Discussion:
Lessons from The UK Election
(too old to reply)
Rich80105
2019-12-15 02:20:46 UTC
Permalink
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.



Second: The System:
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5

* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.

We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.

Third: The Lies
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/

Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Tony
2019-12-15 02:35:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5
* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.
We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.
Third: The Lies
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or misguided is
irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called a racist with good
reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon equally validly. But the facts are
simple. Parliamentary democracy produced a valid and fair result.
Or wre you saying that the United Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
George
2019-12-15 03:02:24 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 20:35:18 -0600
Post by Tony
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or
misguided is irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called
a racist with good reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon
equally validly. But the facts are simple. Parliamentary democracy
produced a valid and fair result. Or wre you saying that the United
Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
If the left dont get their way then yes, they claim the system is
corrupt.
You can tell by the street protests rotfl as to who wants to throw
their toys
Rich80105
2019-12-15 05:28:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 20:35:18 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5
* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.
We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.
Third: The Lies
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or misguided is
irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called a racist with good
reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon equally validly. But the facts are
simple. Parliamentary democracy produced a valid and fair result.
It has produced a valid result. New Zealand changed its sytsem from
FPP to MMP because we assessed the sort of results that FPP gave as
not being fair. Corbyn is now largely irrelevant; he handled an
unjustified accusation badly, but is not anti-semitic.
Post by Tony
Or wre you saying that the United Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
No, I was looking for lessons for New Zealand. The first is a general
issue that currently favours Labour in New Zealand, but could favour
National in the future. The second is an argument for MMP - which will
not happen in the UK for another 5 years. New Zealand could however
improve our version of MMP by adopting the recommendations of the last
review.

The third issue is an important one - we are still learning how badly
voters have been fooled by the likes of Cambridge Analytica and the
dirty campaign in the UK ; I believe we need a proper independent
fact-checking service for all advertisements
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/05/lies-deceit-uk-general-election-causing-crisis-british-democracy-11277667/?ito=article.mweb.share.top.twitter
Tony
2019-12-16 00:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 20:35:18 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5
* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.
We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.
Third: The Lies
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or misguided is
irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called a racist with good
reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon equally validly. But the facts are
simple. Parliamentary democracy produced a valid and fair result.
It has produced a valid result. New Zealand changed its sytsem from
FPP to MMP because we assessed the sort of results that FPP gave as
not being fair. Corbyn is now largely irrelevant; he handled an
unjustified accusation badly, but is not anti-semitic.
Many millions of voters appear to believe he is racist.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Or wre you saying that the United Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
No, I was looking for lessons for New Zealand. The first is a general
issue that currently favours Labour in New Zealand, but could favour
National in the future. The second is an argument for MMP - which will
not happen in the UK for another 5 years. New Zealand could however
improve our version of MMP by adopting the recommendations of the last
review.
The third issue is an important one - we are still learning how badly
voters have been fooled by the likes of Cambridge Analytica and the
dirty campaign in the UK ; I believe we need a proper independent
fact-checking service for all advertisements
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/05/lies-deceit-uk-general-election-causing-crisis-british-democracy-11277667/?ito=article.mweb.share.top.twitter
Rich80105
2019-12-16 03:52:52 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 18:27:25 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 20:35:18 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5
* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.
We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.
Third: The Lies
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or misguided is
irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called a racist with good
reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon equally validly. But the facts are
simple. Parliamentary democracy produced a valid and fair result.
It has produced a valid result. New Zealand changed its sytsem from
FPP to MMP because we assessed the sort of results that FPP gave as
not being fair. Corbyn is now largely irrelevant; he handled an
unjustified accusation badly, but is not anti-semitic.
Many millions of voters appear to believe he is racist.
Certainly some do - a success for the UK right (see the link below);
but do you have evidence of "many millions"?
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Or wre you saying that the United Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
No, I was looking for lessons for New Zealand. The first is a general
issue that currently favours Labour in New Zealand, but could favour
National in the future. The second is an argument for MMP - which will
not happen in the UK for another 5 years. New Zealand could however
improve our version of MMP by adopting the recommendations of the last
review.
The third issue is an important one - we are still learning how badly
voters have been fooled by the likes of Cambridge Analytica and the
dirty campaign in the UK ; I believe we need a proper independent
fact-checking service for all advertisements
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/05/lies-deceit-uk-general-election-causing-crisis-british-democracy-11277667/?ito=article.mweb.share.top.twitter
Tony
2019-12-16 04:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 18:27:25 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 20:35:18 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5
* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.
We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.
Third: The Lies
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or misguided is
irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called a racist with good
reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon equally validly. But the facts are
simple. Parliamentary democracy produced a valid and fair result.
It has produced a valid result. New Zealand changed its sytsem from
FPP to MMP because we assessed the sort of results that FPP gave as
not being fair. Corbyn is now largely irrelevant; he handled an
unjustified accusation badly, but is not anti-semitic.
Many millions of voters appear to believe he is racist.
Certainly some do - a success for the UK right (see the link below);
but do you have evidence of "many millions"?
He and his party were quite rightly smashed.
Additionally he has just blamed the entire universe other than himself for the
failure of his shabby party.
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
Post by Tony
Or wre you saying that the United Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
No, I was looking for lessons for New Zealand. The first is a general
issue that currently favours Labour in New Zealand, but could favour
National in the future. The second is an argument for MMP - which will
not happen in the UK for another 5 years. New Zealand could however
improve our version of MMP by adopting the recommendations of the last
review.
The third issue is an important one - we are still learning how badly
voters have been fooled by the likes of Cambridge Analytica and the
dirty campaign in the UK ; I believe we need a proper independent
fact-checking service for all advertisements
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/05/lies-deceit-uk-general-election-causing-crisis-british-democracy-11277667/?ito=article.mweb.share.top.twitter
James Christophers
2019-12-15 22:23:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5
* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.
We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.
Third: The Lies
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or misguided is
irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called a racist with good
reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon equally validly. But the facts are
simple. Parliamentary democracy produced a valid and fair result.
Or wre you saying that the United Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
It wasn’t really even about democracy per se. The outcome was down solely to which of the two main parties had the **least** coherent and persuasive message, and the numbers do not lie, viz:

Johnson and his lot gained approx 300,000 more votes than Theresa May’s lot in 2016. Microscopic. But Johnson’s lot had got the message loud and clear - “Get Brexit done!” (Trump and “Make America great again!)

Corbyn and his lot had **lost** approx **2.4 million supporters** since the last general election. Apocalyptic. Vacillating incoherence.

But even so, no one can yet solidly confirm whether or not the electorally pivotal ‘red wall’ north of London collapsed simply because Labour heartlands were at the end of their tether with both a vacillating, incoherent Corbyn **and** the Brexit impasse; or whether, and way more crucially, their support for the Tories was only a temporary one-off “vote-leasing” just to get the “fucken deal” done once and for all and out of their hair.

From Thatcher’s time and right up until this election result, the north of England has been a wasteland of economic stagnation and social deprivation, poverty and decay. But since the days of Thatcher’s slash-and-burn 40 years ago, somehow and unaccountably(?), the Tories could never manage to find a way of sufficiently funding the North's regeneration caused solely by the destruction they had wrought upon it.

However, on the very first day after this election, the lifeless Tory money tree has somehow, unaccountably sprung to life and born fruit to the tune of a whacking £80billion, this if you please, to fund that very same purpose!

My, what price charity! What a fertile ground an election makes, eh? And every single penny of it will have to be borrowed or printed, this, mark you, when the UK is already drowning in already insupportable and increasing deficits and public debt. This is known mockingly as, "Strength through exhaustion".

And if this isn’t Politic’s short-term expediency laid bare, then tell me what is. So why has this happened this time? For the same time-worn reason that - Tory or Labour and/or their global equivalents - the electorate is invariably bought, and today more blatantly than ever before. Hence the Tories are gonna need to hold on to that “red-wall” majority up to and well past the **next** general election, hoping desperately that their charitably indulgent out-of-thin-air £80billion will do the trick.

Again, we hear a chorus of triumphal brayin’ and inane high-fivin’ greeting Sterling’s instantaneous post-election stellar ascent from its pauperish £1.00 = E1.10 to a decidedly limp-wristed £1.00 = E1.20.

In 2000 it stood at £1.00**E1.733**. (Over the same period it has declined from cNZ$3.00 to cNZ$2.00.) Way to go, Blighty!

Quite so, so be assured democracy has f..k all to do with it. For this you can thank the likes of Reagan, Thatcher, Friedman and Greenspan and their grand-larceny licensing of the City Laundry which has been turned into a global thieves’ kitchen of Russian kleptocrats, hedge fund spivs, tax-dodgers and embezzlers, being every one of ‘em one and the same.

But it’s good news down-under. This UK election essentially secures a free trade deal between the UK and New Zealand, previously mutually agreed in outline principle between the UK and Ardern; and, eventually, with the world’s largest trading bloc - again Arden with Barnier/Merkle, the duo who effectively control the EU agenda.

Finally, here in the South Pacific, we enjoy a peaceful unchallenged relationship with New Caledonia. Up there in the cold, dark North, Johnson now faces an doughty, implacable New Catalonia north of Hadrian’s Wall, and with it the potential and ruinous risk of a constitutional crisis on his hands. Meanwhile, resentful, sectarian Northern Ireland continues to simmer away...

So, for now, you can take it that the Post-Truth bluebird on Johnson’s shoulder tweeting sweet nothings in his ear may well enjoy a rather shorter life than nature would have otherwise have intended.

Yup, it ain’t over by a country mile, and then some.
JohnO
2019-12-16 01:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5
* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.
We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.
Third: The Lies
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or misguided is
irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called a racist with good
reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon equally validly. But the facts are
simple. Parliamentary democracy produced a valid and fair result.
Or wre you saying that the United Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
Johnson and his lot gained approx 300,000 more votes than Theresa May’s lot in 2016. Microscopic. But Johnson’s lot had got the message loud and clear - “Get Brexit done!” (Trump and “Make America great again!)
Corbyn and his lot had **lost** approx **2.4 million supporters** since the last general election. Apocalyptic. Vacillating incoherence.
But even so, no one can yet solidly confirm whether or not the electorally pivotal ‘red wall’ north of London collapsed simply because Labour heartlands were at the end of their tether with both a vacillating, incoherent Corbyn **and** the Brexit impasse; or whether, and way more crucially, their support for the Tories was only a temporary one-off “vote-leasing” just to get the “fucken deal” done once and for all and out of their hair.
From Thatcher’s time and right up until this election result, the north of England has been a wasteland of economic stagnation and social deprivation,
Out of date. Manchester is growing faster than the rest of the UK (and EU). Same for Leeds.

The north suffered under Thatcher's necessary reforms. Better to suffer bitter medicine than to die. Living on under a socialist economy based on coal mines and inefficient manufacturing was not viable.

A lot of technology businesses have moved north out of London as it was too expensive and too congested.
Post by James Christophers
poverty and decay. But since the days of Thatcher’s slash-and-burn 40 years ago, somehow and unaccountably(?), the Tories could never manage to find a way of sufficiently funding the North's regeneration caused solely by the destruction they had wrought upon it.
However, on the very first day after this election, the lifeless Tory money tree has somehow, unaccountably sprung to life and born fruit to the tune of a whacking £80billion, this if you please, to fund that very same purpose!
My, what price charity! What a fertile ground an election makes, eh? And every single penny of it will have to be borrowed or printed, this, mark you, when the UK is already drowning in already insupportable and increasing deficits and public debt. This is known mockingly as, "Strength through exhaustion".
And if this isn’t Politic’s short-term expediency laid bare, then tell me what is. So why has this happened this time? For the same time-worn reason that - Tory or Labour and/or their global equivalents - the electorate is invariably bought, and today more blatantly than ever before. Hence the Tories are gonna need to hold on to that “red-wall” majority up to and well past the **next** general election, hoping desperately that their charitably indulgent out-of-thin-air £80billion will do the trick.
Again, we hear a chorus of triumphal brayin’ and inane high-fivin’ greeting Sterling’s instantaneous post-election stellar ascent from its pauperish £1.00 = E1.10 to a decidedly limp-wristed £1.00 = E1.20.
In 2000 it stood at £1.00**E1.733**. (Over the same period it has declined from cNZ$3.00 to cNZ$2.00.) Way to go, Blighty!
Quite so, so be assured democracy has f..k all to do with it. For this you can thank the likes of Reagan, Thatcher, Friedman and Greenspan and their grand-larceny licensing of the City Laundry which has been turned into a global thieves’ kitchen of Russian kleptocrats, hedge fund spivs, tax-dodgers and embezzlers, being every one of ‘em one and the same.
But it’s good news down-under. This UK election essentially secures a free trade deal between the UK and New Zealand, previously mutually agreed in outline principle between the UK and Ardern; and, eventually, with the world’s largest trading bloc - again Arden with Barnier/Merkle, the duo who effectively control the EU agenda.
Finally, here in the South Pacific, we enjoy a peaceful unchallenged relationship with New Caledonia. Up there in the cold, dark North, Johnson now faces an doughty, implacable New Catalonia north of Hadrian’s Wall, and with it the potential and ruinous risk of a constitutional crisis on his hands. Meanwhile, resentful, sectarian Northern Ireland continues to simmer away...
So, for now, you can take it that the Post-Truth bluebird on Johnson’s shoulder tweeting sweet nothings in his ear may well enjoy a rather shorter life than nature would have otherwise have intended.
Yup, it ain’t over by a country mile, and then some.
Rich80105
2019-12-16 04:11:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnO
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5
* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.
We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.
Third: The Lies
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or misguided is
irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called a racist with good
reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon equally validly. But the facts are
simple. Parliamentary democracy produced a valid and fair result.
Or wre you saying that the United Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
Johnson and his lot gained approx 300,000 more votes than Theresa May’s lot in 2016. Microscopic. But Johnson’s lot had got the message loud and clear - “Get Brexit done!” (Trump and “Make America great again!)
Corbyn and his lot had **lost** approx **2.4 million supporters** since the last general election. Apocalyptic. Vacillating incoherence.
But even so, no one can yet solidly confirm whether or not the electorally pivotal ‘red wall’ north of London collapsed simply because Labour heartlands were at the end of their tether with both a vacillating, incoherent Corbyn **and** the Brexit impasse; or whether, and way more crucially, their support for the Tories was only a temporary one-off “vote-leasing” just to get the “fucken deal” done once and for all and out of their hair.
From Thatcher’s time and right up until this election result, the north of England has been a wasteland of economic stagnation and social deprivation,
Out of date. Manchester is growing faster than the rest of the UK (and EU). Same for Leeds.
The north suffered under Thatcher's necessary reforms. Better to suffer bitter medicine than to die. Living on under a socialist economy based on coal mines and inefficient manufacturing was not viable.
A lot of technology businesses have moved north out of London as it was too expensive and too congested.
What this misses is that "growth" does not equate to general
prosperity - the gains in Tory Britain have, "by design", gone largely
to the already wealthy - yes there is overall "growth", but at the
same time there is more poverty and social deprivation
Post by JohnO
poverty and decay. But since the days of Thatcher’s slash-and-burn 40 years ago, somehow and unaccountably(?), the Tories could never manage to find a way of sufficiently funding the North's regeneration caused solely by the destruction they had wrought upon it.
However, on the very first day after this election, the lifeless Tory money tree has somehow, unaccountably sprung to life and born fruit to the tune of a whacking £80billion, this if you please, to fund that very same purpose!
My, what price charity! What a fertile ground an election makes, eh? And every single penny of it will have to be borrowed or printed, this, mark you, when the UK is already drowning in already insupportable and increasing deficits and public debt. This is known mockingly as, "Strength through exhaustion".
And if this isn’t Politic’s short-term expediency laid bare, then tell me what is. So why has this happened this time? For the same time-worn reason that - Tory or Labour and/or their global equivalents - the electorate is invariably bought, and today more blatantly than ever before. Hence the Tories are gonna need to hold on to that “red-wall” majority up to and well past the **next** general election, hoping desperately that their charitably indulgent out-of-thin-air £80billion will do the trick.
Again, we hear a chorus of triumphal brayin’ and inane high-fivin’ greeting Sterling’s instantaneous post-election stellar ascent from its pauperish £1.00 = E1.10 to a decidedly limp-wristed £1.00 = E1.20.
In 2000 it stood at £1.00**E1.733**. (Over the same period it has declined from cNZ$3.00 to cNZ$2.00.) Way to go, Blighty!
Quite so, so be assured democracy has f..k all to do with it. For this you can thank the likes of Reagan, Thatcher, Friedman and Greenspan and their grand-larceny licensing of the City Laundry which has been turned into a global thieves’ kitchen of Russian kleptocrats, hedge fund spivs, tax-dodgers and embezzlers, being every one of ‘em one and the same.
But it’s good news down-under. This UK election essentially secures a free trade deal between the UK and New Zealand, previously mutually agreed in outline principle between the UK and Ardern; and, eventually, with the world’s largest trading bloc - again Arden with Barnier/Merkle, the duo who effectively control the EU agenda.
Finally, here in the South Pacific, we enjoy a peaceful unchallenged relationship with New Caledonia. Up there in the cold, dark North, Johnson now faces an doughty, implacable New Catalonia north of Hadrian’s Wall, and with it the potential and ruinous risk of a constitutional crisis on his hands. Meanwhile, resentful, sectarian Northern Ireland continues to simmer away...
So, for now, you can take it that the Post-Truth bluebird on Johnson’s shoulder tweeting sweet nothings in his ear may well enjoy a rather shorter life than nature would have otherwise have intended.
Yup, it ain’t over by a country mile, and then some.
Tony
2019-12-16 04:41:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by JohnO
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5
* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.
We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.
Third: The Lies
Post by Rich80105
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or misguided is
irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called a racist with good
reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon equally validly. But the facts are
simple. Parliamentary democracy produced a valid and fair result.
Or wre you saying that the United Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
It wasn’t really even about democracy per se. The outcome was down solely
to which of the two main parties had the **least** coherent and persuasive
Johnson and his lot gained approx 300,000 more votes than Theresa May’s lot
in 2016. Microscopic. But Johnson’s lot had got the message loud and clear -
“Get Brexit done!” (Trump and “Make America great again!)
Corbyn and his lot had **lost** approx **2.4 million supporters** since the
last general election. Apocalyptic. Vacillating incoherence.
But even so, no one can yet solidly confirm whether or not the electorally
pivotal ‘red wall’ north of London collapsed simply because Labour heartlands
were at the end of their tether with both a vacillating, incoherent Corbyn
**and** the Brexit impasse; or whether, and way more crucially, their support
for the Tories was only a temporary one-off “vote-leasing” just to get the
“fucken deal” done once and for all and out of their hair.
From Thatcher’s time and right up until this election result, the north of
England has been a wasteland of economic stagnation and social deprivation,
Out of date. Manchester is growing faster than the rest of the UK (and EU). Same for Leeds.
The north suffered under Thatcher's necessary reforms. Better to suffer
bitter medicine than to die. Living on under a socialist economy based on coal
mines and inefficient manufacturing was not viable.
A lot of technology businesses have moved north out of London as it was too
expensive and too congested.
What this misses is that "growth" does not equate to general
prosperity - the gains in Tory Britain have, "by design", gone largely
to the already wealthy - yes there is overall "growth", but at the
same time there is more poverty and social deprivation
A statement backed up by, well, nothiing.
Post by Rich80105
Post by JohnO
poverty and decay. But since the days of Thatcher’s slash-and-burn 40
years ago, somehow and unaccountably(?), the Tories could never manage to find
a way of sufficiently funding the North's regeneration caused solely by the
destruction they had wrought upon it.
However, on the very first day after this election, the lifeless Tory money
tree has somehow, unaccountably sprung to life and born fruit to the tune of a
whacking £80billion, this if you please, to fund that very same purpose!
My, what price charity! What a fertile ground an election makes, eh? And
every single penny of it will have to be borrowed or printed, this, mark you,
when the UK is already drowning in already insupportable and increasing
deficits and public debt. This is known mockingly as, "Strength through
exhaustion".
And if this isn’t Politic’s short-term expediency laid bare, then tell me
what is. So why has this happened this time? For the same time-worn reason
that - Tory or Labour and/or their global equivalents - the electorate is
invariably bought, and today more blatantly than ever before. Hence the Tories
are gonna need to hold on to that “red-wall” majority up to and well past the
**next** general election, hoping desperately that their charitably indulgent
out-of-thin-air £80billion will do the trick.
Again, we hear a chorus of triumphal brayin’ and inane high-fivin’ greeting
Sterling’s instantaneous post-election stellar ascent from its pauperish £1.00
= E1.10 to a decidedly limp-wristed £1.00 = E1.20.
In 2000 it stood at £1.00**E1.733**. (Over the same period it has
declined from cNZ$3.00 to cNZ$2.00.) Way to go, Blighty!
Quite so, so be assured democracy has f..k all to do with it. For this you
can thank the likes of Reagan, Thatcher, Friedman and Greenspan and their
grand-larceny licensing of the City Laundry which has been turned into a global
thieves’ kitchen of Russian kleptocrats, hedge fund spivs, tax-dodgers and
embezzlers, being every one of ‘em one and the same.
But it’s good news down-under. This UK election essentially secures a free
trade deal between the UK and New Zealand, previously mutually agreed in
outline principle between the UK and Ardern; and, eventually, with the world’s
largest trading bloc - again Arden with Barnier/Merkle, the duo who effectively
control the EU agenda.
Finally, here in the South Pacific, we enjoy a peaceful unchallenged
relationship with New Caledonia. Up there in the cold, dark North, Johnson now
faces an doughty, implacable New Catalonia north of Hadrian’s Wall, and with it
the potential and ruinous risk of a constitutional crisis on his hands.
Meanwhile, resentful, sectarian Northern Ireland continues to simmer away...
So, for now, you can take it that the Post-Truth bluebird on Johnson’s
shoulder tweeting sweet nothings in his ear may well enjoy a rather shorter
life than nature would have otherwise have intended.
Yup, it ain’t over by a country mile, and then some.
JohnO
2019-12-16 05:43:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich80105
Post by JohnO
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5
* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.
We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.
Third: The Lies
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or misguided is
irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called a racist with good
reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon equally validly. But the facts are
simple. Parliamentary democracy produced a valid and fair result.
Or wre you saying that the United Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
Johnson and his lot gained approx 300,000 more votes than Theresa May’s lot in 2016. Microscopic. But Johnson’s lot had got the message loud and clear - “Get Brexit done!” (Trump and “Make America great again!)
Corbyn and his lot had **lost** approx **2.4 million supporters** since the last general election. Apocalyptic. Vacillating incoherence.
But even so, no one can yet solidly confirm whether or not the electorally pivotal ‘red wall’ north of London collapsed simply because Labour heartlands were at the end of their tether with both a vacillating, incoherent Corbyn **and** the Brexit impasse; or whether, and way more crucially, their support for the Tories was only a temporary one-off “vote-leasing” just to get the “fucken deal” done once and for all and out of their hair.
From Thatcher’s time and right up until this election result, the north of England has been a wasteland of economic stagnation and social deprivation,
Out of date. Manchester is growing faster than the rest of the UK (and EU). Same for Leeds.
The north suffered under Thatcher's necessary reforms. Better to suffer bitter medicine than to die. Living on under a socialist economy based on coal mines and inefficient manufacturing was not viable.
A lot of technology businesses have moved north out of London as it was too expensive and too congested.
What this misses is that "growth" does not equate to general
prosperity - the gains in Tory Britain have, "by design", gone largely
to the already wealthy - yes there is overall "growth", but at the
same time there is more poverty and social deprivation
You are talking shit as usual. Keith would have us believe that the North is a "wasteland of economic stagnation and social deprivation". That is plainly untrue.
Post by Rich80105
Post by JohnO
Post by James Christophers
poverty and decay. But since the days of Thatcher’s slash-and-burn 40 years ago, somehow and unaccountably(?), the Tories could never manage to find a way of sufficiently funding the North's regeneration caused solely by the destruction they had wrought upon it.
However, on the very first day after this election, the lifeless Tory money tree has somehow, unaccountably sprung to life and born fruit to the tune of a whacking £80billion, this if you please, to fund that very same purpose!
My, what price charity! What a fertile ground an election makes, eh? And every single penny of it will have to be borrowed or printed, this, mark you, when the UK is already drowning in already insupportable and increasing deficits and public debt. This is known mockingly as, "Strength through exhaustion".
And if this isn’t Politic’s short-term expediency laid bare, then tell me what is. So why has this happened this time? For the same time-worn reason that - Tory or Labour and/or their global equivalents - the electorate is invariably bought, and today more blatantly than ever before. Hence the Tories are gonna need to hold on to that “red-wall” majority up to and well past the **next** general election, hoping desperately that their charitably indulgent out-of-thin-air £80billion will do the trick.
Again, we hear a chorus of triumphal brayin’ and inane high-fivin’ greeting Sterling’s instantaneous post-election stellar ascent from its pauperish £1.00 = E1.10 to a decidedly limp-wristed £1.00 = E1.20.
In 2000 it stood at £1.00**E1.733**. (Over the same period it has declined from cNZ$3.00 to cNZ$2.00.) Way to go, Blighty!
Quite so, so be assured democracy has f..k all to do with it. For this you can thank the likes of Reagan, Thatcher, Friedman and Greenspan and their grand-larceny licensing of the City Laundry which has been turned into a global thieves’ kitchen of Russian kleptocrats, hedge fund spivs, tax-dodgers and embezzlers, being every one of ‘em one and the same.
But it’s good news down-under. This UK election essentially secures a free trade deal between the UK and New Zealand, previously mutually agreed in outline principle between the UK and Ardern; and, eventually, with the world’s largest trading bloc - again Arden with Barnier/Merkle, the duo who effectively control the EU agenda.
Finally, here in the South Pacific, we enjoy a peaceful unchallenged relationship with New Caledonia. Up there in the cold, dark North, Johnson now faces an doughty, implacable New Catalonia north of Hadrian’s Wall, and with it the potential and ruinous risk of a constitutional crisis on his hands. Meanwhile, resentful, sectarian Northern Ireland continues to simmer away...
So, for now, you can take it that the Post-Truth bluebird on Johnson’s shoulder tweeting sweet nothings in his ear may well enjoy a rather shorter life than nature would have otherwise have intended.
Yup, it ain’t over by a country mile, and then some.
Rich80105
2019-12-16 06:49:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnO
Post by Rich80105
Post by JohnO
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5
* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.
We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.
Third: The Lies
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or misguided is
irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called a racist with good
reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon equally validly. But the facts are
simple. Parliamentary democracy produced a valid and fair result.
Or wre you saying that the United Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
Johnson and his lot gained approx 300,000 more votes than Theresa May’s lot in 2016. Microscopic. But Johnson’s lot had got the message loud and clear - “Get Brexit done!” (Trump and “Make America great again!)
Corbyn and his lot had **lost** approx **2.4 million supporters** since the last general election. Apocalyptic. Vacillating incoherence.
But even so, no one can yet solidly confirm whether or not the electorally pivotal ‘red wall’ north of London collapsed simply because Labour heartlands were at the end of their tether with both a vacillating, incoherent Corbyn **and** the Brexit impasse; or whether, and way more crucially, their support for the Tories was only a temporary one-off “vote-leasing” just to get the “fucken deal” done once and for all and out of their hair.
From Thatcher’s time and right up until this election result, the north of England has been a wasteland of economic stagnation and social deprivation,
Out of date. Manchester is growing faster than the rest of the UK (and EU). Same for Leeds.
The north suffered under Thatcher's necessary reforms. Better to suffer bitter medicine than to die. Living on under a socialist economy based on coal mines and inefficient manufacturing was not viable.
A lot of technology businesses have moved north out of London as it was too expensive and too congested.
What this misses is that "growth" does not equate to general
prosperity - the gains in Tory Britain have, "by design", gone largely
to the already wealthy - yes there is overall "growth", but at the
same time there is more poverty and social deprivation
You are talking shit as usual. Keith would have us believe that the North is a "wasteland of economic stagnation and social deprivation". That is plainly untrue.
If you wish to have a discussion, you should not emulate Tony with
making every comment a personal attack. Surely you are aware that the
distribution of wealth in the UK, USA, Australia and New Zealand has
become markedly less egalitarian over the last 30 or so years - and
the Manchester area will be no different to the rest of England. In
most parts ofthe UK the majority have lost economic ground overthe
last 30 years; they are relatively poor; they have seen little or no
real inprovement in living standards; while atthe same time able to
see and hear about the "1%" with significantly higher wealth than
their equivalents from 30 years ago.
Post by JohnO
Post by Rich80105
Post by JohnO
poverty and decay. But since the days of Thatcher’s slash-and-burn 40 years ago, somehow and unaccountably(?), the Tories could never manage to find a way of sufficiently funding the North's regeneration caused solely by the destruction they had wrought upon it.
However, on the very first day after this election, the lifeless Tory money tree has somehow, unaccountably sprung to life and born fruit to the tune of a whacking £80billion, this if you please, to fund that very same purpose!
My, what price charity! What a fertile ground an election makes, eh? And every single penny of it will have to be borrowed or printed, this, mark you, when the UK is already drowning in already insupportable and increasing deficits and public debt. This is known mockingly as, "Strength through exhaustion".
And if this isn’t Politic’s short-term expediency laid bare, then tell me what is. So why has this happened this time? For the same time-worn reason that - Tory or Labour and/or their global equivalents - the electorate is invariably bought, and today more blatantly than ever before. Hence the Tories are gonna need to hold on to that “red-wall” majority up to and well past the **next** general election, hoping desperately that their charitably indulgent out-of-thin-air £80billion will do the trick.
Again, we hear a chorus of triumphal brayin’ and inane high-fivin’ greeting Sterling’s instantaneous post-election stellar ascent from its pauperish £1.00 = E1.10 to a decidedly limp-wristed £1.00 = E1.20.
In 2000 it stood at £1.00**E1.733**. (Over the same period it has declined from cNZ$3.00 to cNZ$2.00.) Way to go, Blighty!
Quite so, so be assured democracy has f..k all to do with it. For this you can thank the likes of Reagan, Thatcher, Friedman and Greenspan and their grand-larceny licensing of the City Laundry which has been turned into a global thieves’ kitchen of Russian kleptocrats, hedge fund spivs, tax-dodgers and embezzlers, being every one of ‘em one and the same.
But it’s good news down-under. This UK election essentially secures a free trade deal between the UK and New Zealand, previously mutually agreed in outline principle between the UK and Ardern; and, eventually, with the world’s largest trading bloc - again Arden with Barnier/Merkle, the duo who effectively control the EU agenda.
Finally, here in the South Pacific, we enjoy a peaceful unchallenged relationship with New Caledonia. Up there in the cold, dark North, Johnson now faces an doughty, implacable New Catalonia north of Hadrian’s Wall, and with it the potential and ruinous risk of a constitutional crisis on his hands. Meanwhile, resentful, sectarian Northern Ireland continues to simmer away...
So, for now, you can take it that the Post-Truth bluebird on Johnson’s shoulder tweeting sweet nothings in his ear may well enjoy a rather shorter life than nature would have otherwise have intended.
Yup, it ain’t over by a country mile, and then some.
Tony
2019-12-16 06:57:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnO
Post by Rich80105
Post by JohnO
On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 3:35:24 PM UTC+13,
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5
* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.
We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.
Third: The Lies
Post by Rich80105
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or misguided is
irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called a racist with good
reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon equally validly. But the
facts are
simple. Parliamentary democracy produced a valid and fair result.
Or wre you saying that the United Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
It wasn’t really even about democracy per se. The outcome was down
solely to which of the two main parties had the **least** coherent and
Johnson and his lot gained approx 300,000 more votes than Theresa May’s
lot in 2016. Microscopic. But Johnson’s lot had got the message loud and clear
- “Get Brexit done!” (Trump and “Make America great again!)
Corbyn and his lot had **lost** approx **2.4 million supporters** since
the last general election. Apocalyptic. Vacillating incoherence.
But even so, no one can yet solidly confirm whether or not the
electorally pivotal ‘red wall’ north of London collapsed simply because Labour
heartlands were at the end of their tether with both a vacillating, incoherent
Corbyn **and** the Brexit impasse; or whether, and way more crucially, their
support for the Tories was only a temporary one-off “vote-leasing” just to get
the “fucken deal” done once and for all and out of their hair.
From Thatcher’s time and right up until this election result, the north
of England has been a wasteland of economic stagnation and social deprivation,
Out of date. Manchester is growing faster than the rest of the UK (and
EU). Same for Leeds.
The north suffered under Thatcher's necessary reforms. Better to suffer
bitter medicine than to die. Living on under a socialist economy based on coal
mines and inefficient manufacturing was not viable.
A lot of technology businesses have moved north out of London as it was
too expensive and too congested.
What this misses is that "growth" does not equate to general
prosperity - the gains in Tory Britain have, "by design", gone largely
to the already wealthy - yes there is overall "growth", but at the
same time there is more poverty and social deprivation
You are talking shit as usual. Keith would have us believe that the North is
a "wasteland of economic stagnation and social deprivation". That is plainly
untrue.
Lies. nonsense and personal abuse removed.
Post by JohnO
Post by Rich80105
Post by JohnO
poverty and decay. But since the days of Thatcher’s slash-and-burn 40
years ago, somehow and unaccountably(?), the Tories could never manage to find
a way of sufficiently funding the North's regeneration caused solely by the
destruction they had wrought upon it.
However, on the very first day after this election, the lifeless Tory
money tree has somehow, unaccountably sprung to life and born fruit to the tune
of a whacking £80billion, this if you please, to fund that very same purpose!
My, what price charity! What a fertile ground an election makes, eh?
And every single penny of it will have to be borrowed or printed, this, mark
you, when the UK is already drowning in already insupportable and increasing
deficits and public debt. This is known mockingly as, "Strength through
exhaustion".
And if this isn’t Politic’s short-term expediency laid bare, then tell
me what is. So why has this happened this time? For the same time-worn reason
that - Tory or Labour and/or their global equivalents - the electorate is
invariably bought, and today more blatantly than ever before. Hence the Tories
are gonna need to hold on to that “red-wall” majority up to and well past the
**next** general election, hoping desperately that their charitably indulgent
out-of-thin-air £80billion will do the trick.
Again, we hear a chorus of triumphal brayin’ and inane high-fivin’
greeting Sterling’s instantaneous post-election stellar ascent from its
pauperish £1.00 = E1.10 to a decidedly limp-wristed £1.00 = E1.20.
In 2000 it stood at £1.00**E1.733**. (Over the same period it has
declined from cNZ$3.00 to cNZ$2.00.) Way to go, Blighty!
Quite so, so be assured democracy has f..k all to do with it. For this
you can thank the likes of Reagan, Thatcher, Friedman and Greenspan and their
grand-larceny licensing of the City Laundry which has been turned into a global
thieves’ kitchen of Russian kleptocrats, hedge fund spivs, tax-dodgers and
embezzlers, being every one of ‘em one and the same.
But it’s good news down-under. This UK election essentially secures a
free trade deal between the UK and New Zealand, previously mutually agreed in
outline principle between the UK and Ardern; and, eventually, with the world’s
largest trading bloc - again Arden with Barnier/Merkle, the duo who effectively
control the EU agenda.
Finally, here in the South Pacific, we enjoy a peaceful unchallenged
relationship with New Caledonia. Up there in the cold, dark North, Johnson now
faces an doughty, implacable New Catalonia north of Hadrian’s Wall, and with it
the potential and ruinous risk of a constitutional crisis on his hands.
Meanwhile, resentful, sectarian Northern Ireland continues to simmer away...
So, for now, you can take it that the Post-Truth bluebird on Johnson’s
shoulder tweeting sweet nothings in his ear may well enjoy a rather shorter
life than nature would have otherwise have intended.
Yup, it ain’t over by a country mile, and then some.
James Christophers
2019-12-16 07:19:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnO
Post by Rich80105
Post by JohnO
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5
* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.
We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.
Third: The Lies
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or misguided is
irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called a racist with good
reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon equally validly. But the facts are
simple. Parliamentary democracy produced a valid and fair result.
Or wre you saying that the United Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
Johnson and his lot gained approx 300,000 more votes than Theresa May’s lot in 2016. Microscopic. But Johnson’s lot had got the message loud and clear - “Get Brexit done!” (Trump and “Make America great again!)
Corbyn and his lot had **lost** approx **2.4 million supporters** since the last general election. Apocalyptic. Vacillating incoherence.
But even so, no one can yet solidly confirm whether or not the electorally pivotal ‘red wall’ north of London collapsed simply because Labour heartlands were at the end of their tether with both a vacillating, incoherent Corbyn **and** the Brexit impasse; or whether, and way more crucially, their support for the Tories was only a temporary one-off “vote-leasing” just to get the “fucken deal” done once and for all and out of their hair.
From Thatcher’s time and right up until this election result, the north of England has been a wasteland of economic stagnation and social deprivation,
Out of date. Manchester is growing faster than the rest of the UK (and EU). Same for Leeds.
The north suffered under Thatcher's necessary reforms. Better to suffer bitter medicine than to die. Living on under a socialist economy based on coal mines and inefficient manufacturing was not viable.
A lot of technology businesses have moved north out of London as it was too expensive and too congested.
What this misses is that "growth" does not equate to general
prosperity - the gains in Tory Britain have, "by design", gone largely
to the already wealthy - yes there is overall "growth", but at the
same time there is more poverty and social deprivation
You are talking shit as usual.
We'll see...
Post by JohnO
Keith would have us believe that the North is a "wasteland of economic stagnation and social deprivation". That is plainly untrue.
Yup. All £80BILLION of manifest truth, and counting; and that's only just the start of it to make any significant impact and to begin to turn things round; because still-employable skills and experience have long since fled with wife, child and dog to more rewarding pastures. Many of 'em have even gratefully pitched up here.

And even so, in any case, any desert has its occasional oases.

Also ask the good people of, say, Newcastle about their beloved hometown's plight Then ask yourself why British TV has been making so many dramas in that region if not - in part - to reassure its people that tBrtish society at large has not completely abandoned them as a bunch of talentless dullards and wasters.

So feel free to disbelieve all you like. After all, who's going to believe you other than you and your sheet-anchor and demented little blowhard, the Little Trentham Troll?
Post by JohnO
Post by Rich80105
Post by JohnO
Post by James Christophers
poverty and decay. But since the days of Thatcher’s slash-and-burn 40 years ago, somehow and unaccountably(?), the Tories could never manage to find a way of sufficiently funding the North's regeneration caused solely by the destruction they had wrought upon it.
However, on the very first day after this election, the lifeless Tory money tree has somehow, unaccountably sprung to life and born fruit to the tune of a whacking £80billion, this if you please, to fund that very same purpose!
My, what price charity! What a fertile ground an election makes, eh? And every single penny of it will have to be borrowed or printed, this, mark you, when the UK is already drowning in already insupportable and increasing deficits and public debt. This is known mockingly as, "Strength through exhaustion".
And if this isn’t Politic’s short-term expediency laid bare, then tell me what is. So why has this happened this time? For the same time-worn reason that - Tory or Labour and/or their global equivalents - the electorate is invariably bought, and today more blatantly than ever before. Hence the Tories are gonna need to hold on to that “red-wall” majority up to and well past the **next** general election, hoping desperately that their charitably indulgent out-of-thin-air £80billion will do the trick.
Again, we hear a chorus of triumphal brayin’ and inane high-fivin’ greeting Sterling’s instantaneous post-election stellar ascent from its pauperish £1.00 = E1.10 to a decidedly limp-wristed £1.00 = E1.20.
In 2000 it stood at £1.00**E1.733**. (Over the same period it has declined from cNZ$3.00 to cNZ$2.00.) Way to go, Blighty!
Quite so, so be assured democracy has f..k all to do with it. For this you can thank the likes of Reagan, Thatcher, Friedman and Greenspan and their grand-larceny licensing of the City Laundry which has been turned into a global thieves’ kitchen of Russian kleptocrats, hedge fund spivs, tax-dodgers and embezzlers, being every one of ‘em one and the same.
But it’s good news down-under. This UK election essentially secures a free trade deal between the UK and New Zealand, previously mutually agreed in outline principle between the UK and Ardern; and, eventually, with the world’s largest trading bloc - again Arden with Barnier/Merkle, the duo who effectively control the EU agenda.
Finally, here in the South Pacific, we enjoy a peaceful unchallenged relationship with New Caledonia. Up there in the cold, dark North, Johnson now faces an doughty, implacable New Catalonia north of Hadrian’s Wall, and with it the potential and ruinous risk of a constitutional crisis on his hands. Meanwhile, resentful, sectarian Northern Ireland continues to simmer away...
So, for now, you can take it that the Post-Truth bluebird on Johnson’s shoulder tweeting sweet nothings in his ear may well enjoy a rather shorter life than nature would have otherwise have intended.
Yup, it ain’t over by a country mile, and then some.
James Christophers
2019-12-16 04:48:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnO
Post by James Christophers
Post by Tony
Post by Rich80105
The first is that clarity is important - The Comservatives purged
their party of those that disagreed with Brexit and pushed it through
slogans, determined not to allow any details to emerge.
Party Seats Votes('000) Ppl*
Cons 365 13,966 294
Lab 203 10,295 209
SNP 48 1,242 25
LibDem 11 3,696 75
Dem Un 8 244 5
Sinn Fein 7 182 4
Plaid Cym 4 153 3
SocD&Lab 2 119 2
Green 1 867 18
Alliance 1 134 3
Brexit 0 642 13
Ind 0 197 4
Change 0 10 0
Other 0 264 5
* Ppl - proportional, is the number of seats if these were allocated
on the basis of total votes for the party - similar to our MMP system.
We happily talk about one person one vote, but the reality is that in
the UK, on average each Labour seat required 50,700 votes, whereas on
average each Conservative seat requires 38,200 seats, and the Green
party with 865,000 votes got only one seat!.
Third: The Lies
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Here we do not have a system of independent fact-checking and
assessment of political statements and advertising - we need one, with
significant penalties for those involved (political parties and
media).
Brexit is the choice of the electorate, whether knowledgeable or misguided is
irrelevant, the leader of the opposition has been called a racist with good
reason, the new PM has been called a buffoon equally validly. But the facts are
simple. Parliamentary democracy produced a valid and fair result.
Or wre you saying that the United Kingdon parliamentary system is corrupt?
Johnson and his lot gained approx 300,000 more votes than Theresa May’s lot in 2016. Microscopic. But Johnson’s lot had got the message loud and clear - “Get Brexit done!” (Trump and “Make America great again!)
Corbyn and his lot had **lost** approx **2.4 million supporters** since the last general election. Apocalyptic. Vacillating incoherence.
But even so, no one can yet solidly confirm whether or not the electorally pivotal ‘red wall’ north of London collapsed simply because Labour heartlands were at the end of their tether with both a vacillating, incoherent Corbyn **and** the Brexit impasse; or whether, and way more crucially, their support for the Tories was only a temporary one-off “vote-leasing” just to get the “fucken deal” done once and for all and out of their hair.
From Thatcher’s time and right up until this election result, the north of England has been a wasteland of economic stagnation and social deprivation,
Out of date. Manchester is growing faster than the rest of the UK (and EU). Same for Leeds.
In relative isolation and for a very good reason. Manchester created the modern world. Period. This process found its apogee in the Industrial Revolution, creating forever in the north of England an abiding sense of drive and momentum (I hail from Cheshire BTW) that still continue to this day. Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds and Glasgow (the last less so until more recently) have always since the 19th century thrived as original centres of invention, industry, commerce and the arts; Liverpool, with its international trading and slave-trade port plus its Birkenhead shipbuilding yards...etc. As for the others, the rest you know.

But for a terrible example of the worst and still unremediated unemployment stats, look only down the road from Leeds, Liverpool and Manchester to nearby mining town Barnsley. This same intractable problem has for too long reflected right through the original mining commununities of the north.

During the same period, Sheffield - onetime epicentre of the global steel industry - took a king hit when cheaper, slave-wage foreign steel imports arrived.

Doncaster's world-centre of railway technology, design and manufacture developed and grew at a time when the network was expanding at a hectic pace, primarily to meet the coal industry's need for efficient links to every possible outlet across the nation - witness the still extraordinarily 'dense' network/matrix that is its legacy despite Beeching's 1960's slash and burn policies. With the exception of Glasgow, all these cities are within a relative stone's throw of each other, their intellectual mix, inventiveness, crafts, ethos and sheer nous reinforced by their mutually shared history and proximity.

Glasgow and Edinburgh both shared with the more southern cities exactly the same intellectual depth, drive and rigour in their inventiveness and execution of their industry, business and finance. Now put together all these super-centres of excellence and drive, plus the now defunct Bradford wool industry; **then** add a merchant fleet to die for and you have the rise and rise of the world's mightiest industrial super-power.

All this continued, but not unchallenged, until approximately the beginning of WW2. When this ended, the defeated aggressors Germany and Japan received stratospheric funds from the US and World Bank to reconstruct their industries from ground base and also to dissuade them from any tempation to have another go. Plus, to ensure that then-backward commie Russia could be held at bay. But Britain? Zilch plus another zilch. So an already bombed-out, war-bankrupted nation was left with its pre-war industries, such as they were, now outdated and unfunded in a way that would have enabled them to modernise and regenerate so as to compete with the rise of technocrat newbies like lucky ol' warmongers Germany and Japan et al.

The country has never since recovered.
Post by JohnO
The north suffered under Thatcher's necessary reforms. Better to suffer bitter medicine than to die. Living on under a socialist economy based on coal mines and inefficient manufacturing was not viable.
Fair enough; but now you know how and why it was that, with the rapidly increasing advance of science and technology across the rest of the developed world, a technology-based country that had previously governed and controlled the entire world of industry and commerce, had been since 1945 financially hog-tied hand and foot.

What it had managed to achieve since WW2 was certainly creditable, remarkable, even. But it was still nowhere near enough. Its still-critical reliance on coal and the power the mining workers could therefore wield being only one small if significant symptom of its failure to advance on all industrial and technological fronts to compete. Another was its lame car industry that insisted the world must just shut up and buy whatever half-pie heaps the British were producing.

That said - and I have no sympathy whatever for the kind of unionism represented by the likes of Scargill - the moment Heath sold his party's soul to Thatcher, all that then followed was as inevitable as night follows day, and Britain is still living with its morally and socially corrosive consequences to this day.

This is what can only happen when Finance buys, wholesale, a nation's governance while at the same time Society at large is spurned and dumped as an expensive, self-indulgent irritant, it being the pathology of fractious little people and losers.

(Excuse typos, punctuations and hanging clauses etc. but I'm having to type in the Google browser and I reckon it's not the best platform for consistent accuracy or finer scrutiny.)
Post by JohnO
A lot of technology businesses have moved north out of London as it was too expensive and too congested.
Post by James Christophers
poverty and decay. But since the days of Thatcher’s slash-and-burn 40 years ago, somehow and unaccountably(?), the Tories could never manage to find a way of sufficiently funding the North's regeneration caused solely by the destruction they had wrought upon it.
However, on the very first day after this election, the lifeless Tory money tree has somehow, unaccountably sprung to life and born fruit to the tune of a whacking £80billion, this if you please, to fund that very same purpose!
My, what price charity! What a fertile ground an election makes, eh? And every single penny of it will have to be borrowed or printed, this, mark you, when the UK is already drowning in already insupportable and increasing deficits and public debt. This is known mockingly as, "Strength through exhaustion".
And if this isn’t Politic’s short-term expediency laid bare, then tell me what is. So why has this happened this time? For the same time-worn reason that - Tory or Labour and/or their global equivalents - the electorate is invariably bought, and today more blatantly than ever before. Hence the Tories are gonna need to hold on to that “red-wall” majority up to and well past the **next** general election, hoping desperately that their charitably indulgent out-of-thin-air £80billion will do the trick.
Again, we hear a chorus of triumphal brayin’ and inane high-fivin’ greeting Sterling’s instantaneous post-election stellar ascent from its pauperish £1.00 = E1.10 to a decidedly limp-wristed £1.00 = E1.20.
In 2000 it stood at £1.00**E1.733**. (Over the same period it has declined from cNZ$3.00 to cNZ$2.00.) Way to go, Blighty!
Quite so, so be assured democracy has f..k all to do with it. For this you can thank the likes of Reagan, Thatcher, Friedman and Greenspan and their grand-larceny licensing of the City Laundry which has been turned into a global thieves’ kitchen of Russian kleptocrats, hedge fund spivs, tax-dodgers and embezzlers, being every one of ‘em one and the same.
But it’s good news down-under. This UK election essentially secures a free trade deal between the UK and New Zealand, previously mutually agreed in outline principle between the UK and Ardern; and, eventually, with the world’s largest trading bloc - again Arden with Barnier/Merkle, the duo who effectively control the EU agenda.
Finally, here in the South Pacific, we enjoy a peaceful unchallenged relationship with New Caledonia. Up there in the cold, dark North, Johnson now faces an doughty, implacable New Catalonia north of Hadrian’s Wall, and with it the potential and ruinous risk of a constitutional crisis on his hands. Meanwhile, resentful, sectarian Northern Ireland continues to simmer away...
So, for now, you can take it that the Post-Truth bluebird on Johnson’s shoulder tweeting sweet nothings in his ear may well enjoy a rather shorter life than nature would have otherwise have intended.
Yup, it ain’t over by a country mile, and then some.
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