Discussion:
Brash Attempts to Make Virtue of Lying to Voters
(too old to reply)
steve
2004-06-02 12:39:37 UTC
Permalink
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't find
out what stories he's telling US officials.

Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any comments
recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous meetings would
only have shown he was a straight dealer and a man of integrity.

But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to conceal his
continuing deceipt.

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
Col:
2004-06-02 18:46:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't find
out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any comments
recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous meetings would
only have shown he was a straight dealer and a man of integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to conceal his
continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
I haven't seen Clark tendering notes of her comments recorded at meetings with
Chinese officials Steve .

Interesting news release though. Are labour only 8% behind National ?
--
Col

Col's law.
Thinly sliced cabbage..
Sue Bilstein
2004-06-02 20:39:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Col:
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't find
out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any comments
recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous meetings would
only have shown he was a straight dealer and a man of integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to conceal his
continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
I haven't seen Clark tendering notes of her comments recorded at meetings with
Chinese officials Steve .
Interesting news release though. Are labour only 8% behind National ?
But I have seen Clark tendering a selected note of Brash's meeting
with US senators, which is why Brash is not taking her spies with him.
A correct and understandable decision.
steve
2004-06-03 07:56:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue Bilstein
But I have seen Clark tendering a selected note of Brash's meeting
with US senators, which is why Brash is not taking her spies with him.
A correct and understandable decision.
....if he wasn't saying one thing to them and another ot the NZ public,
there would have been no problem.

The notes would have revealed Brash as a man of integrity.

The same goes for Clark or Peters or whoever.

They should not be announcing one policy....and then telling overseas
politicians something else.

No politician should.

When they are caught out, they should be rubbished accordingly.
WeeWillyWonka
2004-06-03 08:17:10 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:56:07 +1200, steve
Post by steve
They should not be announcing one policy....and then telling overseas
politicians something else.
No politician should.
When they are caught out, they should be rubbished accordingly.
You're right, Steve, but the issue is "getting caught". Politicians
routinely say different things to different audiences, and Brash made
the mistake of trusting Labour to uphold a mutual convention. Kind of
like vote matching, where you can absent yourself from a vote in
tandem with an opposition figure -- you are opponents, but play by a
common set of rules. Labour chose to obviate that rule on this
occasion, so Brash is acknowledging that that common rule has been set
aside.

Dropping the nuclear-power ban is a good idea, and now that a poll has
shown that NZ'ers support this, perhaps Brash will go public with it.

willy
steve
2004-06-03 08:52:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by WeeWillyWonka
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:56:07 +1200, steve
Post by steve
They should not be announcing one policy....and then telling overseas
politicians something else.
No politician should.
When they are caught out, they should be rubbished accordingly.
You're right, Steve, but the issue is "getting caught". Politicians
routinely say different things to different audiences, and Brash made
the mistake of trusting Labour to uphold a mutual convention. Kind of
like vote matching, where you can absent yourself from a vote in
tandem with an opposition figure -- you are opponents, but play by a
common set of rules. Labour chose to obviate that rule on this
occasion, so Brash is acknowledging that that common rule has been set
aside.
I'd prefer they all have independent notes taken...and published quarterly.

That's how it should be...IMHO.
Post by WeeWillyWonka
Dropping the nuclear-power ban is a good idea, and now that a poll has
shown that NZ'ers support this, perhaps Brash will go public with it.
willy
The poll said some interesting things including:

"The poll found 58 per cent against any easing of the ships ban to
improve relations with the US, and 34.4 per cent in favour of change."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2929411a11,00.html
WeeWillyWonka
2004-06-03 09:06:54 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:52:56 +1200, steve
Post by steve
"The poll found 58 per cent against any easing of the ships ban to
improve relations with the US, and 34.4 per cent in favour of change."
This is journalese for: People say they don't want to change the
policy just for the reason of appeasing the USA. I would have said
the same. The policy should be changed because it is daft to oppose
nuclear power in the epoch of global warming, when it is more harmful
to spew vast quantities of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than to
create a little bit of nuclear waste which can be contained in a small
protected space.

However, the headline says "Most New Zealanders would back easing the
law banning visits from nuclear-propelled ships if the United States
promised not to send any warships", and this is crazy as all USA
nuclear-propelled ships are warships. Where do the crazy journalists
get their ideas from?

willy
steve
2004-06-04 08:56:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by WeeWillyWonka
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:52:56 +1200, steve
Post by steve
"The poll found 58 per cent against any easing of the ships ban to
improve relations with the US, and 34.4 per cent in favour of change."
This is journalese for: People say they don't want to change the
policy just for the reason of appeasing the USA.
That is the result of the survey question....not "journalese".
Post by WeeWillyWonka
I would have said
the same. The policy should be changed because it is daft to oppose
nuclear power in the epoch of global warming, when it is more harmful
to spew vast quantities of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than to
create a little bit of nuclear waste which can be contained in a small
protected space.
....for 10,000 years?

Show me one building that is 10,000 years old that is in mint condition.

Then, maybe, I'll agree with you.
Post by WeeWillyWonka
However, the headline says "Most New Zealanders would back easing the
law banning visits from nuclear-propelled ships if the United States
promised not to send any warships", and this is crazy as all USA
nuclear-propelled ships are warships. Where do the crazy journalists
get their ideas from?
It wasn't the journalists.....that was the survey question.
Patrick Dunford
2004-06-04 09:50:33 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@news.orcon.net.nz>, ***@mozilla-tbird0.6.org.nz
says...
Post by steve
Post by WeeWillyWonka
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:52:56 +1200, steve
Post by steve
"The poll found 58 per cent against any easing of the ships ban to
improve relations with the US, and 34.4 per cent in favour of change."
This is journalese for: People say they don't want to change the
policy just for the reason of appeasing the USA.
That is the result of the survey question....not "journalese".
Post by WeeWillyWonka
I would have said
the same. The policy should be changed because it is daft to oppose
nuclear power in the epoch of global warming, when it is more harmful
to spew vast quantities of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than to
create a little bit of nuclear waste which can be contained in a small
protected space.
....for 10,000 years?
Show me one building that is 10,000 years old that is in mint condition.
In geological formations that have stood for millions of years, fool.
mark
2004-06-08 00:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Brash Attempts to Make Virtue of Lying to Voters
Newsgroups: nz.general
says...
Post by steve
Post by WeeWillyWonka
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:52:56 +1200, steve
Post by steve
"The poll found 58 per cent against any easing of the ships ban to
improve relations with the US, and 34.4 per cent in favour of change."
This is journalese for: People say they don't want to change the
policy just for the reason of appeasing the USA.
That is the result of the survey question....not "journalese".
Post by WeeWillyWonka
I would have said
the same. The policy should be changed because it is daft to oppose
nuclear power in the epoch of global warming, when it is more harmful
to spew vast quantities of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than to
create a little bit of nuclear waste which can be contained in a small
protected space.
....for 10,000 years?
Show me one building that is 10,000 years old that is in mint condition.
In geological formations that have stood for millions of years, fool.
Don't be silly. The best place to dispose of depleted uranium is whichever
country the US army happens to be invading next week :-)

WeeWillyWonka
2004-06-04 13:08:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Post by WeeWillyWonka
This is journalese for: People say they don't want to change the
policy just for the reason of appeasing the USA.
That is the result of the survey question....not "journalese".
It was a Herald-Digipoll survey, so journalists framed the question,
duh.
Post by steve
Show me one building that is 10,000 years old that is in mint condition.
Caves. And that's what they use for disposal, duh.
Post by steve
Post by WeeWillyWonka
Where do the crazy journalists get their ideas from?
It wasn't the journalists.....that was the survey question.
Asked by journalists, duh.

willy
DPF
2004-06-05 11:31:20 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:52:56 +1200, in nz.general steve
Post by steve
Post by WeeWillyWonka
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:56:07 +1200, steve
Post by steve
They should not be announcing one policy....and then telling overseas
politicians something else.
No politician should.
When they are caught out, they should be rubbished accordingly.
You're right, Steve, but the issue is "getting caught". Politicians
routinely say different things to different audiences, and Brash made
the mistake of trusting Labour to uphold a mutual convention. Kind of
like vote matching, where you can absent yourself from a vote in
tandem with an opposition figure -- you are opponents, but play by a
common set of rules. Labour chose to obviate that rule on this
occasion, so Brash is acknowledging that that common rule has been set
aside.
I'd prefer they all have independent notes taken...and published quarterly.
That's how it should be...IMHO.
Post by WeeWillyWonka
Dropping the nuclear-power ban is a good idea, and now that a poll has
shown that NZ'ers support this, perhaps Brash will go public with it.
willy
"The poll found 58 per cent against any easing of the ships ban to
improve relations with the US, and 34.4 per cent in favour of change."
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2929411a11,00.html
And those figures changed when the Creech proposition was put to them.

DPF


--
David Farrar
e-mail: ***@farrar.com
blog: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz
msn: ***@hotmail.com
icq: 29964527
steve
2004-06-05 12:30:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by DPF
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:52:56 +1200, in nz.general steve
....
Post by DPF
Post by steve
"The poll found 58 per cent against any easing of the ships ban to
improve relations with the US, and 34.4 per cent in favour of change."
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2929411a11,00.html
And those figures changed when the Creech proposition was put to them.
DPF
That the law be repealed, but the US promise to never send any nuke
ships here?

Sounds to me like people don't want nuke ships.....whatever sophistry is
employed to trick them into saying otherwise.

What did they say to the question that asked their views if the US
definitely WOULD send nuke ships?

Oh....no one asked.
JD
2004-06-05 14:29:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
That the law
Talking about law...
Post by steve
Simpleton would apply to the person who seems unaware that the modern
era is characterised by the rule of law....
When did this modern era begin?
Sue Bilstein
2004-06-03 09:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by WeeWillyWonka
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:56:07 +1200, steve
Post by steve
They should not be announcing one policy....and then telling overseas
politicians something else.
No politician should.
When they are caught out, they should be rubbished accordingly.
You're right, Steve, but the issue is "getting caught". Politicians
routinely say different things to different audiences, and Brash made
the mistake of trusting Labour to uphold a mutual convention. Kind of
like vote matching, where you can absent yourself from a vote in
tandem with an opposition figure -- you are opponents, but play by a
common set of rules. Labour chose to obviate that rule on this
occasion, so Brash is acknowledging that that common rule has been set
aside.
Dropping the nuclear-power ban is a good idea, and now that a poll has
shown that NZ'ers support this, perhaps Brash will go public with it.
Not exactly. The poll results on the front page of the Herald today
said that there was a majority in favour of dropping the nuclear-power
ban if and only if the Yanks would agree never to actually send
nuclear-powered ships here.
WeeWillyWonka
2004-06-03 09:27:37 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 21:15:52 +1200, Sue Bilstein
Post by Sue Bilstein
Not exactly. The poll results on the front page of the Herald today
said that there was a majority in favour of dropping the nuclear-power
ban if and only if the Yanks would agree never to actually send
nuclear-powered ships here.
Precisely. What kind of idiot questions do these journalists ask? It
would be a relief to have a straight poll which asked ordinary
sensible questions such as:

(1) Should NZ allow that nuclear power is OK?
(2) Should our electricial grid be given priority over Maori claims?
(3) Should the death penalty be restored for heinous murders?

etc.

willy
John B
2004-06-03 09:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Post by Sue Bilstein
But I have seen Clark tendering a selected note of Brash's meeting
with US senators, which is why Brash is not taking her spies with
him. A correct and understandable decision.
....if he wasn't saying one thing to them and another ot the NZ
public, there would have been no problem.
The notes would have revealed Brash as a man of integrity.
The same goes for Clark or Peters or whoever.
They should not be announcing one policy....and then telling overseas
politicians something else.
No politician should.
When they are caught out, they should be rubbished accordingly.
Please don't be so naive to think that's what politicians *don't* do.

--
John B
steve
2004-06-04 08:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B
Post by steve
Post by Sue Bilstein
But I have seen Clark tendering a selected note of Brash's meeting
with US senators, which is why Brash is not taking her spies with
him. A correct and understandable decision.
....if he wasn't saying one thing to them and another ot the NZ
public, there would have been no problem.
The notes would have revealed Brash as a man of integrity.
The same goes for Clark or Peters or whoever.
They should not be announcing one policy....and then telling overseas
politicians something else.
No politician should.
When they are caught out, they should be rubbished accordingly.
Please don't be so naive to think that's what politicians *don't* do.
Naivity has nothing to do with it. You may accept your politcians lying
to you. More fool you.

I don't accept it....and will deal with them accordingly.

They are our representatives and exercise the power WE give them.

How dare they lie to us....their employers and source of their power!
John B
2004-06-04 09:06:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Post by John B
Post by steve
Post by Sue Bilstein
But I have seen Clark tendering a selected note of Brash's meeting
with US senators, which is why Brash is not taking her spies with
him. A correct and understandable decision.
....if he wasn't saying one thing to them and another ot the NZ
public, there would have been no problem.
The notes would have revealed Brash as a man of integrity.
The same goes for Clark or Peters or whoever.
They should not be announcing one policy....and then telling
overseas politicians something else.
No politician should.
When they are caught out, they should be rubbished accordingly.
Please don't be so naive to think that's what politicians *don't* do.
Naivity has nothing to do with it. You may accept your politcians
lying to you. More fool you.
I don't accept it....and will deal with them accordingly.
They are our representatives and exercise the power WE give them.
Speak for yourself. They aren't my representatives. I never voted for any of
them.
Post by steve
How dare they lie to us....their employers and source of their power!
You are to blame because you fucking vote them in. Why give them your power if
you don't like what they do?

--
John B
steve
2004-06-05 12:35:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B
Post by steve
Post by John B
Post by steve
Post by Sue Bilstein
But I have seen Clark tendering a selected note of Brash's meeting
with US senators, which is why Brash is not taking her spies with
him. A correct and understandable decision.
....if he wasn't saying one thing to them and another ot the NZ
public, there would have been no problem.
The notes would have revealed Brash as a man of integrity.
The same goes for Clark or Peters or whoever.
They should not be announcing one policy....and then telling
overseas politicians something else.
No politician should.
When they are caught out, they should be rubbished accordingly.
Please don't be so naive to think that's what politicians *don't* do.
Naivity has nothing to do with it. You may accept your politcians
lying to you. More fool you.
I don't accept it....and will deal with them accordingly.
They are our representatives and exercise the power WE give them.
Speak for yourself. They aren't my representatives. I never voted for any of
them.
Oh! You're one of those frssh-out=of-the-egg types!!!

.....denying government any legitimacy because noone asked YOU to
re-approve all constitutional and legal arrangements developed over
previous centuries.

Off you go to remedial studies on NZ Government and constitution.
Post by John B
Post by steve
How dare they lie to us....their employers and source of their power!
You are to blame because you fucking vote them in. Why give them your power if
you don't like what they do?
John....I have no time or patience for numb-skulls like you who pretend
the world didn't exist before they appeared.

I voted for the greens and I very much like what they do.

At least they don't lie....like Labour and the Nats and ACT and Peter
Dunne and Winston First.....

(Prove me wrong if you can).
Redbaiter
2004-06-05 12:45:31 UTC
Permalink
steve says
Post by steve
I voted for the greens and I very much like what they do.
At least they don't lie....like Labour and the Nats and ACT and Peter
Dunne and Winston First.....
(Prove me wrong if you can).
Easy.. too easy. The Greens are the biggest liars in
Parliament...

From Bioscience News:
------------------------
In 1993, journalist (now ACT MP) Deborah Coddington published an
article in North and South magazine entitled Little Green Lies.
She exposed some of the fallacies in arguments about the ozone
layer, climate change, recycling and genetic engineering. For
her pains she received death threats.

More than 10 years later, not much seems to have changed. Green
Party co-leader Jeanette Fitzsimons’ first response to the news
that Bjorn Lomborg, author of The Skeptical Environmentalist,
was visiting New Zealand last year (as a guest of the Business
Roundtable) was to say he had been “discredited” by a Danish
scientific body. “He plays fast and loose with the scientific
facts”, she asserted. She didn’t bother to identify any of the
alleged errors.

A moron in a hurry could have seen that the initial charges were
absurd. When they were damningly overturned on appeal late last
year, I called on Ms Fitzsimons to publicly withdraw her
comments and apologise. To the best of my knowledge she did not
have the integrity to respond. Greenpeace founder Patrick Moore
has recently written about the “intellectual and moral
bankruptcy of the environmentalists’ campaign against
biotechnology.

Greenpeace activists prevented him making the case to a
conference that allowing genetically modified rice would prevent
blindness for half a million children in Asia and Africa each
year. “How is it”, Moore wrote, “that these charlatans continue
to stymie progress on so many fronts when their arguments are
nothing more than wild, scary speculation?”

An egregious example is the ‘scientist’ Stephen Schneider, once
a proponent of global cooling and more recently of global
warming. He is notorious for making the statement that to
capture public attention, scientists “have to offer up scary
scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little
mention of any doubts we might have.” In a recent letter to me,
one of the world’s most distinguished climate scientists wrote:
“The field of climate science is almost totally corrupt.”

Outside the environmental field, the respect of many Greens for
truth and accuracy is no better. MP Metiria Turei recently wrote
that New Zealand is “one of the few nations that allows the
ready sale of our land to international interests”. This is
nonsense: our rules are similar to those of many OECD countries,
and Britain has no restrictions on foreign investment in land at
all.

The claims of doom-mongers like Paul Ehrlich have been exposed
as bogus for more than 30 years, yet people still listen to
them. I cannot understand why. Charlatanism does a grave
disservice to the environmental cause. As Lomborg argues, most
environmental trends are going in the right direction, but that
doesn’t mean there are no problems. In New Zealand, traffic
congestion in Auckland, smog in Christchurch, loss of native
species and poor water quality are problems crying out for
obvious solutions – often ones based on property rights, prices
and markets. More often than not, Greens are standing in the way
of them.

If anybody can explain to me why many Greens, who do not usually
strike me as bad or unintelligent people, are so often blind to
scientific evidence and dishonest in their arguments, I would
genuinely like to hear from them. Patrick Moore is surely right
to call for more aggressive responses to Big Green Lies; as he
says, “Nothing less will turn the tide in the battle for the
minds, and hearts, of people around the world.”

http://www.bioscinews.com/files/news-detail.asp?newsID=7058
--
Redbaiter
In the leftist's lexicon, the lowest of the low

"The unforgivable crime is soft hitting. Do not hit at all if it
can be avoided; but never hit softly." --Theodore Roosevelt
JD
2004-06-05 14:28:24 UTC
Permalink
......denying government any legitimacy because noone asked YOU to
re-approve all constitutional and legal arrangements developed over
previous centuries.
Talking about legal arrangements over the centuries...
Simpleton would apply to the person who seems unaware that the modern
era is characterised by the rule of law....
When did this modern era begin?
Patrick Dunford
2004-06-04 09:49:29 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@news.orcon.net.nz>, ***@mozilla-tbird0.6.org.nz
says...
Post by steve
Post by Sue Bilstein
But I have seen Clark tendering a selected note of Brash's meeting
with US senators, which is why Brash is not taking her spies with him.
A correct and understandable decision.
....if he wasn't saying one thing to them and another ot the NZ public,
there would have been no problem.
Lies from a bunch of right-haters.
Post by steve
The notes would have revealed Brash as a man of integrity.
The same goes for Clark or Peters or whoever.
Does it go the same for Green Party members as well?
Post by steve
They should not be announcing one policy....and then telling overseas
politicians something else.
No politician should.
When they are caught out, they should be rubbished accordingly.
As it stands, we only have the government propaganda transcript
confirming the comments, others present couldn't recall the comments
being made.
DPF
2004-06-05 11:29:30 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 08:39:45 +1200, in nz.general Sue Bilstein
Post by Sue Bilstein
Post by Col:
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't find
out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any comments
recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous meetings would
only have shown he was a straight dealer and a man of integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to conceal his
continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
I haven't seen Clark tendering notes of her comments recorded at meetings with
Chinese officials Steve .
Interesting news release though. Are labour only 8% behind National ?
But I have seen Clark tendering a selected note of Brash's meeting
with US senators, which is why Brash is not taking her spies with him.
A correct and understandable decision.
Indeed. If Helen agrees to allow a National staff member to attend
Cabinet meetings to verify that what she says in private is identical
to what she says in public, then I am sure MFAT staff will be more
welcome.

DPF


--
David Farrar
e-mail: ***@farrar.com
blog: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz
msn: ***@hotmail.com
icq: 29964527
steve
2004-06-03 07:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Col:
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't find
out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any comments
recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous meetings would
only have shown he was a straight dealer and a man of integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to conceal his
continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
I haven't seen Clark tendering notes of her comments recorded at meetings with
Chinese officials Steve .
Good point.

She should be.
John B
2004-06-02 21:39:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't
find out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any
comments recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous
meetings would only have shown he was a straight dealer and a man of
integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to conceal his
continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
Why keep repeating your outlandish lies and smears if you already believe it?

--
John B
steve
2004-06-03 07:56:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't
find out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any
comments recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous
meetings would only have shown he was a straight dealer and a man of
integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to conceal his
continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
Why keep repeating your outlandish lies and smears if you already believe it?
That makes no sense....but then you rarely do.
John Cawston
2004-06-03 08:53:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters
can't find out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any
comments recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous
meetings would only have shown he was a straight dealer and a
man of integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to
conceal his continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
Why keep repeating your outlandish lies and smears if you
already believe it?
Is National ahead in the polls or something?

JC
steve
2004-06-04 09:01:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Cawston
Post by John B
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters
can't find out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any
comments recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous
meetings would only have shown he was a straight dealer and a
man of integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to
conceal his continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
Why keep repeating your outlandish lies and smears if you
already believe it?
Is National ahead in the polls or something?
JC
.....until people get over their antipathy-by-invitation to Maori and
see that National still has the same policies that made voters throw
them out in 1999.

Brash's proven lack of integrity on the nuke issue and his avoidance of
anything resembling clarity on superannuation will eventually filter
through to voters.
Patrick Dunford
2004-06-04 09:54:12 UTC
Permalink
In article <40c03cba$***@news.orcon.net.nz>, ***@mozilla-tbird0.6.org.nz
says...
Post by steve
Post by John Cawston
Post by John B
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters
can't find out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any
comments recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous
meetings would only have shown he was a straight dealer and a
man of integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to
conceal his continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
Why keep repeating your outlandish lies and smears if you
already believe it?
Is National ahead in the polls or something?
JC
.....until people get over their antipathy-by-invitation to Maori and
see that National still has the same policies that made voters throw
them out in 1999.
The voters aren't as stupid as you pretend. Labour rammed the PC Maori
issues down people's throats and they reaped the consequences.
DPF
2004-06-05 11:33:20 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:01:06 +1200, in nz.general steve
Post by steve
Post by John Cawston
Post by John B
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters
can't find out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any
comments recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous
meetings would only have shown he was a straight dealer and a
man of integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to
conceal his continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
Why keep repeating your outlandish lies and smears if you
already believe it?
Is National ahead in the polls or something?
JC
.....until people get over their antipathy-by-invitation to Maori and
see that National still has the same policies that made voters throw
them out in 1999.
Brash's proven lack of integrity on the nuke issue and his avoidance of
anything resembling clarity on superannuation will eventually filter
through to voters.
What is unclear about no change will be made to National
Superannuation while he is Prime Minister?

DPF


--
David Farrar
e-mail: ***@farrar.com
blog: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz
msn: ***@hotmail.com
icq: 29964527
steve
2004-06-05 12:38:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by DPF
On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:01:06 +1200, in nz.general steve
Post by steve
Post by John Cawston
Post by John B
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters
can't find out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any
comments recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous
meetings would only have shown he was a straight dealer and a
man of integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to
conceal his continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
Why keep repeating your outlandish lies and smears if you
already believe it?
Is National ahead in the polls or something?
JC
.....until people get over their antipathy-by-invitation to Maori and
see that National still has the same policies that made voters throw
them out in 1999.
Brash's proven lack of integrity on the nuke issue and his avoidance of
anything resembling clarity on superannuation will eventually filter
through to voters.
What is unclear about no change will be made to National
Superannuation while he is Prime Minister?
DPF
I didn't hear that. I heard him avoiding answering several successive
questions offering him the opportunity to make it clear what he would do.

If he subsequently did clarify it, then I realidy accept being corrected.

Do yu have a pointer/URL?

I know I'm hard on your crowd...but I do not want to be harder than they
deserve. I also want to give credit whree it's due.

Ta.
DPF
2004-06-05 23:06:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 00:38:39 +1200, in nz.general steve
Post by steve
Post by DPF
Post by steve
Brash's proven lack of integrity on the nuke issue and his avoidance of
anything resembling clarity on superannuation will eventually filter
through to voters.
What is unclear about no change will be made to National
Superannuation while he is Prime Minister?
DPF
I didn't hear that. I heard him avoiding answering several successive
questions offering him the opportunity to make it clear what he would do.
He has said it a number of times.
Post by steve
If he subsequently did clarify it, then I realidy accept being corrected.
Do yu have a pointer/URL?
I know I'm hard on your crowd...but I do not want to be harder than they
deserve. I also want to give credit whree it's due.
http://www.national.org.nz/press_article.aspx?ArticleID=1578

DPF


--
David Farrar
e-mail: ***@farrar.com
blog: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz
msn: ***@hotmail.com
icq: 29964527
Bill E. Goat Gruff III
2004-06-04 12:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Cawston
Post by John B
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters
can't find out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any
comments recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous
meetings would only have shown he was a straight dealer and a
man of integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to
conceal his continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
Why keep repeating your outlandish lies and smears if you
already believe it?
Is National ahead in the polls or something?
JC
Must be. Could explain why Steve has now started calling Brash a liar.
Gib Bogle
2004-06-02 21:59:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't find
out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any comments
recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous meetings would
only have shown he was a straight dealer and a man of integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to conceal his
continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
You can't blame Brash for not wanting Clark's agents along to help her
score political points off him.

Gib
Barry Phease
2004-06-02 22:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gib Bogle
You can't blame Brash for not wanting Clark's agents along to help her
score political points off him.
This is true, however think of the dangers. He has a meeting with several
politicians from some other country. Assuming that he becomes PM some
day, then these overseas politicans come to him and ask him to fulful his
promises. He can't remember any promises, but everyone else in the
meeting agrees that he did make some.
--
Barry Phease

mailto:***@es.co.nz
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~barryp
Mark Remfrey
2004-06-02 23:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Phease
Post by Gib Bogle
You can't blame Brash for not wanting Clark's agents along to help her
score political points off him.
This is true, however think of the dangers. He has a meeting with several
politicians from some other country. Assuming that he becomes PM some
day, then these overseas politicans come to him and ask him to fulful his
promises. He can't remember any promises, but everyone else in the
meeting agrees that he did make some.
Executive notes were compiled at the meeting, just that they were taken by
people not likely to have them stolen off them for smear campaigns. Brash
has always stated that he fully trusted the integrity and services that MFAT
provided, and never laid the blame with it's employees.

Regards,
Mark
steve
2004-06-03 07:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Remfrey
Executive notes were compiled at the meeting, just that they were taken by
people not likely to have them stolen off them for smear campaigns. Brash
has always stated that he fully trusted the integrity and services that MFAT
provided, and never laid the blame with it's employees.
How could there be a smear campaign if Brash wasn't deceiving the public?

Had he said the same thing to the US senator that he said to Kiwi
voters....no possibility of "smear" would exist.

I note that in thie case a "smear" is outing Brash as a double-dealer
who won't play strait with Kiwi voters....but he will with foreign
politicians.
Patrick Dunford
2004-06-04 09:51:35 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@news.orcon.net.nz>, ***@mozilla-tbird0.6.org.nz
says...
Post by steve
Post by Mark Remfrey
Executive notes were compiled at the meeting, just that they were taken by
people not likely to have them stolen off them for smear campaigns. Brash
has always stated that he fully trusted the integrity and services that MFAT
provided, and never laid the blame with it's employees.
How could there be a smear campaign if Brash wasn't deceiving the public?
Had he said the same thing to the US senator that he said to Kiwi
voters....no possibility of "smear" would exist.
I note that in thie case a "smear" is outing Brash as a double-dealer
who won't play strait with Kiwi voters....but he will with foreign
politicians.
Since there is no other confirmation of the comment from that meeting,
you are well into the conspiracy theory...as usual
DPF
2004-06-05 11:41:32 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:48:58 +1200, in nz.general steve
Post by steve
Post by Mark Remfrey
Executive notes were compiled at the meeting, just that they were taken by
people not likely to have them stolen off them for smear campaigns. Brash
has always stated that he fully trusted the integrity and services that MFAT
provided, and never laid the blame with it's employees.
How could there be a smear campaign if Brash wasn't deceiving the public?
Had he said the same thing to the US senator that he said to Kiwi
voters....no possibility of "smear" would exist.
I note that in thie case a "smear" is outing Brash as a double-dealer
who won't play strait with Kiwi voters....but he will with foreign
politicians.
Taking an obviously flippant throw away line and treating it as a
serious commitment is just an attempt to smear. It's about as
credible as quoting back a sarcastic remark made in Usenet years
later.

Not a single person at the meeting (The MPs, the Senators or the MFAT
staffer) took the comment as a commitment of any sort.

Quite frankly if this is the best you and Clark can do, one really is
desperate.

DPF


--
David Farrar
e-mail: ***@farrar.com
blog: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz
msn: ***@hotmail.com
icq: 29964527
Jason M
2004-06-05 12:09:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by DPF
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:48:58 +1200, in nz.general steve
Post by steve
Post by Mark Remfrey
Executive notes were compiled at the meeting, just that they were taken by
people not likely to have them stolen off them for smear campaigns. Brash
has always stated that he fully trusted the integrity and services that MFAT
provided, and never laid the blame with it's employees.
How could there be a smear campaign if Brash wasn't deceiving the public?
Had he said the same thing to the US senator that he said to Kiwi
voters....no possibility of "smear" would exist.
I note that in thie case a "smear" is outing Brash as a double-dealer
who won't play strait with Kiwi voters....but he will with foreign
politicians.
Taking an obviously flippant throw away line and treating it as a
serious commitment is just an attempt to smear. It's about as
credible as quoting back a sarcastic remark made in Usenet years
later.
Not a single person at the meeting (The MPs, the Senators or the MFAT
staffer) took the comment as a commitment of any sort.
Oh, so all those people now agree that the comment was made?
That's a change from all of these Herald reports (when are they all
going to apologise, especially Senator Don Nickles?):

"Dr Brash has also said he cannot remember telling the senators that a
ban would be gone by lunchtime if a National-led government were
elected."

"US senator shoots down PM's claim
A senior United States Senator has cast strong doubts on the Prime
Minister's claim that Don Brash told him and five other American
congressmen that a National Government would scrap the ban on nuclear
ships "by lunchtime".
Senator Don Nickles, chairman of the Congress budget committee, told
the Herald he did not recall the National leader saying any such thing
during a January meeting. "

"National leader Don Brash today refused to confirm or deny that he
told a United States delegation a National government would get rid of
the nuclear ban by "lunchtime"."

"At the same time a second US senator and National's foreign affairs
spokesman, Lockwood Smith, have cast further doubts on whether the
comment was made."

"National Radio's Washington correspondent yesterday quoted Oregon
Senator Gordon Smith as saying he would have remembered if such a
remark had been made. Dr Smith said: "I'm absolutely certain he [Dr
Brash] never said that. I would have pricked up my ears and said,
'Hang on, Don, you can't quite do that'." "
Redbaiter
2004-06-05 12:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Jason M says
Post by Jason M
Oh, so all those people now agree that the comment was made?
That's a change from all of these Herald reports (when are they all
When are you going to apologise for your lies and stalking and
false allegations you stinking jerkoff cowardly hypocrite??

Fuck off. You of all people, a stinking usenet abuser, have not
the slightest right to point the finger at anybody..
--
Redbaiter
In the leftist's lexicon, the lowest of the low

"The unforgivable crime is soft hitting. Do not hit at all if it
can be avoided; but never hit softly." --Theodore Roosevelt
DPF
2004-06-05 23:10:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 12:09:42 GMT, in nz.general
Post by Jason M
Post by DPF
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:48:58 +1200, in nz.general steve
Post by steve
Post by Mark Remfrey
Executive notes were compiled at the meeting, just that they were taken by
people not likely to have them stolen off them for smear campaigns. Brash
has always stated that he fully trusted the integrity and services that MFAT
provided, and never laid the blame with it's employees.
How could there be a smear campaign if Brash wasn't deceiving the public?
Had he said the same thing to the US senator that he said to Kiwi
voters....no possibility of "smear" would exist.
I note that in thie case a "smear" is outing Brash as a double-dealer
who won't play strait with Kiwi voters....but he will with foreign
politicians.
Taking an obviously flippant throw away line and treating it as a
serious commitment is just an attempt to smear. It's about as
credible as quoting back a sarcastic remark made in Usenet years
later.
Not a single person at the meeting (The MPs, the Senators or the MFAT
staffer) took the comment as a commitment of any sort.
Oh, so all those people now agree that the comment was made?
That's a change from all of these Herald reports (when are they all
"Dr Brash has also said he cannot remember telling the senators that a
ban would be gone by lunchtime if a National-led government were
elected."
And that is true - he can not recall it. If it was a flippant throw
away remark, you don't remember it as much as actually seriously
pledging to change the law.
Post by Jason M
"US senator shoots down PM's claim
A senior United States Senator has cast strong doubts on the Prime
Minister's claim that Don Brash told him and five other American
congressmen that a National Government would scrap the ban on nuclear
ships "by lunchtime".
Senator Don Nickles, chairman of the Congress budget committee, told
the Herald he did not recall the National leader saying any such thing
during a January meeting. "
Again if it was a flippant throwaway remark you would not. My God I
make hundreds of them every week and would never remember half of
them.
Post by Jason M
"National leader Don Brash today refused to confirm or deny that he
told a United States delegation a National government would get rid of
the nuclear ban by "lunchtime"."
"At the same time a second US senator and National's foreign affairs
spokesman, Lockwood Smith, have cast further doubts on whether the
comment was made."
"National Radio's Washington correspondent yesterday quoted Oregon
Senator Gordon Smith as saying he would have remembered if such a
remark had been made. Dr Smith said: "I'm absolutely certain he [Dr
Brash] never said that. I would have pricked up my ears and said,
'Hang on, Don, you can't quite do that'." "
So there are three possibilities.

1) No comment was ever made, and the MFAT staffer is wrong
2) A comment was made, but in such a way that no-one attached any
seriousness or credibility to it, and it was forgotten as soon as it
was said
3) A comment was seriously made, and Brash, Smith and two US Senators
conspired to pretend they can't recall it

DPF


--
David Farrar
e-mail: ***@farrar.com
blog: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz
msn: ***@hotmail.com
icq: 29964527
Gib Bogle
2004-06-03 01:42:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Phease
Post by Gib Bogle
You can't blame Brash for not wanting Clark's agents along to help her
score political points off him.
This is true, however think of the dangers. He has a meeting with several
politicians from some other country. Assuming that he becomes PM some
day, then these overseas politicans come to him and ask him to fulful his
promises. He can't remember any promises, but everyone else in the
meeting agrees that he did make some.
Who knows, but I don't think Brash is stupid enough to make promises to
any overseas politicians.

Gib
steve
2004-06-03 07:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gib Bogle
Post by Barry Phease
Post by Gib Bogle
You can't blame Brash for not wanting Clark's agents along to help
her score political points off him.
This is true, however think of the dangers. He has a meeting with several
politicians from some other country. Assuming that he becomes PM some
day, then these overseas politicans come to him and ask him to fulful his
promises. He can't remember any promises, but everyone else in the
meeting agrees that he did make some.
Who knows, but I don't think Brash is stupid enough to make promises to
any overseas politicians.
Gib
The evidence suggest otherwise.

I've seen this before: you make a political novice leader of major party
at your peril!

Brian Mulroney is an excellent example. From Iron Ore Corp CEO to
Conservative Leader to Canadian PM.....

He didn't understand democracy.
He didn't understand openness.
He didn't understand not behaving like a dictator.
He lied to voters.

His party went from the largest majority in Canadian history under his
leadership....to just TWO seats out of 301 only 4 years later.

....and they did a lOT of damage along the way.

No PM should be a novice politician....and brash is a Parliamentary
novice. His instincts aren't democratic - they are autocratic.

Like his party.
Gib Bogle
2004-06-03 08:43:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Post by Gib Bogle
Post by Barry Phease
Post by Gib Bogle
You can't blame Brash for not wanting Clark's agents along to help
her score political points off him.
This is true, however think of the dangers. He has a meeting with several
politicians from some other country. Assuming that he becomes PM some
day, then these overseas politicans come to him and ask him to fulful his
promises. He can't remember any promises, but everyone else in the
meeting agrees that he did make some.
Who knows, but I don't think Brash is stupid enough to make promises
to any overseas politicians.
Gib
The evidence suggest otherwise.
I've seen this before: you make a political novice leader of major party
at your peril!
Brian Mulroney is an excellent example. From Iron Ore Corp CEO to
Conservative Leader to Canadian PM.....
He didn't understand democracy.
He didn't understand openness.
He didn't understand not behaving like a dictator.
He lied to voters.
His party went from the largest majority in Canadian history under his
leadership....to just TWO seats out of 301 only 4 years later.
....and they did a lOT of damage along the way.
No PM should be a novice politician....and brash is a Parliamentary
novice. His instincts aren't democratic - they are autocratic.
Like his party.
Helen Clark is pretty autocratic. I don't share your concerns, but time
will tell.

Gib
steve
2004-06-03 08:57:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gib Bogle
Helen Clark is pretty autocratic. I don't share your concerns, but time
will tell.
Gib
I don't agree that Clark is autocratic. She is a leader. Brash is a leader.

Clark has been up front about all policy I can think of....whereas Brash
often prefers to dissemble.

Clark did hide the content of the letter to the US following the media
beat-up regarding her comments on what the impact of the peronsalities
of leaders may be on events.

As Tom Frewen showed in MediaWatch....that was a politically motivated
media assault...and I can understand the PM being less than impressed
and uncooperative.

Brash's situation was quite different.
Sue Bilstein
2004-06-03 09:21:11 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:57:23 +1200, steve
Post by steve
Post by Gib Bogle
Helen Clark is pretty autocratic. I don't share your concerns, but time
will tell.
I don't agree that Clark is autocratic. She is a leader. Brash is a leader.
Clark has been up front about all policy I can think of....whereas Brash
often prefers to dissemble.
Clark did hide the content of the letter to the US following the media
beat-up regarding her comments on what the impact of the peronsalities
of leaders may be on events.
As Tom Frewen showed in MediaWatch....that was a politically motivated
media assault...and I can understand the PM being less than impressed
and uncooperative.
Brash's situation was quite different.
Yes, he's the leader of the National Party, and Clark is the leader of
the Labour Party. And your position is to the left of Clark, but
she's still within the pale as far as you're concerned.
steve
2004-06-04 09:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue Bilstein
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:57:23 +1200, steve
.........
Post by Sue Bilstein
Post by steve
As Tom Frewen showed in MediaWatch....that was a politically motivated
media assault...and I can understand the PM being less than impressed
and uncooperative.
Brash's situation was quite different.
Yes, he's the leader of the National Party, and Clark is the leader of
the Labour Party. And your position is to the left of Clark, but
she's still within the pale as far as you're concerned.
As usual...you avoid the facts specifically referred to....and instead
go for the stupid, by-rote assumption of partisan behaviour.

You're a fairly shallow and unthinging person, it seems.....always
avoiding the issues.
Bill E. Goat Gruff III
2004-06-06 07:18:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mr Scebe
Post by Sue Bilstein
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:57:23 +1200, steve
.........
Post by Sue Bilstein
Post by steve
As Tom Frewen showed in MediaWatch....that was a politically
motivated media assault...and I can understand the PM being less than
impressed and uncooperative.
Brash's situation was quite different.
Yes, he's the leader of the National Party, and Clark is the leader of
the Labour Party. And your position is to the left of Clark, but
she's still within the pale as far as you're concerned.
As usual...you avoid the facts specifically referred to....and instead
go for the stupid, by-rote assumption of partisan behaviour.
You're a fairly shallow and unthinging person, it seems.....always
avoiding the issues.
Wow Sue, you're an "unthinging" person. ;)
Patrick Dunford
2004-06-04 09:52:49 UTC
Permalink
In article <40beea4b$***@news.orcon.net.nz>, ***@mozilla-tbird0.6.org.nz
says...
Post by steve
Post by Gib Bogle
Helen Clark is pretty autocratic. I don't share your concerns, but time
will tell.
Gib
I don't agree that Clark is autocratic. She is a leader. Brash is a leader.
She is a total control freak. She has often made announcements when her
ministers should have made them in their policy area.
John B
2004-06-03 09:21:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Post by Gib Bogle
Post by Barry Phease
Post by Gib Bogle
You can't blame Brash for not wanting Clark's agents along to help
her score political points off him.
This is true, however think of the dangers. He has a meeting with several
politicians from some other country. Assuming that he becomes PM
some day, then these overseas politicans come to him and ask him to
fulful his promises. He can't remember any promises, but everyone
else in the meeting agrees that he did make some.
Who knows, but I don't think Brash is stupid enough to make promises
to any overseas politicians.
Gib
The evidence suggest otherwise.
I've seen this before: you make a political novice leader of major
party at your peril!
Fuck off. You make ANY body a leader of a political party at your peril! Don't
vote!
Post by steve
Brian Mulroney is an excellent example. From Iron Ore Corp CEO to
Conservative Leader to Canadian PM.....
He didn't understand democracy.
He didn't understand openness.
He didn't understand not behaving like a dictator.
He lied to voters.
His party went from the largest majority in Canadian history under his
leadership....to just TWO seats out of 301 only 4 years later.
....and they did a lOT of damage along the way.
No PM should be a novice politician....and brash is a Parliamentary
novice. His instincts aren't democratic - they are autocratic.
That's rich coming from you.
Post by steve
Like his party.
--
John B
DPF
2004-06-05 11:38:27 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:09:01 +1200, in nz.general Barry Phease
Post by Barry Phease
Post by Gib Bogle
You can't blame Brash for not wanting Clark's agents along to help her
score political points off him.
This is true, however think of the dangers. He has a meeting with several
politicians from some other country. Assuming that he becomes PM some
day, then these overseas politicans come to him and ask him to fulful his
promises. He can't remember any promises, but everyone else in the
meeting agrees that he did make some.
Indeed that is why MFAT staff in the past have been allowed to attend
such meetings usually.

Clark's use of confidential notes for petty political point scoring
has destroyed that convention and it will probably take decades for
the damage to be repaired.

I know a number of MFAT staff and you would not believe how absolutely
furious they are with Clark. I think she has single handedly
converted the Ministry from an organisation that normally is 90%
Labour voting to one which will probably have most vote for National
(or anyone but Labour) at the next election.

The effects of her move actually have gone far beyond MFAT. There are
scores of loyal neutral public servants who are incensed by what she
did. Clark has probably led to a 3% or so drop in Labour's vote in
Wellington City.

DPF


--
David Farrar
e-mail: ***@farrar.com
blog: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz
msn: ***@hotmail.com
icq: 29964527
Mr Scebe
2004-06-05 12:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by DPF
The effects of her move actually have gone far beyond MFAT. There are
scores of loyal neutral public servants who are incensed by what she
did. Clark has probably led to a 3% or so drop in Labour's vote in
Wellington City.
If it's enough to topple Polytubby then it can't be all bad.
--
Mr Scebe
"Never trust a woman or a government"
~Yellowbeard
steve
2004-06-03 07:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gib Bogle
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't
find out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any
comments recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous
meetings would only have shown he was a straight dealer and a man of
integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to conceal his
continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
You can't blame Brash for not wanting Clark's agents along to help her
score political points off him.
Gib
If he hadn't deceived Kiwi voters, there would be nothing to reveal
except that he is a straight dealer and a man of integrity.

Don't default to accepting deceit, Gib.

You'll get it.
Gib Bogle
2004-06-03 21:33:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Post by Gib Bogle
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't
find out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any
comments recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous
meetings would only have shown he was a straight dealer and a man of
integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to conceal his
continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
You can't blame Brash for not wanting Clark's agents along to help her
score political points off him.
Gib
If he hadn't deceived Kiwi voters, there would be nothing to reveal
except that he is a straight dealer and a man of integrity.
Don't default to accepting deceit, Gib.
You'll get it.
All politicians are deceitful. They'd never get elected otherwise.

Gib
steve
2004-06-04 09:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gib Bogle
Post by steve
Post by Gib Bogle
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't
find out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any
comments recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous
meetings would only have shown he was a straight dealer and a man of
integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to conceal
his continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
You can't blame Brash for not wanting Clark's agents along to help
her score political points off him.
Gib
If he hadn't deceived Kiwi voters, there would be nothing to reveal
except that he is a straight dealer and a man of integrity.
Don't default to accepting deceit, Gib.
You'll get it.
All politicians are deceitful. They'd never get elected otherwise.
Gib
I don't believe that. MMP, in particular, frees all politicians from the
pressure to lie.

They can say what they think and believe and win votes accordingly. The
desire to win more than they deserve is a form of cheating that makes
them think they need to lie.

But it comes back to bite them in the backside.

Better to be honest at all times - and open. I think the Greens come
closest to this ideal in our Parliament and though their principled
stances don't sweep the board at elections, you know what they
mean...and they mean what they say...and their share of the vote has
been steadily increasing as more people catch on.

I'll vote for people like that....and I do.
Redbaiter
2004-06-04 09:18:07 UTC
Permalink
steve says
Post by steve
Better to be honest at all times - and open. I think the Greens come
closest to this ideal in our Parliament and though their principled
stances don't sweep the board at elections, you know what they
mean...and they mean what they say...and their share of the vote has
been steadily increasing as more people catch on.
The Greens as a party, are recognised as the biggest bunch of
liars in parliament. Its a matter of public record.
--
Redbaiter
In the leftist's lexicon, the lowest of the low

"The unforgivable crime is soft hitting. Do not hit at all if it
can be avoided; but never hit softly." --Theodore Roosevelt
steve
2004-06-05 12:41:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Redbaiter
steve says
Post by steve
Better to be honest at all times - and open. I think the Greens come
closest to this ideal in our Parliament and though their principled
stances don't sweep the board at elections, you know what they
mean...and they mean what they say...and their share of the vote has
been steadily increasing as more people catch on.
The Greens as a party, are recognised as the biggest bunch of
liars in parliament. Its a matter of public record.
...and if asked for proof - or pointers to the proof, you won't provide
any (because you can't - I know that - and you know that).

Gimme some proof, Red.

Proof that leaves NO DOUBT.

LOL!!!!
Patrick Dunford
2004-06-06 11:19:50 UTC
Permalink
In article <40c1c1f6$***@news.orcon.net.nz>, ***@mozilla-tbird0.6.org.nz
says...
Post by steve
Post by Redbaiter
steve says
Post by steve
Better to be honest at all times - and open. I think the Greens come
closest to this ideal in our Parliament and though their principled
stances don't sweep the board at elections, you know what they
mean...and they mean what they say...and their share of the vote has
been steadily increasing as more people catch on.
The Greens as a party, are recognised as the biggest bunch of
liars in parliament. Its a matter of public record.
...and if asked for proof - or pointers to the proof, you won't provide
any (because you can't - I know that - and you know that).
Gimme some proof, Red.
Proof that leaves NO DOUBT.
Proof of the same standard by which you can "prove" all your diatribes
against the US government and Brash
Mr Scebe
2004-06-04 06:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't find
out what stories he's telling US officials.
No, by betraying years of unwritten law, Helenardo has ensured that Brash's
meetings won't be covered. As you sow, so shall you reap..............
--
Mr Scebe
"Personally i think you're a fucking idiot"
~Sean Connery in "The Rock"
Patrick Dunford
2004-06-04 09:47:26 UTC
Permalink
In article <40bdccd3$***@news.orcon.net.nz>, ***@mozilla-tbird0.6.org.nz
says...
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't find
out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any comments
recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous meetings would
only have shown he was a straight dealer and a man of integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to conceal his
continuing deceipt.
What an outstanding example of left wing deceit and hypocrisy.

Foreign Affairs officials are employees of the government, and what you
really mean is that voters should get the "facts" after they have been
through the Government propaganda machine.

When are all the Green Party meetings all around NZ going to be fully
opened to the public and news media? When are the web cam installers
going out to Foxton to install cameras in every room of your house so
that the public can pry into every part of your life?
DPF
2004-06-05 11:44:17 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 21:47:26 +1200, in nz.general Patrick Dunford
Post by Patrick Dunford
says...
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't find
out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any comments
recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous meetings would
only have shown he was a straight dealer and a man of integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to conceal his
continuing deceipt.
What an outstanding example of left wing deceit and hypocrisy.
Foreign Affairs officials are employees of the government, and what you
really mean is that voters should get the "facts" after they have been
through the Government propaganda machine.
When are all the Green Party meetings all around NZ going to be fully
opened to the public and news media? When are the web cam installers
going out to Foxton to install cameras in every room of your house so
that the public can pry into every part of your life?
Actually I am waiting for Steve to arrange an invitation for me to sit
in and attend all Green Party caucus meetings. Just to record what
they discuss, and of course expose them if they ever say anything
slightly different in public.

D{F


--
David Farrar
e-mail: ***@farrar.com
blog: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz
msn: ***@hotmail.com
icq: 29964527
steve
2004-06-05 12:44:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by DPF
Actually I am waiting for Steve to arrange an invitation for me to sit
in and attend all Green Party caucus meetings. Just to record what
they discuss, and of course expose them if they ever say anything
slightly different in public.
Wrong comparison.

I'd agree with you if you said "meetings with foriegn politicians".

I would have no problem with that at all.

If the Green MPs were saying one thing to the NZ public and another to
politicians from overseas, I'd love to know about it.

But not you.

You're apartisan person and we couldn't be sure you'd provide an honest
record of proceedings.

Make it an offical from Foreign Affairs....
Redbaiter
2004-06-05 12:49:54 UTC
Permalink
steve says
Post by steve
If the Green MPs were saying one thing to the NZ public and another to
politicians from overseas, I'd love to know about it.
Annette Sykes said, at a Green Party meeting:

"When I first saw the planes fly into the towers I jumped for
joy. I was so happy that at long last capitalism was under
attack, until it suddenly dawned on me what about all those poor
pizza delivery boys, those poor firemen, those poor policemen,
those poor lift operators, all those poor cleaners, all those
other poor workers who are forced to work for and were trying to
save those greedy and horrible capitalists. My heart and head
were so confused--happy that some capitalists had been killed
and very, very sad for all those who had died whilst working for
them.''

That was at a Green Party meeting.
--
Redbaiter
In the leftist's lexicon, the lowest of the low

"The unforgivable crime is soft hitting. Do not hit at all if it
can be avoided; but never hit softly." --Theodore Roosevelt
Bill E. Goat Gruff III
2004-06-06 07:17:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Redbaiter
steve says
Post by steve
If the Green MPs were saying one thing to the NZ public and another to
politicians from overseas, I'd love to know about it.
"When I first saw the planes fly into the towers I jumped for
joy. I was so happy that at long last capitalism was under
attack, until it suddenly dawned on me what about all those poor
pizza delivery boys, those poor firemen, those poor policemen,
those poor lift operators, all those poor cleaners, all those
other poor workers who are forced to work for and were trying to
save those greedy and horrible capitalists. My heart and head
were so confused--happy that some capitalists had been killed
and very, very sad for all those who had died whilst working for
them.''
That was at a Green Party meeting.
Did she really say that? If she did then she's not fit to even be a
politician.
Divine
2004-06-06 08:00:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill E. Goat Gruff III
Did she really say that? If she did then she's not fit to even be a
politician.
We all know that the world will be considerably better off if the USA was
obliterated from the face of the Earth.

Any organisation which would do the same to President Shrub would get my
vote!


Divine
--
The Queen's Mother: "Well I don't know what all you queens are doing,
but this old Queen wants a drink."
Patrick Dunford
2004-06-06 11:18:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Divine
Post by Bill E. Goat Gruff III
Did she really say that? If she did then she's not fit to even be a
politician.
We all know that the world will be considerably better off if the USA was
obliterated from the face of the Earth.
Did you change your name to "USA"? Why should a lot of innocent citizens
of Wellington have to die to fulfill your loony ravings?
JD
2004-06-05 14:26:54 UTC
Permalink
Simpleton would apply to the person who seems unaware that the modern
era is characterised by the rule of law....
When did this modern era begin?
DPF
2004-06-05 23:14:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 00:44:22 +1200, in nz.general steve
<***@mozilla-tbird0.6.org.nz> wrote:
ur e-mail to
Post by steve
Post by DPF
Actually I am waiting for Steve to arrange an invitation for me to sit
in and attend all Green Party caucus meetings. Just to record what
they discuss, and of course expose them if they ever say anything
slightly different in public.
Wrong comparison.
I'd agree with you if you said "meetings with foriegn politicians".
But why only foreign politicians? Are you saying one should not worry
about what is said in private to foreign multinational business
owners? Or to NZ politicians? Or to NZ businesses? Or to NZ lobby
groups?

I think every single MP should have an Government staffer be with them
24 hours a day to record everything they say, and report it back to
Helen.
Post by steve
I would have no problem with that at all.
If the Green MPs were saying one thing to the NZ public and another to
politicians from overseas, I'd love to know about it.
Okay so when the Green MPs from Australia meet with NZ Green MPs, you
will advocate for me to be able to attend that meeting. Please copy
me in on your e-mail to Rod and I'll work on logistics with him.
Post by steve
You're apartisan person and we couldn't be sure you'd provide an honest
record of proceedings.
Make it an offical from Foreign Affairs....
I'm fine with that, as long as the notes get published publicly.

DPF


--
David Farrar
e-mail: ***@farrar.com
blog: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz
msn: ***@hotmail.com
icq: 29964527
Patrick Dunford
2004-06-06 11:16:47 UTC
Permalink
In article <40c1c2a1$***@news.orcon.net.nz>, ***@mozilla-tbird0.6.org.nz
says...
Post by steve
Post by DPF
Actually I am waiting for Steve to arrange an invitation for me to sit
in and attend all Green Party caucus meetings. Just to record what
they discuss, and of course expose them if they ever say anything
slightly different in public.
Wrong comparison.
I'd agree with you if you said "meetings with foriegn politicians".
I would have no problem with that at all.
If the Green MPs were saying one thing to the NZ public and another to
politicians from overseas, I'd love to know about it.
But not you.
You're apartisan person and we couldn't be sure you'd provide an honest
record of proceedings.
Like you couldn't, or Helen Clark or Phil Goff
Bill E. Goat Gruff III
2004-06-04 11:53:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Nat leader, Don Brash, caught out telling one thing to a US
Senator...and another to voters....is now making sure voters can't find
out what stories he's telling US officials.
Had Brash acted with the integrity we would expect of him, any comments
recorded by the Foreign Affairs officials at previous meetings would
only have shown he was a straight dealer and a man of integrity.
But he is neither.....and he has now taken extra steps to conceal his
continuing deceipt.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/428835%3fformat=html
It appears Steve has gotten bored with calling GWB a liar and has now
started on Brash.
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