. You crossposted this thread to many
groups. My connection rate is fine. The point is that there were
approx. 450 unnecessary lines to scroll through in order to get the
three line comment. If you don't like the way I respond, you can
always leave nz.general out of your discussions.
LT Lee
2004-10-28 20:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton
Archive-name: usenet/legends/godwin
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-Modified: October 7, 2003
Version: 1.15
URL: http://www.killfile.org/faqs/godwin.faq
Godwin's Law FAQ
-or-
"How to post about Nazis and get away with it"
One of the most famous pieces of Usenet trivia out there is "if you mention
Hitler or Nazis in a post, you've automatically ended whatever discussion
you were taking part in". Known as Godwin's Law, this rule of Usenet has a
long and sordid history on the network - and is absolutely wrong. This FAQ
is an attempt to set straight as much of the history and meaning of Godwin's
Law as possible, and hopefully encourage users to invoke it a bit more
sparingly. Of course, knowing Usenet, it won't do an ounce of good...
[Standard Disclaimers: this document assumes you have some basic knowledge
of Usenet; if you don't, go check out news.announce.newusers for a while to
gain said knowledge. Misuse of the information contained within this FAQ
is not the responsibility of the author (though he's pretty confused
exactly
how you could misuse this information). Copyright 1999-2002, Tim Skirvin,
all rights reserved, <FISH><, fnord, furrfu.]
I. The Basics
1. What is Godwin's Law?
Godwin's Law is a natural law of Usenet named after Mike Godwin
As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
2. What does it mean?
It pretty much means exactly what it says - as a Usenet thread
goes on, the chances of somebody or something being compared to a Nazi
approach one.
3. Yes, but what does it *mean*?
Aah, now *there's* the real question.
In case your head has been buried in the sand for the last sixty
years or so, the Nazis were a German political party lead by Adolf Hitler
that slaughtered upwards of ten million people that didn't meet their
standards of "ethnic purity" and set off to conquer Europe and the world
in World War II. They are generally considered the most evil group of
people to live in modern times, and to compare something or someone to
them is usually considered the gravest insult imaginable.
As a Usenet discussion gets longer it tends to get more heated; as
more heat enters the discussion, tensions get higher and people start to
insult each other over anything they can think of. Godwin's Law merely
notes that, eventually, those tensions eventually cause someone to find
the worst insults that come to mind - which will almost always include a
Nazi comparison.
4. That still doesn't answer my question. What does it *MEAN*?
The Law is generally used on Usenet as an indicator of whether a
thread has gone on too long, who's playing fair and who's just slinging
mud, and who finally gets to "win" the discussion. It has, over time,
become the closest thing to an impartial moderator that Usenet can get.
o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
wasn't necessary or germane without it necessarily being an
insult, it's probably about time for the thread to end.
o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
was vaguely related but is basically being used as an insult,
the speaker can be considered to be flaming and not debating.
o If someone brings up Nazis in any conversation that has been
going on too long for one of the parties, it can be used as
a fair excuse to end the thread and declare victory for the
other side.
5. So - *WHAT DOES IT MEAN*?
Fine, fine - it means that somebody's eventually going to say
something about the Nazis in any thread that lasts very long. When it
happens, the thread is going to start either degenerating into a long
flamewar over Nazi Germany or about Godwin's Law. Either way, the thread
is effectively over, and you can safely killfile the thread and move on.
II. What does it mean?
1. Didn't we already spend the last section talking about this?
Well, yeah, but people don't seem to get the point...
2. What happens if we're actually talking about Nazis?
Then you've already invoked Godwin's Law, and the chances are that
your thread isn't going to last all that much longer as a sane discussion.
Them's the breaks.
That isn't to say, of course, that you can't talk about Nazis and
such on Usenet - this *is* Usenet, after all, where virtually every
conversation that goes on is fairly ludicrous in the first place. It's
just going to take you a lot more effort to find real information out of
there and to avoid getting yourself off on side-threads - which you'll
eventually do regardless, but you can try to put it off.
This also applies if a thread mutates into an actual discussion of
Nazis, of course.
3. What about arguing with Neo-Nazis?
Arguing with Neo-Nazis is probably the quickest path to getting
Nazi invocations, because, well, they're actually accurate. Still, trying
to invoke Godwin's Law near a Neo-Nazi isn't really a good idea because
it's not terribly original and they'll probably get off on it anyway.
Just ignore them and occasionally publish a FAQ detailing what actually
happened during the Holocaust and such; arguing probably isn't going to
help you.
4. How can I use Godwin's Law to my advantage?
In the proper kind of flamewar, Godwin's Law can be used as a
gambit - how can you force your opponent to invoke the Law? Actually
teaching these skills is tough, of course, and is best done through
experience. Experience with chess and alt.flame are recommended.
5. What should I do if somebody else invokes Godwin's Law?
The obvious response is to call them on it, say "thread's over",
and declare victory. This is also one of the stupidest possible responses,
because it involves believing far too much in the power of a few rules that
don't say exactly what you wish they said anyway. The proper response to
an invocation is probably to simply followup with a message saying "Oh.
I'm a Nazi? Sure. Bye" and leave, and in most cases even that much of a
post is unnecessary.
6. "Hitler!" Ha! The thread is over!
Nope, doesn't work that way. Not only is it wrong to say that a
thread is over when Godwin's Law is invoked anyway (Usenet threads
virtually always outlive their usefulness), but long ago a corollary to
Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called
"Nazi Clause" is ineffectual.
Sorry, folks. Nice try, though.
7. Does Godwin's Law apply in the real world?
Actually, yeah, but usually discussions in Real Life end by
somebody wandering off in disgust before it can be invoked.
8. Are there any topics that lead directly to Godwin Invocations?
Well, yeah. Of course. Case's Corollary to the Law states "if
the subject is Heinlein or homosexuality, the probability of a Hitler/Nazi
comparison being made becomes equal to one" - but that's just an old list.
Abortion and gun control debates always lead to Nazi comparisons; talk
with a Libertarian for more than a few hours and he'll almost certainly
bring up Nazis; book-burning is pretty much considered a sub-topic of
Nazism at this point. Hell, talk about anything politically related and
you'll eventually get there.
If you're really bored, a fun game to play is Six Degrees of Godwin.
Take a topic - any topic - and see how quickly you can relate it to Nazis
using legitimate topic drift methods. For example: a discussion about
computers will eventually lead to discussions of keyboards and which are
best, followed by a lot of complaining about the Windows key on 104-key
keyboards, leading to complaints about Microsoft, forcing the standard
MS-vs-government flamewar that I'm sure you're all aware of, leading to
attacks on Microsoft's "fascist" tactics by one side or another, which
will force the other side to start talking about the differences between
fascism, capitalism, and, of course, Nazism! The fun never stops!
Appendix A: The Many Forms of Godwin's Law
"You can tell when a USENET discussion is getting old when one of the
participants drags out Hitler and the Nazis."
- Richard Sexton (http://www.vrx.net/richard/) stating what would later
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21000%40gryphon.COM&output=gplain
"Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies: As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the
probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
- Mike Godwin, first article about the topic in the Google archives,
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1991Aug18.215029.19421%40eff.org
:Godwin's Law: /prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows
longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler
approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once
this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis
has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's
Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on
thread length in those groups.
- The Jargon File (http://www.ccil.org/jargon/)
Warning: now that this FAQ has mentioned Hitler and Nazis, UseNet Rule #4
(also known as Godwin's Rule, after Mike Godwin of the EFF, sci.crypt, and
comp.org.eff.talk, a sometime foe of David Sternlight (q.v.) [even though it
was apparently in use, by Richard Sexton {q.v.} among others, before Mike's
1988 (?) net.advent; the "Godwin's" part seems to stem from "Rich Rosen's
Rules of Net.Debate, which I don't have a copy of]) says it will be coming
to
an irrelevant and off-topic end soon. Just as there will always be newbies
("It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the net" - response to a 1993 wave
of delphi.com postings on a.f.u), there will always be people who see the
net
and are repulsed because there's stuff there they don't want to see - so
they
set out to make sure noone else can, either. They invariably fail, because
there are no net.cops to enforce any such rules on UseNet; in the course of
the heated flamewar that usually follows, things escalate until either
Hitler
or Nazis (or both) put in an appearance, at which point the thread has
officially lost all relevance. People scream at each other a bit more, then
give up and go home. Bleah. "Keep your brains up top; don't be a net.cop."
This has mutated, in true UseNet fashion, to encompass *any* continuing
thread; if you mention Hitler or Nazis out of the blue, the thread is sure
to
die irrelevantly soon (and, incidentally, you've lost the argument, whatever
it was)... and every continuing thread on UseNet *must* contain such a
reference sooner or later. Invoking Rule #4 deliberately in hopes of ending
a thread, however, is doomed to failure (Quirk's Exception)...
No firm info at the present time is available on just what the other UseNet
--
Rule #nonumber: There are no hard-and-fast Rules on UseNet, only Guidelines,
which are more or less strictly enforced (and differ) from group to group;
this is why it's generally wise to read any group for a bit before ever
posting to it.
Rule #0: *There* *is* *no* *C*b*l*. There *is*, however, a net-wide
conspiracy designed solely to lead Dave Hayes (q.v.) to believe that there
is a C*b*l.
Corollary: *There* *are* *no* *pods*.
Rule #9: It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the Net.
Dave Fischer's Extension: 1993 was The Year September Never Ended [so far,
there doesn't seem to be much evidence he's wrong...]
Rule #17: Go not to UseNet for counsel, for they will say both `No' and
`Yes' and `Try another newsgroup'.
Rule #2 (John Gilmore): "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes
around it."
Rule #108 (from the soc.motss FAQ): "What will happen to me if I read
soc.motss?" "In general, nothing. (You may be informed or infuriated, of
course; but that's a standard Usenet hazard.)"
Rule #666: Old alt groups never die. They don't fade away nicely, either.
Rule #7-B: There is no topic so thoroughly covered that noone will ever
bring it up again.
Rule #90120: Applying your standards to someone else's post *will* result
in a flamewar.
Rule #1: Spellling and grammer counts. So do grace, wit, and a sense of
humor (the latter two are different), as well as a willingness to meet
odd people, but these are lesser considerations.
Rule #x^2: FAQs are asked frequently. Get used to them.
Rule #29: no rational discourse can happen in a thread cross-posted to
more than two newsgroups.
rule #6 (Eddie Saxe): don't post to misc.test unless you understand the
consequences.
Rule #547 (Arne Adolfsen): When people know they're wrong they resort to ad
hominems.
Rule #37 (Faisal Nameer Jawdat): Read the thread from the beginning, or
else.
Rule #5 (Reimer's Reason): Nobody ever ignores what they should ignore on
Usenet.
Rule $19.99 (Brad `Squid' Shapcott): The Internet *isn't* *free*. It just
has
an economy that makes no sense to capitalism.
Rule #3 ("Why 3?" "Because we felt like it"): For every opinion there is at
Rule #27 (Gary Lewandowski): "In cyberspace, *everyone* can hear you
scream."
Rule #4: (Godwin's Rule) Any off-topic mention of Hitler or Nazis will cause
the thread it is mentioned in to an irrelevant and off-topic end very soon;
every thread on UseNet has a constantly-increasing probability to contain
such a mention.
Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called "Nazi Clause"
is
ineffectual.
Case's Corollary: If the subject is Heinlein or homosexuality, the
probability of a Hitler/Nazi comparison being made becomes equal to one.
- net.legends FAQ (http://www.killfile.org/faqs/legends.html)
Appendix B: Addendums, Commentary, and Miscellaneous
1. Bentsen's Defense
"Not this time. I know Mike Godwin. Mike Godwin is a friend of mine.
Senator, you're no Mike Godwin."
This, of course, only applies to friends of Mike Godwin. The
people. If you have to ask, you don't apply. I don't apply, so don't
feel bad.
Note that this was named after Senator Lloyd Bentsen's "You're
no Jack Kennedy" line from the 1988 vice-presidential debates. And the
om
2. Godwin's Commentary
Godwin actually wrote a short article for Wired Magazine on the
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html
The article is actually more about the power and danger of memes
(thought-viruses) than about Godwin's Law itself, but it's worthwhile
reading for anybody who actually got this far into the FAQ.
3. Author's Note on the Holocaust
Over the years, I have received several emails regarding this FAQ
regarding the Holocaust itself, either disputing the holocaust or the
numbers listed in this FAQ. I'd just like to make it clear that I don't
have any particular desire to debate these points; this FAQ is meant to
point out and explain a quirk of human nature, not to codify the history
of World War II.
4. Additional Corollaries
There have been many additional corollaries and otherwise related
rules created since the net.legends FAQ codified them, and/or missed in
Any discussion between more than 2 Pagans will eventually come around
to Christianity.
- More information regarding its history would be appreciated
--
Copyright 1999-2003, Tim Skirvin
http://www.killfile.org/faqs/godwin.faq
A general misunderstanding about Hilter and the German people.
Hilter and the Holocaust did not happen in a historical vacuum. Rather
the mass murdering of the Jewish people was the result of prolong
demonizing. When demonizing the Jewish people had become fashionable,
the Jewish Holocaust was inevitable. Pre-WWII German were simply
caught by the current of history.
Post by Anton
Post by Brian Damage
"A Sunday Star-Times/BRC poll this month found 53 per cent of New
Zealanders believe that race relations are getting worse.
Just 15 per cent thought race relations were getting better, and 29
per cent thought they were unchanged.
Asians were identified by most respondents as the ethnic group which
suffered most from discrimination. Thirty-nine per cent believed
Asians were most discriminated against, 14 per cent said Pakeha faced
most discrimination, 10 per cent said Maori, 5 per cent per cent said
Pacific Islanders, and 18 per cent said other ethnic groups.
Most pessimistic about race relations were National supporters (66 per
cent) and people aged over 60 (64 per cent). "
Naziland has been and always been racist against non-whites. 1st gen
Nazilander Tze Ming Mok was told to go back to her 3rd world country
by some loser white trash that longed for the "imperial dominance" of
the past didn't even realized that many of the immigrants' home
country are more affluent than Naziland.
These losers need to know that in the 21st century being white does
not guarantee superiority over other people. Being white doesn't mean
that you deserve higher pay and choice jobs.
Naziland is going down the colonial toilet flush.
Post by LT Lee
http://www.kiwinews.co.nz/cgi-bin/editor/print.pl?article=4879
A Backgrounder On Saturday's Anti-Racism March 23 October, 2004
Derek Cheng
When first-generation Chinese New Zealander Tze Ming Mok talked to a
National Front member outside the Chinese Embassy in June, she was
called a "peasant" and to return to her "third-world country". When
she asked why he refused to look at her, he said the sight of her face
was disgusting and ugly.
It was this kind of abuse that saw the formation of Multicultural
Aotearoa, who has the support of organisations and celebrities
including Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association, the
Alliance Party and author Elizabeth Knox.
MCA is marching to Parliament today with an expected minimum of 3000
supporters. Although formed in response to National Front plans,
spokesperson Ms Mok said the march has a wider objective - to oppose
racism and to promote ethnic groups taking part in all levels of
society.
[...]
--------------------
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
LT Lee
2004-11-06 19:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
A general misunderstanding about Hilter and the German people.
Hilter and the Holocaust did not happen in a historical vacuum. Rather
the mass murdering of the Jewish people was the result of prolong
demonizing. When demonizing the Jewish people had become fashionable,
the Jewish Holocaust was inevitable. Pre-WWII German were simply
caught by the current of history.
So what da you think about the result of demonizing China?
What's the result of demonizing CCP?
They're diffeerent, ya know, though I know your comrade try
desperately to equal them.
I suppose there are difference between Dr. Wen Ho Lee and other
Chinese too. But when Wen Ho Lee was suspected for being a spy, no one
appeared to care about the difference.

"In the late 19th century, Alfred Dreyfus, a Jewish French artillery
officer, was accused of espionage. The evidence was weak but he was
convicted. His conviction included a mass media campaign, which
divided France. The Dreyfus affair was the prelude to the horrible
anti-Senitism of the 20th century. It is my hope that the Lee affair
is not the prelude of a 21 century that includes rampant anti-Chinese
racism." (Excerpted from Vroom's letter to senator Conrad Burns)
Bill Moore
2004-11-06 21:55:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
What's the result of demonizing CCP?
They're diffeerent, ya know, though I know your comrade try
desperately to equal them.
I suppose there are difference between Dr. Wen Ho Lee and other
Chinese too. But when Wen Ho Lee was suspected for being a spy, no one
appeared to care about the difference.
It's most dishonest to try to justify what the CCP does
by bringing up the shameful way Wen Ho Lee was treated.
LT Lee
2004-11-07 14:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Moore
Post by LT Lee
What's the result of demonizing CCP?
They're diffeerent, ya know, though I know your comrade try
desperately to equal them.
I suppose there are difference between Dr. Wen Ho Lee and other
Chinese too. But when Wen Ho Lee was suspected for being a spy, no one
appeared to care about the difference.
It's most dishonest to try to justify what the CCP does
by bringing up the shameful way Wen Ho Lee was treated.
You yourself can't distinguish CCP leaders from CCP members either.
ltlee1
2004-11-07 16:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
Post by Bill Moore
Post by LT Lee
What's the result of demonizing CCP?
They're diffeerent, ya know, though I know your comrade try
desperately to equal them.
I suppose there are difference between Dr. Wen Ho Lee and other
Chinese too. But when Wen Ho Lee was suspected for being a spy, no one
appeared to care about the difference.
It's most dishonest to try to justify what the CCP does
by bringing up the shameful way Wen Ho Lee was treated.
You yourself can't distinguish CCP leaders from CCP members either.
Is this yet another lame attempt to justify what the CCP
does?
You're not fooling anyone.
You wrote elsewhere that "The CCP will be happy to rape, kill or
torture to shut down people..."

Upon my challenge to be more specific on how many CCP members are
indeed happy to rape, kill or torture to shut down people among the
total of 67 million, you changed tack. You wrote,

"The CCP leadership is different from the CCP. The CCP did not decide
to carry out TAM. The CCP leadership did."

So, may be you should be more specific. May be you should write certain
CCP leaders are this or that, not "The CCP." Of course, the question is
then why you can't be more specific. My suggestion, as before is: You
don't know enough to be more specific.

To say CCP or Chinese people did this or that bad thing is always
right as long as this or that bad thing did occur. To say certain CCP
leader of member did this or that for reasons good or bad, in
contrast, requires far more specific information. The two different
approaches also allow objective observers to distinguish demonizing
from valid criticism. Demonizing tends to be based on unspecific
general statements like your "The CCP will be happy to rape, kill or
torture to shut down people..." In contrast, criticism is specific and
it is based on knowledge and understanding.

No. I am not trying to justify what certain people did. I can't.
History, or the Pen of the Autumn and Spring, would certainly gives the
final evaluation. Rather, I am trying to point out many of the so
called criticism are not criticism at all. They are attempts to
demonize, intentionally or unintentionally. In addition, such
demonizations occur before they don't know enough. This include the so
called human rights groups.

Interested readers are welcomed to read the following.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&group=soc.culture.china&selm=5eb15984.0411061310.af9ba75%40posting.google.com
The Enlightenment
2004-10-25 19:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
http://www.kiwinews.co.nz/cgi-bin/editor/print.pl?article=4879
A Backgrounder On Saturday's Anti-Racism March 23 October, 2004
Derek Cheng
When first-generation Chinese New Zealander Tze Ming Mok talked to a
National Front member outside the Chinese Embassy in June, she was
called a "peasant" and to return to her "third-world country". When
she asked why he refused to look at her, he said the sight of her face
was disgusting and ugly.
Do you think this event is really true and a complete and fair account?

Don't you think its bad form and somewhat infuriating to New Zealnders for a
chinese to be marching around the place whining that there should be more
chinese immigration?

Would not it it be better if the nearly million strong Han Chinese (and
some billion more other chinese) stayed in China and the many countries that
they now already dominate instead of ongoingly displacing the other races
and cultures of the region.

Fair is Fair.

Histrionic accounts of supposed racist abuses by pro immigration ethnic and
extreme left wing groups are also hardly credible. They rely on either
exceptions, histrionic hype-ups or fabrications. Hate crime hypes and
hoaxes are frequently created by pro immigration groups or attention seeking
individuals. A sort of Munchhausen by proxy to get attention and moral
credibillity.

Lets be serious, hardly anyone suffers any credible disadvantage becuase of
their ancestry: they just want a good whinge.
Post by LT Lee
It was this kind of abuse that saw the formation of Multicultural
Aotearoa, who has the support of organisations and celebrities
including Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association, the
Alliance Party and author Elizabeth Knox.
A bunch of time wasting parasites who get their organisational funds from
compulsory student fees. Funds supposedly meant for student welfare and
the represent student interests not pro immigration causes.

Mist of these wankers are 'status seeking': Aligning themselves with
fashionable causes to seem more moral.
Post by LT Lee
MCA is marching to Parliament today with an expected minimum of 3000
supporters. Although formed in response to National Front plans,
spokesperson Ms Mok said the march has a wider objective - to oppose
racism and to promote ethnic groups taking part in all levels of
society.
[...]
--------------------
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
LT Lee
2004-10-27 09:22:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Enlightenment
Post by LT Lee
http://www.kiwinews.co.nz/cgi-bin/editor/print.pl?article=4879
A Backgrounder On Saturday's Anti-Racism March 23 October, 2004
Derek Cheng
When first-generation Chinese New Zealander Tze Ming Mok talked to a
National Front member outside the Chinese Embassy in June, she was
called a "peasant" and to return to her "third-world country". When
she asked why he refused to look at her, he said the sight of her face
was disgusting and ugly.
Do you think this event is really true and a complete and fair account?
Why not? What described above appears to be a common experience by
many East Asians in different parts of the world. I was asked to
return to Korea [mistakenly] by an American.
Post by The Enlightenment
Don't you think its bad form and somewhat infuriating to New Zealnders for a
chinese to be marching around the place whining that there should be more
chinese immigration?
Please tell what is your criteria for good forma and bad form.
Post by The Enlightenment
Would not it it be better if the nearly million strong Han Chinese (and
some billion more other chinese) stayed in China and the many countries that
they now already dominate instead of ongoingly displacing the other races
and cultures of the region.
I don't know there is any God stipulating Han Chinese should only stay
in some places and not other places. Do you?

Please elaborate on how they displace the other races and cultures of
the region. And why the New Zealand government is allowing that?
Post by The Enlightenment
Fair is Fair.
Histrionic accounts of supposed racist abuses by pro immigration ethnic and
extreme left wing groups are also hardly credible. They rely on either
exceptions, histrionic hype-ups or fabrications. Hate crime hypes and
hoaxes are frequently created by pro immigration groups or attention seeking
individuals. A sort of Munchhausen by proxy to get attention and moral
credibillity.
Lets be serious, hardly anyone suffers any credible disadvantage becuase of
their ancestry: they just want a good whinge.
A recent survey on New Zealanders indicated that 53% of them believed
that the Asians suffered most from discrimination. Are there any
reasons that I should believe you and not the poll results?
Post by The Enlightenment
Post by LT Lee
It was this kind of abuse that saw the formation of Multicultural
Aotearoa, who has the support of organisations and celebrities
including Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association, the
Alliance Party and author Elizabeth Knox.
A bunch of time wasting parasites who get their organisational funds from
compulsory student fees. Funds supposedly meant for student welfare and
the represent student interests not pro immigration causes.
Mist of these wankers are 'status seeking': Aligning themselves with
fashionable causes to seem more moral.
Post by LT Lee
MCA is marching to Parliament today with an expected minimum of 3000
supporters. Although formed in response to National Front plans,
spokesperson Ms Mok said the march has a wider objective - to oppose
racism and to promote ethnic groups taking part in all levels of
society.
[...]
--------------------
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
The Enlightenment
2004-10-28 11:02:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
Post by LT Lee
http://www.kiwinews.co.nz/cgi-bin/editor/print.pl?article=4879
A Backgrounder On Saturday's Anti-Racism March 23 October, 2004
Derek Cheng
When first-generation Chinese New Zealander Tze Ming Mok talked to a
National Front member outside the Chinese Embassy in June, she was
called a "peasant" and to return to her "third-world country". When
she asked why he refused to look at her, he said the sight of her face
was disgusting and ugly.
Do you think this event is really true and a complete and fair account?
Why not? What described above appears to be a common experience by
many East Asians in different parts of the world. I was asked to
return to Korea [mistakenly] by an American.
Twaddle.

The experience is far from common (speaking to 'normal' chinese) it would
occur typically once to a small proportion of Chinese and probably only in a
heated momment.

Ofcourse if you are an obnoxious sinocentric activist promoting 'china' and
chinese immigration' and forms of 'paranoia' as you seem to be then you
could expect it more often.

Not without justification I might add.
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
Don't you think its bad form and somewhat infuriating to New Zealnders for a
chinese to be marching around the place whining that there should be more
chinese immigration?
Please tell what is your criteria for good form and bad form.
An irrelevent question or deflection at the very least.

An example of bad form is to cry poor, drop into your your neighbourse
house, take advantage of his hospitality and insist that the house be
changed to accomodate you becuase its only fair.
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
Would not it it be better if the nearly million strong Han Chinese (and
some billion more other chinese) stayed in China and the many countries that
they now already dominate instead of ongoingly displacing the other races
and cultures of the region.
I don't know there is any God stipulating Han Chinese should only stay
in some places and not other places. Do you.
Please elaborate on how they displace the other races and cultures of
the region. And why the New Zealand government is allowing that?
Han chinese should, in general, stay withing their present ancestral
homelands which they have been very succesfull in populating and dominating
to their needs. Likewise Europeans should do the same.

Your presuppostion that you have the 'right' to immigrate in any numbers
anywhere in the world and occupy the resources and space of that land is in
conflict of the 'right' of other peoples to cultural self determination and
the stewardship of the environment and resources of their own country and
the create a place for their children and descendents rather than yours.


While assertions of ethnic interest by Europeans are stigmatized, assertions
of ethnic interest by other groups are utterly commonplace.

Anti-Racist really means both "anti-white" and in your case also "pro
chinese" though you reframe it as 'anti-racism' you are in a political
battle to pathologize the ethnic interests of European Australians and NZ's
so as to advance your own.
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
Fair is Fair.
Histrionic accounts of supposed racist abuses by pro immigration ethnic and
extreme left wing groups are also hardly credible. They rely on either
exceptions, histrionic hype-ups or fabrications. Hate crime hypes and
hoaxes are frequently created by pro immigration groups or attention seeking
individuals. A sort of Munchhausen by proxy to get attention and moral
credibillity.
Lets be serious, hardly anyone suffers any credible disadvantage becuase of
their ancestry: they just want a good whinge.
A recent survey on New Zealanders indicated that 53% of them believed
that the Asians suffered most from discrimination. Are there any
reasons that I should believe you and not the poll results?
Plenty.

These ad nauseum 'racism' surveys are as biased and misdirected as the 'push
polling' we see before elections. Their purpose is not to ascertain
information or facts but to change public opinion and perception and they
always seem to be funded by some ethnic group or profession carear
diversitycrat buerocracy.

Virtually any survey result can be obtained with the correct phrasing and
this can be presented as in a way to support almost any objective.

You merely publicise the 'survey' so as to actually try and change public
opinion.

It is a form of propaganda. The black propaganda being in this case that
there is widespread severe racist discrimination against 'chinese' or
'asians' and that this requires special favours and advantages for them
funds for anti-racism diversitycrats

The techniques were developed by a bunch of ethncentric left wing Jews
calling themselves "the frankfurt school" and the theory they developed is
called 'critical theory'.

Incidently I love that nameless "A recent survey on New Zealanders indicated
that 53%.....blah blah blah" that you quote.

The most famous of these is the American ADL anti-semtism survey which
always finds a considerable percentage of anti semitic 'biggotry'. They
survey will of course never find the absence of anti-semtism.
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
Post by LT Lee
It was this kind of abuse that saw the formation of Multicultural
Aotearoa, who has the support of organisations and celebrities
including Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association, the
Alliance Party and author Elizabeth Knox.
A bunch of time wasting parasites who get their organisational funds from
compulsory student fees. Funds supposedly meant for student welfare and
the represent student interests not pro immigration causes.
Most of these wankers are 'status seeking': Aligning themselves with
fashionable causes to seem more moral.
Post by LT Lee
MCA is marching to Parliament today with an expected minimum of 3000
supporters. Although formed in response to National Front plans,
spokesperson Ms Mok said the march has a wider objective - to oppose
racism and to promote ethnic groups taking part in all levels of
society.
[...]
--------------------
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
LT Lee
2004-10-28 20:06:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Enlightenment
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
Post by LT Lee
http://www.kiwinews.co.nz/cgi-bin/editor/print.pl?article=4879
A Backgrounder On Saturday's Anti-Racism March 23 October, 2004
Derek Cheng
When first-generation Chinese New Zealander Tze Ming Mok talked to a
National Front member outside the Chinese Embassy in June, she was
called a "peasant" and to return to her "third-world country". When
she asked why he refused to look at her, he said the sight of her face
was disgusting and ugly.
Do you think this event is really true and a complete and fair account?
Why not? What described above appears to be a common experience by
many East Asians in different parts of the world. I was asked to
return to Korea [mistakenly] by an American.
Twaddle.
The experience is far from common (speaking to 'normal' chinese) it would
occur typically once to a small proportion of Chinese and probably only in a
heated momment.
How about your own statement "Would not it it be better if the nearly
million strong Han Chinese (and some billion more other chinese)
stayed in China and the many countries that they now already
dominate..."?

Are you not saying more or less the same thing? I don't think I had a
heated discussion with you. Did you have heated discussion with the
nearly milion strong Han Chinese?
Post by The Enlightenment
Ofcourse if you are an obnoxious sinocentric activist promoting 'china' and
chinese immigration' and forms of 'paranoia' as you seem to be then you
could expect it more often.
I am not an obnoxious sincocentric activist promoting china and
chinese immigration. I haven't yet to meet any. In contrast, I know
many Chinese students who had left their parents to far away countries
to learn from the westerners.
Post by The Enlightenment
Not without justification I might add.
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
Don't you think its bad form and somewhat infuriating to New Zealnders
for a
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
chinese to be marching around the place whining that there should be
more
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
chinese immigration?
Please tell what is your criteria for good form and bad form.
An irrelevent question or deflection at the very least.
An example of bad form is to cry poor, drop into your your neighbourse
house, take advantage of his hospitality and insist that the house be
changed to accomodate you becuase its only fair.
Don't know what you are talking about. Those protestors are New
Zealanders. Where they are from originally is irrelevant. The only
relevant question is this: Are their protest illegal according to the
New Zealand law?
Post by The Enlightenment
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
Would not it it be better if the nearly million strong Han Chinese (and
some billion more other chinese) stayed in China and the many countries
that
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
they now already dominate instead of ongoingly displacing the other
races
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
and cultures of the region.
I don't know there is any God stipulating Han Chinese should only stay
in some places and not other places. Do you.
Please elaborate on how they displace the other races and cultures of
the region. And why the New Zealand government is allowing that?
Han chinese should, in general, stay withing their present ancestral
homelands which they have been very succesfull in populating and dominating
to their needs. Likewise Europeans should do the same.
My understanding is that all people are originally from Africa.
Post by The Enlightenment
Your presuppostion that you have the 'right' to immigrate in any numbers
anywhere in the world and occupy the resources and space of that land is in
conflict of the 'right' of other peoples to cultural self determination and
the stewardship of the environment and resources of their own country and
the create a place for their children and descendents rather than yours.
I did not assert any right. Rather, I am challenging those who insist
they have to right to expel other people simple because they belong to
a different race or ethnicity.
Post by The Enlightenment
While assertions of ethnic interest by Europeans are stigmatized, assertions
of ethnic interest by other groups are utterly commonplace.
Anti-Racist really means both "anti-white" and in your case also "pro
chinese" though you reframe it as 'anti-racism' you are in a political
battle to pathologize the ethnic interests of European Australians and NZ's
so as to advance your own.
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
Fair is Fair.
Histrionic accounts of supposed racist abuses by pro immigration ethnic
and
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
extreme left wing groups are also hardly credible. They rely on either
exceptions, histrionic hype-ups or fabrications. Hate crime hypes and
hoaxes are frequently created by pro immigration groups or attention
seeking
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
individuals. A sort of Munchhausen by proxy to get attention and moral
credibillity.
Lets be serious, hardly anyone suffers any credible disadvantage
becuase of
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
their ancestry: they just want a good whinge.
A recent survey on New Zealanders indicated that 53% of them believed
that the Asians suffered most from discrimination. Are there any
reasons that I should believe you and not the poll results?
Plenty.
These ad nauseum 'racism' surveys are as biased and misdirected as the 'push
polling' we see before elections. Their purpose is not to ascertain
information or facts but to change public opinion and perception and they
always seem to be funded by some ethnic group or profession carear
diversitycrat buerocracy.
It will be helpful if you can elaborate on how the surveys are biased
or misdirected. Otherwise, there is nothing wrong to use poll results
which are factual to change public opinion and perception. Concerning
who have funded the survey, please tell how will that affect the
outcome? Do you believe that the average New Zealanders will answer
the same survey differently if the survey were funded by somebody
else?
Post by The Enlightenment
Virtually any survey result can be obtained with the correct phrasing and
this can be presented as in a way to support almost any objective.
Sure. But still, it is up to you to show the surveys were done in this
fashion. Or are you of the opinion that no surveys should be believed?
Post by The Enlightenment
You merely publicise the 'survey' so as to actually try and change public
opinion.
It is a form of propaganda. The black propaganda being in this case that
there is widespread severe racist discrimination against 'chinese' or
'asians' and that this requires special favours and advantages for them
funds for anti-racism diversitycrats
The techniques were developed by a bunch of ethncentric left wing Jews
calling themselves "the frankfurt school" and the theory they developed is
called 'critical theory'.
Incidently I love that nameless "A recent survey on New Zealanders indicated
that 53%.....blah blah blah" that you quote.
Here is the link:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3074433a11,00.html

"A Sunday Star-Times/BRC poll this month found 53 per cent of New
Zealanders believe that race relations are getting worse.

Just 15 per cent thought race relations were getting better, and 29
per cent thought they were unchanged.

Asians were identified by most respondents as the ethnic group which
suffered most from discrimination. Thirty-nine per cent believed
Asians were most discriminated against, 14 per cent said Pakeha faced
most discrimination, 10 per cent said Maori, 5 per cent per cent said
Pacific Islanders, and 18 per cent said other ethnic groups."

However, I made a mistake on the percentage of respondents who
identified Asians as most discriminated against. The correct
percentage should be 39%.
Post by The Enlightenment
The most famous of these is the American ADL anti-semtism survey which
always finds a considerable percentage of anti semitic 'biggotry'. They
survey will of course never find the absence of anti-semtism.
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
Post by LT Lee
It was this kind of abuse that saw the formation of Multicultural
Aotearoa, who has the support of organisations and celebrities
including Victoria University of Wellington Students' Association, the
Alliance Party and author Elizabeth Knox.
A bunch of time wasting parasites who get their organisational funds
from
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
compulsory student fees. Funds supposedly meant for student welfare
and
Post by LT Lee
Post by The Enlightenment
the represent student interests not pro immigration causes.
Most of these wankers are 'status seeking': Aligning themselves with
fashionable causes to seem more moral.
Post by LT Lee
MCA is marching to Parliament today with an expected minimum of 3000
supporters. Although formed in response to National Front plans,
spokesperson Ms Mok said the march has a wider objective - to oppose
racism and to promote ethnic groups taking part in all levels of
society.
[...]
--------------------
Post by Clone Gunman
While China continues to oppress the people of Tibet, New Zealand
sportspeople must put aside any selfish quest for glory at the 2008
propaganda exercise which will take place in Beijing.
http://no2008china.tripod.com
francispoon
2004-10-29 02:17:26 UTC
Permalink
"The Enlightenment" <***@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:<Jk4gd.1788
snipped...
Post by The Enlightenment
Han chinese should,
*Who* decides they or any other race *should* do this and that?

in general, stay withing their present ancestral
Post by The Enlightenment
homelands which they have been very succesfull in populating and dominating
to their needs. Likewise Europeans should do the same.
*Who* decides that? Are you now suggesting that all descendants of
the Europeans should go back to Europe and that of the other races
should also go back to the cradle of their ethnic origin?
Post by The Enlightenment
Your presuppostion that you have the 'right'
Wong way to put it! The 'right' to immigrate is given by the
receiving nation.
Post by The Enlightenment
to immigrate in any numbers
Wrong again! The number of immigrants accepted is also determined by
the receiving country.
Post by The Enlightenment
anywhere in the world
Wrong again! Immigrants go wherever the are accepted.
Post by The Enlightenment
and occupy the resources
Wrong again! To occupy is to take as ownership while to help develop
is a request by the receiving country to the immigrants to do so.
Post by The Enlightenment
and space of that land is in
conflict of the 'right' of other peoples to cultural self determination
The coming of immigrants to NZ and Oz has never interfered with the
'right' of those who 'arrived earlier'. As a matter of fact, the
inflow of immigrants has made the on-going culture more colorful and
exciting. Each and every culture in the world has been in a constant
process of changing and becoming. You are assuming a culture is a
static thing.
Post by The Enlightenment
and
the stewardship of the environment and resources of their own country
Wrong again! It is the global demand that determines the "stewardship
of the environment and resources". It is the coming of foreign
resources that has helped the indigenous 'better develop' their
resources. Look at how Noranda Mine of Canada is being considered by
the Chinese buyer as a buy-out candidate. No one forces the
shareholders of this Canadian mining company to sell. But they want
to have a higher price and that is why they talk to the Chinese.
Post by The Enlightenment
and
the create a place for their children and descendents rather than yours.
By your silly reasoning, you and your family should pack up and go
back to Europe where your ancestors came from.
Post by The Enlightenment
While assertions of ethnic interest by Europeans are stigmatized, assertions
of ethnic interest by other groups are utterly commonplace.
Anti-Racist really means both "anti-white" and in your case also "pro
chinese" though you reframe it as 'anti-racism' you are in a political
battle to pathologize the ethnic interests of European Australians and NZ's
so as to advance your own.
By the same token, you are not pathologizing the ethnic interests of
the native aboriginals but the ethnic interests of European
Australians and NZ's.
_Fair is Fair_ is a childish statement of zero intellectual substance.

FP
unknown
2004-10-29 14:53:34 UTC
Permalink
Yawn !
--
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Australia Mining Pioneer
Discoverer & Legal Owner of Telfer, Kintyre & Nifty Mines
The Great Sandy Desert.of Australia
Discoverer of the South Atlantic Submarine Gold Placers
( 40 Millions Tons estimate )
FOUNDER OF THE TRUE GEOLOGY

"THE GOLDEN RULE"
"Gold and Intrigue in the Desert"
"The true story of the discovery of the Telfer gold mine"
Author : Bob Sheppard, President of the Australian Prospectors' Union
Author's contact & web page : www.tnet.com.au/~warrigal/
Order from : Hesperian Press, PO Box 317 Victoria Park, 6979 W.Australia.
AUS 40.00 + post

Published in Perth 15th December 2002

* The Greatest Australian Mining Covered Up Swindle Of The 20th Century
http://membres.lycos.fr/jpturcaud/
( Scuttled on Oct 29th 2003 under the Mining Criminals' cheers, and having
reached over 92 Millions Hits )

* The True Geology
http://membres.lycos.fr/jpt
( Was also wound up on Oct 29th 2003 due to plagiarism hazards )


~~Ignorance Is The Cosmic Sin, The One Never Forgiven ! ~~









"snip"
francispoon
2004-10-28 00:15:38 UTC
Permalink
"The Enlightenment" <***@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:<Oicfd.19$%
snipped...
Post by The Enlightenment
Would not it it be better if the nearly million strong Han Chinese (and
some billion more other chinese) stayed in China and the many countries that
they now already dominate instead of ongoingly displacing the other races
and cultures of the region.
Fair is Fair.
I think it would be the fairest if all the non-natives in New Zealand,
including the people whose ancestors came from Europe, left NZ. That
means you have to leave Oz, unless you could produce the certificate
of ownership of Oz. You see, something is not necessarily true simply
by way of its being *said*. Who are you to call yourself a native of
Oz while others are immigrants? Fair is Fair is a childish statement
of no substance at all. Whoever that could make the most contribution
to a land deserves to stay in that land.


FP
francispoon
2004-10-29 01:57:28 UTC
Permalink
"The Enlightenment" <***@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:<Oicfd.19$%
snipped...
Post by The Enlightenment
Would not it it be better
For who?

if the nearly million strong Han Chinese (and
Post by The Enlightenment
some billion more other chinese) stayed in China and the many countries that
they now already dominate instead of ongoingly displacing the other races
and cultures of the region.
Displacing means one comes in and the other one disappears. Is this
the case of just a melting pot thing?


FP
==================
francispoon
2004-10-29 01:57:32 UTC
Permalink
"The Enlightenment" <***@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:<Oicfd.19$%
snipped...
Post by The Enlightenment
Would not it it be better
For who?

if the nearly million strong Han Chinese (and
Post by The Enlightenment
some billion more other chinese) stayed in China and the many countries that
they now already dominate instead of ongoingly displacing the other races
and cultures of the region.
Displacing means one comes in and the other one disappears. Is this
the case of just a melting pot thing?


FP
==================
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...