Crunch time - anyone for a positive vote

[Crash]

Its today or tomorrow to vote.

In weighing up the options I am not able to identify a credible and
acceptable alternative to National. Instinctively I have always
believed that National are flawed. I favour increased government
spending on education and health in particular and I believe National
has delivered better targeting of where our money is spent for desired
results. I don't believe a tax cut is warranted yet.

The key though is that if not National, who to vote for? Realistically
Labour is the only serious option because all the rest will be
minority parties in a government dominated by National or Labour.

Labour is a political party dominated by Trade Unions. I spent half
my working life with compulsory Union membership. I changed careers
to an industry exempt from compulsory Union membership so I have a
core aversion to any suggestion that we return to any form of
compulsory union membership. However in the past I lived in Mike
Moore's
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Moore_(New_Zealand_politician))

electorate and voted for him in FPP days. I would party vote Labour
if they could produce credible reasons to do this. With Andrew
Little's last-minute resignation prior to the election it was unlikely
that the new leader would have the required credibility and so it has
proved. I am in Ohariu and have the same dilemma with choosing which
candidate to vote for now that Peter Dunne has retired (even more of a
last-minute decision).

Looking at Labour's website and for rejuvenated policies under new
leader Jacinda Ardern, with a bit of digging I found this:

http://www.labour.org.nz/workplacerelations

Scroll down to the bottom - and read 'Fair Pay Agreements' and tell me
how this policy can be enacted without compulsory union membership
being a foundation requirement. That, for me, is a no-go area - I
simply will never vote Labour with a policy like this. National does
not have any policies that for me have no-go status.

National are a known quantity and their flaws are lamentable but
tolerable. Their Parliamentary leaders have been OK if uninspiring.

Labour have finally found a Parliamentary leader who has significant
charisma and voter empathy. Neither she nor the party is ready for
government yet - but 3 years is plenty of time to step up.



--
Crash McBash

[Crash]

Post by Crash
Its today or tomorrow to vote.
In weighing up the options I am not able to identify a credible and
acceptable alternative to National. Instinctively I have always
believed that National are flawed. I favour increased government
spending on education and health in particular and I believe National
has delivered better targeting of where our money is spent for desired
results. I don't believe a tax cut is warranted yet.
The key though is that if not National, who to vote for? Realistically
Labour is the only serious option because all the rest will be
minority parties in a government dominated by National or Labour.
Labour is a political party dominated by Trade Unions. I spent half
my working life with compulsory Union membership. I changed careers
to an industry exempt from compulsory Union membership so I have a
core aversion to any suggestion that we return to any form of
compulsory union membership. However in the past I lived in Mike
Moore's
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Moore_(New_Zealand_politician))
electorate and voted for him in FPP days. I would party vote Labour
if they could produce credible reasons to do this. With Andrew
Little's last-minute resignation prior to the election it was unlikely
that the new leader would have the required credibility and so it has
proved. I am in Ohariu and have the same dilemma with choosing which
candidate to vote for now that Peter Dunne has retired (even more of a
last-minute decision).
Looking at Labour's website and for rejuvenated policies under new
http://www.labour.org.nz/workplacerelations
Scroll down to the bottom - and read 'Fair Pay Agreements' and tell me
how this policy can be enacted without compulsory union membership
being a foundation requirement. That, for me, is a no-go area - I
simply will never vote Labour with a policy like this. National does
not have any policies that for me have no-go status.

Just as a follow up I found this on stuff subsequent to my OP:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/97072267/labours-fair-pay-agreements-mark-biggest-industrial-relations-change-in-a-decade

The writer of this article is clearly biased. The article itself is
illuminating but only from an employer's perspective. The reason I
have posted on this though is the Editors Note right at the end.

Post by Crash
National are a known quantity and their flaws are lamentable but
tolerable. Their Parliamentary leaders have been OK if uninspiring.
Labour have finally found a Parliamentary leader who has significant
charisma and voter empathy. Neither she nor the party is ready for
government yet - but 3 years is plenty of time to step up.

--
Crash McBash

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by Crash
Its today or tomorrow to vote.
In weighing up the options I am not able to identify a credible and
acceptable alternative to National. Instinctively I have always
believed that National are flawed. I favour increased government
spending on education and health in particular and I believe National
has delivered better targeting of where our money is spent for desired
results. I don't believe a tax cut is warranted yet.
The key though is that if not National, who to vote for? Realistically
Labour is the only serious option because all the rest will be
minority parties in a government dominated by National or Labour.
Labour is a political party dominated by Trade Unions. I spent half
my working life with compulsory Union membership. I changed careers
to an industry exempt from compulsory Union membership so I have a
core aversion to any suggestion that we return to any form of
compulsory union membership. However in the past I lived in Mike
Moore's
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Moore_(New_Zealand_politician))
electorate and voted for him in FPP days. I would party vote Labour
if they could produce credible reasons to do this. With Andrew
Little's last-minute resignation prior to the election it was unlikely
that the new leader would have the required credibility and so it has
proved. I am in Ohariu and have the same dilemma with choosing which
candidate to vote for now that Peter Dunne has retired (even more of a
last-minute decision).
Looking at Labour's website and for rejuvenated policies under new
http://www.labour.org.nz/workplacerelations
Scroll down to the bottom - and read 'Fair Pay Agreements' and tell me
how this policy can be enacted without compulsory union membership
being a foundation requirement. That, for me, is a no-go area - I
simply will never vote Labour with a policy like this. National does
not have any policies that for me have no-go status.
National are a known quantity and their flaws are lamentable but
tolerable. Their Parliamentary leaders have been OK if uninspiring.
Labour have finally found a Parliamentary leader who has significant
charisma and voter empathy. Neither she nor the party is ready for
government yet - but 3 years is plenty of time to step up.

Good post Crash, and it closely aligns with my own sentiments.

If re-elected, I believe the next three years will see a significant number of chickens coming home to roost for the current incumbents; but over the next three years there should be solid evidence of credible and well-thought-through alternative policies coming from a potential challenger. However gung-ho and complacent embedded administrations may be, they invariably get their eventual bum's rush.

The conundrum for the electorate is that when it comes down to hard tacks, the difference between the two major parties is really more that of polarised vote-grabbing rhetoric and dissimulation rather than any discernible ideology which in any case is invariably foggy and unconvincing at best.

Indeed, as outside commentators have always observed, no matter which party is running the show, New Zealand has yet to shake off its all-parties reputation as:

1. 'The most communistic member of the Commonwealth.'... and therefore:

2. 'Unreliable' (code word) in terms of its membership of the West's international intelligence and security treaties and agreements, such treaties and agreements today having at least as much to do with critical economic intelligence as militaristic posturing.

[Rich80105]

Post by Crash
Its today or tomorrow to vote.
In weighing up the options I am not able to identify a credible and
acceptable alternative to National. Instinctively I have always
believed that National are flawed. I favour increased government
spending on education and health in particular and I believe National
has delivered better targeting of where our money is spent for desired
results. I don't believe a tax cut is warranted yet.
The key though is that if not National, who to vote for? Realistically
Labour is the only serious option because all the rest will be
minority parties in a government dominated by National or Labour.
Labour is a political party dominated by Trade Unions. I spent half
my working life with compulsory Union membership. I changed careers
to an industry exempt from compulsory Union membership so I have a
core aversion to any suggestion that we return to any form of
compulsory union membership. However in the past I lived in Mike
Moore's
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Moore_(New_Zealand_politician))
electorate and voted for him in FPP days. I would party vote Labour
if they could produce credible reasons to do this. With Andrew
Little's last-minute resignation prior to the election it was unlikely
that the new leader would have the required credibility and so it has
proved. I am in Ohariu and have the same dilemma with choosing which
candidate to vote for now that Peter Dunne has retired (even more of a
last-minute decision).
Looking at Labour's website and for rejuvenated policies under new
http://www.labour.org.nz/workplacerelations
Scroll down to the bottom - and read 'Fair Pay Agreements' and tell me
how this policy can be enacted without compulsory union membership
being a foundation requirement. That, for me, is a no-go area - I
simply will never vote Labour with a policy like this. National does
not have any policies that for me have no-go status.

Relatively small changes to the Employment relations legislation is
all that is needed. I do not believe there is any call from within
Labour for a return to comuplsory unionism - if anyone thinks there
is, perhaps they could give a cite . . .

Post by Crash
National are a known quantity and their flaws are lamentable but
tolerable. Their Parliamentary leaders have been OK if uninspiring.
Labour have finally found a Parliamentary leader who has significant
charisma and voter empathy. Neither she nor the party is ready for
government yet - but 3 years is plenty of time to step up.

National have proved to be liars who have no ideas of their own, who
have resulted in diasters in Housing, health and education, and a
fixation on roading projects with a low or negative return on
investment. Time for a change.

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by Rich80105

Post by Crash
Its today or tomorrow to vote.
In weighing up the options I am not able to identify a credible and
acceptable alternative to National. Instinctively I have always
believed that National are flawed. I favour increased government
spending on education and health in particular and I believe National
has delivered better targeting of where our money is spent for desired
results. I don't believe a tax cut is warranted yet.
The key though is that if not National, who to vote for? Realistically
Labour is the only serious option because all the rest will be
minority parties in a government dominated by National or Labour.
Labour is a political party dominated by Trade Unions. I spent half
my working life with compulsory Union membership. I changed careers
to an industry exempt from compulsory Union membership so I have a
core aversion to any suggestion that we return to any form of
compulsory union membership. However in the past I lived in Mike
Moore's
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Moore_(New_Zealand_politician))
electorate and voted for him in FPP days. I would party vote Labour
if they could produce credible reasons to do this. With Andrew
Little's last-minute resignation prior to the election it was unlikely
that the new leader would have the required credibility and so it has
proved. I am in Ohariu and have the same dilemma with choosing which
candidate to vote for now that Peter Dunne has retired (even more of a
last-minute decision).
Looking at Labour's website and for rejuvenated policies under new
http://www.labour.org.nz/workplacerelations
Scroll down to the bottom - and read 'Fair Pay Agreements' and tell me
how this policy can be enacted without compulsory union membership
being a foundation requirement. That, for me, is a no-go area - I
simply will never vote Labour with a policy like this. National does
not have any policies that for me have no-go status.

Relatively small changes to the Employment relations legislation is
all that is needed. I do not believe there is any call from within
Labour for a return to comuplsory unionism - if anyone thinks there
is, perhaps they could give a cite . . .

Worth bearing in mind that the Labour Party was founded in the UK in 1900 as the political wing of a working-class movement long since established in the early 1800's. The first union as such was founded a decade or two later with the purpose of improving the lot of the 19th century worker at the hands of their employers.

So, in a traditional sense, Labour **is** the unions, although nowadays it has decoupled itself from the remnants of the original raison d'être of the union movement per se, and has more relevance nowadays as the working man's voice challenging the ideologies and machinery of Capital which was originally regarded, ideologically, as its polar adversary.

The irony is that, to this day, Labour voters number among some of the staunchest supporters of conservatism (small 'c') on the planet. Alf Garnett's all.

Indeed, can assure any doubters out there that, at LWT during the early 1970's, among the most vociferous members of the union were assorted coteries of true blue rednecks, xenophobes and racists who, had they been discovered by the KKK, would have found a warm welcome without even going to the trouble of applying to join!

[Crash]

Post by Rich80105

Post by Crash
Its today or tomorrow to vote.
In weighing up the options I am not able to identify a credible and
acceptable alternative to National. Instinctively I have always
believed that National are flawed. I favour increased government
spending on education and health in particular and I believe National
has delivered better targeting of where our money is spent for desired
results. I don't believe a tax cut is warranted yet.
The key though is that if not National, who to vote for? Realistically
Labour is the only serious option because all the rest will be
minority parties in a government dominated by National or Labour.
Labour is a political party dominated by Trade Unions. I spent half
my working life with compulsory Union membership. I changed careers
to an industry exempt from compulsory Union membership so I have a
core aversion to any suggestion that we return to any form of
compulsory union membership. However in the past I lived in Mike
Moore's
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Moore_(New_Zealand_politician))
electorate and voted for him in FPP days. I would party vote Labour
if they could produce credible reasons to do this. With Andrew
Little's last-minute resignation prior to the election it was unlikely
that the new leader would have the required credibility and so it has
proved. I am in Ohariu and have the same dilemma with choosing which
candidate to vote for now that Peter Dunne has retired (even more of a
last-minute decision).
Looking at Labour's website and for rejuvenated policies under new
http://www.labour.org.nz/workplacerelations
Scroll down to the bottom - and read 'Fair Pay Agreements' and tell me
how this policy can be enacted without compulsory union membership
being a foundation requirement. That, for me, is a no-go area - I
simply will never vote Labour with a policy like this. National does
not have any policies that for me have no-go status.

Relatively small changes to the Employment relations legislation is
all that is needed.

Cite please.

Post by Rich80105
I do not believe there is any call from within
Labour for a return to comuplsory unionism - if anyone thinks there
is, perhaps they could give a cite . . .

Please read the section on FPAs again, particularly the first sentence
of the last paragraph, and explain how for a given industry employers
can opt out and employees can opt out.

Post by Rich80105

Post by Crash
National are a known quantity and their flaws are lamentable but
tolerable. Their Parliamentary leaders have been OK if uninspiring.
Labour have finally found a Parliamentary leader who has significant
charisma and voter empathy. Neither she nor the party is ready for
government yet - but 3 years is plenty of time to step up.

National have proved to be liars who have no ideas of their own, who
have resulted in diasters in Housing, health and education, and a
fixation on roading projects with a low or negative return on
investment.

Not true Rich. National have been re-elected twice and going for 3 in
a row. If what you said were to be true how come Labour have failed
twice to defeat National?

Post by Rich80105
Time for a change.

Correct but there is no credible alternative. As I said earlier there
may well be one in the next general election.


--
Crash McBash

[Tony]

Post by Crash
Its today or tomorrow to vote.
In weighing up the options I am not able to identify a credible and
acceptable alternative to National. Instinctively I have always
believed that National are flawed. I favour increased government
spending on education and health in particular and I believe National
has delivered better targeting of where our money is spent for desired
results. I don't believe a tax cut is warranted yet.
The key though is that if not National, who to vote for? Realistically
Labour is the only serious option because all the rest will be
minority parties in a government dominated by National or Labour.
Labour is a political party dominated by Trade Unions. I spent half
my working life with compulsory Union membership. I changed careers
to an industry exempt from compulsory Union membership so I have a
core aversion to any suggestion that we return to any form of
compulsory union membership. However in the past I lived in Mike
Moore's
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Moore_(New_Zealand_politician))
electorate and voted for him in FPP days. I would party vote Labour
if they could produce credible reasons to do this. With Andrew
Little's last-minute resignation prior to the election it was unlikely
that the new leader would have the required credibility and so it has
proved. I am in Ohariu and have the same dilemma with choosing which
candidate to vote for now that Peter Dunne has retired (even more of a
last-minute decision).
Looking at Labour's website and for rejuvenated policies under new
http://www.labour.org.nz/workplacerelations
Scroll down to the bottom - and read 'Fair Pay Agreements' and tell me
how this policy can be enacted without compulsory union membership
being a foundation requirement. That, for me, is a no-go area - I
simply will never vote Labour with a policy like this. National does
not have any policies that for me have no-go status.
National are a known quantity and their flaws are lamentable but
tolerable. Their Parliamentary leaders have been OK if uninspiring.
Labour have finally found a Parliamentary leader who has significant
charisma and voter empathy. Neither she nor the party is ready for
government yet - but 3 years is plenty of time to step up.
--
Crash McBash

Compulsory unionism is for me anathema.
I am a supporter of people being members of a union if they so wish and I am in
favour of employers being expected to reasonably support that choice.
Making someone join one is to me an invasion of privacy and a total disprespect
of the individuals right to make their own choices. It would take us back to
the time when businesses and their staff did not talk, surely that cannot be on
the cards!
I was shocked to read this.
Tony

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by Tony

Post by Crash
Its today or tomorrow to vote.
In weighing up the options I am not able to identify a credible and
acceptable alternative to National. Instinctively I have always
believed that National are flawed. I favour increased government
spending on education and health in particular and I believe National
has delivered better targeting of where our money is spent for desired
results. I don't believe a tax cut is warranted yet.
The key though is that if not National, who to vote for? Realistically
Labour is the only serious option because all the rest will be
minority parties in a government dominated by National or Labour.
Labour is a political party dominated by Trade Unions. I spent half
my working life with compulsory Union membership. I changed careers
to an industry exempt from compulsory Union membership so I have a
core aversion to any suggestion that we return to any form of
compulsory union membership. However in the past I lived in Mike
Moore's
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Moore_(New_Zealand_politician))
electorate and voted for him in FPP days. I would party vote Labour
if they could produce credible reasons to do this. With Andrew
Little's last-minute resignation prior to the election it was unlikely
that the new leader would have the required credibility and so it has
proved. I am in Ohariu and have the same dilemma with choosing which
candidate to vote for now that Peter Dunne has retired (even more of a
last-minute decision).
Looking at Labour's website and for rejuvenated policies under new
http://www.labour.org.nz/workplacerelations
Scroll down to the bottom - and read 'Fair Pay Agreements' and tell me
how this policy can be enacted without compulsory union membership
being a foundation requirement. That, for me, is a no-go area - I
simply will never vote Labour with a policy like this. National does
not have any policies that for me have no-go status.
National are a known quantity and their flaws are lamentable but
tolerable. Their Parliamentary leaders have been OK if uninspiring.
Labour have finally found a Parliamentary leader who has significant
charisma and voter empathy. Neither she nor the party is ready for
government yet - but 3 years is plenty of time to step up.
--
Crash McBash

Compulsory unionism is for me anathema.
I am a supporter of people being members of a union if they so wish and I am in
favour of employers being expected to reasonably support that choice.
Making someone join one is to me an invasion of privacy and a total disprespect
of the individuals right to make their own choices. It would take us back to
the time when businesses and their staff did not talk, surely that cannot be on
the cards!
I was shocked to read this.

Longer ago than I care to remember I joined the staff of LWT.

Imagine my surprise when the company's personnel wallah solemnly told me I would be 'expected' to joint the appropriate union because, as he said, a single negotiation with an entire shop through its steward and committee made the company's life so much easier than messing about with hundreds of individuals.

The pay was extraordinary and overtime rates were generous to the point of lunacy - but so were the company profits and shareholder dividends.

[Rich80105]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 22:00:29 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net

Post by Tony

Post by Crash
Its today or tomorrow to vote.
In weighing up the options I am not able to identify a credible and
acceptable alternative to National. Instinctively I have always
believed that National are flawed. I favour increased government
spending on education and health in particular and I believe National
has delivered better targeting of where our money is spent for desired
results. I don't believe a tax cut is warranted yet.
The key though is that if not National, who to vote for? Realistically
Labour is the only serious option because all the rest will be
minority parties in a government dominated by National or Labour.
Labour is a political party dominated by Trade Unions. I spent half
my working life with compulsory Union membership. I changed careers
to an industry exempt from compulsory Union membership so I have a
core aversion to any suggestion that we return to any form of
compulsory union membership. However in the past I lived in Mike
Moore's
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Moore_(New_Zealand_politician))
electorate and voted for him in FPP days. I would party vote Labour
if they could produce credible reasons to do this. With Andrew
Little's last-minute resignation prior to the election it was unlikely
that the new leader would have the required credibility and so it has
proved. I am in Ohariu and have the same dilemma with choosing which
candidate to vote for now that Peter Dunne has retired (even more of a
last-minute decision).
Looking at Labour's website and for rejuvenated policies under new
http://www.labour.org.nz/workplacerelations
Scroll down to the bottom - and read 'Fair Pay Agreements' and tell me
how this policy can be enacted without compulsory union membership
being a foundation requirement. That, for me, is a no-go area - I
simply will never vote Labour with a policy like this. National does
not have any policies that for me have no-go status.
National are a known quantity and their flaws are lamentable but
tolerable. Their Parliamentary leaders have been OK if uninspiring.
Labour have finally found a Parliamentary leader who has significant
charisma and voter empathy. Neither she nor the party is ready for
government yet - but 3 years is plenty of time to step up.
--
Crash McBash

Compulsory unionism is for me anathema.
I am a supporter of people being members of a union if they so wish and I am in
favour of employers being expected to reasonably support that choice.
Making someone join one is to me an invasion of privacy and a total disprespect
of the individuals right to make their own choices. It would take us back to
the time when businesses and their staff did not talk, surely that cannot be on
the cards!
I was shocked to read this.
Tony

I am shocked by the extent to which "fake news" is believed by the
gullible - this is an unsupported assertion by Crash, and a
misrepresentation of reality. Still, in this instance the deliberate
false statments are unlikely to sway many gullible voters - or even
any at all . . .

[Tony]

Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 22:00:29 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net

Post by Tony

Post by Crash
Its today or tomorrow to vote.
In weighing up the options I am not able to identify a credible and
acceptable alternative to National. Instinctively I have always
believed that National are flawed. I favour increased government
spending on education and health in particular and I believe National
has delivered better targeting of where our money is spent for desired
results. I don't believe a tax cut is warranted yet.
The key though is that if not National, who to vote for? Realistically
Labour is the only serious option because all the rest will be
minority parties in a government dominated by National or Labour.
Labour is a political party dominated by Trade Unions. I spent half
my working life with compulsory Union membership. I changed careers
to an industry exempt from compulsory Union membership so I have a
core aversion to any suggestion that we return to any form of
compulsory union membership. However in the past I lived in Mike
Moore's
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Moore_(New_Zealand_politician))
electorate and voted for him in FPP days. I would party vote Labour
if they could produce credible reasons to do this. With Andrew
Little's last-minute resignation prior to the election it was unlikely
that the new leader would have the required credibility and so it has
proved. I am in Ohariu and have the same dilemma with choosing which
candidate to vote for now that Peter Dunne has retired (even more of a
last-minute decision).
Looking at Labour's website and for rejuvenated policies under new
http://www.labour.org.nz/workplacerelations
Scroll down to the bottom - and read 'Fair Pay Agreements' and tell me
how this policy can be enacted without compulsory union membership
being a foundation requirement. That, for me, is a no-go area - I
simply will never vote Labour with a policy like this. National does
not have any policies that for me have no-go status.
National are a known quantity and their flaws are lamentable but
tolerable. Their Parliamentary leaders have been OK if uninspiring.
Labour have finally found a Parliamentary leader who has significant
charisma and voter empathy. Neither she nor the party is ready for
government yet - but 3 years is plenty of time to step up.
--
Crash McBash

Compulsory unionism is for me anathema.
I am a supporter of people being members of a union if they so wish and I am in
favour of employers being expected to reasonably support that choice.
Making someone join one is to me an invasion of privacy and a total disprespect
of the individuals right to make their own choices. It would take us back to
the time when businesses and their staff did not talk, surely that cannot be on
the cards!
I was shocked to read this.
Tony

I am shocked by the extent to which "fake news" is believed by the
gullible - this is an unsupported assertion by Crash, and a
misrepresentation of reality. Still, in this instance the deliberate
false statments are unlikely to sway many gullible voters - or even
any at all . . .

The only thing that shocks you is truth, it tends to creep up on you and bite
you!
Tony

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 22:00:29 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net

Post by Tony

Post by Crash
Its today or tomorrow to vote.
In weighing up the options I am not able to identify a credible and
acceptable alternative to National. Instinctively I have always
believed that National are flawed. I favour increased government
spending on education and health in particular and I believe National
has delivered better targeting of where our money is spent for desired
results. I don't believe a tax cut is warranted yet.
The key though is that if not National, who to vote for? Realistically
Labour is the only serious option because all the rest will be
minority parties in a government dominated by National or Labour.
Labour is a political party dominated by Trade Unions. I spent half
my working life with compulsory Union membership. I changed careers
to an industry exempt from compulsory Union membership so I have a
core aversion to any suggestion that we return to any form of
compulsory union membership. However in the past I lived in Mike
Moore's
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Moore_(New_Zealand_politician))
electorate and voted for him in FPP days. I would party vote Labour
if they could produce credible reasons to do this. With Andrew
Little's last-minute resignation prior to the election it was unlikely
that the new leader would have the required credibility and so it has
proved. I am in Ohariu and have the same dilemma with choosing which
candidate to vote for now that Peter Dunne has retired (even more of a
last-minute decision).
Looking at Labour's website and for rejuvenated policies under new
http://www.labour.org.nz/workplacerelations
Scroll down to the bottom - and read 'Fair Pay Agreements' and tell me
how this policy can be enacted without compulsory union membership
being a foundation requirement. That, for me, is a no-go area - I
simply will never vote Labour with a policy like this. National does
not have any policies that for me have no-go status.
National are a known quantity and their flaws are lamentable but
tolerable. Their Parliamentary leaders have been OK if uninspiring.
Labour have finally found a Parliamentary leader who has significant
charisma and voter empathy. Neither she nor the party is ready for
government yet - but 3 years is plenty of time to step up.
--
Crash McBash

Compulsory unionism is for me anathema.
I am a supporter of people being members of a union if they so wish and I am in
favour of employers being expected to reasonably support that choice.
Making someone join one is to me an invasion of privacy and a total disprespect
of the individuals right to make their own choices. It would take us back to
the time when businesses and their staff did not talk, surely that cannot be on
the cards!
I was shocked to read this.
Tony

I am shocked by the extent to which "fake news" is believed by the
gullible - this is an unsupported assertion by Crash, and a
misrepresentation of reality. Still, in this instance the deliberate
false statments are unlikely to sway many gullible voters - or even
any at all . . .

Crash's post is, I think, a reasoned, sober view that will find reasoned, sober accord amongst those not so blinkered as to cleave doggedly to their own prejudiced view. It may have its flaws, but it gets to the nub of the topic, and that's what counts.

The early voting numbers have broken all records. Whether this heralds a harbinger of change, or a panic reaction to the risk of change, we shall know in but a matter of hours.

A personable and articulate upstart has set New Zealand politics alight by challenging the dull, predictable blokeishness of the governing party; and in a democracy that's apathetic at best when it comes to who's running the show, that can only be a good thing.

[Pooh]

Post by Rich80105
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 22:00:29 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net

Post by Tony

Post by Crash
Its today or tomorrow to vote.
In weighing up the options I am not able to identify a credible and
acceptable alternative to National. Instinctively I have always
believed that National are flawed. I favour increased government
spending on education and health in particular and I believe National
has delivered better targeting of where our money is spent for desired
results. I don't believe a tax cut is warranted yet.
The key though is that if not National, who to vote for? Realistically
Labour is the only serious option because all the rest will be
minority parties in a government dominated by National or Labour.
Labour is a political party dominated by Trade Unions. I spent half
my working life with compulsory Union membership. I changed careers
to an industry exempt from compulsory Union membership so I have a
core aversion to any suggestion that we return to any form of
compulsory union membership. However in the past I lived in Mike
Moore's
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Moore_(New_Zealand_politician))
electorate and voted for him in FPP days. I would party vote Labour
if they could produce credible reasons to do this. With Andrew
Little's last-minute resignation prior to the election it was unlikely
that the new leader would have the required credibility and so it has
proved. I am in Ohariu and have the same dilemma with choosing which
candidate to vote for now that Peter Dunne has retired (even more of a
last-minute decision).
Looking at Labour's website and for rejuvenated policies under new
http://www.labour.org.nz/workplacerelations
Scroll down to the bottom - and read 'Fair Pay Agreements' and tell me
how this policy can be enacted without compulsory union membership
being a foundation requirement. That, for me, is a no-go area - I
simply will never vote Labour with a policy like this. National does
not have any policies that for me have no-go status.
National are a known quantity and their flaws are lamentable but
tolerable. Their Parliamentary leaders have been OK if uninspiring.
Labour have finally found a Parliamentary leader who has significant
charisma and voter empathy. Neither she nor the party is ready for
government yet - but 3 years is plenty of time to step up.
--
Crash McBash

Compulsory unionism is for me anathema.
I am a supporter of people being members of a union if they so wish and I am in
favour of employers being expected to reasonably support that choice.
Making someone join one is to me an invasion of privacy and a total disprespect
of the individuals right to make their own choices. It would take us back to
the time when businesses and their staff did not talk, surely that cannot be on
the cards!
I was shocked to read this.
Tony

I am shocked by the extent to which "fake news" is believed by the
gullible - this is an unsupported assertion by Crash, and a
misrepresentation of reality. Still, in this instance the deliberate
false statments are unlikely to sway many gullible voters - or even
any at all . . .

So why do you keep pushing 'fake' news as fact Rich? When it comes to
gullibility you display the typical non-comprehension of so many on the
left.

So can you explain how Labours 'Fair Pay Agreements' can be achieved
without compulsory unionism. apart from which thanks to your inability
to remember what happened two minutes ago you can't remember how many
times Labour has talked about a return to compulsory unionism. something
Labours union masters are desperate to have return to New Zealand.

Pooh

Pooh

[Gordon]

Post by Crash
Labour have finally found a Parliamentary leader who has significant
charisma and voter empathy. Neither she nor the party is ready for
government yet - but 3 years is plenty of time to step up.

In the meantime they can be an effective oppostion, which in itself will do
the country no harm.

[Pooh]

Post by Gordon

Post by Crash
Labour have finally found a Parliamentary leader who has significant
charisma and voter empathy. Neither she nor the party is ready for
government yet - but 3 years is plenty of time to step up.

In the meantime they can be an effective oppostion, which in itself will do
the country no harm.

Yup and long overdue.

Pooh