Discussion:
Another $4 billion hole!
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Rich80105
2020-09-20 04:34:23 UTC
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Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
seat for Labour at the last election, now we have:
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan

Meanwhile, misleading numbers won't phase another opinionated fool:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Tony
2020-09-20 05:03:20 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Terrible really or is it just a simple mistake.
In either case it is not nearly as bad as Ardern's failure to achieve any of
her major promises, is it Rich?
John Bowes
2020-09-20 06:04:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Terrible really or is it just a simple mistake.
In either case it is not nearly as bad as Ardern's failure to achieve any of
her major promises, is it Rich?
Shh!!!!! Rich will start checking your spelling if you keep telling him the truth Tony......

Nothings as bad as Labours three years of non delivery tony!
Gordon
2020-09-20 08:26:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Terrible really or is it just a simple mistake.
In either case it is not nearly as bad as Ardern's failure to achieve any of
her major promises, is it Rich?
Entry into the Pike River mine.
Tony
2020-09-20 20:15:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Terrible really or is it just a simple mistake.
In either case it is not nearly as bad as Ardern's failure to achieve any of
her major promises, is it Rich?
Entry into the Pike River mine.
Yes indeed, they have yet to do that.
George
2020-09-20 20:21:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 15:15:35 -0500
Post by Tony
Post by Gordon
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Terrible really or is it just a simple mistake.
In either case it is not nearly as bad as Ardern's failure to
achieve any of her major promises, is it Rich?
Entry into the Pike River mine.
Yes indeed, they have yet to do that.
Well the poor pussies have that soot to get rid of before they get up
to the rock fall.
I can see as to how its a retirement job.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Rich80105
2020-09-20 08:50:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 00:03:20 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Terrible really or is it just a simple mistake.
The persistence of bias and untrue statements from Hosking do not
augure well for anything other than persistent and deliberate bias -
his employer should be ashamed to be still employing him.

One good thing has however come from National following the public
reporting of the blunder by National - Goldsmith has said that it was
wrong and that it was a mistake. Such a turnaround from normal
obfuscation and deliberate lying is welcome indeed - well done to
Goldsmith, and may we see more of that than National's usual approach.
Post by Tony
In either case it is not nearly as bad as Ardern's failure to achieve any of
her major promises, is it Rich?
You are really a bit like Mike Hosking in your own way, Tony - never
let facts get in the way of your personal biasses do you? We have
talked before about your essential dishonesty in not acknowledging
that none of the parties to the coalition government were able to
achieve all that they wanted in the face of the ability of other
parties to effectively veto any particular proposal or policy, let
alone other events not anticipated before the last election, but that
particular reality is either beyond your intellectual capacity to
understand or something your lack of honesty prevents you from
acknowledging. Our "three party" government has hardly had 'business
as usual" during this last term. Still there is one thing going for
your unsupported assertion - the voters of New Zealand will
encapsulate their views of the various parties at the election, and
with that some perhaps will base decisions on the last 3 to 15 years
experience. We will elect a government based on those votes -
undoubtedly there will be some disappointed at some aspects of the
government parties in the last three years; or of opposition parties.
Goldsmiths acknowledgement of the mistake may mean it is not a
particularly strong negative for National, but some may as a result
recall the stench of dirty tricks still hovering over that party. I am
confident that voters will see that many important policies were in
fact achieved in the last three years, and will wish to see those
achievements and the direction continued despite the difficult
economic position the world finds itself in; your hopes may be less
realistic.
John Bowes
2020-09-20 09:12:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 00:03:20 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Terrible really or is it just a simple mistake.
The persistence of bias and untrue statements from Hosking do not
augure well for anything other than persistent and deliberate bias -
his employer should be ashamed to be still employing him.
You mean you're happy to lie and avoid issues on behalf of Labour even though you have nowhere near the following Hosking has?
Post by Rich80105
One good thing has however come from National following the public
reporting of the blunder by National - Goldsmith has said that it was
wrong and that it was a mistake. Such a turnaround from normal
obfuscation and deliberate lying is welcome indeed - well done to
Goldsmith, and may we see more of that than National's usual approach.
Pity Labour still persists (like you Rich) with obfuscation and deliberate lying in it's dealings with the public Rich!
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
In either case it is not nearly as bad as Ardern's failure to achieve any of
her major promises, is it Rich?
You are really a bit like Mike Hosking in your own way, Tony - never
let facts get in the way of your personal biasses do you? We have
talked before about your essential dishonesty in not acknowledging
that none of the parties to the coalition government were able to
achieve all that they wanted in the face of the ability of other
parties to effectively veto any particular proposal or policy, let
alone other events not anticipated before the last election, but that
particular reality is either beyond your intellectual capacity to
understand or something your lack of honesty prevents you from
acknowledging. Our "three party" government has hardly had 'business
as usual" during this last term. Still there is one thing going for
your unsupported assertion - the voters of New Zealand will
encapsulate their views of the various parties at the election, and
with that some perhaps will base decisions on the last 3 to 15 years
experience. We will elect a government based on those votes -
undoubtedly there will be some disappointed at some aspects of the
government parties in the last three years; or of opposition parties.
Goldsmiths acknowledgement of the mistake may mean it is not a
particularly strong negative for National, but some may as a result
recall the stench of dirty tricks still hovering over that party. I am
confident that voters will see that many important policies were in
fact achieved in the last three years, and will wish to see those
achievements and the direction continued despite the difficult
economic position the world finds itself in; your hopes may be less
realistic.
Funny how Labour spat the dummy at Nationals economic policy's then pulled out the Neve card in an effort to discredit them :)
Rich80105
2020-09-20 11:25:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 02:12:33 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 00:03:20 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Terrible really or is it just a simple mistake.
The persistence of bias and untrue statements from Hosking do not
augure well for anything other than persistent and deliberate bias -
his employer should be ashamed to be still employing him.
You mean you're happy to lie and avoid issues on behalf of Labour even though you have nowhere near the following Hosking has?
Post by Rich80105
One good thing has however come from National following the public
reporting of the blunder by National - Goldsmith has said that it was
wrong and that it was a mistake. Such a turnaround from normal
obfuscation and deliberate lying is welcome indeed - well done to
Goldsmith, and may we see more of that than National's usual approach.
Pity Labour still persists (like you Rich) with obfuscation and deliberate lying in it's dealings with the public Rich!
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
In either case it is not nearly as bad as Ardern's failure to achieve any of
her major promises, is it Rich?
You are really a bit like Mike Hosking in your own way, Tony - never
let facts get in the way of your personal biasses do you? We have
talked before about your essential dishonesty in not acknowledging
that none of the parties to the coalition government were able to
achieve all that they wanted in the face of the ability of other
parties to effectively veto any particular proposal or policy, let
alone other events not anticipated before the last election, but that
particular reality is either beyond your intellectual capacity to
understand or something your lack of honesty prevents you from
acknowledging. Our "three party" government has hardly had 'business
as usual" during this last term. Still there is one thing going for
your unsupported assertion - the voters of New Zealand will
encapsulate their views of the various parties at the election, and
with that some perhaps will base decisions on the last 3 to 15 years
experience. We will elect a government based on those votes -
undoubtedly there will be some disappointed at some aspects of the
government parties in the last three years; or of opposition parties.
Goldsmiths acknowledgement of the mistake may mean it is not a
particularly strong negative for National, but some may as a result
recall the stench of dirty tricks still hovering over that party. I am
confident that voters will see that many important policies were in
fact achieved in the last three years, and will wish to see those
achievements and the direction continued despite the difficult
economic position the world finds itself in; your hopes may be less
realistic.
Funny how Labour spat the dummy at Nationals economic policy's then pulled out the Neve card in an effort to discredit them :)
You flatter National by describing their u-turns on tax cuts as
"economic policy,'' and Goldsmith did not need any help from anyone
to make his he mistake; no-one would believeNeve was involved in that
debacle . . .
John Bowes
2020-09-20 21:57:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 02:12:33 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 00:03:20 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Terrible really or is it just a simple mistake.
The persistence of bias and untrue statements from Hosking do not
augure well for anything other than persistent and deliberate bias -
his employer should be ashamed to be still employing him.
You mean you're happy to lie and avoid issues on behalf of Labour even though you have nowhere near the following Hosking has?
Post by Rich80105
One good thing has however come from National following the public
reporting of the blunder by National - Goldsmith has said that it was
wrong and that it was a mistake. Such a turnaround from normal
obfuscation and deliberate lying is welcome indeed - well done to
Goldsmith, and may we see more of that than National's usual approach.
Pity Labour still persists (like you Rich) with obfuscation and deliberate lying in it's dealings with the public Rich!
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
In either case it is not nearly as bad as Ardern's failure to achieve any of
her major promises, is it Rich?
You are really a bit like Mike Hosking in your own way, Tony - never
let facts get in the way of your personal biasses do you? We have
talked before about your essential dishonesty in not acknowledging
that none of the parties to the coalition government were able to
achieve all that they wanted in the face of the ability of other
parties to effectively veto any particular proposal or policy, let
alone other events not anticipated before the last election, but that
particular reality is either beyond your intellectual capacity to
understand or something your lack of honesty prevents you from
acknowledging. Our "three party" government has hardly had 'business
as usual" during this last term. Still there is one thing going for
your unsupported assertion - the voters of New Zealand will
encapsulate their views of the various parties at the election, and
with that some perhaps will base decisions on the last 3 to 15 years
experience. We will elect a government based on those votes -
undoubtedly there will be some disappointed at some aspects of the
government parties in the last three years; or of opposition parties.
Goldsmiths acknowledgement of the mistake may mean it is not a
particularly strong negative for National, but some may as a result
recall the stench of dirty tricks still hovering over that party. I am
confident that voters will see that many important policies were in
fact achieved in the last three years, and will wish to see those
achievements and the direction continued despite the difficult
economic position the world finds itself in; your hopes may be less
realistic.
Funny how Labour spat the dummy at Nationals economic policy's then pulled out the Neve card in an effort to discredit them :)
You flatter National by describing their u-turns on tax cuts as
"economic policy,'' and Goldsmith did not need any help from anyone
to make his he mistake; no-one would believeNeve was involved in that
debacle . . .
Labour are shit scared the tax cuts and National's economy policy's will give them the election. Their response (as any time they need a distraction from unpalatable facts) the roll out another fluff piece about Neve! Only a fucking imbecile like you would read into my statement that Neve was at fault with the $4 billion hole. Nice try at a distraction Rich but like Labour you fail yet again!
Tony
2020-09-21 01:55:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 00:03:20 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Terrible really or is it just a simple mistake.
The persistence of bias and untrue statements from Hosking do not
augure well for anything other than persistent and deliberate bias -
his employer should be ashamed to be still employing him.
This thread has nothing to do with him.
Post by Rich80105
One good thing has however come from National following the public
reporting of the blunder by National - Goldsmith has said that it was
wrong and that it was a mistake.
Such a turnaround from normal
obfuscation and deliberate lying is welcome indeed
Pity Labour cannot do the same. - well done to
Post by Rich80105
Goldsmith, and may we see more of that than National's
and Labour's
Post by Rich80105
usual approach.
Post by Tony
In either case it is not nearly as bad as Ardern's failure to achieve any of
her major promises, is it Rich?
You are really a bit like Mike Hosking in your own way, Tony
You are infinitely more like him than I am, you are caustic and abusive
whenever anybody disegrees with you.
Post by Rich80105
- never
let facts get in the way of your personal biasses do you?
My personal bias is towards truth, yours is tghe opposite.
And I have not disputed any facts here, so you are lying.
<childish abuse snipped>
Post by Rich80105
none of the parties to the coalition government were able to
achieve all that they wanted in the face of the ability of other
parties to effectively veto any particular proposal or policy, let
alone other events not anticipated before the last election,
Irrelevant, Labour made promises they have not kept - that is all.
<childish abuse snipped>
Post by Rich80105
Our "three party" government has hardly had 'business
as usual" during this last term.
No worse than the previous government who actually got the economy working.
Your lot had two years and achieved nothing before Covid.
Post by Rich80105
Still there is one thing going for
your unsupported assertion - the voters of New Zealand will
encapsulate their views of the various parties at the election, and
with that some perhaps will base decisions on the last 3 to 15 years
experience. We will elect a government based on those votes -
undoubtedly there will be some disappointed at some aspects of the
government parties in the last three years; or of opposition parties.
Goldsmiths acknowledgement of the mistake may mean it is not a
particularly strong negative for National, but some may as a result
recall the stench of dirty tricks still hovering over that party. I am
confident that voters will see that many important policies were in
fact achieved in the last three years, and will wish to see those
achievements and the direction continued despite the difficult
economic position the world finds itself in;
<childish abuse snipped>
You are a deceitlful liar and you are totally incapable of debate - only abuse.
You really hate being caught out in your lies, innuendo, defamation and overuse
of sarcasm - all of which you are alomost permanently guilty of.
What a shame you cannot have a balanced debate, ever.
John Bowes
2020-09-20 06:09:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
The hole still didn't help Labour win the election either Rich. For that they had to rely on a toxic old bastard!
Post by Rich80105
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
The only opinionated fools I know are you and Keith. Hoskings smarter than the pair of you. Along with being a lot more succesful :)
Gordon
2020-09-20 08:29:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
Nah just an accounting error from a Party which claims thats it is better
than the others for managing the economy.

This shows that both sides are about equal.
John Bowes
2020-09-20 08:49:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
Nah just an accounting error from a Party which claims thats it is better
than the others for managing the economy.
This shows that both sides are about equal.
Not quite. National owned up to the error.....
Crash
2020-09-20 08:50:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
Nah just an accounting error from a Party which claims thats it is better
than the others for managing the economy.
This shows that both sides are about equal.
Except that National fessed up to their error, whereas Labour are yet
to explain their Kiwibuild, tree planting and Auckland light-rail
fiascos with similar candour.

Having said all this, I am yet to be convinced that the rhetoric from
National is any better or more credible than that from Labour.


--
Crash McBash
James Christophers
2020-09-20 21:46:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
When the self-styled Party of Business is bidding for control of the nation's finances, I reckon the voter is entitled to assume they can at least get their sums right.
Post by Rich80105
Meanwhile, misleading numbers won't phase
faze
Post by Rich80105
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Again, 'data literacy' - Goldsmith kindly note.
Rich80105
2020-09-20 23:46:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:46:39 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
When the self-styled Party of Business is bidding for control of the nation's finances, I reckon the voter is entitled to assume they can at least get their sums right.
Post by Rich80105
Meanwhile, misleading numbers won't phase
faze
Post by Rich80105
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Again, 'data literacy' - Goldsmith kindly note.
Thank you James, yes faze

I also got the Joyce fake problem wrong - it was $11.7 billion, but
also some see it as more a desperate lie than a personal mistake by
Joyce.
The Goldsmith mistake may have been resulted in part from National
having said they would not offer tax cuts, they changed their mind
very recently - I think they realised it was the easiest way to
indicate a wish to deliver more money to the wealthy, and they don't
really expect to have to meet that promise . . .
James Christophers
2020-09-21 03:32:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:46:39 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
When the self-styled Party of Business is bidding for control of the nation's finances, I reckon the voter is entitled to assume they can at least get their sums right.
Post by Rich80105
Meanwhile, misleading numbers won't phase
faze
Post by Rich80105
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Again, 'data literacy' - Goldsmith kindly note.
Thank you James, yes faze
I also got the Joyce fake problem wrong - it was $11.7 billion, but
also some see it as more a desperate lie than a personal mistake by
Joyce.
The Goldsmith mistake may have been resulted in part from National
having said they would not offer tax cuts, they changed their mind
very recently - I think they realised it was the easiest way to
indicate a wish to deliver more money to the wealthy, and they don't
really expect to have to meet that promise . . .
However one speculates as to National's intentions, there is currently no justification whatever for tax cuts for the wealthiest. Robertson has made this clear with his proposed increased taxes on the highest incomes. In fact, I know of not one instance of high earner complaining that he or she cannot afford to pay more tax on their income(s) than they do now.
JohnO
2020-09-22 03:17:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:46:39 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
When the self-styled Party of Business is bidding for control of the nation's finances, I reckon the voter is entitled to assume they can at least get their sums right.
Post by Rich80105
Meanwhile, misleading numbers won't phase
faze
Post by Rich80105
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Again, 'data literacy' - Goldsmith kindly note.
Thank you James, yes faze
I also got the Joyce fake problem wrong - it was $11.7 billion, but
also some see it as more a desperate lie than a personal mistake by
Joyce.
The Goldsmith mistake may have been resulted in part from National
having said they would not offer tax cuts, they changed their mind
very recently - I think they realised it was the easiest way to
indicate a wish to deliver more money to the wealthy, and they don't
really expect to have to meet that promise . . .
However one speculates as to National's intentions, there is currently no justification whatever for tax cuts for the wealthiest. Robertson has made this clear with his proposed increased taxes on the highest incomes. In fact, I know of not one instance of high earner complaining that he or she cannot afford to pay more tax on their income(s) than they do now.
Affordability has fuck-all to do with it. If someone can afford to live on $200k that's no reason to tax income over $200k at 100% - a direct extension of an affordability argument.

Increasing tax doesn't increase overall wealth. It can disincentivise wealth creation though. And it can lead to the non productive service economy growth of tax accounting services that you despise.
Tony
2020-09-22 03:23:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JohnO
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:46:39 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
When the self-styled Party of Business is bidding for control of the
nation's finances, I reckon the voter is entitled to assume they can at least
get their sums right.
Post by Rich80105
Meanwhile, misleading numbers won't phase
faze
Post by Rich80105
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Again, 'data literacy' - Goldsmith kindly note.
Thank you James, yes faze
I also got the Joyce fake problem wrong - it was $11.7 billion, but
also some see it as more a desperate lie than a personal mistake by
Joyce.
The Goldsmith mistake may have been resulted in part from National
having said they would not offer tax cuts, they changed their mind
very recently - I think they realised it was the easiest way to
indicate a wish to deliver more money to the wealthy, and they don't
really expect to have to meet that promise . . .
However one speculates as to National's intentions, there is currently no
justification whatever for tax cuts for the wealthiest. Robertson has made this
clear with his proposed increased taxes on the highest incomes. In fact, I know
of not one instance of high earner complaining that he or she cannot afford to
pay more tax on their income(s) than they do now.
Affordability has fuck-all to do with it. If someone can afford to live on
$200k that's no reason to tax income over $200k at 100% - a direct extension of
an affordability argument.
Increasing tax doesn't increase overall wealth. It can disincentivise wealth
creation though. And it can lead to the non productive service economy growth
of tax accounting services that you despise.
It is also greed, taking from people most of whom already collectively
contribute massively to the economy.
John Bowes
2020-09-22 04:46:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:46:39 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
When the self-styled Party of Business is bidding for control of the
nation's finances, I reckon the voter is entitled to assume they can at least
get their sums right.
Post by Rich80105
Meanwhile, misleading numbers won't phase
faze
Post by Rich80105
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Again, 'data literacy' - Goldsmith kindly note.
Thank you James, yes faze
I also got the Joyce fake problem wrong - it was $11.7 billion, but
also some see it as more a desperate lie than a personal mistake by
Joyce.
The Goldsmith mistake may have been resulted in part from National
having said they would not offer tax cuts, they changed their mind
very recently - I think they realised it was the easiest way to
indicate a wish to deliver more money to the wealthy, and they don't
really expect to have to meet that promise . . .
However one speculates as to National's intentions, there is currently no
justification whatever for tax cuts for the wealthiest. Robertson has made this
clear with his proposed increased taxes on the highest incomes. In fact, I know
of not one instance of high earner complaining that he or she cannot afford to
pay more tax on their income(s) than they do now.
Affordability has fuck-all to do with it. If someone can afford to live on
$200k that's no reason to tax income over $200k at 100% - a direct extension of
an affordability argument.
Increasing tax doesn't increase overall wealth. It can disincentivise wealth
creation though. And it can lead to the non productive service economy growth
of tax accounting services that you despise.
It is also greed, taking from people most of whom already collectively
contribute massively to the economy.
But imbeciles like Rich 80105 claims they're not paying their fair share of tax! Though the muppet has never suggested what a fair share of tax is. Keith as always pontificates like the pommy bastard he is! Like the media only highlights how much those already paying the majority of tax will get and ignoring the fact it's not just those on the top tax who'll benefit!
Rich80105
2020-09-22 10:12:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:46:01 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:46:39 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
When the self-styled Party of Business is bidding for control of the
nation's finances, I reckon the voter is entitled to assume they can at least
get their sums right.
Post by Rich80105
Meanwhile, misleading numbers won't phase
faze
Post by Rich80105
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Again, 'data literacy' - Goldsmith kindly note.
Thank you James, yes faze
I also got the Joyce fake problem wrong - it was $11.7 billion, but
also some see it as more a desperate lie than a personal mistake by
Joyce.
The Goldsmith mistake may have been resulted in part from National
having said they would not offer tax cuts, they changed their mind
very recently - I think they realised it was the easiest way to
indicate a wish to deliver more money to the wealthy, and they don't
really expect to have to meet that promise . . .
However one speculates as to National's intentions, there is currently no
justification whatever for tax cuts for the wealthiest. Robertson has made this
clear with his proposed increased taxes on the highest incomes. In fact, I know
of not one instance of high earner complaining that he or she cannot afford to
pay more tax on their income(s) than they do now.
Affordability has fuck-all to do with it. If someone can afford to live on
$200k that's no reason to tax income over $200k at 100% - a direct extension of
an affordability argument.
Increasing tax doesn't increase overall wealth. It can disincentivise wealth
creation though. And it can lead to the non productive service economy growth
of tax accounting services that you despise.
It is also greed, taking from people most of whom already collectively
contribute massively to the economy.
But imbeciles like Rich 80105 claims they're not paying their fair share of tax! Though the muppet has never suggested what a fair share of tax is. Keith as always pontificates like the pommy bastard he is! Like the media only highlights how much those already paying the majority of tax will get and ignoring the fact it's not just those on the top tax who'll benefit!
Its certainly the wealthy that would do better from National's
proposed temporary rushed promise - someone on $35,000 wuld get $8 a
week; double the earnings to $70,000 and the tax cut amounts to seven
times that - $56 per week (that's from memory; I haven't got the
article in front of me).

But who knows what they will be promising next week - with JohnO
contemplating 100% tax rates for earnings over $200,000, and Tony
arguing for no increase ever, perhaps National will change their mind
again . . ., but its fair to say it is most unlikely that anything
National says will matter to New Zealanders for a very long time

Meanwhile, there may be yet another mistake in National's numbers -
see
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300113657/election-2020-nationals-fiscal-hole-appears-to-double-to-8-billion-as-paul-goldsmith-denies-double-count-mistake

Irrelevant? Definitely yes National is now irrelevant to a solid
majority of New Zealanders.

The surprise in the polls is the number of Nat supporters who have
moved to support David Seymour - his policies may be far out, but he
comes across without the craziness of Collins, the deceiptful cunning
of Brownlee, or the blundering of Goldsmith. So will Dr Shane become
the next leader of the National Party? . . . . but do we care? . . .
Tony
2020-09-22 20:34:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:46:01 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:46:39 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
Post by Rich80105
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
When the self-styled Party of Business is bidding for control of the
nation's finances, I reckon the voter is entitled to assume they can
at least
get their sums right.
Post by Rich80105
Meanwhile, misleading numbers won't phase
faze
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Again, 'data literacy' - Goldsmith kindly note.
Thank you James, yes faze
I also got the Joyce fake problem wrong - it was $11.7 billion, but
also some see it as more a desperate lie than a personal mistake by
Joyce.
The Goldsmith mistake may have been resulted in part from National
having said they would not offer tax cuts, they changed their mind
very recently - I think they realised it was the easiest way to
indicate a wish to deliver more money to the wealthy, and they don't
really expect to have to meet that promise . . .
However one speculates as to National's intentions, there is currently no
justification whatever for tax cuts for the wealthiest. Robertson has made this
clear with his proposed increased taxes on the highest incomes. In fact, I know
of not one instance of high earner complaining that he or she cannot afford to
pay more tax on their income(s) than they do now.
Affordability has fuck-all to do with it. If someone can afford to live on
$200k that's no reason to tax income over $200k at 100% - a direct extension of
an affordability argument.
Increasing tax doesn't increase overall wealth. It can disincentivise wealth
creation though. And it can lead to the non productive service economy growth
of tax accounting services that you despise.
It is also greed, taking from people most of whom already collectively
contribute massively to the economy.
But imbeciles like Rich 80105 claims they're not paying their fair share of
tax! Though the muppet has never suggested what a fair share of tax is. Keith
as always pontificates like the pommy bastard he is! Like the media only
highlights how much those already paying the majority of tax will get and
ignoring the fact it's not just those on the top tax who'll benefit!
Its certainly the wealthy that would do better from National's
proposed temporary rushed promise - someone on $35,000 wuld get $8 a
week; double the earnings to $70,000 and the tax cut amounts to seven
times that - $56 per week (that's from memory; I haven't got the
article in front of me).
But who knows what they will be promising next week - with JohnO
contemplating 100% tax rates for earnings over $200,000
You are misrepresenting JohnO as you well know.
Post by Rich80105
, and Tony
arguing for no increase ever
That is another downright lie, I did nothing of the sort. You are a most
disagreeable and unpleasant creature/
Post by Rich80105
, perhaps National will change their mind
again . . ., but its fair to say it is most unlikely that anything
National says will matter to New Zealanders for a very long time
Meanwhile, there may be yet another mistake in National's numbers -
see
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300113657/election-2020-nationals-fiscal-hole-appears-to-double-to-8-billion-as-paul-goldsmith-denies-double-count-mistake
Irrelevant? Definitely yes National is now irrelevant to a solid
majority of New Zealanders.
The surprise in the polls is the number of Nat supporters who have
moved to support David Seymour - his policies may be far out, but he
comes across without the craziness of Collins, the deceiptful cunning
of Brownlee, or the blundering of Goldsmith. So will Dr Shane become
the next leader of the National Party? . . . . but do we care? . . .
John Bowes
2020-09-22 23:05:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:46:01 -0700 (PDT), John Bowes
Post by John Bowes
Post by Tony
Post by JohnO
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:46:39 -0700 (PDT), James Christophers
Post by James Christophers
Post by Rich80105
Steven Joyce's fake $4 billion ''hole'' was probably worth a extra
https://www.labour.org.nz/release-national-has-4-billion-mistake-in-its-economic-plan
When the self-styled Party of Business is bidding for control of the
nation's finances, I reckon the voter is entitled to assume they can at least
get their sums right.
Post by Rich80105
Meanwhile, misleading numbers won't phase
faze
Post by Rich80105
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018764431/watchdog-runs-the-numbers-on-covid-death-claims
Again, 'data literacy' - Goldsmith kindly note.
Thank you James, yes faze
I also got the Joyce fake problem wrong - it was $11.7 billion, but
also some see it as more a desperate lie than a personal mistake by
Joyce.
The Goldsmith mistake may have been resulted in part from National
having said they would not offer tax cuts, they changed their mind
very recently - I think they realised it was the easiest way to
indicate a wish to deliver more money to the wealthy, and they don't
really expect to have to meet that promise . . .
However one speculates as to National's intentions, there is currently no
justification whatever for tax cuts for the wealthiest. Robertson has made this
clear with his proposed increased taxes on the highest incomes. In fact, I know
of not one instance of high earner complaining that he or she cannot afford to
pay more tax on their income(s) than they do now.
Affordability has fuck-all to do with it. If someone can afford to live on
$200k that's no reason to tax income over $200k at 100% - a direct extension of
an affordability argument.
Increasing tax doesn't increase overall wealth. It can disincentivise wealth
creation though. And it can lead to the non productive service economy growth
of tax accounting services that you despise.
It is also greed, taking from people most of whom already collectively
contribute massively to the economy.
But imbeciles like Rich 80105 claims they're not paying their fair share of tax! Though the muppet has never suggested what a fair share of tax is. Keith as always pontificates like the pommy bastard he is! Like the media only highlights how much those already paying the majority of tax will get and ignoring the fact it's not just those on the top tax who'll benefit!
Its certainly the wealthy that would do better from National's
proposed temporary rushed promise - someone on $35,000 wuld get $8 a
week; double the earnings to $70,000 and the tax cut amounts to seven
times that - $56 per week (that's from memory; I haven't got the
article in front of me).
But who knows what they will be promising next week - with JohnO
contemplating 100% tax rates for earnings over $200,000, and Tony
arguing for no increase ever, perhaps National will change their mind
again . . ., but its fair to say it is most unlikely that anything
National says will matter to New Zealanders for a very long time
Meanwhile, there may be yet another mistake in National's numbers -
see
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300113657/election-2020-nationals-fiscal-hole-appears-to-double-to-8-billion-as-paul-goldsmith-denies-double-count-mistake
Irrelevant? Definitely yes National is now irrelevant to a solid
majority of New Zealanders.
A solid majority that has been abandoning Labour steadily over the last two years!
Post by Rich80105
The surprise in the polls is the number of Nat supporters who have
moved to support David Seymour - his policies may be far out, but he
comes across without the craziness of Collins, the deceiptful cunning
of Brownlee, or the blundering of Goldsmith. So will Dr Shane become
the next leader of the National Party? . . . . but do we care? . . .
Many more are supporting Seymour but looking at the drops in the polls there are more Labour votes going to him than National. No surprises because Seymour has been doing a brilliant job pointing out the government many errors of judgment and management. Could explain Arderns sulking in last nights debate :)

Your attacks on Collins, Goldsmith and Brownlee only show you and Ardern share the same Labour good, National bad whereas it should be National could do better, Labour incapable of planning or organising even a piss up at Maungaturoto!

Yes we do care Rich. The polls indicate Labour isn't as sure of a win as fucking imbeciles like you think. Probably why Ardern looked so desperate in the debate :)
George
2020-09-22 20:10:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:46:01 -0700 (PDT)
Post by John Bowes
But imbeciles like Rich 80105 claims they're not paying their fair
share of tax! Though the muppet has never suggested what a fair share
of tax is. Keith as always pontificates like the pommy bastard he is!
Like the media only highlights how much those already paying the
majority of tax will get and ignoring the fact it's not just those on
the top tax who'll benefit!
Piss off the high earners and they will move to another country.
A company earning millions will be sorely missed and the dole will not
fill the hole...
And unions can only threaten firms with strikes so even the moderate
firms will look to move offshore
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Tony
2020-09-22 20:42:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:46:01 -0700 (PDT)
Post by John Bowes
But imbeciles like Rich 80105 claims they're not paying their fair
share of tax! Though the muppet has never suggested what a fair share
of tax is. Keith as always pontificates like the pommy bastard he is!
Like the media only highlights how much those already paying the
majority of tax will get and ignoring the fact it's not just those on
the top tax who'll benefit!
Piss off the high earners and they will move to another country.
A company earning millions will be sorely missed and the dole will not
fill the hole...
And unions can only threaten firms with strikes so even the moderate
firms will look to move offshore
That is exactly what would happen George, in fact I know at least two people
who did exactly that a few years ago when it became clear that the then Labour
government was considering draconian taxes.
We know that the majority of the work is done by ordinary hard working folk but
the contribution by talented and entrepreneurial managers and investors is
priceless and they deserve compensation that is competitive internationally. To
tax them higher is simply greed and envy and the additional tax take would be
trivial.
Rich80105
2020-09-23 00:18:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:46:01 -0700 (PDT)
Post by John Bowes
But imbeciles like Rich 80105 claims they're not paying their fair
share of tax! Though the muppet has never suggested what a fair share
of tax is. Keith as always pontificates like the pommy bastard he is!
Like the media only highlights how much those already paying the
majority of tax will get and ignoring the fact it's not just those on
the top tax who'll benefit!
Piss off the high earners and they will move to another country.
A company earning millions will be sorely missed and the dole will not
fill the hole...
Absolutely, I agree. That is why JohnO''s suggestion of a 100% tax is
ridiculous. So what countries should we be most concerned about with
lower top tax than New Zealand, George?
Post by Rich80105
And unions can only threaten firms with strikes so even the moderate
firms will look to move offshore
A larger problem for New Zealand is owners of small companies selling
them off to realise the capital value - it is the new owners that move
the manufacturing to places with lower wage rates. Sometimes companies
have been sold for less than they are worth as well - some who
invested in companies sold off under John Key have doubled their money
as the price paid was too low.

New Zealand has fewer and generally weaker unions than most countries
- that was after all one of the main aims of our 30 odd years of
neo-liberalism. There is a call for the government to let temporary
workers in from overseas to be paid minimum wage in poor living
conditions, while there are New Zealanders that do not have jobs.
Sometimes perhaps we should let the market work, by not having the
government subsidise private companies but letting them find out how
much they have to pay to get people to take the jobs they want filled.

Can you point to any firms that have moved offshore in recent years
because of union action? (I'm not saying they don't exist, I just am
not aware of any).
John Bowes
2020-09-23 02:00:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:46:01 -0700 (PDT)
Post by John Bowes
But imbeciles like Rich 80105 claims they're not paying their fair
share of tax! Though the muppet has never suggested what a fair share
of tax is. Keith as always pontificates like the pommy bastard he is!
Like the media only highlights how much those already paying the
majority of tax will get and ignoring the fact it's not just those on
the top tax who'll benefit!
Piss off the high earners and they will move to another country.
A company earning millions will be sorely missed and the dole will not
fill the hole...
Absolutely, I agree. That is why JohnO''s suggestion of a 100% tax is
ridiculous. So what countries should we be most concerned about with
lower top tax than New Zealand, George?
JohnO was being sarcastic you fucking imbecile!
Post by Rich80105
Post by Rich80105
And unions can only threaten firms with strikes so even the moderate
firms will look to move offshore
A larger problem for New Zealand is owners of small companies selling
them off to realise the capital value - it is the new owners that move
the manufacturing to places with lower wage rates. Sometimes companies
have been sold for less than they are worth as well - some who
invested in companies sold off under John Key have doubled their money
as the price paid was too low.
The largest problem New Zealand has is a government that so shambolockal it's incapable of achieving any of the aims it promised to sort out last election! It can't bloody work because it's members are all moving in different directions!
Post by Rich80105
New Zealand has fewer and generally weaker unions than most countries
- that was after all one of the main aims of our 30 odd years of
neo-liberalism. There is a call for the government to let temporary
workers in from overseas to be paid minimum wage in poor living
conditions,
BULLSHIT! Labour/union fake news Rich. Nobody has made this claim. It's only the tiny voices in your head telling you this! sure some employers will do that but when caught out they get hammered!
Post by Rich80105
while there are New Zealanders that do not have jobs.
And many who don't want jobs Rich. Otherwise they'd be filling the agricultural jobs offering $25 an hour!
Post by Rich80105
Sometimes perhaps we should let the market work, by not having the
government subsidise private companies but letting them find out how
much they have to pay to get people to take the jobs they want filled.
Can you list the company's being subsidised by the government (from before covid 19)?
Post by Rich80105
Can you point to any firms that have moved offshore in recent years
because of union action? (I'm not saying they don't exist, I just am
not aware of any).
Your not aware of very much Rich. That's no secret to anybody who reads your faked/biased news!
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